No, we won't even mention that drag racers prefer humid weather. He wouldn't believe us if we tried.

I stick with 30 A.W.G. for interconnects. I see no need for anything thicker in this application though depending on how you do the construction, the thinner guage will make the cable more fragile. Extend a bit of the tape into the RCA and this should give some welcome strength to the connection. As far as speaker cables go, I had used a set made from the 26 A.W.G. cable included in the RS magnet wire package (it also has a roll of 18 A.W.G.) simply because at one point I was moving one speaker in and out each time I listened. The thinner wire is not very sturdy. This situation has changed now with the swap to the Zigmahornets (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/zigmahornet/zigmahornet.html) - no comments needed or requested, dup. I have the drivers hardwired to the amps with the 30 guage cable. The difference between the 30 and 26 guage wire in the systems where I've tried both? Not much but noticeable. It is so cheap you can try both. The most difficult thing about this cable is removing the lacquer from the very thin wire. A sharp razor knife should do the trick and check for continuity from end to end with a VOM.

The friend with the Carver amp and Gallos speakers did take a double run of 18 A.W.G. for the run from the Gallos "sub"(?) amp to the second voice coil of the speaker's woofers. We both agreed that if current handling was required, this would be the spot for more copper. He is running the silver wires to the rest of the speaker but had begun with the 30 A.W.G. for this connection which runs full range, according to him, down to approximately a 40Hz cutoff.

My opinion on this thin cable approach is to be open to what might happen in any system. It might not work as well in a full range system with a difficult load speaker such as a Theil. In fact, I wouldn't expect it to, but I've never tried that set up either. I would think it would be well suited to speakers such as Magneplanars and standmounted bookshelves that don't require extreme amounts of current. In systems with more sensible speaker loads I'd be interested to hear what results are obtained. Somewhat like the Home Depot extension cables as speaker wires, the "sound" of the thin guage cables is essentially that the signal is just not screwed with and exotic cables can tend to sound like tone controls. However, unlike the HD cables, which can have slight sins of ommission, the thin cables don't seem to add or subtract anything from any set up I've heard them in. Try the cable with just two solid core wires for each channel for speakers and one + wire if you can do so on the ic's with a separate ground to chassis. Keep the + & - legs separated as far apart as possible to minimze capacitance and inductance, about 4" should be OK.

I've run thin cables with stranded wires and thought they sounded horrible. Solid core makes a difference here.

Drumguy, when checking for chassis grounds on the RCA's you should obviously be on the diode check or preerrably the continuity check of your meter. With the continuity check, it should be obvious whether the RCA's are common grounded to the chassis. In the diode check function, touch the two probes together and observe the reading, if the reading you obtain from the chassis to RCA outer sleeve, or RCA sleeve to RCA sleeve, is distinctly different than this, I would just run a typical two wire ic. (In unbalanced RCA connections, I can think of very few components that do not have a common ground for all the RCA plugs.) In this case I do use a touch of silver solder on the ground/neutral side since it's very hard to adequately crimp down on a 30 A.W.G. cable. Always check for continuity and shorts when you're done.

The RS solderless RCA's are easy to solder if need be. Buy an extra pair of right angle RCA's since I've had some that won't allow a decent screw connection on the center pin or the screw is missing. As with the thin cables, the solderless RCA's sound unscrewed with (no pun intended). Keep the cables as short as possible and always begin with the volume control down in case of RF or EM pickup, no shield means the cables must be dressed well.

I promise nothing but these cables are incredibly easy to make and try and you've certainly wasted more money on at least one crappy CD.

JA, what great restraint you show by not posting to these threads. Amplifier manufacturers go to great lengths to have low amplifier/source impedence to minimize amplifier/speaker interaction. This effect is shown in Stereophiles test report data. Using a single small conductor to feed a high current load will cause a reduction in damping factor, a loss in power transfer to the speaker and an increase in frequency response variation to the load (speaker). If this sounds better, then there is something else that we are missing. How can low voltage drop and good current transfer be a bad thing?

Quote:
Amplifier manufacturers go to great lengths to have low amplifier/source impedence to minimize amplifier/speaker interaction. This effect is shown in Stereophiles test report data. Using a single small conductor to feed a high current load will cause a reduction in damping factor, a loss in power transfer to the speaker and an increase in frequency response variation to the load (speaker). If this sounds better, then there is something else that we are missing. How can low voltage drop and good current transfer be a bad thing?

You are, of course, correct. But when it comes to matters of preference in specific system contexts, it is difficult to make a general rule. Martin Colloms wrote about this topic in Stereophile back in 1995: see www.stereophile.com/features/127, specifically the second page onward, where he experimented with placing a series resistor between the output of a solid-state amplifier and a loudspeaker.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

I am thinking of trying to use copper water pipe instead of speaker wire. Since we all know that electricity travels just on the outside surface of a conductor at high frequencies (like 20KHz), so why waste space with a solid conductor? Then I would either purge the center of the tubing and run it in a vacuum or use some exotic gas. Testing will determin. But at what pressure? Maybe a liquid would sound better. Does anybody know if you can buy copper tubing in oxygen free?

All amp and speaker makers I've ever used or read insttuctions for with, gave wire ga sizes based on length, etc. Never ever had anything of 30ga...it's INSANE!!!! Bogus, absolute nonsense. Anything under 18 gauge for any type of high quality setup is bizzare. Most high end use at least start at 16 guage, mostly 12-10gauge for anything with an amplifier that has any kind of power for realism. I ain't talking bout some 8w useless tube thing that some body pawns off for $40,000, and convinces somebody this is high end. Even my HTIB came with wires that are much thicker than 30 ga. You gots to be joking on this 30 ga stuff, seeing how many people you can fool, it's a joke right?

Quote:
Most high end use at least start at 16 guage, mostly 12-10gauge for anything with an amplifier that has any kind of power for realism.

What in the world do the habits of "high end" matter to you, dup? You deride everything the high end does, particularly in cables. So, it would seem rather odd for you to fall back on the conventions and believes of the "high end" just to say something can't work when you don't believe anything the high end suggests in cables can work. Apparently, the high end is your friend and ally when needed.

This is no joke, Gentlemen. I said I offer no guarantees of results but the price of admission is low and there is no danger I can see to giving this a try unless you are extremely clumsy. Obviously, common sense should apply and you should know how to use a VOM. The systems I deal with are not typical of Stereophile readers's gear, so what I use may not be of any value to you. On the other hand, you might find something interesting.

I would like someone to indicate how 10 A.W.G. or any equivalent "audiophile approved" guage of cable is required to handle the current requirements of a sensible speaker and amplifier combination at audio frequencies using dymanic source material and how in this case, the heavier guage cable can provide a benefit to the sound quality. After a while in an 8' run of cable, the value of the lower impedance gained by use of the heavier guage cable will be lost, particularly if you are running a typical solid state, direct coupled amplifier and a resonable speaker load. If you balk at 30 A.W.G. cable, the $5 package of RS magnet wire contains both 26 and 18 A.W.G. wires as well.

I think I understand amplifier output impedance, speaker load and damping factor well enough to say the results of this wire used as speaker cable will have negligible effects on most well designed amplifiers when the cables are kept to a minimum run length if the speaker load is reasonable. I appreciate the article you linked to, John, but I don't believe 8' of 30 A.W.G. cable will amount to the equivalent of a 3.3 Ohm resistor inserted between the amp and speaker. Nor would I suggest this as a suitable choice in cable for a speaker such as The Watt which is far from a simple load for any amplifier. This though would bring into question why such difficult loads are designed when the result is a 1% efficient system, but that is another matter all together.

Does the use of 30 A.W.G. cable influence the frequency response of the final sound? Possibly. Probably. How much is the question and in what ways. I can't say and I doubt it would matter since this will be a function of speaker load against amplifier output impedance and will vary with each system and in some cases with level. I would argue that flat frequency response is not generally what we want in our listening rooms and to say this cable will result in frequency response errors is rather overlooking quite a bit that actually occurs within our listening rooms. Look at the frequency response of the Wilson Maxx II. It is far from flat and yet is considered a reference quality speaker. How many speakers have been measured by Stereophile to be flat response? How many of you believe your speakers would measure flat in your own listening room? How many of you have taken the time to do acoustic treatments to your listening room? If not, then I suspect the bit of impedance added by these cables will be quite minor in the final results you hear from your average "audiophile" speaker in a typical listening room. I certainly suspect the "difference" these cables make to the overall frequency response and damping factor of the system will result in less variance in sound quality as there would be between most Stereophile reader's indivudual systems. Gentlemen, "accuracy" is something we only practice in theory and flat frequency response does not sound good in a home listening system.

You have anecdotal evidence from several sources which suggest this is worth trying. I can't speak for the others but I hear live, unamplified music several times a month and this cable, in the systems where I've seen it employed, brings the sound closer to what I hear live than any other cable I can afford and certainly makes me rethink what sort of diminishing returns can be had by spending large sums on cables. I am not downplaying the value of high end cables by any means. I'm just saying these thin cables work for me and for a friend in systems that are very dissimilar though no completely average. The final sound is something that has impressed more than one listener familiar with live music. What do you have to loose by trying? $10 max. How much do you have invested in the cables that sit unused in your closet?

While I realize that our current measurements don't tell the complete story, I do know that if something fails in any of the measureable basic specs, that things can only get worse from there.
From the following chart,
30awg 1ohm/10ft about 10 times the output impedence of a SS amplifier and about equal to 12% of the value of an 8ohm speaker load. Pretty significant numbers.
Max current for internal wiring 0.86A.
Max current for power transmission 0.142A.

12AWG 0.015ohms/10ft. A factor of one tenth the output impedence of a SS amplifier. Much better. 0.2% of the speaker load. Insignificant.
Max current internal, 41A.
Max current for power transmission 9.2A.
If one prefers a more distorted signal to a more pure signal then what the hell are we doing?

The following chart is a guideline of ampacity or copper wire current carrying capacity following the Handbook of Electronic Tables and Formulas for American Wire Gauge. As you might guess, the rated ampacities are just a rule of thumb. In careful engineering the insulation temperature limit, thickness, thermal conductivity, and air convection and temperature should all be taken into account. The Maximum Amps for Power Transmission uses the 700 circular mils per amp rule, which is very very conservative. The Maximum Amps for Chassis Wiring is also a conservative rating, but is meant for wiring in air, and not in a bundle. For short lengths of wire, such as is used in battery packs you should trade off the resistance and load with size, weight, and flexibility.
AWG gauge Diameter Inches Diameter mm Ohms per 1000 ft Ohms per km Maximum amps for chassis wiring Maximum amps for
power transmission Maximum freqency for
100% skin depth for solid conductor copper
OOOO 0.46 11.684 0.049 0.16072 380 302 125 Hz
OOO 0.4096 10.40384 0.0618 0.202704 328 239 160 Hz
OO 0.3648 9.26592 0.0779 0.255512 283 190 200 Hz
0 0.3249 8.25246 0.0983 0.322424 245 150 250 Hz
1 0.2893 7.34822 0.1239 0.406392 211 119 325 Hz
2 0.2576 6.54304 0.1563 0.512664 181 94 410 Hz
3 0.2294 5.82676 0.197 0.64616 158 75 500 Hz
4 0.2043 5.18922 0.2485 0.81508 135 60 650 Hz
5 0.1819 4.62026 0.3133 1.027624 118 47 810 Hz
6 0.162 4.1148 0.3951 1.295928 101 37 1100 Hz
7 0.1443 3.66522 0.4982 1.634096 89 30 1300 Hz
8 0.1285 3.2639 0.6282 2.060496 73 24 1650 Hz
9 0.1144 2.90576 0.7921 2.598088 64 19 2050 Hz
10 0.1019 2.58826 0.9989 3.276392 55 15 2600 Hz
11 0.0907 2.30378 1.26 4.1328 47 12 3200 Hz
12 0.0808 2.05232 1.588 5.20864 41 9.3 4150 Hz
13 0.072 1.8288 2.003 6.56984 35 7.4 5300 Hz
14 0.0641 1.62814 2.525 8.282 32 5.9 6700 Hz
15 0.0571 1.45034 3.184 10.44352 28 4.7 8250 Hz
16 0.0508 1.29032 4.016 13.17248 22 3.7 11 k Hz
17 0.0453 1.15062 5.064 16.60992 19 2.9 13 k Hz
18 0.0403 1.02362 6.385 20.9428 16 2.3 17 kHz
19 0.0359 0.91186 8.051 26.40728 14 1.8 21 kHz
20 0.032 0.8128 10.15 33.292 11 1.5 27 kHz
21 0.0285 0.7239 12.8 41.984 9 1.2 33 kHz
22 0.0254 0.64516 16.14 52.9392 7 0.92 42 kHz
23 0.0226 0.57404 20.36 66.7808 4.7 0.729 53 kHz
24 0.0201 0.51054 25.67 84.1976 3.5 0.577 68 kHz
25 0.0179 0.45466 32.37 106.1736 2.7 0.457 85 kHz
26 0.0159 0.40386 40.81 133.8568 2.2 0.361 107 kH
27 0.0142 0.36068 51.47 168.8216 1.7 0.288 130 kHz
28 0.0126 0.32004 64.9 212.872 1.4 0.226 170 kHz
29 0.0113 0.28702 81.83 268.4024 1.2 0.182 210 kHz
30 0.01 0.254 103.2 338.496 0.86 0.142 270 kHz
31 0.0089 0.22606 130.1 426.728 0.7 0.113 340 kHz
32 0.008 0.2032 164.1 538.248 0.53 0.091 430 kHz
Metric 2.0 0.00787 0.200 169.39 555.61 0.51 0.088 440 kHz
33 0.0071 0.18034 206.9 678.632 0.43 0.072 540 kHz
Metric 1.8 0.00709 0.180 207.5 680.55 0.43 0.072 540 kHz
34 0.0063 0.16002 260.9 855.752 0.33 0.056 690 kHz
Metric 1.6 0.0063 0.16002 260.9 855.752 0.33 0.056 690 kHz
35 0.0056 0.14224 329 1079.12 0.27 0.044 870 kHz
Metric 1.4 .00551 .140 339 1114 0.26 0.043 900 kHz
36 0.005 0.127 414.8 1360 0.21 0.035 1100 kHz
Metric 1.25 .00492 0.125 428.2 1404 0.20 0.034 1150 kHz
37 0.0045 0.1143 523.1 1715 0.17 0.0289 1350 kHz
Metric 1.12 .00441 0.112 533.8 1750 0.163 0.0277 1400 kHz
38 0.004 0.1016 659.6 2163 0.13 0.0228 1750 kHz
Metric 1 .00394 0.1000 670.2 2198 0.126 0.0225 1750 kHz
39 0.0035 0.0889 831.8 2728 0.11 0.0175 2250 kHz
40 0.0031 0.07874 1049 3440 0.09 0.0137 2900 kHz

Sorry about the formatting or lack of.

Yep, it was the formatting that confused me.

Am I confused or do the amperage ratings of your theoretical 30 A.W.G. wire need to be considered over time combined with voltage into a load value. If so, can you tell me how those amperage ratings would change when we are using the wire into an 8 Ohm load at typical home audio voltages playing a dynamic signal? I'm not trying to be smart here but the signals we are dealing with in a consumer audio system where average "power" used might be under 10 watts are significantly different than the spec'd conditions I have found for 30 guage wire. Additionally, all the specs I've found are for constant power applications and not for the sort of fluctuating voltage and current an audio system will produce.

As to resistance, (we are talking DC resistance, right? And it's important how?) it is a simple number that leaves much to be desired when the cable will be used in an application where frequency covers a wide range. The output impedance of your amplifier will change with frequency so what does that tell us about resistance alone? And, is 1 Ohm output impedance so bad? Most well designed transformer coupled amplifiers will have an output impedance spec'd around this value and it will be quite a bit higher at certain frequencies. Does that make an Audio Research tube amplifier undesireable? Would you turn it down if offered? If not, you'll have to make a better point regarding resistance, ... er, sorry, impedance.

Let me point out that resistance is not, of course, impedance. Amplifiers prefer to run into a resistive load. If you construct these cables as I've outlined, you should have virtually insignificant C & L values. What is the trade off against typical twisted pair or parallel leg cables where the capacitance and/or inductance will be significantly higher in those cables? Which do you think your amplifier would be happier with; R, C or L? The magnet wire has no dielectric to speak of. Shall we debate the merits of PVC vs. Teflon dielectrics? Grain structure of a 12 A.W.G. cable vs. a 30 A.W.G.? Anyone consider "skin effect" when you bought those thick cables?

We are discussing these values as if they are the only concerns in the circuit between the amplifier and speaker. If you are using a multidriver speaker system, do you think there isn't a bit of 26-30 A.W.G. magnet wire somewhere in your speaker? I agree that years ago had someone suggested running 30 A.W.G. cables, I wouldn't have even considered the idea. But as I began seeing more and more speakers that presented more amd more difficult loads to the amplifier, my opinions changed a bit. Does it make sense to run an amplifier into a low impedance load where the numerous caps and coils in the crossover result in a 45 degree electrical phase shift at 2 Ohms? To me that makes less sense than adding 1 Ohm of resistance between my amp and speakers. I remember a Theil speaker ad that ran in Stereophile which bragged of the twenty two crossover components used. Twenty two?! How much power loss do you think there was in that crossover vs. 8' of thin wire? It sucked power like a Washington, D.C. hooker. So, what are we really discussing here? Resistance to change? (No pun intened.)

For one thing, I believe we're arguing without all the facts present.

Let me remind you RS's 18 A.W.G. hookup wire is still listed as a recommended component. If you just can't see your way to using the thinnest cable, try something a bit thicker in the magnet wire constructed as I've suggested. If you don't like the sound, I have no complaints; I'm not married to this. But, so far, the main objection seems to be on a "technical" basis - though I'm not certain the numbers being presented are relevant to the use we intend.

However, ...

If you tell me you chose your cables on the basis of their specs, I'll accept that you are not a good candidate for thin cables. If you weighed out the R, C, L of your cables against the output impedance of your amplifier and factored in the load of your speakers before making a purchase, don't try these cables. If you considered the back EMF of the speaker you own before auditioning it in order to maintain a perfect damping factor, don't try these cables. If you know the amount of negative feedback (global and/or local) in your amplifier off the top of your head, don't bother with these cables.

If you bought your cables, amplifier or speakers for any reason other than technical measurements, what was it? The sound you heard? Then you probably bought a tone control of some sort. If not, what made your cable better than the one you didn't buy or the cable you already had? If you listen to vinyl, do you not think your tonearm is a tone control? The platter? The main bearing? If you listen to "perfect sound" CD's, where players measure essentially similar for frequency response, what was your justification for a better player? Specs?

We are discussing these cables as if there were a "perfect" cable. We are ignoring three hundred cable companies with broad and diverse lines that stretch across wide price ranges. Each designer has their own concept of the "perfect" cable. Can someone tell me what the perfect cable is? Does it have low capacitance? Low inductance? Reasonable resistance for the task? Low dielectric constant?

If you want to debunk this idea based upon technical merit, tell me what is not technically correct with the cables you use. No cable is perfect, so where do your's fail?

Quote:
Am I confused or do the amperage ratings of your theoretical 30 A.W.G. wire need to be considered over time combined with voltage into a load value. If so, can you tell me how those amperage ratings would change when we are using the wire into an 8 Ohm load at typical home audio voltages playing a dynamic signal? I'm not trying to be smart here but the signals we are dealing with in a consumer audio system where average "power" used might be under 10 watts are significantly different than the spec'd conditions I have found for 30 guage wire. Additionally, all the specs I've found are for constant power applications and not for the sort of fluctuating voltage and current an audio system will produce.

Yes, I agree that the specs that I used are based on continuous signals. Real life music signals will provide a margin over these numbers, but the basic numbers still point out that 30ga wire is way undersized.

Quote:
As to resistance, (we are talking DC resistance, right? And it's important how?) it is a simple number that leaves much to be desired when the cable will be used in an application where frequency covers a wide range. The output impedance of your amplifier will change with frequency so what does that tell us about resistance alone? And, is 1 Ohm output impedance so bad? Most well designed transformer coupled amplifiers will have an output impedance spec'd around this value and it will be quite a bit higher at certain frequencies. Does that make an Audio Research tube amplifier undesireable? Would you turn it down if offered? If not, you'll have to make a better point regarding resistance, ... er, sorry, impedance.

Resistance doesn't care about DC or AC, it's the same.
Impedance does care about DC or AC current.
A 1 ohm resistance in a speaker cable connected to a solid state amp is ten times the output impedance of the amp.
Even when connected to a tube amp with a 1 ohm output it is significant, being an equal value.

Quote:
Let me point out that resistance is not, of course, impedance. Amplifiers prefer to run into a resistive load. If you construct these cables as I've outlined, you should have virtually insignificant C & L values. What is the trade off against typical twisted pair or parallel leg cables where the capacitance and/or inductance will be significantly higher in those cables? Which do you think your amplifier would be happier with; R, C or L? The magnet wire has no dielectric to speak of. Shall we debate the merits of PVC vs. Teflon dielectrics? Grain structure of a 12 A.W.G. cable vs. a 30 A.W.G.? Anyone consider "skin effect" when you bought those thick cables?

And if you figure the effects of the L and C values of any normal cable at audio frequencies relative to source and load impedances it will prove to be insignificant. At 20KHz skin effect is not even close to being a factor.

Quote:

If you are using a multidriver speaker system, do you think there isn't a bit of 26-30 A.W.G. magnet wire somewhere in your speaker? I agree that years ago had someone suggested running 30 A.W.G. cables, I wouldn't have even considered the idea. But as I began seeing more and more speakers that presented more amd more difficult loads to the amplifier, my opinions changed a bit. Does it make sense to run an amplifier into a low impedance load where the numerous caps and coils in the crossover result in a 45 degree electrical phase shift at 2 Ohms? To me that makes less sense than adding 1 Ohm of resistance between my amp and speakers. I remember a Theil speaker ad that ran in Stereophile which bragged of the twenty two crossover components used. Twenty two?! How much power loss do you think there was in that crossover vs. 8' of thin wire? It sucked power like a Washington, D.C. hooker. So, what are we really discussing here? Resistance to change? (No pun intened.)

The length of the wire makes a difference also. Not a good idea for longer runs like speaker cables.
And as the impedance of the load decreases, the resistance of the speaker wire becomes more significant not less.

Specs aren't the total story, but if something can't even measure up to some basic laws of physics then it is wrong.

A $300 Yamaha ht receiver measures better than my tube amplifiers in almost every respect. 600 watts must be better than six. A direct drive Denon turntable has better speed stability and lower rumble than my VPI. A shure M95 tracks a higher velocity modulation at a lower down force than my cartridge.

You know the drill.

It's hard to think we're dismissing an idea due to measurements. That cheap ht receiver has a lower output impedance than my tube amps, so should I disregrard what I hear from the tubes? The Yamaha might actually have a higher current capacity than my tubes. Surely a five way speaker must sound better than my single driver or BBC minimonitor.

On paper I must be a fool. I believe what I hear.

I can only assume, cyclebrain, that you did pick your cables after comparing specs. Anyone else do the same?

Quote:
And if you figure the effects of the L and C values of any normal cable at audio frequencies relative to source and load impedances it will prove to be insignificant. At 20KHz skin effect is not even close to being a factor.

Many cable designers would disagree with the latter statement. Many amplifier owners whose equipment fried after attaching high capacitance speaker cables would disagree with the former. But, on paper, you appear to be correct.

Can you provide these specs for me? Just how much current does a speaker draw from an amplifier? And when is the output impdeance of the amplifier too high? What is the thinnest speaker cable I can use?

Quote:
I am thinking of trying to use copper water pipe instead of speaker wire. Since we all know that electricity travels just on the outside surface of a conductor at high frequencies (like 20KHz), so why waste space with a solid conductor?

This is routine in radio work, for example the very long (expensive) wire from an FM transmitter all the way up to the antenna atop a 200 foot tower. But at 20 KHz it's not necessary because very little current flows only on the outer surface. You need to get up a lot higher in frequency before tubing makes sense. Also, forget oxygen-free anything. It makes no difference, except maybe to the bank accounts of those who sell it.

--Ethan

For audio mostly DC resistance of teh speaker wire, not c or L. Dealing with audio freqs. DC resistnace is what effects teh amps damping factor which will effect CONTROL of teh woofers mostly and it does affect teh sound. If wooly ill defined bass is what you consider hi end hi fi....fine. I like to hear deeeeep bass and detailed notes, it's possible, when done right. Stone Pony last nite is an example of it done WRONG. Though Lez Zeppelin where very very good musicans. Boomy bss from the house system. Whomp Whomp and it's all SS. I get my wire advice from teh maker of teh best speakers out there priced for mortals. Bill d. said don't worry about C and L...DC resistance matters. He's right of course. 30 ga speaker wire is retarded to put it bluntly, HTIB box don't even go that poor.

6 watt amplifer? that can't make anything near a realistic reproduction of sound, can't can't can't don't matter how efficient teh speakers are, how Class A it all is. There is nothing there to move teh woofers while trying to keeps teh mids and highs natural. can't do it.clock radios have more kick with an amplifer on a chip.

Just how willfully ignorant do you intend to prove you are, dup?

Have NEVER heard anything aproaching anything lifelike from anything that is 6W. It's impossible, unless you think clipped distorted sound is lifelike? Or thinking tube distortion is reproduction as opposed to producing the sound as used in guitar amps, where they want the overdriven saturated sound. During playback not for me. I've heard 30W guitar amps fill a room, sure, it's not gonna do it to reproduce the entire band, drums bass etc. 6 w is a table radio. Even powering the most efficent horns etc, it's impossible, unless listening to levels which are un realistic, background sound. Then there is the effects of high distorion added to it all. Under powered, over driven 6 w, that's not realism, that's a blur. 6W ain't keeping bass detail note separation, with sparkling highs with clear, lifelike midrange.... What do you do that with at 6 w? This I have to hear about...At what levels, take a SPL reading.

Quote:

This is routine in radio work, for example the very long (expensive) wire from an FM transmitter all the way up to the antenna atop a 200 foot tower. But at 20 KHz it's not necessary because very little current flows only on the outer surface. You need to get up a lot higher in frequency before tubing makes sense. Also, forget oxygen-free anything. It makes no difference, except maybe to the bank accounts of those who sell it.

--Ethan

Or I could take extreme interconnects one step further and connect the output of my amp to a frequency upconverter (GHz range)then use gold plated waveguide to my speakers.
Then down convert the rf back down to audio. Way cool stuff.

I don't have a SPL meter, dup. I don't need one to tell me the system is working as planned. I can assure you the system is loud, clear and tuneful. It's a matter of system matching so you don't have to blow fuses to get deeeep bass and "sparkling" highs. Not too hard when you know how. I'll recommend a good system for you if you'd like.

Quote:
And if you figure the effects of the L and C values of any normal cable at audio frequencies relative to source and load impedances it will prove to be insignificant. At 20KHz skin effect is not even close to being a factor.

Shall we discuss what makes a difference in cable sound? If only R counts, then why all the fuss over cables? It seems fairly simple to make a low R cable. And once you've lowered the resistance to a point where the length is adequately compensated by gauge, there should be no other component to consider, if C and L don't matter at audio frequencies. Construction of the cable should make no difference if lowering C or L doesn't matter. So why do companies such as Belden, who sell to the "pros", make twisted pair cables?

This question obviously isn't for those who feel cable is cable (which lets you rest for awhile, dup, there's no need to contribute your dupfacts on cables); but, for those who hear improvements with cables and own something more exotic than 10 gauge zip cord, what factors do you think make the difference between cables - both ic's and speaker cables?

Quote:
It's hard to think we're dismissing an idea due to measurements. That cheap ht receiver has a lower output impedance than my tube amps, so should I disregrard what I hear from the tubes? The Yamaha might actually have a higher current capacity than my tubes. Surely a five way speaker must sound better than my single driver or BBC minimonitor.
[/qoute]

First, thanks for keeping our disagreements civil.
You are misinterpeting my using technical data as meaning that I rate and judge everything based on measure data.
.005% distortion is better than .01% distortion.
Not at all so. Keep it under 1% and I'm happy with that.
High output impeadance bad? Maybe, depends on the speaker load. That's a system based issue.
Yes, I look at measured data, but at the same time I use that information as a guideline as part of a much bigger picture. Super low distortion? Obtained by massive negative feedback at the expense of transient performance? No thanks.
And the multi driver does have some advantages it also has many negatives. All backed up by science.

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I can only assume, cyclebrain, that you did pick your cables after comparing specs. Anyone else do the same?

Actually I built my own after calculating that many of values of the wire I am using had many orders of magnitude values smaller than the equipment I was using it with.
I guess that my main consideration when dealing with measured data is not "what is the absolute value" but "how does the value relate to the interfaces that it connects to".

Not that it means that I know it all by any means, but my day job is with a major defense company as a senior systems integration and test engineer dealing with airborn Synthetic Aperture Radar. I deal with interconnect issues every day. Knowing how to determine what factors have the greatest influence and which are insignificant is key.
And sometimes I'm wrong.

[qoute]
Many cable designers would disagree with the latter statement. Many amplifier owners whose equipment fried after attaching high capacitance speaker cables would disagree with the former. But, on paper, you appear to be correct.[/Quote]

I have not heard about this. Do you have more information?
I would be interested in the reason.

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Can you provide these specs for me? Just how much current does a speaker draw from an amplifier? And when is the output impdeance of the amplifier too high? What is the thinnest speaker cable I can use?

I see what your are doing here. And I hope that I have made clear to you that there are not usually an absolute value that can be assigned to a spec. The value must be looked at in the proper context.
1) The current drawn by your speaker is the applied voltage divided by the resistive value of your speaker. approximately. The reactive value really messes things up.
2) The output impeadance of an amplifier is to high when used with a speaker load that causes a variation in frequency response that YOU find unacceptable.
3) Is the question "the thinnest you CAN use" or "the thinnest you SHOULD use"? I would suggest using a zero ohm, zero capacitance wire. If not avialable use the closest you can find.

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Actually I built my own after calculating that many of values of the wire I am using had many orders of magnitude values smaller than the equipment I was using it with.

Then I'd be interested in what you built. I don't understand what you mean by "many orders of magnitude values smaller than the equipment I was using it with."

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And the multi driver does have some advantages it also has many negatives.

Agreed. I'm dismayed at the number of designs that exhibit so many of the negatives in such dramatic fashion. To me it seems audio has often lost its way to communicating music simply and effectively. Wilson Watts still strike me as being more about what the speaker - and the amplifier driving them - can do than what the musicians can manage.

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I have not heard about this. Do you have more information?
I would be interested in the reason.

You mean amps blowing up? They were driven into oscillation by the high capacitance of the load. Which amps? Which cables? Sorry, no excuse, but I can't remember which. This was back in the 1980's - early 90's when we were heavily into the amp of the month and there were fewer cable companies who were all trying to set themself apart from the rest. Seems quite a few cables were high capacitance back then, trying to tame solid state nasties. The amps were often unstable, able to pass DC and eventually the companies went under. Seems like I remember Eagle amps didn't like MIT cables but I could be wrong. Of course, it depended on the speaker load but these were also the days of Apogee Scintillas at 1 Ohm. Possibly someone with a better memory of the incidents could help.

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The value must be looked at in the proper context.

And here I believe I have. My amps are not high current designs and my single driver speakers are consistent in their simple load with no caps in a crossover (no crossover) and low inductance in the voice coil. No reactive load here. The main speakers are crossed to a subwoofer at 40Hz. The 3/5a's are very friendly to amplifiers.

I don't want anyone to think this will work in all cases. I've stated my system is not typical of most Stereophile readers and it would be ludicrous to use 30 A.W.G. cables with a speaker that is internally wired with 10 Gauge cable or presents a difficult load to the amplifier.

However, if your speakers are a simple load and you don't use your amp to jump start your Hummer, I would appreciate feedback from anyone who trys this cable. Curiousity only. Until I can find that zero Ohm cable, this will do for me in my system.

Any comments on the 30 gauge ic's?

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And here I believe I have. My amps are not high current designs and my single driver speakers are consistent in their simple load with no caps in a crossover (no crossover) and low inductance in the voice coil. No reactive load here. The main speakers are crossed to a subwoofer at 40Hz. The 3/5a's are very friendly to amplifiers. [/qoute]

You know the inductive value of your speaker is low? Not something that is usually known.
A wideband single driver? Solves many problems, but has many of it's own.

I don't want anyone to think this will work in all cases. I've stated my system is not typical of most Stereophile readers and it would be ludicrous to use 30 A.W.G. cables with a speaker that is internally wired with 10 Gauge cable or presents a difficult load to the amplifier.

However, if your speakers are a simple load and you don't use your amp to jump start your Hummer, I would appreciate feedback from anyone who trys this cable. Curiousity only. Until I can find that zero Ohm cable, this will do for me in my system.

Any comments on the 30 gauge ic's?

Hi Jan,Unless you've seen them already, I have a couple of photos posted in the DIY gallery (pg.2)As you can see by the pics, the +ve & -ve wires of the ICs are only 8-10 mm apart-I can detect no unwanted noise, hum etc coming through the speakers when no music signal is present-did you say you have your wires 4" apart? Maybe I just live in a low RF area here in Oz?
Michael...

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Hi Jan,Unless you've seen them already, I have a couple of photos posted in the DIY gallery (pg.2)As you can see by the pics, the +ve & -ve wires of the ICs are only 8-10 mm apart-I can detect no unwanted noise, hum etc coming through the speakers when no music signal is present-did you say you have your wires 4" apart? Maybe I just live in a low RF area here in Oz?
Michael...

So what if your speaker wires pick up RF? Your speakers can't reproduce it and if they could you couldn't hear it anyway.
And the wavelength of hum (60 or 120Hz) is much to long to be picked up by a length of speaker wire.

OK, lay it on me. tell me what is gonna give me slam, impact, full liflelike reproduction over teh crap i use now. If I can do it with 6W rahter than 4600W, think of all teh money I save on the electric bill, cool. And all the space I can save. tell me. tuneful? Now what does that mean? another subjective word I can't grasp.

The separation between + & - legs is to minimize inductance and capacitance, factors I feel are important in cables. This wasn't done to minimze RF pick up which should be more influenced by the lack of shielding. My system has been moved around a bit of late during some minor remodeling of the space where it resides and the only problem I've had is some unwanted noise through the phono cables which at one point sat too close to the AC line for the pre amp and had to run parallel to the cable. Cable dressing and another move for the pre amp eliminated that problem.

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A wideband single driver? Solves many problems, but has many of it's own.

I don't know of much in audio that doesn't trade one thing for another. I'm rather hooked on single driver systems (my audio epiphany was Quad 57's) but this is the first I've heard that doesn't appear to have some of the obvious trade offs of affordable single drivers. None of the peakiness of many low priced SDFR's and terrific treble. Timbre, tone and timing are top notch. Nuance without bombast. It's a tiny little driver that hangs together with anything I've put through it so far. I don't listen at levels that blow five amp fuses and I've never cared for Mahler, so that helps. Lou Reed though is a treat through these drivers.

I am somewhat put off by the focus on "detail" that is the fad in high end right now. It rivals the period a few decades back when low frequency extension was the thing to go for and reviewers were pleased as punch when they heard subways and HVAC systems through the system. But reading sbout "detail" seems to confuse people who don't listen to live music and they want to hear fingers running across strings not fingers manipulating strings. As a friend commented, these drivers have "detail" when you want to hear it. With the 30 A.W.G. cables, notes start and stop in a real space as I hear them do when listening to a live performance while heavier cables have always seemed to muddle that for me. I can't recall a thick cable I've ever thought got it right.

"Tuneful" means it pulls you into the music.

What's your opinion of Klipsch LaScalas? 104dB @ 1 watt. We used to demonstrate them with a table radio. Slam and impact and they can be downright tuneful. They sound horrible on most bipolar outputs but they like MOSFETs and tubes and they sound way better in your home than in the showroom. They don't need fuses, they're un-audiophile good sound and don't need corners.

You tell me PA systems are no good, yet you think the horn from Klipsch ain't originally designed for PA use? Altec,JBL and Klipsch where all originated during the early years for theatre use. When they had under powered tube stuff that needed the high efficiency to make the volume levels needed in a large room. Even they will sound much better with more POWER. I think my speakers are like 98dB stuff hardly inefficient compared to manny that run in the 80's. If you are using a tiny tiny 6 watts, try an amp with some watts, watch how even those become more open and less constricted. 6 watts is for maybe a clock radio. Even horn technology has improved over the years. SLS makes RIBBON drivers for their pro stuff. Modern materials have improved way beyond the old ideas of Klipsch, Altec, etc. SLS will go to the extreme levels needed for live events, even beyond anything from Klipsch. www.slsloudspeakers.com Any speaker will sound BETTER with more WATTS available. Always No such thing as too many watts.

http://www.slsloudspeakers.com/content/view/50/112/

They don't need fuses, well no, not with a 6 watt amp hooked to them, that won't do any damage. When ya have real amps that are capable of frying anything if a fault occurs, fuses matter. My amplifiers can do about 12--1400W RMS fuses needed. The mfg even told me, these amps are some serious power, be careful. When driven full under test and teh AC mains transformer doesn't drop anything as it keeps up with some major loads, that's called a well made. sturdy design. 1400W out the speaker terminals, has some serious current. AND done at hi fidelity standards, 800V/uS slew rates, DC-500kHz .01 dist. It's a nuetral as it gets, not highly bloated tube effects. Try it, you'll be in for a large sonic awakening. More watts, better sound, without a doubt.

Hi Jan, thanks,I don't have a clue what inductance and /or capacitance do,as I'm just a keen as mustard novice.Started about 2 yrs ago when I updated 30 yr old Electro voice speakers for a pair of JBLs38 bookshelf speakers-They sounded a hundred times better than what I had,then just started looking on the net-if I saw a idea that appealed and I could do myself I tried it. If it sounded better to me it stayed, sounded worse then back to the net for more info-Thats how I found the Greg Weaver Tape ICs-Obviously keeping personal safety as a priority, I am willing to try anything for a reasonable cost to inch closer to musical Nirvana.The first AHa moment from tweaking was hearing for the first time the last 5-6 seconds of songs on a Dianna Krall SAcd -Used to wonder why there was 6-8 seconds of silence at the end of each song-going from Denon 2910 DVDP on a flimsy rack to the Denon balanced on inflated tubes and sandbag arrangement-Have since moved on to sturdy rack and marble slabs under components-but as I said before -if it seems plausible and is fairly inexpensive-I roll my sleeves up an give it a go-Have learnt a lot along the way,had a lot of fun and grinned like an idiot when the latest project is hooked up and YeSSS the sound is a few millimetres further up Mt. Nirvana.
Michael..

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The simple concept IS current needs COPPER.

The simple concept is speakers don't require much current, unless you design them in such a way that current is the only hope. The Klipsch LaScala doesn't require much more than a few volts and minimal amperage. Most single driver, full range speakers not of the elctrostatic variety should need very minimal current to operate since there are generally no crossover networks to screw with the signal.

Read the measuements JA gives with each speaker review. If you're seeeing low impedance and high phase angle, particularly negative or capacitive phase angle, the speaker will demand current. Look, however, at a Magnepan MMG with a four Ohm impedance that is very stable and a phase angle that is near 0 degrees for much of its frequency range. That speaker will require an amplifier that can drive a four Ohm load but will not require much current to do so. My LS3/5a's are a high impedance load (15 Ohms nominal) and are very amplifier friendly.

I would say my preference for thinner cables is a personal choice. As I said, the thicker the cable, the more muddled it sounds to me. Solid core has almost always sounded better than stranded cable to my ears. To explain why begins to sound like a cable ad.

Exactly, see the JA writeup on my speakers, they are low impedance. 10 drivers, needs some current to make them come ALIVE with REALISM SLAM IMPACT. Amps that are not up to teh task, are many. I've heard my speakers driven by their own amps, a mere 250 pc.....i did hear distortion when I cranked them at teh dealer...I even questioned why they would use such low wattage to drive these beautys. At least add another amp for teh other side run them in mono. the speakers sound better here than at teh dealer. Gee, ain't it usually the other way around, they disappoint once ya get something home. i knew what I had to do. I do hear better. And the amps are up in power since they where tested. there is no such thing as too many watts, only too little. Just cus' you got 420HP in that RS4, don't mean you use it all the time, but when you need it, the difference it makes when you do, is the difference between great and mediocre. Watts matter, current needs copper. Never been to a live event that has 30 ga wire, or a single driver trying to fill the area, physics says it can't be done. Noone in audio has defeated physics, only marketeers have fooled the gullible. Checkout teh writings of Bill D. www.legacyaudio.com under technical pull downs. It's what it's all about. Even the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook ISBN 0-88188-900-8 is full of great stuff, the more ya know, the more ya learn, the more you see the BS advertised as "audiophile" stuff. Anotehr great read is teh RANE Pro Audio Reference www.rane.com It is full of facts, that debunk the crap BS spewed out from marketeers. 30 ga wire is not for speakers. The internal wiring of a BLOSE wave radio uses more wire than that, where did this idea sprout from, it's absurd.

Speakers do require a lot of current, they opearte at low voltages. Read the statement about CROWN amps, they build high current large bandwidth amps....so does teh manufacturer of mine. current is key, as is FAST wide bandwidth, less only constricts and smothers the sound. If you have not experienced lotsa power, into teh same speakers you use now, you just might awaken to a new realm of realism. 6 watts ain't it. I've been doing this stuff since the early 70's. Always low power sounds like crap, higher power always sounds better. Control, fatigue free, less strained sounding. It really is not magic or anything else but power to move the drivers, and keep moving them when called upon to do so. And control them with something much better than a damping factor of 12 !! Like the currently review ARC $10,000 amplifier...that is a mush bucket, not high fidelity. If that is what reviewers think are "reference" "magical" "life like" they also need a hearing test. Pure tube amps have no control they are mush, bloated, ill defined.

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Never been to a live event that has 30 ga wire, or a single driver trying to fill the area ...

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they will sound much better with more POWER. I think my speakers are like 98dB stuff hardly inefficient ...

You really don't get it; do you, dup? The 104dB Klipsch is about 10% efficient. Your 98dB current hogs are about 2% efficient. The Klispch run on six watts of voltage drive while your insane load can't make an indecent squeal with a reasonable amplifier. Figure it out, dup, your lack of understanding hurts way over here.

dup, you're becoming the redneck, drunken uncle of this thread, wearing your ignorance in pride. How 'bout I just put you on "mute" for a while?

Klipsch somehow has managed to make a voice coil function without current? Don't think so.

Klipsch manual evens says to use 16 ga MINIMUM. They are also rated for 300W amp max, wonder why they give that spec? Maybe for some realistic reproduction levels? Even they know underpowered amps don't let any speaker function to it's abiltys. You'll learn. Perhaps you really don't know what live is.

DUP, I will tell you that PA systems are no good. I am older than you. I have owned Altec, Klipsch, and JBL speakers, which did (as you note) originate as PA speakers. And they never evolved from their origins. They birthed yowling and screeching and haven't stopped since. Did you ever have an ice cream headache? Well, skip the ice cream and listen to any of these PA beauties (and, for good measure and a transcendent migrain) add in the Cerwin-Vegas. A 17-inch ice-pick through your ear-hole may relieve the pain, just from the contrast, if you didn't do an extended listening session.

Sam says the latest iterations of the Klipsch designs ease the upper-midrange whang. I'll take his word for it. I have no desire to risk my sanity by volunteering for another earache from a Klipsch design.

Jan is right about the efficiency/sensitivity issues, 'though. You could kill every dog, kitty, aspiring rapper, or even hummingbird within a 20-block radius of your listening room, with a K-Horn and 3 watts. Just hoist the volume knob past high noon. And duck.

Yes, PA systems can play loud. So could my ex-wife. Yadayadayada.

So you are saying Jan V. thinking his system sounds so great, is not really correct, since according to you, all PA originated stuff is still just a PA speaker? Why does Jan V think Klipsch is so wonderful then? and he says my stuff is just crap. Hmmmmm, is there a disagreement on what is REAL what is lifelike? SLS makes PA commercial stuff, they ain't your father's horn from the 30's. Ribbons baby, modern materials. So Jan V. is also hard of hearing, since he claims his horns are IT. efficient, real, and great sounding, yet YOU say they suck.

Good Lord, how you get things bolloxed up, dup. I never said I was using horns, I never said PA speakers were bad (just not what I want in my living room), your speakers aren't PA speakers - if they were they'd be efficient, and I never said I was running six watts on my present speakers or the Rogers. No wonder nothing you ever post makes sense when you simply can't follow what is posted by others.

Klipsch did not begin as a PA speaker company. The LaScala was inserted in the line both as a PA speaker and a home product using the same drivers and horns as the original three way Klipschorn. The only siginifcant difference between the Horn and the LaScala is a final fold in the bass horn. Not that I expect you to understand or grasp that concept, you will turn it into something it is not just so you can slam something else. The Horn and the LaScala are efficient designs unlike the ten driver current sucking hogs you own which are not no matter what number the manufacturer hangs on their shingle. But you'll never understand why that is and you'll continue to insist you can hear better and know better than anyone else.

dupfacts #1 & #2.

The only disagreement is why we're discussing what you want to discuss once again on a thread that has nothing to do with what you want to discuss. If you had efficient speakers, you could use something other than a power trnsmitting station to run them and you wouldn't need boxes of spare fuses or those gigantic garden snakes you use for wires. Again, you'll never understand nor grasp the concept. What does "dup" stand for any how? Go blow some fuses somewhere else.

Ain't BLOWN no fuses since moving up to 8A..obviously THAT is what the size required within the range sepc'd by the mfg' Which run from 2-10A depending on the load/ speakers. Again 10A no speaker protection, but for test purposes during the mfg. Which showed some great close to 1400W RMS with no dip on the AC out of the AC main transformer, indicating this is built to deliver, which it does. I thought you whre using horns since you brought up the fact that they are so great at 6 w, thus the ASSumption this is what you use. Talk about Flumoxed and trying to confuse the issue. What is it you listen too, that allows you such reference to all else? What decides a speaker is classed as PA? since it looks like Klipsch has used some horn types in it's home series? Maybe that is just for marketing, something different looking, or are they selling PA speakers for home use? What's in YOUR living room?

dup:

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Any speaker will sound BETTER with more WATTS available. Always No such thing as too many watts.

Stereophile:

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A loudspeaker's voltage sensitivity is particularly important when matching amplifiers and loudspeakers. If you have a 20W amplifier, you had better use a very sensitive loudspeaker or else your music will not play very loud. Conversely, if you choose a loudspeaker with a sensitivity which is high

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What kind of values do our systems typically realize assuming an average efficiency, average load speaker?

Unfortunately, Elk, there are no average speakers. Try this from another thread, thanks to SM; http://stereophile.com/features/99/

Ya still ain't said what speakers you be using. I'll take the 98 dB low efficiency ones over many others. Watts, it's watt makes it happen, life like, real, slam, dynamics. Actually 98dB is rather on the higher sensitivity range. Didn't you mention that specs don't matter, how do you know the sensitivity then, did you just hook everything up to a 20W amp until you thought you heard something? My WATTS are better than your WATTS, faster, less distortion, more lifelike, and so many more for that lifelike SLAM...More drivers means more air moving, with less distortion, since they don't have to work as hard. Physics is not beaten by any crazy ideas about tiny amps, and single driver horns. Watts move drivers, drivers move air, it's ALIVE. 1200-1400 X 4 with 800V/uS slew rates, moving lotsa drivers in complex crossovers, means more realism. Using your logic the Chevy is better since you want economy. I want REAL, LIFELIKE. Like teh Lamborghini, uses more energy to do it, but it does it so much better. Watts, it's watt moves ya.

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... did you just hook everything up to a 20W amp until you thought you heard something?

Yeah, dup, that's what I did. Are you done now? You're giving me a headache.

(I can still hear better than you, dup, even with a headache and a pain in the ass.)

This amp? http://www.pbase.com/ericsorensen/mc240 80W....that's is extremely small Maybe work as a guitar amp, overdrive it with some nice high output Les Paul gibson, and get that tube distortion going, sounds good when MAKING music, trying to reproduce it, is a whole nuther world. Don't want bloated tube distortions. If ya want tube, Hybrid or nutin'. this way the tube is used for one aspect, MOSFET for the current. McIntosh is good stuff, well made, does seem to go on forever, but things have improved, 21st century, new materials, better componetns, faster ckts....What about some new Hybrid AVA small amps about 250 pc in a hybrid modern FAST amp....I will gaurantee it will sound much better than an old all tube anything, just because it is faster, less distortion, faster, oh I said that already. Try it, money back guarantee from AVA, you'll be amazed how things have progressed. cool amp though, as a collector item, but for really extreme REAL stuff more watts, faster ckts...really

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Yeah, dup, that's what I did. Are you done now? You're giving me a headache.

I think this is a very interesting thread, and I want to keep it open, but I'm bothered by some of the remarks made by DUP. So, I'm going to filter out some of the off-topic posts, while trying not to cause too much damage to the overall flow. My apologies for the interruption.

Thank you.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Thank you.