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June 13, 2006 - 6:30am
#1
Why must we fight??
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We must fight because Hitler is evil and Naziism is a threat to our american way of life.
Please tell me where is the use of wit, irony or anything clever in the above?
Had you perhaps said "We must fight because DBT is evil and objectivism is a threat to our elitist way of life." it may have been amusing. That is precisely why I recommended that those lacking in the proper skills confer with others before posting.
Better luck next time.
If you find no humor in it, then I would not presume to give you detailed directions; it was merely an attempt to lighten things up a bit. It seems to have only tightened your sphincter muscles, so I obviously failed there....
("Why We Fight" was the title of a series of american propaganda films shown in movie theatres during World War II; the title of your post brought it to mind.... The reference to Hitler, etc. only makes sense if one is familiar with the history of the films, which you apparently are not. Sorry it went over your head. )
I agree, and I'd really appreciate it (and I think we'd all benefit from it) if we would just chill out. Please stop the flaming, name-calling, and general bad behavior. If there is a point to be made, it can be made with respect, intelligence, and kindness, with the goals of helping, sharing, or advancing an opinion or idea. Of course, this should be fun. But, let's keep it good, clean fun. If, for some reason, you feel inclined to insult one another, I suggest you keep it private; personal insults and personal arguments add nothing to the Forum. We don't all need to be involved.
Thanks so much.
I did not mean to appear humorless, in fact I though I response to you was quite amusing and in any event I'm glad that you are not in the least bit offended, as no offense was intended.
As to the "propaganda films shown in movie theatres during World War II", while I'm past the half century mark myself, I still was not around to see any of these films during their first runs. Be that has it may, DBT is still evil and must be stopped!! The same thing can be said for all those useless graphs, charts and diagrams. Out, out damn spots. What possible use can they be to the enjoyment of music?
I was, of course, just being puckish with my original response. I can understand why you might be annoyed that I was being silly instead of addressing the issues you raised, which are certainly valid ones; no problem and no offense, in any case.
Are you guys actually gonna start a fight in the "why we fight?" posting ?!?!?!?! lololol
Yeah, you gotta a problem with that! Don't think that just because you're on the other side of world my crew from Jersey won't find you.
Actually i am using a non-traceable connection.Right now i am somewhere in Africa trying to.....wait-a-minute...what is this !!!F...K.....Gotta run...There's a half naked black guy holding a spear !!! Hey....It's Dup and that's no spear it's his 24000 megawatt power amp !!!! ROTFL
Hey Dup,if you're reading this,don't get me wrong.Whatever you do or say,we all consider you a friend.We just like to tease you a bit.
No need to worry then, there's not enough power in all of Africa for even half of DUP's system.
Sounds like that megawatt amp blew up and cooked DUP crisp*. Maybe it wasn't UL rated like he thought.
*Sounds like something on a menu. Crispy DUP.
hahahahahaha Okay guys , i'm off to bed.Actually,i am going to watch a few episodes of "stargate".You do realise this is just an excuse to leave before Dup comes online !
"Put downs can always be cleverly disguised using wit and puns, it just takes a little work."
Why should there be "put downs" to begin with? This is a peaceful hobby and now we have this great technology to get together here and talk about it[in our pajamas if we want!]. You couldn't do that 20 years ago.
These forums are merely mirroring all the other internet forums. They all tend to degrade into ego and name calling. Add to that the fact that high end audio has a stripe of "snooty-ness" running through it and you have the recipe for flames! I'll probably get flamed for saying that!
I must admit, being new here, I've been a little hesitant to ask questions/post comments but I think I'll just stop caring and participate anyway.
Well, I am no monument to sainthood and willing to bury the hatchet. I don't know what may have been going on before I arrived but take I full responsibility since that date. I apologize to those I insulted. I need to stop watching, "Pulp Fiction", over and over again. Sometimes I think I'm Jules Winnfield.
JULES
I used the same soap you did and
when I dried my hands, the towel
didn't look like a fuckin' Maxie
pad. Look, fuck it, alright. Who
cares? But it's shit like this
that's gonna bring this situation
to a head. If he were to come in
here and see that towel like
that...I'm tellin' you Vincent, you
best be cool. 'Cause if I gotta
get in to it with Jimmie on account
of you....Look, I ain't threatenin'
you, I respect you an' all, just
don't put me in that position.
Forget it Culpeper.I am not the kind of person who holds grunge.I do not know if it was you or someone with a similar alias but these guys here are my friends and i really hope everyone here feels this way.What is the difference if we all gather here and post questions/answers or even make jokes and have fun than sit around a table and have a cup of coffee doing exactly the same thing? Some of these guys (my friends) are war veterans and they found out about eachother by talking and then some guy comes here and start mocking them ! What was i supposed to do ?I am not an American,yet,this in not a matter of nationality.When another American starts mocking another American war vet,well,this is unacceptable to say the least ! Anyway,as i said,just forget about it.
Hey...that's not a spear...that's a microphone boom...you're on Candid Camera!
(and by the way...where did you get the idea that anyone was mocking war veterans???...that is so far from anything that has been posted here, that it makes me shake my head in disbelief; you are confused for some reason.... Perhaps your knowledge of English idioms is not quite perfect and this led you to misunderstand something?)
True,i allways admit it.My English is good but not THAT good
But,i am sure HE was mocking them because not only my post was deleted but his as well! From what i remember,a guy (not sure,i believe it was Clifton but honestly,not sure) was recollecting his experiences etc and this guy said to him (are you crying now? with a "smile" following) well,what do you make of this ?Plus,based on his previous postings,he is was playing mind games with everyone here.
And to be honest commsysman,i think 2 guys here are the same person.Stephen should check this out.I bet he knows who i am reffering to.
Oh, OK then; if your reference was to something that was DELETED from the thread, then I guess I never saw it.
Yiangos is referring to an exchange that took place a few weeks ago in a different thread.
I understand that post deletions occur and are sometimes necessary (SPAM, viruses, links to porn), but, am not fond of them when they result in altering "history". If someone acts like a jerk, it should probably stand, and he or she should suffer the consequences. This might make the person think twice next time. Both Yiangos and I seem to remember something and referred to it, but, can no longer back it up. I'm also sympathetic to keeping the forum a nice place for everyone to visit and that they shouldn't have to be confronted with things that upset them. But, sometimes unpleasant things happen in life, even on the Web, and you can't be shielded. Ideally, we'd all behave in a manner that was appropriate for all ages and post with proper decorum all the time. We're human. We're going to get mad. We're going to be stupid occasionally. It's not that I don't get removing off-topic, insulting posts. I just prefer preserving context. Now, I'll probably regret posting this because I'll say something stupid I wish could be deleted.
I have mixed feelings on the whole deletion thing.
Jeff makes some great points about preserving context. Like him I feel that this is important, and like most of you, I hope these forums remain an enjoyable place to discuss audio.
In my other forum forays, i have noticed that the greatest dammage caused by a flaming insult, isnt that it made someone cry, or wet themselves in anger. The greatest dammage is that the flame tends to hyjack the entire thread, or, worse yet, the whole forum area.
and so I thought (im sure its not a first)
how about a "flame room"
instead of deleting the post, flames or particularly posts which are offensive and contribute nothing to the original topic of discussion, could be relegated to the flame room. the posts text is removed from the original thread, and you can link to it in the flame area. The offending post could be referenced in the future, (for legitamate instances such as this thread) but would be removed from the original thread in order to preserve the productive and generally positive tenor of our discussions.
Flame marked posts would be closed to comment* (Steven M's banishment should be comment enough).
of course an entire thread could be sent there as well.
I have no idea if this is possible, and really don't want to think about it too much, instead im going to have a beer and listen to "london calling" on LP with my new Bellari phono stage ala graduation present. im feeling so rebellious just thinking about it, i won't even spell check this post.
life could be alot worse.
*save for possible applogiesing (so im an idealist)
I truly appreciate this post. Thank you, LM2940, for telling it like it is.
I subscribe to the notion that people are rarely upset for the reason(s) they think. From that vantage point, my hope and request is that posters to this forum will find suitable outlets for their frustration, and not use their postings to discharge whatever is eating away at them under the surface.
If you disagree with someone's ideas, disagree with their ideas. But attacking the person, or playing ego one-upmanship rarely if ever serves a constructive purpose. It says far more about the poster than it does about the subject at hand. Furthermore, it alienates potential posters from venturing onto this list, and defeats one of the main purposes of this forum: the free exchange of ideas and information relating to high-end audio.
Another goal of this list is to create community. Community is built on a sense of commonality and trust. Yes, you can also create a community of sorts by first scaring off, alienating, or trashing by name all but those with the thickest skins and sharpest tongues, and then creating a free-for-all, surival of the fittest atmosphere. But that serves neither high-end audio nor the music for which it exists.
This is not Reality TV. It is a forum devoted to high-end audio, which in turn exists as a medium to transmit musical mysteries that exist beyond the realm of the spoken word. When the words turn sour, and discourse is debased rather than elevated, we are all the poorer.
jason victor serinus
Thank you one and all for every one of these excellent posts. I always get the feeling when I first start a thread that the thread is like this little child that I've sent off into the world ill prepared to deal with the harshness that may greet it. Kind of like a seed on the wind.
Sometimes that seed takes root and grows into a beautiful tree and other times it just withers and dies. This one seems to have hit a nerve and is growing. This makes me a little proud but I know the old saying "Pride goeth before a fall". Therefore I would rather that we take the message of this thread and remember it well and use it, as Jason suggests, to build this forum into a strong and meaningful community, (I'm paraphasing JVS) where the words turn sweet, discourse is elevated rather than debased and we are all the richer.
Who's fighting? Did I miss something? Look out! Culpepper's runnin' around with a hatchet! Stephen, I thought you were supposed to delete this stuff. Where's Pantagruel, er, DUP? I want HIM on my side. For cryin' out loud, DUP, I was only kidding about the midrange glare on the AVA preamp. DUP? If you're out shoppin' for Siltech cables, I am going to be very, VERY disappointed! Still, they just might cure the Wurlitzers. Hell, if the war's over, I'm goin' home. Jeff, you're gonna have to run on the Peace Ticket. Sorry. What a revoltin' development. Duelin' nerds. What, did somebody get goosed with a cryogenically-treated power chord? For God's sake, somebody get a camera -- we could make MILLIONS!
Jason, this is off topic, being non-war-related, but I think I recall your mentioning writing something about Jordi Savall's latest efforts on Alia Vox. Did this by any chance involve the new Boccherini CD (AV9845)? I just got it. I also have Europa Galante (Biondi, on Veritas, #7243 5 45607 2 9) and The Artaria Quartet (Harmonia Mundi, #907069). All 3 do the "La Ritirata di Madrid," and the different approaches are striking, to say the least. Biondi and The Arteria approach the last movement like a conventional set of variations, even though it is labelled "March." Savall's treatment is considerably shorter, musically depicting a scene with a street band passing by, approaching as if from afar, the music only faintly discernable, then increasing in loudness, then fading out into the distance. Savall's is considerably shorter than the two more "formal" versions. Do you know anything about how this piece was published? For the record, Luciano Berio orchestrated this same piece, in his own inimitably surreal, almost garish fashion, and Chailly has recorded it, along with a few other Berio transcriptions (Decca, 476 2830). It is a fascinating disc.
Grendel got the short-shrift by a computer screw-up. Can you imagine an opera production dependent upon some damnable computer? Anyway, it's on for tonight. I'll let you know. This better be good. Cheers, Clifton.
Thank you for all of this great input. We try to be lighthanded with the deletions, and we understand the concern for preserving context. Windzilla's idea of creating a "flame area" for inappropriate posts sounds excellent. Let's give it a shot. We've created "The Dead Zone," where bad posts will be sent to die.
Let's try to keep The Dead Zone empty, please.
Thanks again.
Why on earth did you mention the "snake eyes" ? You want something like "It's those puny amps you're using.You need WATTS WATTS WATTS man" ! Hmmmmm come to think of it,why didn't Stephen call it "The Twilight Zone" ?
Yiangos,
I believe that you have it backwards. The "snakes eyes" only light when the speakers are in danger of overloading, as in there is too much power being sent to them, as in "turn down the volume!!" Clearly not a case of puny amps but muscle amps. What I have is plenty of watts!
Well.....try explaining this to Dup !
midrange "glare"..have you heard the latest AVA Ultra Hybrid pre amp EC..and Ultra Hybrid phase inverters....
To steal an appropriate tag line, sorta' WATTS...there is no substitute.
DUP, the last time I had my phase inverted, she left me for dead. I won't go through that again. Actually, it was a decent enough preamp -- the tone controls were handy on bad software. It just aggravated an area in my (at the time)speaker's response curve that was already a bit hot. I feel no need to change my current preamp. It is dead-on neutral, transparent, quiet, and just gets out of the way. If it sounds right, don't mess with it.
I agree, Jeff. I would hate to see the humanity in the forum sanitized to pablum...or perhaps "lobotomized" would be a better word. Jason's psychoanalysis notwithstanding, I haven't noticed any "fights" getting so bad they need to be repressed into some "Dead Zone." And I've been the butt of as many disagreements and barbs as anyone...what's so wrong with butting back? The "Dead Zone" (LIVE zone?) seems like a convenient way to do the same old labelling: what's worse is, if you build it, they will come. It is just deletion with a different name, and isn't it possible that the very creation of a special place will be an invitation to the terminally obnoxious to fill it? Forum denizens are perfectly capable of exposing outrage by simply commenting on it. Stephen does a good job of selecting the irrelevant and the obscene for deletion...I've had some of my better quips deleted, and I have no problems with it. His private mailbox is open to any objectors, and he will respond with reason and restraint. I personally think this particular thread is overkill...but I may just be more thick-skinned than some of the more sensitive souls out there, having spent 20 years throwing truly violent offenders out of countless classrooms.
I have enjoyed the exchanges of ideas on this forum, both in seriousness and in jest, ALL posts considered. I fear that lobotomizing it might squelch the life out of it. After all, it WAS the sustained donnybrook initiated by reactions (pro AND con) to some of DUP's posts that resulted in JA's and Jeff's visit (who else attended that historic summit?) and a good time had by all. Now what other forum out there can match THAT? DUP has been a welcome irritant, roiling the potential smugness of the the "Audiophile" status quo, and, in the process, we're all the better for it, since (with Stephen's help) we all smoothed our own ruffled feathers without the need for any "Dead Zone." And, we've got Jeff, master diplomat and connoisseur of chaos (sorry, Wally). Cheers all, Clifton.
Clifton,
I think if you reread my initial post in this thread you'll see that I didn't ask for the creation of a "Dead Zone" nor did I ask for the complete repression of disagreements. Rather I asked for for decorum in dealing with such disagreements.
My original post:
Heck, I even suggested that they contact you for some sage advice. I enjoy a good argument filled with lots of facts, verbal jabs, double-entendres, quips, etc. but I don't enjoy childish name calling and unfunny personal insults. There's just no call for that kind of behavior. I don't need Stephen to police me, I can do it myself or should I slip up, I sure hope one of my fellow forum members would let me know it, but privately and in no uncertain terms.
The big problem is that this is a public forum and there are quite a few jerks out there, however, in spite of that I believe that we (meaning the core members of this forum) can maintain a high level of discourse on this message board and make this great place to exchange our thoughts and ideas about audio and music.
And by the way, I believe you are completely correct in your take on DUP. He came out swinging, realized he would get nowhere, settled down quite nicely and has now become one of my favorite posters on the forum. He knows what's "off limits" and he knows what "in bounds" and he's really on the ball. What I am troubled about is what has happened to Jim T., he hasn't been around in awhile. I know that he doesn't go in for all that flaming and might have given up on the forum. Let's hope not, I rather enjoyed his input.
Yeah,Jim T.hasn't been around for a while,as-well-as nrchy.
Two ppl i value their opinions and views.Oh,btw,a few weeks ago,i caught Reed H.,remember him,in "AA" complaining about something you guys did to him or said to/about him in a debate or something here.
You really take the cake. What a load of diplomatic crap. So, you qualify who can fight based on terms used and Who's Who on the forum. In other words, you consider yourself a member of a clique and those outside said clique are malcontents while the rest of you and your little butt-buddies can post as each see fit to include fighting. BTW, don't underestimate DUP. He is by far still a lone wolf on this forum. And that is not a bad thing. You started this thread requesting some peace and harmony and since then you've been laying down retribution, blame, criticims to responses, and setting conditions . You should have kept out of the dialog after you started seeing some positive feedback. You're no monument to Henry Kissinger.
Christopher Hitchens might take issue with your Kissinger analogy.
Hey Dr. Pepper,
That's just the kind of dump, stupid behavior I was referring to. First off I didn't dis DUP, I said that I enjoy his posts and in fact I've come to his defense on more than one occasion. Second, I didn't say "those outside said clique are malconcontents", I said it's a public forum and there are a lot of bad apples out there but there are ways to deal with them without resorting to name calling and other forms of insults.
You, on the other hand, haven't seemed to found a way to deal nicely with others, at least on a consistant basis from what I can read. I certainly don't mean you any harm and I certainly don't mean for you not to express your opinion, I just don't see what using terms like "butt-buddies" brings to the table other than pissing people off. I don't log onto this forum to be pissed off or pissed on, there's plenty of sites on the internet that will cater to those whims, for a small fee. I like this forum because the level of discourse is somewhat above the normal crap which is all to often found on the net and I think that it is worth preserving. If that upsets you, I'm sorry you'll just have to grow up a bit and learn some better manners. Some helpful hints: stop the personal attacks, they serve no purpose and garner you no friends, if you feel compelled to vent by all means do so but then wait a while before you post the message and then edit it when you're a little calmer. Remember no one here is out to get you, why the hell would they be?
This isn't about backing down from a fight, it's about the very concept of a fight verus a civil agrument or discussion. It's commonly called agreeing to disagree and then learning how to live together.
DUP seems to have made the adjustment, why can't you?
Thanks for caring. I have just lost passion for this hobby for the time being as I have sold off most of my decent gear including my Jolida CD player and Rega TT. My Triangles with the Sextan center channel went in Nick, my 11 year old son, and Diane's TV room. I listen mostly on my home office computer rig as shown in the "Gallery" and up stairs on Grado or Sony 7506 headphones driven by my Dell Laptop or old Project One/DR 220 TT/.
After 500 posts I was afraid I was becoming Phinias T. Bluster of the forum. For you younger folks Mr. Bluster was the Mayor of DoodyVille, yes Howdy Doody's hometown. Has there ever been a more aptly named politician on the planet than Mr. Bluster? It is scarry perfect. That is bluster as in Winny the Poo and the Blustery Day!
I heard someone who I served with in the Legislature call another State Rep someone who "could talk a starving dog off a meat truck". I do not want to become that person on this forum.
No one as offended me or made me feel unwelcome as at my age of 59 if you want to dislike me you will "have to stand in line". LOL
It is always good to see people passionate about things that can bring great entertainment, joy, passion, and excitement about something, some music that can touch your soul. Music can do that when little else can.
Today my wife walked into the bathroom as I was shaving to show me an advertisment for the "I-Poop". I am not kidding. It is the Ipod docking station with the toilet paper holder you bolt to the bathroom wall. Now, those of you who have always thought that MP3s sounded like $%$# you have proof.
When I saw the DeadZone I was wondering what happen to Pet Semitary...Lewis, sometimes dead's better!
Regards,
I too was wondering about JT, hoping all was well with him and family. Thanks Jazzfan for drawing him back out.
Jim, somehow I believe your in denial. You sold the Jolida you swore we would never be able to pry from your cold dying hands?
I cannot believe someone who has written numerous passionate posts about this hobby could possibly lose his passion.
One sure way to rekindle the flame is to build a new system, and I suspect that
Well, me so dumb that I was sitting here thinking, "Who's this JT? The guy I miss is Jim Tavegia."
I hope everything is otherwise going perfectly for you and yours.
I hear ya on the cyclical nature of passion.
You know what I think is great for rekindling passion?
Yup. That's correct. It's really two things!
1) Starting fresh and limiting yourself to products distributed by Roy Hall and Music Hall.
There is a thrill to starting over and keeping it affordable. Systems that sound "better than they have a right to" are more fun than systems that sound better, but lack the "entusiasm" of some of the cheaper gear.
2) When I get bogged down and disconsolate when my system isn't being maintenance-free and the best sound, ever, every day, Big Mike comes over and helps me recharge.
Is there a Hi-Fi buddy in your area to hang with and bounce dumb / smart / funny / dull / insightful / insipid / revolutionary / mundane ideas off?
I wish you weren't so geographically undesirable, we'd love to sip some lemonade and play tunes with ya!
Hi, Jazzfan,
I think all of your points are well-taken, and I didn't mean to imply that my musings were directed at any one person, especially you (whose comments I consistently enjoy). I was (am) trying to think out loud a bit on this whole idea of censorship on the forum. I addressed my concerns to Jeff because he, too, expressed some doubt about censoring out argumentive comments to somehow avoid "fighting." Stephen is the moderator and thus has the responsibility of maintaining some decorum, and I think most would agree that he does a good job. It's just that I haven't seen fires started that have been threatening enough to rage out of control, given the quick responses/objections of other forum members in the normal course of things. I like the forum fine the way it is.
I notice DUP has popped the cherry on the Dead Zone. I can't tell if he is serious half the time. I am curious if Stephen took his comments from another thread and routed them into the ninth circle of hell, or if DUP, abhorring a vacuum, deliberately started a Dead Zone thread by addressing it specifically. DUP, do you want some company down there?? You have two anvils for ears, and I think I can probably find a sledgehammer and tongs at Home Depot. Hee Hee. That oughta do it. Peace and love to all, Clifton.
I don't think your post above will make it into the Dead Zone since I have no idea what the relationship is between "anvils for ears" and "sledgehammer and tongs". But whatever it may be, you think seem to think that it's enough to get you tossed into the DZ.
By the way, do you think the subjuect heading "Re: Cherry Popping" will do it? Let's see.
I do think that DUP was only joking since he left out too many of his all time favorites lkie cable cooking, jumping electrons and ever changing dielectic cable voltages. If he was really angry he won't have missed that voltage one, no way.
In any event, DUP does have a point on some of those wilder claims out there in the land of high end audio. I don't believe half of them and in those cases where they do have an audible affect on the music, one still has to weigh the cost verus the gain and make your own judgement on the products merits. For all the carping that goes on about the money wasted on high end shake oil I would guess that ten times that amount is being wasted on mid-fi junk which could easily be replaced with better sounding "high end" equipment. Now that's something we should be discussing.
I thought it was obvious DUP was having a bit of fun and made a post that was supposed to appear like he insulted people and got sent to the DZ. I found it amusing.
Jim - Welcome back. I'm sorry to hear you've lost your passion for this hobby and sold the gear that seemingly gave you much pleasure. I hope you haven't given up on recording as well. I enjoyed your CDs and would like to hear more of your efforts as you continue to experiment and learn.
I have always enjoyed your posts, and the forum doesn't seem the same without them. May you reach 10,000 posts.
I guess the one good thing about selling your gear is that you can try out new stuff now...
I thought, with the right instruments and a delicate touch, I could re-tune DUP's ears and thus get his brain back up to spec. Now, juusst hold still, DUP, and think yourself into a happy place, and this won't hurt a bit...
Actually, I think DUP was joking, and so was I. Still, it would take ears of the finest annealed steel to take the whuppin' DUP's system, as self-described, must deliver day in, day out. I am truly awed, and since I have never seen this phenom, I can only imagine with my most outre conceits what manner of mere human tissue could do justice to the prose picture I read daily. I thus "see" something Rabelaisian, or even a design a la Vonnegut... a hybrid blend of Pantegruel with Harrison Bergeron, perhaps, with various metallic mutations having evolved to facillitate survival in his torturous environment.
DUP isn't a "lone wolf" on this forum. And there are no cliques designed to exclude him or anyone else. We all enjoy DUP, and if we rag on him a bit, he certainly can (and does) reply in kind, with no rancor on either side. His skepticism of voodoo tweaks adds humor and a dose of pragmatism to the scene, and I think I can speak for almost everyone in saying we would miss him if he left the forum. But I ain't buyin' no stinkin' Van Alstine preamp.