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michael green
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BINGO

Right on the money Toledo! We sit on this side why? Because we are doing. They would be on the same side if they "did". None of us tunees say this to be mean, we say this to be a help.

How many times do we see men hanging on to something for dear life without trying lol. All signs point to it being better on the other side but they can't get themselves to budge. I've sat in many living rooms with audiophiles almost crying before finally accepting the truth. Once they deal with it in their pride zone they become happy campers or walk away from the hobby cause they lost some sort of battle that they were having within themselves. Has nothing to do with the sound a lot of times. Every rational person would welcome better sound. These guys don't realize we at one time were sitting in their very seat with a CD or Vinyl or FM or Tape wondering why is this sounding so bad. Not one audiophile has avoided this, not one.

I have put on now over 10 CD's on the poor rated list and all of them sounded find.

How about the reviews with me and Tom Miiler (TAS), these were done way before the compression issue. We together tuned "The Final Cut" and "Selling England by the Pound" after the review panned them. Those reviews were reversed after we tuned. This has been going on for a long time. I did the same thing at Guy Lemcoe's place Les Linton's. Did this with J Gordon at a show, Frank up at Harry's place. Gary Reber's when we fixed the cymbals, Mark's (in terms of music) and on and on. So I see nothing here but some stuck guys.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

michael green
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catch I hope

Catch, tell me how your system plays the music faithfully please? And all the others that sound different aren't?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Catch22
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I most certainly do NOT have a system with those capabilities

But, I realize that I don't and still enjoy it for what it does do well.

michael green
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So why?

Hi Catch so why do you down the tune? Isn't it obvious that we are reaching higher levels of listening?

Also would you call, The Rise And Fall Of Ziggy Stardust And The Spiders From Mars [DVD-A 24/48 Additional Tracks AC3 Multichannel Stereo Downmix] an audiophile recording?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Catch22
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I'm not "downing" anything

It's like I've said all along, people find different aspects of sound reproduction to be more or less important for them to connect with the music.

As for the "higher levels of listening" thing, that's really hard to say. On the one hand, I respect people with a lot of experience and application of that experience in real world conditions. On the other hand, I can't quite appreciate "higher levels of listening" by people who can't hear "Modern Times" for what it is...a really, really, really bad recording. So, in that regard, I'm not willing to make any leap of faith on that one except to say that sorta goes back to my basic premise of each of us having our own perception of what constitutes "good sound."

I don't have Ziggy Stardust and really couldn't express an opinion on it. I'm not much of a Bowie fan and so I don't have any of his stuff.

ChrisS
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Stuckness!

Hi Michael,
Very true, what characterizes many of these people is their "stuckness". What I find of interest is not so much what they say, but their personalities and what may be underlying the way they are.

Tunees talk, listen, experience, and share. Tunees are part of a large community that enjoy all aspects of this fun hobby of audio and the music culture at large. The stuck people are all on their own.

michael green
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Yep

Yep, there's some pretty stuck audiophiles out there.

But thanks to them I'll have to make some phone calls to my friends. According to their DRBS, "dark side of the moon" on mp3 is as dynamic as Mobile Fidelity and SACD. Oh, and same with "wish you were here". Now isn't that somethin.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

wkhanna
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Apples & Oranges…Forests & Trees…

As I have stated often here, DR database is only ONE tool used to evaluate the quality of production of music.
It does no more than determine the total decibel range of the master used to make a specific album release.
It is NOT a panacea for determining the absolute quality of any recording.

An mp3 can possess a high DR value, but the Bitrate (resolution) of the mp3 you reference is only 320.
Where as the Bitrate for the average Redbook CD is easily double the mp3 value.
Any system, from an Ifone to one that is ‘tuned’ would easily display the difference in sound quality.

Bill - on the Hill
Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
- just an “ON” switch, Please –

geoffkait
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Signal measurements

Say, didn't JJ the inventor of mp3 once grace these very fora? I seem to recall getting into some discussions with JJ here, some real doozies. Anywho, here's something that popped up in a cursory search of cyberspace, eveything you never wanted to know about measuring audio signals...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_system_measurements

Of course, the problems arise when one tries to figure out how in the heck you're supposed to measure such beloved characteristics of the audio signal as liquidness, soundstage, musicality, propulsiveness, naturalness, transparency, slam, pace and rhythm, pop, coherence, air and things of that nature.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

wkhanna
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Ah Yes….the endless Sisyphus conundrum….

The debate of subjective vs objective purest continues ad nauseam.
The late J Gordon Holt did more to champion the music lover than just about anyone, IMNSHO.

Bill - on the Hill
Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
- just an “ON” switch, Please –

wkhanna
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Citations.....

Geoff,
As quoted from your link:

“Dynamic range refers to the ratio of maximum to minimum loudness in a given signal source (e.g., music or programme material), and this measurement also quantifies the maximum dynamic range an audio system can carry. This is the ratio (usually expressed in dB) between the noise floor of the device with no signal and the maximum signal (usually a sine wave) that can be output at a specified (low) distortion level.

Since the early 1990s it has been recommended by several authorities including the Audio Engineering Society that measurements of dynamic range be made with an audio signal present. This avoids questionable measurements based on the use of blank media, or muting circuits.”

This is what the DRM app does.

Bill - on the Hill
Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
- just an “ON” switch, Please –

michael green
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listening

This is why listening is always the best test. Data testing should be looked at for what it is and not an excuse not to like something or like it. While the testing spins are going on I'm doing my own listening test and hopefully they'll be helpful.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

michael green
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the walls of the stage

This last week I've begun some listening tests as a result of trying some freezing treatments. I want to walk slowly here because I don't want to do anything that will perminantly cause the soundstage to not reach out as far. I'm all about the big stage "real space/real size" which I believe is the foundation of this hobby.

This week I tested one amplifier and next month have 3 more on the way to take apart and find what makes the stage shrink and grow. You might be surprised if you start this adventure on your own to find there is usually a far bigger soundstage to be had by finding the parts that have physical constraints of the mechainics of the component.

If you pay attention to the soundstage while a system is playing you will notice that as the component warms up the stage grows. If the component gets too warm you will see the edge of the stage start to get fuzzy, but if the component reaches a nice consistant state of burnin it will continue to grow as long as you wish to keep the CD on repeat.

In the past I have done this same test but wanted to do this in real time so it is fresh. Nothing like talking about something that is happening right in front of you.

My tests this time around are being done on both solidstate and tubes, from ten watts to 200. Some will have the transformer intact and some with it out board, including one amp that has the whole power supply out board.

I'm looking forward to giving some listening results over the next while and hope you enjoy it as much as I do when doing this.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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