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geoffkait
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The ever expanding sphere of sound

Michael, you might have forgotten I am strictly using a dedicated headphone system. Yes I recommend placing speakers closer together than one would ordinarily think, this is actually the recommendation of the good folks at XLO, Roger Skoff and Keith O. Johnson. The reason for the better sound with speakers relatively close together compared to where a lot of folks might place them - what would you guess, 6 to 8 feet apart in an average room? - is the physics of the speaker/room system. When speakers are properly set up, and I'm not saying all speakers should be 4 or 4.5 feet or even 5 feet apart, it all depends on the speakers and the room, layout, types of room treatment, distance to the listener, obviously. And toe in should not be necessary in most cases, all things being equal, which of course they frequently aren't. Lol. For my system when I had Fultons, the proper distance between them was about 4.5 feet iirc. I am just suggesting that folks rethink the whole speaker placement thing as you might be able to do better. As I also mentioned, or at least I think I did, the best speaker locations in terms of center fill, soundstage, etc. will be found using the XLO Test CD as opposed to the tedious and relatively less inaccurate process of trial and error, moving a little, listening a little.

Moving right along, I am not a big fan of transformer noise and it's effect in the other electronic components and wiring in the component, and cannot conceive why that noise would produce a better soundstage than would the elimination of the noise. By the same token the magnetic field of the transformer impinges negatively on the electrical components and wires in the component and needs to be dealt with to achieve the best results, to achieve taut, dynamic bass, more information and a larger, expanding sphere of the sound. The magnetic field issue can be saved for another day. What I think we are looking for soundstage wise is the dimensions of the actual room or hall where the recording was made, assuming the thing was recorded live. I'm pretty confident all the room echo and reverberant decay and so on is captured on the recording, all things being equal.

Soundstage height kind of comes with the territory, don't you think, the larger the expanding sphere the higher the soundstage and the more you can perceive the sound all around you, perhaps way to the sides or even behind you under the right conditions, assuming the information is on the recording. By the way vibration isolation of the components (I.e. Mass on spring iso system) is quite important for achieving the largest and most accurate soundstage depth, width and height. But a real, live, integrated soundstage, not a projected facsimile of a soundstage.

Cheers, Geoff @ Machina Dynamica

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New thread in tweaks forum

Geoff,

You have, once again, taken over a post about one topic and twisted it into something else you wish to discuss.

This post was basically about over dampened rooms.

I have taken the liberty of creating a thread for you about mass loaded isolation, dampening and vibration control.

The thread is appropriately in the Tweaks forum.

Stop capitalizing on other peoples threads and let the chips fall where they may and create interesting threads based on your ideas.

michael green
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listening is a doing sport

Hi Geoff

Here again is where my concerns are with your posts. It doesn't look like you are doing but talking about in room systems. Recently you said you are using in room speakers again after a 6 year break, but then as fast as you say this you are saying you only have a headphone system for listening and testing. Sir, how can you make guiding statements if you are no where near an in room listening system? I'm trying to be nice about this but, it's like getting guitar lessons from an instructor that has no guitar.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

geoffkait
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My system
michael green wrote:

Hi Geoff

Here again is where my concerns are with your posts. It doesn't look like you are doing but talking about in room systems. Recently you said you are using in room speakers again after a 6 year break, but then as fast as you say this you are saying you only have a headphone system for listening and testing. Sir, how can you make guiding statements if you are no where near an in room listening system? I'm trying to be nice about this but, it's like getting guitar lessons from an instructor that has no guitar.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Michael, apologies for any confusion, I never said I had a speaker system now. I did mention I used to have a speaker system. And yes I have a headphone system now, a very good headphone system. You might possibly be confusing me with someone else. I used to have a lot of speaker systems. Do you think I just forgot how to do all of that? Not bloody likely. lol.

Thanks for trying to be nice about this, by the way. :-)

If there is going to be a meeting by the river you might consider keeping a log. :-)

Cheers, Geoff @Machina Dynamica

michael green
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Geoff's system, my system

Hi Geoff

I'm not going to go back and look, and I appreciate you clearing this up. My friend, we listen constantly to these setups and are constantly tuning them to uncover more and more music. We don't listen 6 years ago and throw out tweaks to the public as if they are real cures for anything. This may be the practice of many audio designers (I don't know) ,but we are a quite a bit more serious than that. This week for example we are teaching wood shops how to voice tone and how to pick out the best sounding rough cuts before going through preping. Two months ago we picked some of these pieces of wood and listened to them, now two months later after voicing we are listening to our results of the different voicing procedures. That's serious listening and one that goes on daily constantly finding the very best of flavors with all the materials used in the tuning systems and with stock systems, and all the products sent to us. As far as I know, no one in the industry goes to extents we do, or at least so I am told. We build the tests recording studios all the way through the "tunable room" so no distortion goes uncovered.

This day we are tuning in "KebMo" while voicing in some very high tech floorstanding acoustical products made from Brazilian Pine, Low Tone Redwood and Argentine Pine. We can take the individual instruments and shape them anyway anyone would ever want them to sound in their home. This to us is tweaking, and development. There is no room for any of our listeners to say "Do you think I just forgot how to do all of that? Not bloody likely. lol." The music here is in a 24/7 30 some year on going tweak.

This is so different from what you are doing I not only think you would be shocked but also really enjoy this. When you can make a drumset sound this real it is really something to behold.

So in these settings we can hear the affects of cork (all kinds of cork) or any other material that has been and continues to be thrown our way. It's really a blast to be actively doing this but it does require staying extremely sharp and current. Current as in even hearing changes during the days natural sonic changes. There's a big difference from tweaking something 6 years ago, and doing it every day for the last 6 years. Can you see why we are looking at you and shaking our heads? We are so much more involved in the process than what you are doing. We're not trying to be mean we are just trying to let your form of tweaking not be associated with our level of tuning.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

michael green
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back on track

Hi Listeners

I figured if I gave it a little time the side tracks here would stop and we could continue, they have and I will.

If you go back I was talking about some things to do to find out what your space is doing, and your speakers in your space.

Many listeners try to setup systems that fight instead of systems that play. We get these ideas in our minds of the perfect systems but many times we do this with our eyes, and the thought of reaching certain levels of audiophile classes. We also try to be joe engineer and run our tests, but this can lead to a sound that is less than the best. Many listeners have struggled because they have systems in their living rooms with furniture all around and are forcing floor standing speakers to do things they can't because of the furniture. A satilite sub system would be much better for many rooms that use furniture and the other way around. Designing your room is really not so hard if you think about the system logically. Think of your speakers as creators and think of your room as the acoustical amplifier. Every time you add a piece of furniture to your room your changing the formula. You may be one of these measuring guys and built your room according to a size recommended. I have bad news for you. Put the chair in your room and everything has changed, your formula is no more. The soundwaves don't know the difference between a chair and a wall. They only know what they do as energy looking to increase or be used up. Sit in your chair with your chosen furniture or lack of. Look at your walls, openings, flooring, fixtures, speakers and equipment. This is your room. This is what you have to work with and the more you understand the sound of your space the more of a chance you have to make great sound. If your sitting in that listening chair and you have furniture in your room and the speakers are on the floor firing into that furniture, what do you think the system is going to sound like? lets find out.

time for another field trip

If you have your speakers setup already and furniture in your room, I want you to get 3 feet from your speaker while it's playing. Is the music coming directly out of that speaker? If your room is playing the music instead of your furniture you could sit 3 feet from your speaker and not be pulled into the sound of the speaker, you would instead hear the room making the sound. The closer you can get to the speaker before the sound jumps into it the better your room is playing the music. Now if you are hearing the sound coming directly out of the speaker, how far away from the speaker do you have to get before the speaker disappears, or does it ever disappear? If the speakers don't disappear than this means you are hearing something else other than the speaker dictating the sound. If your one of those guys who think you are killing the room allow the speaker to play and you can hear the music coming directly from the speaker when you get near it, it is time to rethink your theories about sound. Your hearing what ever the soundwaves are being affected by. Time to rethink what you are listening to. Your hearing everything in the room and everything in the room has it's own thoughts about what the room should sound like. Some things are burning sound, and other things are vibrating with the sound and yet other things are bouncing the sound. To learn about this spend some time walking and putting your head at ear level and move around the room with the music playing. Frightening isn't it, but the materials in your room are not lying to you. If you pay attention while doing this you are going to hear the music take on tons of different sounds the closer you get to the objects. If you move back away from that object you will start hearing it's affect on the entire space. You may even want to take an object out to hear how much of an affect. This is why I like to start with empty rooms add as little furniture as possible.

One last thing for the moment. Sit in your listening chair and look at everything that is inbetween you space wise and your speaker. The floor maybe ceiling maybe a wall maybe something behind you or off to the side. maybe furniture, a carpet, could be many things that you have between you and that speaker. For those of you who like to measure nows your chance. Get out your test equipment and set it up 18" from the front of your speaker and get a picture. Now go around the room and measure 18" from every piece of furniture with the mic pointing at the furniture with the same source playing. If you have half way decent test equipment you are in for a shock. You think that you can put a mic in front of a speaker and tell what's it's doing and one at your chair and tell what your ears are hearing, fat chance buck-O. Take some time and really measure what your hearing. Take that mic around and test the sound of the furniture. If you know what your doing with this test above a Radio Shack engineering degree, this might be the last time you use that equipment to give you anything meaningful. Go ahead test the sound of your furniture up close even 3 or 4 inches and tell us what you get. This is what you are hearing. This is your stereo. Now, walk up to your foam and traps and defusion panels and get that mic nice and close. this is what you are hearing. Get it close to that carpet, and that over stuffed chair. For those who have put away testing toys, first good for you, second do this same test using your ears. Get up close to all these things in your room and hear what they are contributing to the sound.

ladies and gents this is your stereo

Your room and the objects in it are what you are listening to. This is your stereo. Everything before the point of your room is your source. Your stereo begins when you play your room.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

iosiP
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Been there, done that...

Michael, my speakers are 2.5m apart and I can move at less than 1m from the speaker line and still not hear them as individual sources. The only problem is the tonal balance, but then this depends on the lateral dispersion.
[img]http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh492/iosiP/20140527_140609_zps135ee...
[IMG]http://i1248.photobucket.com/albums/hh492/iosiP/DSC_0448_zps107913d5.jpg...

michael green
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What are you hearing?

Hi Costin

Looking at the pictures I see a lot of things but what are you hearing?

let me tell you why I say this

Just now in my room I went in with a CD case and set it on the floor and heard it. It shifted the tone of the cymbals up. I took it out and came back in with a pillow about the size of the stuffed animal I saw in the pic and the sound got cloudy. This of course is my room and setup. What did you find these types of things did to your sound?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

geoffkait
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Things that oddly affect the sound
michael green wrote:

Hi Costin

Looking at the pictures I see a lot of things but what are you hearing?

let me tell you why I say this

Just now in my room I went in with a CD case and set it on the floor and heard it. It shifted the tone of the cymbals up. I took it out and came back in with a pillow about the size of the stuffed animal I saw in the pic and the sound got cloudy. This of course is my room and setup. What did you find these types of things did to your sound?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

I agree, that CDs affect the sound, even profoundly. When I used to have several large plastic contains of CDs, I experimented to find where in the room they should be placed from the perspective of the best sound. It does matter. I perhaps feel a little obligation to mention it also matters whether the CDs (and LPs) are stored in an upright vertical position or in a horizontal position (bad for the sound). You should also find that when you store CDs in thin paper sleeves instead of the clear plastic jewel boxes, whoa!, the sound improves. One wonders if those plastic jewel boxes could be HF resonators. Hmmmm. I find Ikea chairs, Sonex, lead, cushions and rugs particularly objectionable. Another trick you might consider is place audio cones underneath all furniture in the room. Have you ever given any consideration to the old CDs in the home freezer idea?

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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yep!

Yepper on that one! Cd cases in a listening room can be deadly. However I recently did a room that had the cases sitting on the window ledge (only a few and they were not all plastic) and the client moved them to the open closet up on the shelf, and when I came in the next time the sound fell apart, so I asked what he did. We put those some 20 or so back on the window ledge and the music was back. We ended up fine tuning things more and the cases again left but this was an eye opener for the listener. The window needed to be treated with one of my magic snake oil toys, but most importantly it taught the guy to take into account the whole space and everything in it.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

iosiP
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CD cases and others

1. The sound is better with the CD cases than without: I tried "before" and "after" and the sound got better and better as I added more CDs.

2. Most of the stuff on the left wall is removable (and removed when listening). The photos were not taken during a listening session.

3. Short answer: no, I didn't! Long answer: stickimg old CDs in the freezer is the best way to have condensation between the layers (just in case some air got there over the years) and eventually even frozen spots able to dislodge the reflective layer. Of course, if someone can explain why this works (no quantum stories, please, just plain physics) I'm willing to give it a try.

4. If music can be tuned with CD cases, why use magic snake oil toys instead? At least with CD cases there is no need to use the "with-without" approach, I can move/remove/add any number at any time, so what better fine-tuning can I get?

5. The only tuning is the component rack: I preferred a light and slightly wobbly rack to one that felt (and weighted) like a rock. And yes, the spikes under the speakers: I designed those myself and had them made by a friend that has a high-precision metal workshop. They have a rather peculiar geometry but it gave me the best results.

michael green
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absolutely none

Hi Costin

If your happy with it that's all that counts :)

As far as my client, he decided that the CD cases in the end were adding a plastic sound to the stage and were causing his speakers to act funny, but that was him. As for me a plastic sound is noticed when I set a CD case in the room, but that is me. You are coming up with a totally different set of results, and that is you.

As far as number 4, it sounds like your pretty happy with what you have so I can only be happy for you.

I've learned long ago not to step on another man's system unless they ask :) If someday you ask I'll be happy to jump in, until then (if ever) I'm happy that your happy.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

michael green
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the other speakers in the room

Hi Guys

As the field trips keep rolling, and you've taken the time to listen to the objects in the room you can hear how everything affects everything else. You'll also notice that if you have furniture in the room, when you stand up there is more energy standing than sitting down. This brings me to perhaps the most important part of the room, the upper corners. Your upper corners are the rooms speakers. Because the chair and speakers and maybe other objects in the room (hopefully not too many) are lower your upper corners become the most open pressure building areas in your room. Some people put things on their walls to help the sound but I have found that if you start with the corners and then into the room, you will gain more control over the sound then if you start on the walls first. This doesn't always work because of climate and build conditions but it's a good starting place when voicing.

So if we review, we listened to what the best sound in the house is, we looked at the best wall in the room, the best sounding spot for your speakers, the objects in the room and now the upper corners. If you started with an empty room (good for you your way ahead of the curve), and simple system and a chair and you are learning how the upper corners sound, you have enough to start to be dangerous. A few more steps and you are going to have a sound that will rival the best of the best. Again I want to say an empty room is way ahead of a room with furniture in. One of the first things that happens when I do a redo for anyone is getting that room empty. For those of you who have a spare room but you thought it may be too small, let me tell you. A huge room packed doesn't have a chance against a smaller room empty. There are a ton of guys that have spare bedrooms that are perfect for killer sound. And don't think that a small room means small soundstage cause in many cases it means the opposite. A bigger room many times will have so many compromises that it takes forever to work through the problems whereas most smaller rooms build great usable pressure and are easy to manage. Don't get me wrong I love the sound of a big room done right, but a big room done not so well will leave you missing a ton of music.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

geoffkait
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You'd be willing to try

You wrote,

"3. Short answer: no, I didn't! Long answer: stickimg old CDs in the freezer is the best way to have condensation between the layers (just in case some air got there over the years) and eventually even frozen spots able to dislodge the reflective layer. Of course, if someone can explain why this works (no quantum stories, please, just plain physics) I'm willing to give it a try."

I did not realize that information theorists had such refined senses of humor.

"There is no clear demarcation line between quantum mechanics and classical physics." Old audiophile expression

Be it sight, sound, the smell, the touch.
There's something,
Inside that we need so much,
The sight of a touch, or the scent of a sound,
Or the strength of an Oak with roots deep in the ground.
The wonder of flowers, to be covered, and then to burst up,
Thru tarmack, to the sun again,
Or to fly to the sun without burning a wing,
To lie in the meadow and hear the grass sing,
To have all these things in our memories hoard,
And to use them,
To help us,
To find...(evil laughter)

Geoff Kait
Machina Dramatica

toledo
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iosiP wrote:

Costin said "Michael, my speakers are 2.5m apart and I can move at less than 1m from the speaker line and still not hear them as individual sources. The only problem is the tonal balance, but then this depends on the lateral dispersion."

I think this dovetails quite nicely with current discussion on the effects of the room and it's furnishings.

You indicated you were able to effect a change to the soundstage imbalance from the open doorway on right with the globe on the left. Small change .. Big result.

The room and its furnishings are one of the biggest contributors/inhibitors to overall presented tone and soundstage balance.

michael green
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So right! and the next step

Hi Toledo, thanks for your comment. If people got this, their listening would improve by huge margins.

Which brings me to the next field trip.

How do you know if your system is fighting the room?

There's a simple test to take to tell you if you have the potentially right speakers and if they are sitting in the right place in your room. I say potentially because this could also mean something else is wrong with your system other than the speakers. Play the music and stand in front of your speakers (get as close as you can before the music jumps in them should be a foot or 2), now walk around your speakers to hear if they sound the same or not. If your speakers are fighting the room you will hear the sound change, if your room is playing the speakers you will be able to walk around them (1 or 2 feet away) and hear very little change. If the speakers are being played by the room you will also when you are off to the side or behind them be able to see a soundstage. If your speakers are fighting the room you are missing tons of music, if the room is playing with the speakers you should not have any off axis problems. Having off axis dips, pitching or distortion is a bad system design and something is not right somewhere in the chain.

This is a huge point and a major flaw many get trapped in. Your room and your speakers should be playing off of each other. If they aren't the sound pressure that should be growing is not up to it's full gain and this means part of the content is distorted.

Most speakers that have heavy dampening are built to play in room sizes and conditions they are designed in. You can have the greatest heavy speakers in the world but if they are not in a room that is some what similar to the designers they may not be performing up to par. This is important with all speakers but deadly important with speakers using more than 2 drivers. If you have multiple driver speakers again walk up to them, put your ear at each driver level (tweeters included) and move around that speaker at the level of that driver. It should not get weird (going out of pitch) sounding. If it does your speaker is out of tune with your room.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

michael green
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naturally play

When your looking for a system or pair of speakers you might be in for a surprise. I know people hate to admit buying the wrong thing, but the truth of it is there are many speakers and systems out there that don't like the room they are in. A stereo system should not be a constant fight. Man do I ever get the stories of the high end audio nightmares. I bought these great speakers and now something is wrong with my amp, or my system is so revealing now I can't play the music. I hear it all, and there is usually a truck load of defense on someones favorite component, or a story about how they can't move around their furniture, or the "it sounds good when I play this but horrible when I play that now, it use to play that recording great but not any more". It just keeps rolling on and so do the people who claim their systems do it all. Well once you get past all of that or if you haven't started yet, take a look at the gamebook first. Complicated systems are complicated to make sound good. If you think your going to setup a complicated system and are not setting up your room as a "real" listening room, be prepared to defend your system....a lot. The only one fooled is the listener themselves.

your not going to cheat sound pressure

If you have racks and equipment on the front wall and your listening nearfield and have the speakers out far enough away from that front wall you might have a chance for the waves coming out of the speakers to form and stimulate the room, but if you have speakers against the same wall with the equipment and racks, ouch, your in for a battle. That's your front stage pressure zone and if you mess it up you could easily loose a lot of the musics body. You could also be creating an off axis problem for your speakers, especially bigger ones.

Once in a while I will see a plaster room like the rack against that front wall to help with audio glare caused by the walls, but more cases than not having the speakers and racks on the same wall is a no no.

here's how you can help this, maybe

If you have to have them on the same wall try moving the rack system out 18" from the wall. I know I hate giving exacting formulas too. But, a usual rack height is 36" and 18" (half of the rack height) is most of the time enough to get that pressure building again. Just an idea, not writen in stone.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

michael green
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a dedicated room

Thanks Guys! For those who are sending messages I appreciate it :)

"michael what kind of setup do you like"

I like them all cause it gives me a chance to play, but I focus a lot on the guys who have spare rooms. A lot of guys have a spare bedroom upstairs and these make for perfect listening rooms. I'm not crazy about the sound of carpet so if you can get rid of it or make yourself a floor on top of the floor you will be much further ahead. If you have drywall on wood studs, don't put that extra layer of drywall on, don't do it. This is an audio myth and will make your sound much worst. "where do they get these guys lol". The best sounding rooms are the ones that give tone (flex). Your listening to tones and you should have a room that should recreate these with as much range as you can get. So if you have a drywall wood stud room with wood floors your ahead of the game. If you have plaster walls, consider the expense of adding the studs and dry wall. It will cost way less than a component and you'll get 3 times the return. If you want tunable walls that's yet another level in music.

Ok, so you have your room and you've been reading this so you've been paying attention to how to tell if your speakers are the right ones and all that stuff. Well time to start listening and here's what I like. I like using the back wall as my tonal support system. You may be a midfield guy and that's cool but for right now I'm going to layout extreme nearfield.

At one time I was the biggest audiophile rack company so believe me when I tell you this, if you can go with a simple setup and not have to use a rack but instead platforms you are going to smoke a system that is using racks. I have been setting up 2 component systems over the last few years that distroy multiple component systems. Keep in mind I'm talking spare bedrooms here that range from 9 x 9 to 14 x17 rectangular. In my setup I have a stripped reciever and stripped CD player and that's it. It sits on a low profile platform that frees the space in front of me for acoustical tuning. One interconnect, that's it, an amp, a player two speakers sized to the room and it makes magic. You could put the most reviewed high end audio stock product in this room and this little system will, has and does smoke it. There is no reason why yours would not do the same. Amps and simple players have come so far that they compete easily against the higher priced ones and for my money beats up on the over built products. As with every claim though that goes on in this industry it's good for you to challenge what I'm saying, and I invite you to do so and read what the people who have converted their systems say as well. In fact the exact system I use is being used by people on this forum as well as on mine and I'm sure they will be happy to give you a report and history of where they have been and why they have gone to these simple low mass tunable systems.

Stop a minute and look through system galleries. What do you see? Speakers on either sides of racks close to the front wall. Now picture speakers not distorted by a rack and place in the most energized places in the room. For me it's extreme nearfield with the speakers pulled right up on me as far apart as they can stand and me using that front area for acoustical tuning with floorstanding acoustical products and or other tuning toys. Oh my, that's serious! Cleaning up that space gives my speakers a chance to work and my space a chance to become the speaker. You could sit in one of these setups and produce soundstages that will blow your mind in resolution, detail and 3D layering that typical setups can't even start to do.

Go back to looking at those galleries. See those huge hoses connecting the products. Picture a single low mass connector, just one instead of all that mess. See those big boxes. Picture just two simple music producers, two power supplies, that's it. No drain on your electric or confused pull from multiple supplies. Your whole system is on one duplex plug, that's it. Now if you like to sit there and watch equipment that's a different hobby, what I'm talking about is making yourself a no nonsense music machine without any of the fat. Nothing extra to distorted the sound. You sit in this listening chair and hear everything and have the ability to change the sound to any flavor you want. You are also able to play music that could never be played on and over built system.

Kinda gives a little different picture to the listening hobby doesn't it? It goes from looking at stuff to listening to a place that is custom designed to play musical notes. Instead of throwing speakers in a room and hoping, you design the speaker to fit the space ,and make it able to tune into that space. No more plug and play, no more cables all over and boxes built like tanks and sounding the same way. We're talking about making a system where every thing has a purpose and design. A formula one not a dump truck.

This is what I call high end audio. It's not a display of equipment, it's a fine tuned musical instrument. It's not a place for music storage but a place of music listening. A place of more wood than metal and plastic.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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Room corners

Michael Green wrote,

"This brings me to the most important part of the room, the upper corners."

For the upper corners I have employed an number of things, including Corner Tunes and Golden Sound Acoustic Discs. Not that they are the only things that one might consider, what with the advent of tiny bowl resonators, crystals, etc. Sometimes a Mpingo disc in just the right spot can do wonders for the sound. One thing I've noticed, speaking of room corners, is that the sound pressure levels are much higher in room corners than the average level in the room, in case that's not obvious to the casual reader. In fact, it's a lot like having speakers in all corners of the room competing with the sound of the actual speakers! A Radio Shck SPL meter can be emplyee to determine the locations of peaks and standing waves and echoes in the 3 D space of the room and would you believe the sound pressure levels can be as much as 6-8 dB higher in room corners than the average level in the room? And I don't think I need to tell anyone how many multiples 6-8 dB represents.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
Advanced Audio Concepts

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Corner and midseam tuning

The upper corners are the starting point, the next place are the midseams. If you measure halfway from floor to ceiling where wall meets wall or half why from wall to wall where the walls meet the ceiling you will find your next spot for room loading. Corners first then the midseams. These areas are your rooms volume controls. In a rectangular room you have 12 of them. 4 upper corners, 4 mid-corners (half way between floor and ceiling) and 4 upper midseams. If you gain control of these pressure origin zones you can do a lot of sound shaping and make things a lot easier for your speakers and your amps.

michael green
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michael green wrote:
michael green wrote:

The upper corners are the starting point, the next place are the midseams. If you measure halfway from floor to ceiling where wall meets wall or half why from wall to wall where the walls meet the ceiling you will find your next spot for room loading. Corners first then the midseams. These areas are your rooms volume controls. In a rectangular room you have 12 of them. 4 upper corners, 4 mid-corners (half way between floor and ceiling) and 4 upper midseams. If you gain control of these pressure origin zones you can do a lot of sound shaping and make things a lot easier for your speakers and your amps.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Back when I had speakers (Fultons) and when I mapped out my room with the SPL meter, I found more peaks and standing waves and echo locations than you could shake a stick at. And they were all amenable to one type of treatment or another. Other than upper room corners, the most important locations were first reflection points on both sides of the room, the area in front of and between the speakers on the floor, at about a forty five degree angle from the speakers toward the side walls on the floor, the area directly above the top of the speaker cabinets, the area behind the speaker on the rear wall between the speakers, the area behind the listener somewhere on the rear wall, and as I already mentioned the lower room corners that can be handled with crystals and acoustic discs, the little fluttery ones.

One thing I noticed was that tube traps and other corner treatments were sometimes more effective, a lot more, when not placed exactly in the corner but off to one side maybe as far as foot or two away from the corner, it all depends on where the actual sound pressure peak is measured.

In the locations where I found high sound pressure levels around the room I used a number of devices to Absorb/Dissipate the unruly sound pressure - tube traps, home made Helmholtz resonators (the big one was a 15' long S shaped monster), crystals of various types and sizes, Mpingo discs, little acoustic resonators that flutter in the presence of acoustic waves, tiny little bowls, Corner Tunes and Echo Tunes. Everything except the kitchen sink. It should be pointed out, and I think I mentioned it somewhere else, the walls vibrate like drum heads and really should be damped somehow, Marigo dots, at least. Not to mention Glass windows can generate horrendous amounts of HF noise. I haven't even begun to address those pesky peaks and standing waves that are not located on room boundaries but out in the 3D space of the room.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Dampening of musical instruments

Let's do a quick test and see where it goes.

Take any musical instrument and play it.

Take the same musical instrument and apply dampening material to the resonant areas of the instrument body. What do you hear.

The room is the largest instrument body in a system ... Let it sing like a Free Bird ( where's my skynyrd )

Hint: it's all about shaping the sound pressure not putting holes in it.

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dampening

Yep, I think it's a really bad idea to deaden the walls. Control them yes, deaden them no. I have a client that happens to have one of my rooms and next to one of the other guys rooms where it is dead (over built walls) and to play music in the two is shocking. The over built room is nothing but pitchy sounding and very out of tune, even your voice sounds really bad in there, like someone put your voice in a blender. He was pretty amazed at how screwed up the "....." next to the tunable room. We've done this test many times but it's nice to find a hobbyist do it completely independent than us.

Again this is a case of listening and knowing. When I do a room, I don't start throwing stuff at it. That's a really bad approach. Each room has to be voiced with care. For example, another one of my guys told me about these bowl things so when I got there to his place we did a before and after. When you put the bowl in it stuck out like a sore thumb adding a brittle sound to the music and slightly pitchy. It may indeed work in some rooms, but the 3 I have tried now the results were the same. A difference yes, a good one well "?" we didn't experience anything but glare and frequency grouping, but maybe this is something someone likes who knows. Once more this is a case where people get attracted to a change over a serious listening session that one lives with where you can sense things that give a plus maybe but also a minus. I also want to address dot type products. Any dots including my own are recording sensitive because of how they work. So if your going to adjust them every recording then this might be a cool thing but if you have tried to do this for every recording like we did it got old pretty fast. Dots, any dot type products or DIY's act like capos on a guitar. One song it might be the right setting or good for the song and the next completely out of pitch for the song. Picture these as putting your finger on a string of an instrument, that's what your doing in your room using these. Things are fine if you keep playing the same song after tuning but when you change programs things get screwy fast. It's just the nature of these types of tweaks, and I make them too, but it is understood that these are meant for playing specifics. If your wanting a product that is able to adjust like a PZC you might get a lot further in the tuning department rather than a fixed approach. Fixed go basic, tune go variable (full range variable).

A big problem with tuning is people indroduce things that are a pitch or focusing on only a small range, this will screw you up long term. You want to go full range in your tuning. As Toledo says open that baby up don't shut her down.

michael green
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Over dumping
toledo wrote:

Let's do a quick test and see where it goes.

Take any musical instrument and play it.

Take the same musical instrument and apply dampening material to the resonant areas of the instrument body. What do you hear.

The room is the largest instrument body in a system ... Let it sing like a Free Bird ( where's my skynyrd )

Hint: it's all about shaping the sound pressure not putting holes in it.

There appears to be a disconnect somewhere, not sure where. When you (well, actually Michael, but I assume you agree with him) say you are all FOR treating upper room corners and wall seams but are NOT for treating the walls themselves we have a big problem. Treating the upper corners by whatever method you deem fit simply attenuatesor dissipates or damps the acoustic energy, no? And if you'll pardon my saying so the sound pressures in the corners and seams are just another kind of mechanical energy. So, how can you be FOR treating upper corners but AGAINST treating the walls? Both the corners and the walls, because they are producing unwanted acoustic energy (in the air), need to be damped. So, it's not that you're "deadening" the sound by damping the walls, you are reducing the unwanted acoustic waves that are produced by vibrating walls. You know, to reduce comb filter effects. Not to be confused with cold gafilte fish. Now, I'm not saying the walls have to be vibrating very much as the total energy is proportional to the area, no? Can damping can be overdone in some cases, I don't think anyone's denying that. Even Acoustic Revive goes to great pains to point that out on their web site referring to their smokey quartz crystals for use on room walls, that when the sound goes south you have probably engaged in "over-dumping." For those unfamiliar Acoustic Revive is a Japanese high end tweaks manufacturer. The smokey quartz crystals, like wood, are acoustic resonators.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Diabolical

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hold on there buck-0

Geoff

When was the last time you looked at my site? I treat every area of the room down to the inch. You are stepping way off the cliff on this one my friend ,and people have been very polite to you in trying to let you know when your stepping outside of your expertise, but you keep throwing out statements that are missleading. I would back up just a little and take a look before jumping this far out there. I do the RT Pillows, Sound Shutters, PZC's (pressure zone controllers), Space Cones, all on wall and floorstanding versions. I do Wall Boards, Tuned Floors as well as Tunable Rooms with wall adjustments every 16" on center. I do Ceiling Clouds and custom Pressure Point Tuning Devices so hold on when trying to put me in a box ok? Please don't go saying I'm against treating anything cause I treat everything. If you bothered to read through this you would see I've been doing things step by step during which you and others keep jumping in the middle of with side tracks and diversions, rudely I might add. But don't go comparing your level of tuning against mine or as I said before it will end up in a showdown. And I "will" smoke you!

So please before making a statement like "So, how can you be FOR treating upper corners but AGAINST treating the walls?" you do your homework. I do treat both but not randomly and half A**ed, or with some audiophile BS from guys who don't even have a room setup for listening like yourself. So I ask you politely again to make observations based on your own listening experiences but don't come up and make statements that are totally not true. I've done far more tuning and tweaking than any designer in the history of this biz (and have been noted for it) so please do your research before throwing things out to me and others who deserve more care with their sound.

I welcome people to come up and see what I have done www.tuneland.info and http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ and if there is a disagreement or challenge I will be happy to tell anyone if I have tested these points before and what the conclusions were. I also am happy to try things others have that I haven't. I take this very serious cause I don't want and never have wanted to miss anything. But I won't tolerate dart throwing, which only comes from people who are non-doers. If you or anyone was doing what I do you would and they do come to the same conclusions as myself, so I don't buy this ramdom BS stuff. If your going to make statements you should put on your ears first.

Sorry for being tough but the BS is very thick in this industry and I'm one who doesn't put up with it, nor do I want to be associated with it. If someone wants to do a test session we set that up and let it be what it is. You've seen this in magazines and on Tuneland and on TV. I try to be as fair as possible and care for every note played. If I haven't done it I say so and then go do it. I'm here to help the process not continue to see it on it's downward spiral, or stuck in audio circles. I know to many some of the things I say are different from what they are use to like variable tuning vs fixed. I get it, all change takes time and is hard for any industry. I lot of toe testing has to happen for people to get comfortable, that's what Tuneland has done "the toe testing", now it's just a matter of sharing.

But what would be nice of you is to do your own thing, where people could appreciate your style wit and own experiences, and not step in with statements that are only there to add mudd to a perfectly clear pond. If you have questions cool lets talk them through, tests cool lets do them, but constant interuptions with false statements are only going to cause the industry to move backward and not forward. I would prefer you to say "thank you michael for all your research and development" as is what I am use to, or some type of challenge, but not off the wall comments that are based on you wanting to cause disruptions so you can hear yourself talk.

How many more times are you going to cause a stall while you present things that you yourself are not actively listening to Geoff? It's hard enough when someone comes up with their temporary fixed solutions, but at least they are actively listening and on explorations path. If you don't ask, if you don't listen, if you have nothing to challenge with then why oh why do you throw these statements out without thought or substance. You need your own phpBB dude.

Please understand I don't dislike you, I just don't know what it benefits to do this. Wouldn't it have been much easier to ask "michael do you treat the wall also?"

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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learning acoustics

"Both the corners and the walls, because they are producing unwanted acoustic energy (in the air), need to be damped."

This is a misleading statement. All the parts of the room and what is in it are what you hear. If you create distortion that's what you will hear. If you create your room to be a natural amplifier it will have no distortion. People who dampen the room dampen the music content. People who control the room allow the music content to play.

michael green
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You guys started without me.

You guys started without me. I gotta quit my job!

Geoffrey, Geoffrey, Geoffrey .. what are we going to do with you.

I was planning on writing a post to highlight the common ground between our approaches as we have tried in past posts.

But why bother as you seem to be here to pick a fight.

Why dont you read up on our approach so you can form a more informed viewpoint and actually discuss the differences. ... we know what your approach is because we have tried it.

Comb filtering due to vibrating walls? I think I would be more concerned with suppressed frequencies from absorptive dampening than any cancellations due to timing irregularities excited by a vibrating wall.

I have been meaning to ask, why did you move to headphone listening?

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your killin me

Toledo

We have got to make a reality show out of this.

"I have been meaning to ask, why did you move to headphone listening?" lol OMG lol, I'm dyin. This makes it all worth while. Ok get this.

Cameras are rolling, here's Geoff ready to pull all this stuff out of his hat sitting at his computer waiting to jump in about setups of rooms and the question comes up "I have been meaning to ask, why did you move to headphone listening?". Geoff turns, looks at headphones, looks on screen at wikipedia, typing comb filtering. Commercial break "Dr Dre Beats" headphones with Lebron playing one on one with Geoff , Geoff looks to camera, close up, "best room I've ever heard", pull back to dunk. Fade to Lebron "that dude can play", end commercial to see Geoff typing away with big smile on face "I'll show these guys".

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Michael,

Michael,

Don't think I can beat that ;)

We could use a re-invented retro Maxell tape ad with Geoff wearing headphones and instead of his hair blowing back ... {insert graphic}. This would be good for a few different ad runs.

Or or or we could spin off into a soap series "The music of our lives" for a more serious reflective Geoff.
Or or or ....

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the opening scene

Geoff spinning on turntable adjusting the cartridge....got it....no.....got it....no.....got it this time.....no.....

michael green
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What do you do for window resonance frequencies?

I've been meaning to ask about this. Is there a simple solution?

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two answers for windows

Hi Catch

There are two answers. One the DIY one. Take a 2 x 4 and put it across the window (make it a tight fit), wedge a piece of good sounding wood between it and the glass. Or visit http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ me and we'll hook you up.

I hope that wasn't an ad. The ones we make sound really nice and you can adjust the tone.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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You had a question?

Toledo asked,

"I have been meaning to ask, why did you move to headphone listening?"

Well, that's an excellent question. And right on que. There were a number of reasons I abandonded my Fulton speakers for a headphone set-up. One of the main reasonS, since you ask, is to avoid the rather obsessive disorder disorder involved with room acoustics and soundstage that some folks seem to be afflicted with. Another big reason was to explore the purity of sound that headphone listening affords, not to mention the possibility of developing new audio devices and tweaks which, if I can be so bold, has worked out like a champ. Since I started putting together my current headphone system I have stumbled on 5-10 MAJOR problems inherent in CD playback. Which by the way illustrates that focus on the room problems/issues, the importance of which nearly everyone acknowledges, ignores the problems I'm referring to. When someone says, "I treat everything," I understand he's just being argumentative or possibly posturing. He has no idea what the term ACTUALLY means...

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Geoff,

Geoff,

Of course the question was on cue. You poke and prod and have switched to a proxy fight. What did you expect.

You have charted your path and good for you. If this brings you musical satisfaction, works for me.

I, like others, have decided to stay with a room based system and work with alternate approaches after years of trying more standard methods.

For me, it was a simple decision to be able to enjoy all my music. It is a simple goal which I am getting closer to than I ever did using my older systems (please don't insinuate I was doing it wrong.)

You have decided to focus on cd tweaks, component isolation and dampening which apply to headphone listening. Stick with those areas. Any other acoustic areas do not apply.

As for you argumentative and disingenuous "I treat everything" comment, cd and other tweaks have been discussed and may provide some benefits but do not address the overall problems preventing me and others from enjoying all types of music.

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I invite you again

Geoff, I'm very sorry you feel that way. I can only invite you to come experience for yourself. We have been talking about puting a new facility in Vegas for people to visit and explore. We're hoping to have it up in 2016 in time for the CES. We will also have one in Minnesota the follwing year. For now we have been using the one in Chicago. Hopefully there will be tunable rooms for people to visit again before long Chicago, Lacrosse, San Diego, Vegas, and maybe even over seas. I do have people visit here but I am packed inside and out with T-room projects and the new Tunable Speaker products, so I'm not crazy about folks coming through my mess. After the products are up and going maybe I could put a temp T-room in my workshop. But, as I said before we look at the listening as being the proof.

As far as this comment, "I treat everything," I understand he's just being argumentative or possibly posturing. He has no idea what the term ACTUALLY means..."

I don't think you would say this if you knew me and what we do so this kind of stuff I need to just blow off. Not to be rude, and now I feel bad that we tried to joke with you, cause I can tell you really don't have any idea who we are or what we're doing, and the seriousness in which we do it.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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Argumentative

I feel obliged to point out your statement is false, the one that CD tweaks, dampening and isolation apply only to headphone systems. I hate to point out the obvious.

You wrote,

"As for you argumentative and disingenuous "I treat everything" comment, cd and other tweaks have been discussed and may provide some benefits but do not address the overall problems preventing me and others from enjoying all types of music."

Yeah, right. How convenient for you to dismiss 30 years of developing and listening to speaker systems. Let's pretend.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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"There you go again" ...

"There you go again" ... misquoting and not making much sense.

"12 Angry Men" ... great movie, by the way.
Am I to assume you are the level headed Henry Fonda and I am the angry man unwilling to accept alternatives .. nice projection.

Have a good day, sir.

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Memory fail?
toledo wrote:

"There you go again" ... misquoting and not making much sense.

"12 Angry Men" ... great movie, by the way.
Am I to assume you are the level headed Henry Fonda and I am the angry man unwilling to accept alternatives .. nice projection.

Have a good day, sir.

Uh, you wrote,

"You have decided to focus on cd tweaks, component isolation and dampening which apply to headphone listening. Stick with those areas. Any other acoustic areas do not apply."

To which I responded, those things all apply to any type of system, including speaker systems. Does that refresh your memory?

Yeah, I'M the one who's projecting. :-)

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Unbelievable

Are you really serious that you are unable to understand that full statement and the reference to you as a headphone listener and which tuning/tweaking areas are applicable to you as ... guess ... a headphone listener.
Wow.

Fine ... you win ... I lose ...

Let's both quit the bickering, shall we.

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Other acoustic areas do not apply
toledo wrote:

Geoff,

Of course the question was on cue. You poke and prod and have switched to a proxy fight. What did you expect.

You have charted your path and good for you. If this brings you musical satisfaction, works for me.

I, like others, have decided to stay with a room based system and work with alternate approaches after years of trying more standard methods.

For me, it was a simple decision to be able to enjoy all my music. It is a simple goal which I am getting closer to than I ever did using my older systems (please don't insinuate I was doing it wrong.)

You have decided to focus on cd tweaks, component isolation and dampening which apply to headphone listening. Stick with those areas. Any other acoustic areas do not apply.

As for you argumentative and disingenuous "I treat everything" comment, cd and other tweaks have been discussed and may provide some benefits but do not address the overall problems preventing me and others from enjoying all types of music.

That's weird, I have at least eight products that address room acoustics. None of my products are specifically for headphone systems.

Would I insinuate you were doing anything wrong?

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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what people do

As I always say talk is something that anyone can do. Going back through some of the threads I see a pattern. Some making statements but not willing to take it as far as listening. To me this speaks volumes and states loudly the truth. Also the part that I keep needing to go back to are someones own words.

"There is no doubt that speakers, when I had them, are much more capable soundstage-wise than headphones; that's certainly one of the big challenges with headphones - to get as big and open and transparent and "realistic" a soundstage as possible."

this again is Geoff talking

He's saying that "speakers are much more capable soundstage -wise". That says to me he is not able to (with his headphones) get the whole soundstage.

Then he says "that's certainly one of the big challenges with headphones - to get as big and open and transparent and "realistic" a soundstage as possible." So he's saying that "no doubt" speakers do more and then follows it up with the challenges that headphones have in competing against the "much more capable soundstage".

To me this isn't about which is better or worse, it's about someone A) who doesn't have an in room system B) saying an in room system is much more capable. This says that a designer is making judgements for people that isn't actively "doing" in room listening, and the listening he is doing, is not as good as in room listening.

When I look at a lot of folks in this industry, and some who have bought in, and are now stuck. This is the type of logic they use to reinforce their position. "when I had speakers" and "6 years ago". This is scary to me as I can't imagine one day without the active testing as all can see me doing. For me it's not what people say but what people do. I think we all are seeing this on these pages and as painful as it is may be it's good that some of these people are exposing themselves as not being as quite up on the game as they are claiming. Or are showing where they are at within limits. When it comes to me and the tune and the facts are in, the one thing the industry knows is I "AM" a doer. People can try to put whatever spin they would like but all they have to do is click on www.tuneland.info and http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ and see that over 120,000 people have read about "the tune". 18 people as I write this are reading about "the tune" right now. Many of these people are starting to move away from the old "what they thought" and are moving to something they can do. I totally and absolutely encourage people to try it all (meaning any tweak or piece of equipment) they want to. Free country right. You will hear me say "this is my experience" with the tweaks, but I'm not here or anywhere to throw road blocks infront of "doers". I am however in a position that I need to stay true to the findings and the people that are finding "freedom" with their audio systems.

Listeners deserve to have better listening available! This is why I had all the reviews I have, and why many are using my products and why I'm here now after refining the design of the different parts of this industry. It's time to move people to a more flexible High End Audio. I'm not saying that these pieces of equipment that have been built in the past are not great if a person can mate them to a room or conditions. What I am saying is that this has been a challenge for the industry and I have found why. I haven't been beating on the door for these last years as I feel the industry needed to take it's course it's way. What I have been doing though is exploring the audio signal and making sure I had the answers before beginning the next push. The clients I had and have are people who wanted to go beyond and when they tried tuning this provided them a way to do this.

Why this would upset anyone is way beyond me. The only reason I can see is because they are really "not doing". If they "DID" tune they would come to the same results that all of us who are tuning "DO". I see and for many years have seen a lot of people finding a platform in this hobby (many well known) to be experts "in their own minds" and have fooled many listeners. All you have to do is look at the huge audio graveyards of all the products that have been close but not quite. These products (components and speakers)are failed atempts? Lets again be honest guys, how many times have you been someones prototype. You buy a product and two years later it is old news. Do you not see the problem? Lets flip this script. You buy a guitar and it gets better with age, how is it that this industry has to sell you something new, like the guy who has to buy the new model car every year so people can see he has the latest lines (shape). Stop and look at the audiophile journey. You have bought more audio equipment than cars. You keep trading to a new model that is giving you a different picture, but be honest it is not neccessarily a better one. We hear a different sound and are attracted because it's more recent and has the current reviews and status, but is this really the hobby you started with? Most of the people I talk to came to this hobby to be able to play their music at a higher level of performance. None of them came to this hobby to "NOT" be able to play their favorite music. They, you and I came here to see how good our music is, to get into it's depth, it's meaning, it's performance. If the best this hobby can do is say "my system is so revealing it shows how bad these recordings are" my friend you are in the wrong hobby. You should have a system that shows how good these recordings are not how bad. Who sold you this false bill of sell? And why are you standing for it, and even throwing money at it? Again, I don't want to be speaking out of line, open your audio closet and view the graveyard for yourself, or see how many times you have used AudioGon because you were sure you had found it. Or ask your wife how many times the UPS man has been to your door.

Guys, I'm listening to a $129.00 system (electric components), doesn't this make you the least bit curious? A guy who owned some of the most expensive high end audio equipment in the world, and has designed the most revealing audio rooms in the world and he is choosing these products over the big dollar ones. Aren't you wondering why? Why would he choose these components to make the best sounding most flexible systems in the entire hobby? Is he over stating his hand? Come listen or try it yourselves and find out. What have you got to loose but pride by taking your spare room and making it tunable and putting it up against your high end products? Am I attacking high end products? No, I'm attacking their lack of flexibility which you all have experienced.

There's more, and when Geoff or whoever are done disrupting I'm going to share it with you.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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Headphones

Michael wrote,

"As I always say talk is something that anyone can do. Going back through some of the threads I see a pattern. Some making statements but not willing to take it as far as listening. To me this speaks volumes and states loudly the truth. Also the part that I keep needing to go back to are someones own words.

"There is no doubt that speakers, when I had them, are much more capable soundstage-wise than headphones; that's certainly one of the big challenges with headphones - to get as big and open and transparent and "realistic" a soundstage as possible."

this again is Geoff talking

He's saying that "speakers are much more capable soundstage -wise". That says to me he is not able to (with his headphones) get the whole soundstage.

Then he says "that's certainly one of the big challenges with headphones - to get as big and open and transparent and "realistic" a soundstage as possible." So he's saying that "no doubt" speakers do more and then follows it up with the challenges that headphones have in competing against the "much more capable soundstage".

To me this isn't about which is better or worse, it's about someone A) who doesn't have an in room system B) saying an in room system is much more capable. This says that a designer is making judgements for people that isn't actively "doing" in room listening, and the listening he is doing, is not as good as in room listening."

Again, the speaker snob rears his ugly head. Headphones offer a (potential) for purity of sound and full range dynamics and intimacy frequently lacking in speaker systems, don't you think? As an audio designer I find headphones are an excellent tool for inquiry, discovery and product development. As I've already pointed out, headphones actually have some important (potential) advantages over speaker systems including, cost, being inherently INDEPENDENT of the room characteristics - no obsessing over the room's acoustic anomalies - crossoverless transducers, simplicity of the system, the ease of providing Class A power, etc. Like CD playback in general headphones are an excellent though perhaps initially imperfect platform for observation, discovery and listening pleasure. And it's the fact that these systems are NOT INHERENTLY PERFECT that makes them so intriguing and challenging, no? What more could you ask for?

Rome was not built in a day. - Old audiophile expression

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

toledo
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Headphones on a low mass system

Geoff,

Just imagine the purity of sound of headphones on a low mass system with unblocked signal path and tuned.
You have peaked my interest.

What a cost effective head rig that would be.

What headphones do you use?

geoffkait
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Low mass system
toledo wrote:

Geoff,

Just imagine the purity of sound of headphones on a low mass system with unblocked signal path and tuned.
You have peaked my interest.

What a cost effective head rig that would be.

What headphones do you use?

You might recall my system is not a mass loaded system. My system employs mass on spring isolation systems of the same basic type used by the project to detect gravity waves, as it turns out. These mass on spring systems effectively reduce the effect of gravity on the components, making them lighter. So, in fact, I have a low mass system. Hel-loo! The signal in my system is unblocked, running at a rate commensurate with signal velocity through copper wire, about 130,000 miles per second. I am using Sennheiser HD600 headphones with Woo Audio WA6 SET all tube headphone amp. My source component is a modded Oppo 103 with all the bells and whistles.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Snoozing

Somebody has been snoozin' while hanging out on the variable tuning threads regarding our definition of a low mass system.

Not to be flippant, but I am interested in hearing how my room rig sounds using headphones. I can tune for the room and also see how the tuning would be different for headphones.
This would be great for the "Turn it down" dis-harmonious interruptions ;)

What cabling are you using?

geoffkait
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Low mass system
toledo wrote:

Somebody has been snoozin' while hanging out on the variable tuning threads regarding our definition of a low mass system.

Not to be flippant, but I am interested in hearing how my room rig sounds using headphones. I can tune for the room and also see how the tuning would be different for headphones.
This would be great for the "Turn it down" dis-harmonious interruptions ;)

What cabling are you using?

I use Analysis Plus Micro Copper Oval IN interconnects, Analysis Plus Pro Power Cable and Nordost Blue Heaven Power Cable all of which are cryogenically treated and burned in on the AudioDharma Cable Cooker. The Sennheisee cable is The Stephan Arts Equinox, also cryo'd.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

geoffkait
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Low mass system
toledo wrote:

Somebody has been snoozin' while hanging out on the variable tuning threads regarding our definition of a low mass system.

Not to be flippant, but I am interested in hearing how my room rig sounds using headphones. I can tune for the room and also see how the tuning would be different for headphones.
This would be great for the "Turn it down" dis-harmonious interruptions ;)

What cabling are you using?

I use Analysis Plus Micro Copper Oval IN interconnects, Analysis Plus Pro Power Cable and Nordost Blue Heaven Power Cable all of which are cryogenically treated and burned in on the AudioDharma Cable Cooker. The Sennheisee cable is The Stephan Arts Equinox, also cryo'd. For those unfamiliar Analysis Plus cables are the ones with hollow conductors.

It's quite possible I was snoozing. :-)

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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HHow do you know they work...
geoffkait wrote:

That's weird, I have at least eight products that address room acoustics.

...since you're not listening to your room?

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Multiple choice
iosiP wrote:
geoffkait wrote:

That's weird, I have at least eight products that address room acoustics.

...since you're not listening to your room?

1. I saw it on an episode of How Things Are Made.

2. I have a team of beta testers.

3. It came to me in a dream.

4. I must have had a speaker system at some time in the past.

5. All of the above.

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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the stage

Setting the stage is a beautiful thing! As these threads roll on I don't really see the need to make this an us or Geoff thing cause these are two different levels of tweaking. One being a fixed higher mass tweak and the other being a low mass tune. One having one sound and the other being variable, able to produce that same sound or any other sound.

I don't want to discount any one sound including Geoff's if that's a place someone once to go. I do personally move away from the fixed deader sound that Geoff is pointing toward but we need to give him his creative space as anyone elses. I do disagree that someone can or should produce in room acoustical products without actively being an in room listener, but again if someone wants to go that route, there's lots of these roads to travel down.

I don't object to being a speaker "snob", and would have to say thanks. As I am a friendly guy, I think I probably am a bit of a snob when it comes to sound. Not a snob about money and the high end audio climbing up the ladder sense as the reviews have pointed out, but a snob about finding all the variables available in audio both pro and home. In the last few days I have recieved wonderful comments about being willing to come here and back in the audiophile mainstream. I'm glad to be here and hope that more of the on lookers will join in and give their voice to this great hobby of ours. Hats off again to Stereophile for making this possible.

This is the hobby. Listening to music and raising our systems to the highest levels of enjoyment possible. I think the more people read they can see my agenda, a variable listening hobby. As good as the plug and play world got it's clear that there is another level to reach. It's going to take work, but the end results are proven. Variable high end audio systems are the next level. How long this takes depends on the people involved. In my visiting here and seeing the responses shows both the resistance to moving forward and the desire others have to take that step. I believe that desire is strong! I believe the listeners in this hobby have great ears and have always been pushing the envelope. Even though we had some patches in getting to know each others positions, I feel the hobbyist is not willing to settle and as when I entered this hoppy with the RoomTune treatments and saw the excitement then, that same excitement is ready to take yet another step closer to the absolute sound.

I've always felt myself as a bit of a cheerleader for the listener, and at the times I thought the industry was getting off track a little hoped the day would come for the listener to say "it's about the music". I really do believe in the core of the listening heart and as this hobby and industry progresses it will be the music first and the form second. Shocking as my proclamation of variable tuning may have seemed, those of you who have taken the time to look can see that the roots are deep and as of 1989 have been tested and aproved by the industries writers and experts. It's been my joy going to these experts and being that cheerleader, but my bigger joy being with listeners. Watching the listener get closer to the artist are my greatest rewards as someone who grew up in the music biz.

Even though there are these little road blocks that come along the way in this movement toward the best sound possible the industry and hobby, pro and home and live will grow closer. Variable tuning will make this happen. Halls, studios and homes are going to become more a family as the hobbyist's will becomes more resolute for perfection. The common bond between the instrument, studio, hall and home is "tuning". The question gets asks all the time and all the way back to the begining of this hobby "How do we get closer".

how do we get closer to live

The answer was not found in tech sheets, it was not found in making products massive, and it was not found in killing the music. The answer to getting closer to live is doing what live does. Tune the instruments, the halls, the equipment together so that they may act as "one". We have done this and all of you can too. If you have to wait till the dust settles the "tune" is not going anywhere. If this drags on past my days so be it, it doesn't change. If it takes the collective will of the audiophile and engineer years and decades the answer will still be there when they wake up. All you have to do is ask yourselves one question. It's a two parter, why does every recording sound different, and why does every system setup sound different? We have tried to fix a variable truth with fixed rules we have made up instead of following natures course. We keep trying to point to one spot and make it fit in a nice little box, and then we wonder why this box is not doing everything we want. No more, the next step is to make that box work on every level, every varied level. The interesting part to tuning is, it is actually easier than the fix form of getting a fixed sound. Someone doesn't have to do anything they don't want. Variable tuning is not a must it's a choice, and having the availability to make that choice or find any thousands of variable positions or setiings. Instead of buying tons of systems you simply dial to your sound on one system.

The only hard part of variable tuning is "the willingness of the fixed thinker".

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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