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Buddha
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Yikes! Setting up our company's health care plan for 2011.

Costs up 20%, benefits down.

Soon, we will have to have proof of insurance but not proof of residency/citizenship!

Tempting to just refuse to present an ID at the ER and say, "I am an undocumented immigrant, from where is none of your business, please provide my health care for free, thank you."

Imagine if the Tea Party promoted that bit of political commentary.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Yikes! Setting up our company's health care plan for 2011.

I'm holding my breath for our next fiscal year. I agree it might be easier to show up at the ER just bleeding out the ass with no papers.

Monty
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Re: Yikes! Setting up our company's health care plan for 2011.

I was going over our options earlier today as well. My wife works for a bank and I'm self-employed so we get our health insurance through her company. We can actually reduce our costs this year, but it will require changing doctors and dentists that we've had for many years. It's one of those out of network things that sky rocketed. We've always paid a little more to keep our same doctors, but it looks like that's changing to a hell of a lot extra. Seriously, it's 10X the cost of using in network providers this year.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Yikes! Setting up our company's health care plan for 2011.

Pay up or face the Obama Federales.

Buddha
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Re: Yikes! Setting up our company's health care plan for 2011.


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I was going over our options earlier today as well. My wife works for a bank and I'm self-employed so we get our health insurance through her company. We can actually reduce our costs this year, but it will require changing doctors and dentists that we've had for many years. It's one of those out of network things that sky rocketed. We've always paid a little more to keep our same doctors, but it looks like that's changing to a hell of a lot extra. Seriously, it's 10X the cost of using in network providers this year.

Part of that, "Everybody can keep their existing plan" BS. Yup, "Y'all can keep 'em, but we will price your old plan out of consideration."

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Yikes! Setting up our company's health care plan for 2011.

I don't think very many people on this board have real jobs. The kind of job where you don't get a refund. I would also bet that most of the folks have defaulted on their student loans years ago. No way they understand the grief they are going to find themselves in with paying for health care. They might as well join us in waiting two years to get a diagnose that we have curable but now terminal diseases. Too little too late. But we pay. We all pay. Morphine is a lot cheaper than treatment. Decision, decisions.

Anyone want to take bets when Jan becomes a ward of the state? It will be cheaper and his Internet will be free as long as he behaves himself. I'll send him a Tivoli Model One. With the antennae cut.

mark evans
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Re: Yikes! Setting up our company's health care plan for 2011.


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Part of that, "Everybody can keep their existing plan" BS. Yup, "Y'all can keep 'em, but we will price your old plan out of consideration."

You nailed it right on head!! For one; insurance companies are nervous about the pre-existing conditions stuff.

Which brings me to another point on pre-existing conditions. Hypothetically you own an auto insurance company...should your insurance company be mandated by the federal government to cover a totaled out vehicle?? The vehicle had pre-existing damage (conditions), right?

How many Insurance companies would go out of business under that kind of insanity?

Adding to that, Joe Blow's insurance premiums would sky-rocket because your insurance company under government mandate, would NOW have to cover "pre-existing" damage (conditions).

But remember, Like Obama told Joe the plumber prior to the election, "I want to spread some of that wealth around...."

...which will destroy private health insurance companies, subsequently resulting in large masses of people with no where to go but to the government for health care.

Of course, this will not effect the political elites in Washington. They have made millions off the backs of taxpayers to pay for their own private insurance. By the which, they put an exemption on themselves in the final bill NOT requiring them to buy government ran healthcare. What a scam!

Mark

Buddha
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Re: Yikes! Setting up our company's health care plan for 2011.

The pre-existing condition exclusion was one of the biggest insurance scams in history.

How it worked:

Employee X has a job and benefits. Employee X gets kidney failure that requires ongoing therapy, but it's covered.

Company Z goes under, or Employee X gets hired by a new company....with benefits.

The new insurance company could say, "Hey, wait a minute. Your kidney failure is a pre-existing condition and is no longer covered. You have to pay for that yourself."

Over time, pretty much everybody would getexcluded by virtue of changing companies.

Even someone who tried to self-insure would never be allowed to change companies without losing benefits.

Insurance companies would also "cycle" their coverage: They'd hike rates for a company that might have some employees with espensive problems, then the employer would change companies and all those pre-existing conditions would no longer be covered! repeat cycle every 5 years.

It got so bad, many states had to legislate to protect people who lost coverage even staying in the same job.

Over time, for anyone who changed jobs, all those pre-existing problems could be excluded, making the insurance company loads or profit for offering crap coverage.

Any person with a chronic condition would become a prisoner of the job they held when they acquired that pre-existing condition.

For many problems, the insurance companies would exclude other things, like eye problems for someone who had been diabetic, because they'd say the eye problems were related to a pre-existing condition.

It wasn't a matter of paying for a pre-wrecked car, it was a matter of the insurance company gaining fiscal benefit while denying care to innocent bystanders who happened to change jobs.

Picture a guy with juvenile onset diabetes who wants to change jobs, but a new health care insurer would be able to basically exclude all benefit for any problem, blaming everything on a pre-existing condition.

Portability was a good idea.

Plus, don't forget, the person being covered actually has to work in order to get the coverage.

On the other hand, imagine how great it would be if insurance companies could get rid of pensioners' plans by underbidding a "competitor's" rates and implementing a new plan, and excluding all those pesky pre-existing conditions!

Hell, our problems would be solved if Medicare were allowed to exclude any problem someone had when they turned 65!

JSBach
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Re: Yikes! Setting up our company's health care plan for 2011.

Simple solution: migrate to Australia.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Yikes! Setting up our company's health care plan for 2011.


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Simple solution: migrate to Australia.

What is this migrate shit? We're not fucking Irish.

mark evans
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Re: Yikes! Setting up our company's health care plan for 2011.


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Simple solution: migrate to Australia.

Dizz,

The two party duopoly has become so corrupt, especially on the democrat side that the only thing that can possibly save this Republic is a revolution at the voting booths.

You know, Us Americans have a spirit of rebellion against tyranny. Wait for the Nov. elections for the outcome of that rebellion

Mark

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Re: Yikes! Setting up our company's health care plan for 2011.


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Simple solution: migrate to Australia.

Dizz,

The two party duopoly has become so corrupt, especially on the democrat side that the only thing that can possibly save this Republic is a revolution at the voting booths.

You know, Us Americans have a spirit of rebellion against tyranny. Wait for the Nov. elections for the outcome of that rebellion

Mark

Did you live here in 2006?

Just curious, rebellions are seeming to take place for the last three Presidents.

Clinton - things went red.

Bush - things went blue.

Obama - see any trend?

I don't think it's the red party philosophy that's got the support, I think it's just become our contrary migration to political demands for "instant gratification."

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Re: Yikes! Setting up our company's health care plan for 2011.


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I was going over our options earlier today as well. My wife works for a bank and I'm self-employed so we get our health insurance through her company. We can actually reduce our costs this year, but it will require changing doctors and dentists that we've had for many years. It's one of those out of network things that sky rocketed. We've always paid a little more to keep our same doctors, but it looks like that's changing to a hell of a lot extra. Seriously, it's 10X the cost of using in network providers this year.

Part of that, "Everybody can keep their existing plan" BS. Yup, "Y'all can keep 'em, but we will price your old plan out of consideration."

As folk noted during the debate on the HC scheme, those promises were simply lies. Anyone reading the language of the actual proposals knew that. Now the bill comes due, unless we can kill it soon and begin to do what the citizens wanted, cutting costs.

Buddha
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Re: Yikes! Setting up our company's health care plan for 2011.


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I was going over our options earlier today as well. My wife works for a bank and I'm self-employed so we get our health insurance through her company. We can actually reduce our costs this year, but it will require changing doctors and dentists that we've had for many years. It's one of those out of network things that sky rocketed. We've always paid a little more to keep our same doctors, but it looks like that's changing to a hell of a lot extra. Seriously, it's 10X the cost of using in network providers this year.

Part of that, "Everybody can keep their existing plan" BS. Yup, "Y'all can keep 'em, but we will price your old plan out of consideration."

As folk noted during the debate on the HC scheme, those promises were simply lies. Anyone reading the language of the actual proposals knew that. Now the bill comes due, unless we can kill it soon and begin to do what the citizens wanted, cutting costs.

But wait! It gets better!

JIMV
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Re: Yikes! Setting up our company's health care plan for 2011.


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Did you live here in 2006?

Just curious, rebellions are seeming to take place for the last three Presidents.

Clinton - things went red.

Bush - things went blue.

Obama - see any trend?

I don't think it's the red party philosophy that's got the support, I think it's just become our contrary migration to political demands for "instant gratification."

I think folk simply want to be left alone...no new taxes, no schemes, no interference...just blissful freedom from government.

Buddha
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Re: Yikes! Setting up our company's health care plan for 2011.


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Did you live here in 2006?

Just curious, rebellions are seeming to take place for the last three Presidents.

Clinton - things went red.

Bush - things went blue.

Obama - see any trend?

I don't think it's the red party philosophy that's got the support, I think it's just become our contrary migration to political demands for "instant gratification."

I think folk simply want to be left alone...no new taxes, no schemes, no interference...just blissful freedom from government.

So, how did you feel about the Patriot Act and this Father....err....Homeland Security Act stuff?

I'm finding myself in agreemant alot with Mark Evans, with a little leaning toward some social safety nets for me that sets us apart.

However, I find the warrantless wiretap and survellaince stuff, the secret renditions, government opacity, et al pretty off-putting. I'd think a conservative would be even more wary of what both parties' Presidents are allowing.

(I said "both," so do spare me the Rush/Beckkk ditto/zombie vilification of only one party.)

JSBach
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Re: Yikes! Setting up our company's health care plan for 2011.


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I think folk simply want to be left alone...no new taxes, no schemes, no interference...just blissful freedom from government.

Tell that to the American poor who die being unable to afford even the most basic medical treatment. Oh yeah - silly me - I forget - in the Great Old US of A the poor get what they deserve. Isn't so called free enterprise wonderful?

mark evans
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Re: Yikes! Setting up our company's health care plan for 2011.


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I don't think it's the red party philosophy that's got the support, I think it's just become our contrary migration to political demands for "instant gratification."

I agree with that perspective 100%

Mark

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Re: Yikes! Setting up our company's health care plan for 2011.

Tell that to the American poor who die being unable to afford even the most basic medical treatment.

The American poor are wealthy compared to inhabitants of third world countries that are under socialized medicine.

Mark

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Re: Yikes! Setting up our company's health care plan for 2011.


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Tell that to the American poor who die being unable to afford even the most basic medical treatment.

The American poor are wealthy compared to inhabitants of third world countries that are under socialized medicine.

Mark


Again we see US political ignorance on full display. Third world countries cannot afford to provide socialized medicine. A more valid comparison can be made with developed nations such as Australia.
The American poor are in a desperate situation compared to the poor in Australia and other developed nations. Australia's fiscal situation, despite running what you people call socialized medicine, is in a far healthier condition than that of the US which, under the wondrous system that triggered the global financial crisis, is close to bankrupt. What puzzles me about this last reality is the delusion the US right has that the Democrats are responsible for the mess the Republicans put them in. Truly weird !
Not only that but the total insanity of tax payer's money being spent in billions to rescue the criminal bastards on Wall Street who accomplished this 'miracle' of free enterprise. Ayn Rand is again rolling in her grave at the contradictions that few of you appear able to see.

jazzfan
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Re: Yikes! Setting up our company's health care plan for 2011.


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As folk noted during the debate on the HC scheme, those promises were simply lies. Anyone reading the language of the actual proposals knew that. Now the bill comes due, unless we can kill it soon and begin to do what the citizens wanted, cutting costs.

I always wondered why during the long and over heated debate on health care reform which lead to the health care act nobody seemed to notice that there was not even one tiny little mention of one of the main reasons for America's rising health care costs, namely that an overwhelming number of Americans are fat, lazy and out of shape slobs who eat all sorts of unhealthy and highly fattening foods.

Why was this simple fact not mentioned? Because the American public "can't handle the truth".

In my mind everything about the whole health care debate and reform is completely worthless and will remain worthless until someone comes along with the courage to tell it like it really is. But that's never going to happen so health care costs, whether under the current worthless reform or under the new and improved Republican plan, will continue to rise and the American public will continue to be fat, lazy, out of shape and in very poor health. And they will pay dearly for their lack of personal responsibility for their own poor health.

The answer to cutting health care costs does not come in pill form nor can it be brought under control unless the American people are willing to lose some weight, get off their big fat rear ends and get into shape.

Buddha
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Re: Yikes! Setting up our company's health care plan for 2011.


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As folk noted during the debate on the HC scheme, those promises were simply lies. Anyone reading the language of the actual proposals knew that. Now the bill comes due, unless we can kill it soon and begin to do what the citizens wanted, cutting costs.

I always wondered why during the long and over heated debate on health care reform which lead to the health care act nobody seemed to notice that there was not even one tiny little mention of one of the main reasons for America's rising health care costs, namely that an overwhelming number of Americans are fat, lazy and out of shape slobs who eat all sorts of unhealthy and highly fattening foods.

Why was this simple fact not mentioned? Because the American public "can't handle the truth".

In my mind everything about the whole health care debate and reform is completely worthless and will remain worthless until someone comes along with the courage to tell it like it really is. But that's never going to happen so health care costs, whether under the current worthless reform or under the new and improved Republican plan, will continue to rise and the American public will continue to be fat, lazy, out of shape and in very poor health. And they will pay dearly for their lack of personal responsibility for their own poor health.

The answer to cutting health care costs does not come in pill form nor can it be brought under control unless the American people are willing to lose some weight, get off their big fat rear ends and get into shape.

Hi, Jazzfan!

I think the main answer to your query is that America has left the age of personal responsibility.

We are becoming a nation of victims.

Not my fault Mickey D's makes me fat.
Not my fault I squirted out 6 kids via 6 daddies.
Not my fault if I have high blood pressure, diabetes, or other (frequently)lifestyle related disease.
Not my fault if I put a ladder on frozen shit in the morning and didn't notice shit gets slippery after it melts and I fell.
Not my fault I was drunk and driving a Porsche I had no business speeding in and wrecked.
It's the system's problem.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: Yikes! Setting up our company's health care plan for 2011.


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I think folk simply want to be left alone...no new taxes, no schemes, no interference...just blissful freedom from government.

Tell that to the American poor who die being unable to afford even the most basic medical treatment. Oh yeah - silly me - I forget - in the Great Old US of A the poor get what they deserve. Isn't so called free enterprise wonderful?

People don't die in America from lack of health care. In fact, the less money you have the better care you receive. People die in America because they don't go to a doctor until they are bleeding out of the ass. They used to have that freedom. Today the poor will receive a fine for not paying for health care. So much for your stupidity on the American way.


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America's rising health care costs, namely that an overwhelming number of Americans are fat, lazy and out of shape slobs who eat all sorts of unhealthy and highly fattening foods.

So? And what? You going to make them eat what? Staples? Good luck. Making people do things you like.

JIMV
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Re: Yikes! Setting up our company's health care plan for 2011.


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I think folk simply want to be left alone...no new taxes, no schemes, no interference...just blissful freedom from government.

Tell that to the American poor who die being unable to afford even the most basic medical treatment. Oh yeah - silly me - I forget - in the Great Old US of A the poor get what they deserve. Isn't so called free enterprise wonderful?

Almost non existent...If you said folk who were financially ruined, I might buy it, but lack of basic medical care...BS.

And someone pays, always...the issue is not care but money...the left simply wants someone else to pay all those silly bills.

mark evans
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Re: Yikes! Setting up our company's health care plan for 2011.

Again we see US political ignorance on full display. Third world countries cannot afford to provide socialized medicine.

Ever heard of the World Health Organization? The pinnacle of rationed care. If you think the W.H.O and the U.N. have been successful in administering health care to these third world regions..your living in another reality altogether.

I've traveled to certain South American villages doing missionary work for my church. The citizens eat dogs and cats and bathe from streams that they piss and shit in..the local government is socialist and or communist and all the wealth is centralized in one spot, the local government. Which is nothing more than an arm of the regional government. It's utterly ridiculous to compare America's so-called poor to these truly impoverished peoples.

But that shouldn't matter.....they have free health care (when the funds will allow). Ever heard of Haiti? Or how about Guyana?

Socialized medicine has proven over the course of time, to be a complete and utter disaster.

Ayn Rand is again rolling in her grave at the contradictions that few of you appear able to see.


Ayn Rand is rolling in her grave at the huge dependency and entitlement class that social progressives have created in this country to buy votes! And of course, the latest 'entitlement' called Obamacare, which is not sustainable but only through progressive taxation and government duress. Ayn Rand would most certainly oppose this current administration with its collectivist approach. She vehemently opposed this type of ideology as she so eloquently wrote about in her books with Leonard Peikoff.

Mark

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Ayn Rand is rolling in her grave at the huge dependency and entitlement class that social progressives have created in this country to buy votes! And of course, the latest 'entitlement' called Obamacare, which is not sustainable but only through progressive taxation and government duress. Ayn Rand would most certainly oppose this current administration with its collectivist approach. She vehemently opposed this type of ideology as she so eloquently wrote about in her books with Leonard Peikoff.

Mark

Why this slavish devotion to Ayn Rand? Did she ever hold public office? Run a corporation? Do anything besides write (like all those liberal academicians I'm pretty sure you hate) and have extra-marital affairs (like many hypocritical pro-marriage right wingers)?

I believe that one of the main complaints about President Obama is that he is not a businessman. Ayn Rand DID NOT run a business and so she and all her writing is worthless.

So please cut out the Ayn Rand spinning in her grave BS because it's completely meaningless.

By the way, anyone can write a completely fictional novel where socialism, Communism, capitalism, fascism or what have you reigns supreme. So get over it and please let's have no more mentions of Ayn Rand and her fiction (NOT FACT or HISTORY).

Buddha
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Re: Yikes! Setting up our company's health care plan for 2011.


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Ayn Rand is rolling in her grave at the huge dependency and entitlement class that social progressives have created in this country to buy votes! And of course, the latest 'entitlement' called Obamacare, which is not sustainable but only through progressive taxation and government duress. Ayn Rand would most certainly oppose this current administration with its collectivist approach. She vehemently opposed this type of ideology as she so eloquently wrote about in her books with Leonard Peikoff.

Mark

Why this slavish devotion to Ayn Rand? Did she ever hold public office? Run a corporation? Do anything besides write (like all those liberal academicians I'm pretty sure you hate) and have extra-marital affairs (like many hypocritical pro-marriage right wingers)?

I believe that one of the main complaints about President Obama is that he is not a businessman. Ayn Rand DID NOT run a business and so she and all her writing is worthless.

So please cut out the Ayn Rand spinning in her grave BS because it's completely meaningless.

By the way, anyone can write a completely fictional novel where socialism, Communism, capitalism, fascism or what have you reigns supreme. So get over it and please let's have no more mentions of Ayn Rand and her fiction (NOT FACT or HISTORY).

I think the Randers just like the fact that Roark blows up shit he thinks is rightfully his. He's an example of the entitlement tantrum of the new right. "My way, or violence."

It's good to have people Google "Ayn Rand atheism" to get an idea about where she stood on Christianity.

Amazing how many Liptonizers (teabaggers) thump while also ditto-ing Rand, who was a vehement atheist.

The Lipton set love to blend faith and politics, but do not notice the irony of their idol's atheism.

jazzfan
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I think the Randers just like the fact that Roark blows up shit he thinks is rightfully his. He's an example of the entitlement tantrum of the new right. "My way, or violence."

It's good to have people Google "Ayn Rand atheism" to get an idea about where she stood on Christianity.

Amazing how many Liptonizers (teabaggers) thump while also ditto-ing Rand, who was a vehement atheist.

The Lipton set love to blend faith and politics, but do not notice the irony of their idol's atheism.

What you label 'irony" I like to call "hypocrisy" and the Teapublican Party does not lack for hypocrisy:

as in President needs to be a businessman except for Ronald Reagan

as in deficit spending is very very bad except when done by a Republican President or Congress.

as in welfare is very very bad except when it's corporate welfare

as in government regulation is very very bad except when removing those regulations would actually serve to increase competition.

I could go on like this for hours but why bother since no Republican even remotely understands the concepts of hypocrisy and irony.

mark evans
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Why this slavish devotion to Ayn Rand? Did she ever hold public office? Run a corporation? Do anything besides write (like all those liberal academicians I'm pretty sure you hate) and have extra-marital affairs (like many hypocritical pro-marriage right wingers)?

I believe that one of the main complaints about President Obama is that he is not a businessman. Ayn Rand DID NOT run a business and so she and all her writing is worthless.

So please cut out the Ayn Rand spinning in her grave BS because it's completely meaningless.

By the way, anyone can write a completely fictional novel where socialism, Communism, capitalism, fascism or what have you reigns supreme. So get over it and please let's have no more mentions of Ayn Rand and her fiction (NOT FACT or HISTORY).

Before you get into full frontal attack mode, understand this:

My response was directed toward Dissily of whom mentioned Ayn Rand rolling in her grave PRIOR to my mentioning of her. Could it have been premature ejubilation on your part thinking you would hammer the evil, wicked, terrible conservative again?

Perhaps in the future you will read the thread IN CONTEXT. Or maybe perhaps in the future I should mention Chairman Mao Zedong, or Engels and Marx to make you feel more comfortable.

Mark

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Re: Yikes! Setting up our company's health care plan for 2011.


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I think the Randers just like the fact that Roark blows up shit he thinks is rightfully his. He's an example of the entitlement tantrum of the new right. "My way, or violence."

It's good to have people Google "Ayn Rand atheism" to get an idea about where she stood on Christianity.

Amazing how many Liptonizers (teabaggers) thump while also ditto-ing Rand, who was a vehement atheist.

The Lipton set love to blend faith and politics, but do not notice the irony of their idol's atheism.

What you label 'irony" I like to call "hypocrisy" and the Teapublican Party does not lack for hypocrisy:

as in President needs to be a businessman except for Ronald Reagan

as in deficit spending is very very bad except when done by a Republican President or Congress.

as in welfare is very very bad except when it's corporate welfare

as in government regulation is very very bad except when removing those regulations would actually serve to increase competition.

I could go on like this for hours but why bother since no Republican even remotely understands the concepts of hypocrisy and irony.

....ahem... more premature ejubilation.. Where have I ever said I was a Republican?

I'm a Libertarian.

Ayn Rand was an Atheist.. Big Deal. What's that got to do with anything? I'm sure Ayn Rand would have no problem with me as a Christian no more than I would have a problem with her being an atheist.

Of course, thats to be expected from progressives. Dividing people based on religious beliefs and or non-beliefs, which is class division.

jazzfan
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My response was directed toward Dissily of whom mentioned Ayn Rand PRIOR to my mentioning of her. Could it have been premature ejubilation on your part?

Perhaps in the future I will mention Chairman Mao Zedong, or Engels and Marx to make you feel more comfortable.

Mark

That may be true for this thread but you mentioned her and her worthless fiction (I keep on repeating things, whether they are true or not, just like the Teapublicans) many, many times before and always with a hint of that slavish devotion she seems to have inspired in her followers.

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....ahem... more premature ejubilation.. Where have I ever said I was a Republican?

I'm a Libertarian.

Libertarian = Tea bagger who doesn't want to be associated with the more crazy aspects of the Tea Party. Not that libertarianism is any les wacky that most of the Tea Party positions but for some reason libertarianism gets a free pass.

See also the old adage:

If it walks like duck, sound like a duck, smells like a duck.....

No, you're a full fledged tea bagger, like it or not so come on down and wallow in the mud instead of trying to hide behind some high minded philosophy which most definitely doesn't work here in the real world.

Buddha
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Ayn Rand was an Atheist.. Big Deal. What's that got to do with anything? I'm sure Ayn Rand would have no problem with me as a Christian no more than I would have a problem with her being an atheist.

So, tell me how the teabag vote would go for a candidate who got up and said, "Keep the church out of the schools....and by the way...I am an atheist."

Yeah, that would fly with the O'Donnell/Palin set.

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Ayn Rand was an Atheist.. Big Deal. What's that got to do with anything? I'm sure Ayn Rand would have no problem with me as a Christian no more than I would have a problem with her being an atheist.

So, tell me how the teabag vote would go for a candidate who got up and said, "Keep the church out of the schools....and by the way...I am an atheist."

Yeah, that would fly with the O'Donnell/Palin set.

Not sure on the national level. But I am of the opinion that it would not be recieved too well.

I can only speak concerning my area tea party organization on the issue of religious affiliation. In my area, we don't give a crap what religious affiliation a candidate is, as long as they are a Constitutionalist.

But like most political groups, not everyone agrees 100% straight down the line on every issue coming down the pipe.

O'Donnel and Palin, WOW could'nt you imagine that ticket!

Vote Christian/Witch

Now that would be diversity on a whole different level

Mark

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No, you're a full fledged tea bagger,

and damn proud of it

Tea party member is the appropriate term, not 'teabagger'

Of course, the term "teabagger" was given to the tea party by leftists that seem to be obsessed with the penis and scrotum for some strange reason. Which brings me to another point concerning Anderson "AC360/DC" Cooper who first dubbed the title for the tea party members...ah it makes sense now.

Mark

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[quote
See also the old adage:

If it walks like duck, sound like a duck, smells like a duck.....

.......it must be a Constitutionalist.

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.......it must be a Constitutionalist.

So that's the new name you would like to use to hide all the outrageous ideas which the Tea Baggers support. Last time I checked the Founding Fathers, those "saints" of the Tea Baggers, actually realized that this "perfect" document known as the US Constitution might occasionally require some modifications and so they put into the Constitution a way to amend it. Now shouldn't fact alone tell you that the Constitution is not a perfect document but more of a continually evolving one which occasionally needs amending. Oh right, the Tea Baggers don't even know what evolution is let alone understand it.

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[quote

the Founding Fathers, those "saints" of the Tea Baggers,

Not saints, but Statesmen. Sorry you don't feel the same about the founders as most patriotic Americans do.

this "perfect" document known as the US Constitution might occasionally require some modifications and so they put into the Constitution a way to amend it.

No problem. Congress has every right to admend it in the House and Senate. You get no argument from me here.

Now shouldn't fact alone tell you that the Constitution is not a perfect document but more of a continually evolving

If it is "continually evolving" then it is not worth the parchment it was written on. It has to be admended NOT interpreted to fit any left-wing or right-wing agenda of the particular moment

Tell you what.... I want to consider my home mortgage contract as "continually evolving", I want it to evolve according to my particular agenda today...So, I'm not paying anymore monthly payments. Do you think that will fly?

Oh right, the Tea Baggers don't even know what evolution is let alone understand it.

color:"blue"] What does Charles Darwin's theory of evolution have to do with the Constitution?

Mark

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....ahem... more premature ejubilation.. Where have I ever said I was a Republican?

I'm a Libertarian.

Libertarian = Tea bagger who doesn't want to be associated with the more crazy aspects of the Tea Party. Not that libertarianism is any les wacky that most of the Tea Party positions but for some reason libertarianism gets a free pass.

See also the old adage:

If it walks like duck, sound like a duck, smells like a duck.....

No, you're a full fledged tea bagger, like it or not so come on down and wallow in the mud instead of trying to hide behind some high minded philosophy which most definitely doesn't work here in the real world.

Why does that argument never apply when one is speaking of loonie Stalinists gathering for a rally or Muslims dead silent when confronted by their folks murders?

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My response was directed toward Dissily of whom mentioned Ayn Rand PRIOR to my mentioning of her. Could it have been premature ejubilation on your part?

Perhaps in the future I will mention Chairman Mao Zedong, or Engels and Marx to make you feel more comfortable.

Mark

That may be true for this thread but you mentioned her and her worthless fiction (I keep on repeating things, whether they are true or not, just like the Teapublicans) many, many times before and always with a hint of that slavish devotion she seems to have inspired in her followers.


I'm not going to bother to argue with your mindless assertion that Rand's fiction is worthless other than acquaint you with the fact that many of us on the left ( And I'm so far further left than Obama he's Attila The Hun by comparison!) have taken Rand's fiction seriously, and not simply because she uses it as her pulpit for Objectivism. I suggest you get hold of Ronald E Merril's "The Mind of Ayn Rand' and digest it. It's the refusal of so many to take Rand seriously that constitutes one of the causes of the mess America is in. You either run a fully free enterprise system and keep government out of peoples lives or adopt a sane form of social democracy ( if you can get over the idiotic US phobia that there's no difference between such systems and communism). The mongrel US mixture of imaginary free enterprise and government intervention that recently gave billions of taxpayers money to criminal private financial institutions would not have happened under any system Rand or a social democrat government approved of.

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You actually believe the Kool-Aid you're drinking? Your version of "tyranny" is such a joke. There IS NO THIRD PARTY! The Tea Party, if it's anything at all, is the just the most right-wing section of the Republican party. You think once a handful of under-qualified wanna-bees show up to Washington everything will change? What are you smoking?

Give those guys six weeks of expensive dinners and lobbyist lunches, and they will be EXACTLY where every rock star ends up: high on there own self-importance and ditch everyone who got them there as soon as they can. Except that in this case I have yet to see a Tea Party candidate who actually brings any perspective or talent to the table. At least most rock stars have to suffer and work hard to get there. These people are no better than try-outs for reality TV: exactly what Sarah Palin has proved to be from the beginning.

Let's just take the Tea Party line of thinking to other professions an see what happens:

"I'm really sick of how much my doctor costs- he's such an elitist jerk with his PHD. and elitist "knowledge". Time to go hire someone who is like me, and down to earth; who takes a "common sense" approach to surgery and not all these wasteful tests! Who needs all that elitist science anyway?!"

"I read the Constitution at LEAST ten times, so I can be your lawyer? You don't need all that "elitist college" stuff to interpret the law- trust me, I understand what the founding fathers meant!"

"Hey, I'm just an ordinary Joe who owns a small business and I can manage at least 20 employees (though I hire a CPA to do our taxes and have an accountant to handle the actual money)! I was class president in High School!I KNOW what our country of 300+ million people need, and it's "common sense" solutions to our vast and sprawling macro-economy: more of the policies of George Bush! Just send me to DC and I'll fix it all!"

You wouldn't hire an unqualified plumber, electrician, dentist or CPA, but you'll vote in people who have nothing more than cheap slogans and down-home speaking skills to run the largest economy on the planet? Good luck with that. It sucks we couldn't fix 8 years of bad policy in two years. I guess the rest of the planet couldn't either- except that socialist country Germany, who actually saves money and buys less (what's up with that?)

I can't wait until all this "tyranny" is lifted off my back in a few months! Gonna have real bitchin' party to celebrate. Gonna hold my breath until then too.

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Again we see US political ignorance on full display. Third world countries cannot afford to provide socialized medicine.

Ever heard of the World Health Organization? The pinnacle of rationed care. If you think the W.H.O and the U.N. have been successful in administering health care to these third world regions..your living in another reality altogether.


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The W.H.O. is NOT a third world country. My point holds.


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I've traveled to certain South American villages doing missionary work for my church.

Don't expect absolution from me

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The citizens eat dogs and cats and bathe from streams that they piss and shit in..the local government is socialist and or communist and all the wealth is centralized in one spot, the local government. Which is nothing more than an arm of the regional government. It's utterly ridiculous to compare America's so-called poor to these truly impoverished peoples.

I don't know who you imagine attempted such a comparison, I didn't.


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But that shouldn't matter.....they have free health care (when the funds will allow).

They seldom do ! ! !

Quote:
Ever heard of Haiti? Or how about Guyana?


Again I'm unsure who you're addressing that remark to but allow me to inform you my personal experience of living in third world countries is extensive although it's never, I'm proud to say, involved attempts at substituting European superstitions , such as Christianity, for local ones. And no, I'm not going to get into a theological discussion here.
"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent"
Acts Ch:17 V:30

Quote:
Socialized medicine has proven over the course of time, to be a complete and utter disaster.

Not in Australia honey.
Ayn Rand is rolling in her grave at the huge dependency and entitlement class that social progressives have created in this country to buy votes! And of course, the latest 'entitlement' called Obamacare, which is not sustainable but only through progressive taxation and government duress. Ayn Rand would most certainly oppose this current administration with its collectivist approach. She vehemently opposed this type of ideology as she so eloquently wrote about in her books with Leonard Peikoff.
Sure, but Rand would be equally horrified at the mongrel mixture of so called free enterprise and government meddling the the Republicans have indulged in. What really puzzles me though is how the criminals who ran Wall St into the ground can continue to assert they believe in free enterprise yet hold out their hands willingly for billions of tax payers money.
Another puzzlement we ponder here in Australian is how Greenspan, a man who claimed to be one of Rand's disciples, could take on the roll of running the Fed' when such institutions would not exist under an Objectivist (Randian?) government.
"God thundereth marvelously with his voice; great things doeth he, which we cannot comprehend" Job: Ch:37 V:5.

Lamont Sanford
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What are you smoking?

ATF buds. You?

I don't know why people get so pissed off at another group of people practicing what the previous people support. Mainly, freedom of expression. Am I the only swinging dick that understands One Tin Soldier? Am I the only one that knows The Hurricane by Bob Dillan is fiction? That Catch-22 should be required reading before junior high school? That Bufford T. Pusser is a real American hero? You people are acting like a bunch of goddamn fucking chimpanzees. I'm trying to be a professional and you idiots are acting like a bunch of goddamn chimpanzees.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IJ6b3E5HYE

So, the question is, what? What?

dbowker
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"I don't know why people get so pissed off at another group of people practicing what the previous people support. Mainly, freedom of expression. Am I the only swinging dick that understands One Tin Soldier? Am I the only one that knows The Hurricane by Bob Dylan is fiction? That Catch-22 should be required reading before junior high school? That Bufford T. Pusser is a real American hero?"

No argument from me about any of those points.

I'm not complaining about freedom of expression, I'm complaining we have a so-called "movement" that has it's tenants based on poor education, narrow-minded answers, and contempt for science and hard earned expertise. A group that would call Catch-22 socialist, and basically are a bunch of whiners who think they are owed something as much as any welfare sponger does.

Think the country is so hard to live in Tea Partiers? Then you must be too lazy and dumb to work a system rated by the Economist Magazine as one of the easiest countries to start and maintain a business and who's per capita is still near the top. Too bad our education is now around 25th. Maybe your "heritage" just doesn't have the right genes for the 21st century, because me and all my "liberal elite friends" with college educations (and were paid for by ourselves too) are doing just fine. Most of us have our own companies, or work independently, and no one I know thinks taxes or the deficit is this country's most pressing problem.

We actually READ books and news about economics, imagine that! A number of us have real business degrees and work really hard to do something with all the freedom supposedly we don't have. We actually have traveled to other countries, seen how things work, and try and think beyond our own little selves when we vote. We actually understand that to turn around a country like this is NOT going to happen over night, and letting rich guys keep more of their money will not make more jobs appear overnight.

When the Wall Street firms had hundreds of billions of cash on hand did they go out and hire thousands more workers, or invest back in the country that made them rich? No? Weird, I though that's how GOP economics was supposed to work. "Let the market do it's thing." How'd that work out?

And back to the topic of health care: I have never had a policy (and I've had "good" ones supposedly) that didn't try (and often succeed) to ration every damn medication, procedure and test they could. A certain upper respitory medication went off patent last year and can now be made as generic: the day that happened EVERY insurance company dropped coverage for it unilaterally. Trouble is, the medication ISN'T being made over the counter yet, but never mind, they save $150 per month now for every person they previously covered. Times must be tough for those guys...

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You actually believe the Kool-Aid you're drinking?

I didn't drink the Obama kool-aid of "hope and change".

Your version of "tyranny" is such a joke. There IS NO THIRD PARTY! The Tea Party, if it's anything at all, is the just the most right-wing section of the Republican party.

as opposed to the most left-wing section of the democrat party? Your point?

You think once a handful of under-qualified wanna-bees show up to Washington everything will change? What are you smoking?

We already have more than a handful of unqualified wanna-bees in Washington, his name is Obama, the community organizer. and the rest of his college professors in his cabinet that have never made a payroll

Give those guys six weeks of expensive dinners and lobbyist lunches, and they will be EXACTLY where every rock star ends up: high on there own self-importance and ditch everyone who got them there as soon as they can.

So your familiar with Harry Reid's 35 years in Washington, Nancy Pelosi, and the congressional black caucus too.

Except that in this case I have yet to see a Tea Party candidate who actually brings any perspective or talent to the table.

ever heard of Marco Rubio? Rand Paul? Michele Bachmann, etc;

At least most rock stars have to suffer and work hard to get there.

most rock stars also know when their brand of music is played out as well..the socialist democrats could learn a thing or two from them.

These people are no better than try-outs for reality TV: exactly what Sarah Palin has proved to be from the beginning.

So, is this an ethics violation?

I remind you of democrats Charlie Rangel, Maxine Waters, Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, etc; etc;

Let's just take the Tea Party line of thinking to other professions an see what happens:

"I'm really sick of how much my doctor costs- he's such an elitist jerk with his PHD. and elitist "knowledge". Time to go hire someone who is like me, and down to earth; who takes a "common sense" approach to surgery and not all these wasteful tests! Who needs all that elitist science anyway?!"

I am a member of my local Tea party and I have yet to hear ANYTHING that remotely identifies with that statement.

"I read the Constitution at LEAST ten times, so I can be your lawyer? You don't need all that "elitist college" stuff to interpret the law- trust me, I understand what the founding fathers meant!"

more of the policies of George Bush!

Obama is guilty of this very thing with his insane spending and wealth re-distribution.

You wouldn't hire an unqualified plumber, electrician, dentist or CPA, but you'll vote in people who have nothing more than cheap slogans and down-home speaking skills to run the largest economy on the planet?

Cheap slogans like.."Hope and Change" perhaps?

Good luck with that. It sucks we couldn't fix 8 years of bad policy in two years.

Especially with the Obama administration continuing the same policies that got us here in the first place called deficit spending to the tune of 3 trillion dollars in less than two years of his presidency.

I guess the rest of the planet couldn't either- except that socialist country Germany, who actually saves money and buys less (what's up with that?)

I can't wait until all this "tyranny" is lifted off my back in a few months! Gonna have real bitchin' party to celebrate. Gonna hold my breath until then too.

Hopefully, after November we can undo Obama's version of the New(raw)Deal

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What are you smoking?

ATF buds. You?

LMFAO!!

dbowker
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"Except that in this case I have yet to see a Tea Party candidate who actually brings any perspective or talent to the table.

ever heard of Marco Rubio? Rand Paul? Michele Bachmann, etc; "

Yes, those three would be on the top of my list on the wing-nut squad of unqualified radicals who not only do not represent the majority of Americans, they'd be retrograde 45 years ago, let alone today.

What you guys don't get is: it's not the deficit that's big the problem, it's our shadow finance economy that is more 25 times bigger than our real economy of goods and services, and the years of conservative deregulation that has allowed Wall Street to destroy everything our democracy ever stood for. Half or what goes on shouldn't just be regulated, it should be illegal. All that "innovation" they invented over the last 20 years has nothing but a complete economic cancer.

mark evans
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"Except that in this case I have yet to see a Tea Party candidate who actually brings any perspective or talent to the table.

ever heard of Marco Rubio? Rand Paul? Michele Bachmann, etc; "

Yes, those three would be on the top of my list on the wing-nut squad of unqualified radicals who not only do not represent the majority of Americans, they'd be retrograde 45 years ago, let alone today.

We will see in November what and who represents the majority of Americans.

So, what qualifies them to be radicals? Is it that they actually believe in the document they take an oath to? In this case, the Constitution. Unless you think the constitution is a 'retrograde' document.

If that is the case, they are in good company. You know, those 'radical' founders.

Saul Alinsky wrote "Rules for Radicals" I have not yet seen a Tea party candidate support what he wrote. But some democrats love him.

What you guys don't get is: it's not the deficit that's big the problem, it's our shadow finance economy that is more 25 times bigger than our real economy of goods and services, and the years of conservative deregulation that has allowed Wall Street to destroy everything our democracy ever stood for.

Half or what goes on shouldn't just be regulated, it should be illegal.

So, you would agree that the democrats in the subcommittes, Chris Dodd, Barney Frank, Charles Rangel, Diane Feinstein, that have benefitted from creating the legislation that governs lending institutions ONLY to subvert said legislation should be held accountable by law. If thats the case, I agree.

All that "innovation" they invented over the last 20 years has nothing but a complete economic cancer.


See the 1977 Community re-investment act created under democrat president Jimmy Carter that mandated lending institutions to give unqualified minorities loans that they could not pay back, thus the reason for the housing market meltdown.

your argument is not with corporate America, it is with the politicians that created the mess we are in.

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See the 1977 Community re-investment act created under democrat president Jimmy Carter that mandated lending institutions to give unqualified minorities loans that they could not pay back, thus the reason for the housing market meltdown.

OK! Back to teabag basics!

"Minorities," "Kenya Dude," "Muslim," "Church full of black people"...you guys can't help it, I guess.

Nice work, slipping in Carter and "minorities."

I know, next up is that powerful and evil Barney Frank who, as a minority party member of a committee overpowered an opposite party jaority committee, House, Senate, and White House, blah blah blah.

Tebagger = dedicated victim?

You will have no credibility until you get a little bipartisan.

Next, explain how Moody's was forced to overvalue these assets and all the banks and financial institutions were forced to cut them up and sell them as investment grade crap.

Seriously, you are a mess on this issue.

Next, you'll blame Reagan's divorce on Adlai Stevenson lowering the bar.

Lamont Sanford
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I'm not complaining about freedom of expression, I'm complaining we have a so-called "movement" that has it's tenants based on poor education, narrow-minded answers, and contempt for science and hard earned expertise. A group that would call Catch-22 socialist, and basically are a bunch of whiners who think they are owed something as much as any welfare sponger does.

You see, that is a problem. It is okay to believe in something or anything for that matter. If what you believe in happens to be illegal that is fine as well. It is when one acts on what they believe, be it illegal, that it becomes a problem for the government. For example, the Black Panther Party "Movement" of the 1960s. Until then it is really down to freedom of expression no matter what your opinion might be of another group. In this case you think they are bunch of dumb asses. You have a right to believe that. Freedom of expression is a two-way street. To point out by example, I believed that a majority of people fell for the cult-of-personality syndrome and elected Obama. Obama turned out to be only human with shortcomings like the rest of us. But he chose to be President. In hindsight, it only got what people wanted. "Anybody but Bush". And we are paying for that sort of stupid thinking today. So, every group is basically run by the dumb asses. It is ironic that one group doesn't see that in themselves but have no trouble seeing dumb asses are running things they oppose. What ever it is you believe in? It is run by the dumb asses.

Only a dumb ass would want to be President.

Only a dumb ass would actually go to Tea Party rally.

Only a dumb ass would get pissed off because of a Tea Party rally.

Only a dumb ass would set up their own thread in "The Open Bar" forum and posts links to himself.

And so on, and so on.

We should change the scope of this thread to what we think a dumb ass would do. No different than redneck jokes. "You might be a dumb ass if you voted for Obama," or, "you might be a dumb ass if you go to a Tea Party".

mark evans
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See the 1977 Community re-investment act created under democrat president Jimmy Carter that mandated lending institutions to give unqualified minorities loans that they could not pay back, thus the reason for the housing market meltdown.

OK! Back to teabag basics!

Which is, Freedom and Liberty

"Minorities," "Kenya Dude," "Muslim," "Church full of black people"...you guys can't help it, I guess.

Why did you interject race? Why is it that democrats are infatuated by the melanin content of a persons skin or class status?

Nice work, slipping in Carter and "minorities."

The truth is the truth. Bag all the politically correct B.S.

I know, next up is that powerful and evil Barney Frank who, as a minority party member of a committee overpowered an opposite party jaority committee, House, Senate, and White House, blah blah blah.

Ooops! you said "minority"
Again, the truth is the truth. You forgot to add Chris Dodd to the equation.

Tebagger = dedicated victim?

Teaparty member = tired of being victimized by bureaucrats, dedicated to throwing the bums out.

You will have no credibility until you get a little bipartisan.

basically, agree with all democrat proposals no matter the costs. Funny how democrats opine bipartisianship when they are OUT of power, or losing power politically.
Bi-partisianship, is that like ramming the health care bill down the thoats of Americans virtually by fiat that opposed it by 80%....so much for bi-partisianship

Next, explain how Moody's was forced to overvalue these assets and all the banks and financial institutions were forced to cut them up and sell them as investment grade crap.

Seriously, you are a mess on this issue.

Because I don't tote the left-wing ideology and democrat party line? Too funny!

Next, you'll blame Reagan's divorce on Adlai Stevenson lowering the bar.


Well now, that would be ridiculous, considering that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

p.s. Adlai Stevenson... that home-wrecker

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