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iosiP
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I recommend you send this to the IEEE

I guarantee they'll have some fun reviewing it, as you are talking about electrically charged particles (or electrons) and not about the dual nature of photons (which, BTW, can trigger a photoelectric effect by displacing a valence electron off its regular orbit).

But then, I will wait for your explanation on how electricity flows inside a conductor: I might find novel things, still unknown to the scientific community!

michael green
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photonisms

Sorry Geoff LOL. So what is a piece of copper made out of? And your saying the waves are passing through it but not really passing through it?

michael green
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IEEE
iosiP wrote:

I guarantee they'll have some fun reviewing it, as you are talking about electrically charged particles (or electrons) and not about the dual nature of photons (which, BTW, can trigger a photoelectric effect by displacing a valence electron off its regular orbit).

Oooo, the IEEE! Now, there is an irrelevant organization for high end audio if ever there was one. I've broken a lot of a laws of physics and Electronics, in fact I just broke one yesterday. You might as well turn me in to The Amazing Randi's Education Foundation. Lol

But then, I will wait for your explanation on how electricity flows inside a conductor: I might find novel things, still unknown to the scientific community!

It sounds as if you know everything the scientific community does. Ah, always good to meet someone who knows it all. Congratulations!

Geoff Kait,
Machina Dramatica

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Copper
michael green wrote:

Sorry Geoff LOL. So what is a piece of copper made out of? And your saying the waves are passing through it but not really passing through it?

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

The real question, of course, implied by your question, is can the signal, the electromagnet wave, be changed/distorted by vibration of the copper? And if it can is the distortion audible? Or is the electromagnetic wave impervious to influence by external forces?

Cheers,
Geoff Kait, Machina Dynamica

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the distortion card

Well I certainly have a lot of people to apologize to than. Let me start with Abbey Road Studios, EMI, The Hit Factory and Warner Brothers. My sincere apologies for distorting your sound. If I had only talked to Geoff first this would not have happened. Also to the 80,000 + audiophiles, boy I sure blew it guys, and here I thought your sound improved. I guess all of those systems should be thrown away now. And I should also make a call to the toy orchestra union. Hello is the TOU boss in? Yeah, hey this is michael green, yep the guy who made the big soundstages. Yeah well I want to tell you your tiny orchestras can go back to work now. Yep, we're gonna go back to squeezing all the sound inbetween the speakers again. That's right better call that dad from who shrunk the kids and get him back in here, got lots of work to do. Oh, and you folks that found all that extra music in your recordings, well I was just foolin around, that was me and my buddies dressed up as musicians.

Most of all, on behalf of the audio industry, I wish to extend my apologies to anyone who may have a system that sounds different from your fellow audiophiles. You see I was informed that all of your systems sound exactly the same, what an oversight on my part. Oh and for your absolute sound Harry, you can call Geoff and when he finally puts together a home audio system again I'm sure he'll be happy to let you listen to a distortion free stereo. I sure am sorry all of those systems you were listening to were so distorted, I'll get right on it and get this taken care of.

Oh and Geoff I ordered those audiophile uniforms, they should be ready in a week or so.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune, now seeking employment as a pro golf caddy

michael green
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got some smarts
geoffkait wrote:
iosiP wrote:

I guarantee they'll have some fun reviewing it, as you are talking about electrically charged particles (or electrons) and not about the dual nature of photons (which, BTW, can trigger a photoelectric effect by displacing a valence electron off its regular orbit).

Oooo, the IEEE! Now, there is an irrelevant organization for high end audio if ever there was one. I've broken a lot of a laws of physics and Electronics, in fact I just broke one yesterday. You might as well turn me in to The Amazing Randi's Education Foundation. Lol

But then, I will wait for your explanation on how electricity flows inside a conductor: I might find novel things, still unknown to the scientific community!

It sounds as if you know everything the scientific community does. Ah, always good to meet someone who knows it all. Congratulations!

Geoff Kait,
Machina Dramatica

Well Geoff it does kinda sound like iosiP has a couple steps on you don't you think? I mean he is able to make the connection on how energy travels. Your waves haven't even made it down a wire yet. And they don't look like they will without distorting according to you. Or maybe you can explain how these waves make their way through the audio pathway, and if they don't create vibrations why do you need to dampen them? Sounds to me like if the audio signal isn't vibrating than there is no need for all your dampening after all is there?

michael green
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Plasmatic?
geoffkait wrote:

Since the wave propagation speed in wire is less than speed of light not photons but a wave that has some similarity to photons (acting as a wave). An electromagnetic wave in a vacuum would be made of photons.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Are you referring to a plasma?

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wkhanna wrote:
wkhanna wrote:
geoffkait wrote:

Since the wave propagation speed in wire is less than speed of light not photons but a wave that has some similarity to photons (acting as a wave). An electromagnetic wave in a vacuum would be made of photons.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Are you referring to a plasma?

Not really, although the Teo liquid cables might be referred to as a plasma, well, at least a slurry. Even the Plasmatronics are not plasma.

:-)

Regards, Geoff at Machina Dramatica

iosiP
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wkhanna wrote:
wkhanna wrote:

Are you referring to a plasma?

Plasma is just ionized gas that becomes conductive. There is no way to obtain plasma in a vacuum.

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No way?

I beg to differ.
I have conducted experiments at my work using plasma deposition (transferring the material of the the anode onto a cathode substrate) in a vacuum chamber.

iosiP
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I suppose you are referring to PECVD
wkhanna wrote:

I beg to differ.
I have conducted experiments at my work using plasma deposition (transferring the material of the the anode onto a cathode substrate) in a vacuum chamber.

But the subject is different here: it's about using vacuum as a conduit for the transmission of a variable electromagnetic field (audio signal).
I do state that this is completely different than transmitting an electrical signal through plasma, and even that the energy of the audio signal itself is unable to create a plasma conduit in a gas. Therefore, the only way to do this is to use a source of high-energy in order to create plasma than modulate the flow of electrons within that plasma using the audio signal.
BTW, this is more or less what happens in a direct-heated triode, so no need to work for NASA to be familiar with the phenomenon.

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just saying....

Your statement, "There is no way to obtain plasma in a vacuum." is not correct.

michael green
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please

Will someone get to the vibrations so I can tune this stuff lol.

Sometimes when the talks get going I wonder are audiophiles listening or writing technical research papers. Do you guys (and I'm not being facetious) listen then explain what just happened or do you do it the other way around? I say this because I know a lot of engineers and intellects that have horrible sounding systems and they will say something isn't right but are completely frustrated because they can't figure it out in their heads first. They will talk for 4 days about why it can't be, but while they're having these talks I'll walk in and tune the system. I'm not kidding you, sometimes even when they are hearing it sound fantastic according to them after a tuning they will sit there in total disbelief. They'll even go to the point of completely redoing the system, screw the sound up again and call me to come put it in tune once more. You would not believe how often this happens. It's like their head is screwing with their ears, or the other way around.

I love using a certain inexpensive Cd player. It's honestly the best sounding digital front end I have ever tuned. There are guys who will listen to it and go out and buy 3 or 4 super expensive audiophile raved units and after playing them a while will call me and have me come fix their front end. I'll put back in the unit I use and they are find (loving the sound) till they start thinking about the price and how the numbers to them can't add up. A few months later I'll get a call, sound is screwed up, I'll come back, do the same thing and the cycle continues. It's like they are trained techn0-fied audiophied class rating non-listening brainiacs. It doesn't matter how good the sound is to them, if they can't get the technical or money part right in their heads they can't listen to it.

BTW I'm not poking fun, I really am interested in why all the talk and sometimes so little walk. I'm not kidding when I say I know audiophiles that hate their systems but claim them to be the best in the world. How is that possible from a mental point of view?

michael green
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geoffkait
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What can I do to tune this stuff?

Moving right along, here is the front page of Audiogon's Tweaks for sale section, the Featured items. As you can probably tell, lots of recent developments system tuning wise. See anything that catches your eye? I do.

http://app.audiogon.com/categories/accessories-tweaks

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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you should

Hi Geoff

You should get them and give a report on how they sound to you. I would recommend in doing so that you give a description of your system, how it is setup and the conditions in which you listen. Maybe pick out a piece of music and describe the stage, and then what happens after the application of the tweak. Also you might want to do this with a few other listeners at the same time and see if they are getting the same results with their own systems and methods of tweaking. They might have a system synergy that might be slightly different from yours that gives a different result.

I would keep an eye on the boundaries of the stage and the harmonics interactions to see if anything new shows up or if anything comes up missing. Many times you hear the newness and overlook something that has diappeared. I try to keep a close watchout for these things and keep systems running 24/7 so I can while doing what I do pick up on changes as they happen. A good rule of thumb is to let the soundstage grow to it's full size before completely judging the tweak or tune. You can take guesses along the way once you get use to it but if you haven't done this a lot or recently good to get those chops in order before jumping in the fire too quick. A lot, and I mean a lot of tweak products have the first impression factor and that can really get a listener in trouble down the road.

A lot of tweaks start off fairly good (meaning putting in some focus) but after settling they become de-focused, so that is something to watch out for. When you read reviews on a tweak I try to get a sense for how long the tweak has been in a reviewers system. A lot of folks don't know but in the case of Caps and some other components they may not burn in for several months. In many tests the changes are do to the freshness of the tweak and not the tweak at all, but in time this will show itself. Harmonic structures when it gets into the settling stage usually don't lie. If I hear a shift up the tweak usual goes out the door to the trash bin, but if the shift goes down I know I have harmonics to tune with. What I listen for is not so much the detail a tweak gives but it's ability to get to fullrange. most tweaks sound like they tighten things up right away, but this is usually like I said a newness affect that happens with changing something. Let things settle and then see where they are is my advice. If you do you will find yourself either selling back off the tweak or as I do finding the bin.

To me a tweak is a tweak, it is not a tune. Most tweaks are fixed settings and change with age and settling, but a tune is something that can be in more of an adjustment mode and works more with settling and structures being built. Big difference between the two. A lot of times people will call tweakers tunees but that is not necessarily the case. A tunee is someone who stuies the movement of the tweak, a tweak is more of the instant change factor.

Anything that says dampening or de-coupling are red flags for me, as I have found that these tweaks are very misleading and have instant results like I mentioned but the look term is usually something comes up missing or there is a dullness to the sound or even an upward shift that sounds like a high pitch cluster. I always tell my guys to look for fullness in a tweak, body will not fail you, but that instant tight is only a sign that the tweak or part has not relaxed yet.

hope this helps

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

iosiP
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I am an engineer, but...
michael green wrote:

Do you guys (and I'm not being facetious) listen then explain what just happened or do you do it the other way around?

...I always try to get the best sound possible from a system/room combo, and my engineering background just prevents me from trying stupid things. That being said, I always start by listening and using my (limited) knowledge to get the best sonic results, and only then I will ask myself what scientific principles got into achieving it - mind you, it may help reduce my trial'n'error work for the next system.
Setting up a system according to "rules" is a sure path to disaster (or at best to mediocrity).

As an aside, I would love if the speaker manufacturers would present detailed graphs of the lateral dispersion: unless reviewed in Stereophile, you never know a speaker behaves off-axis!

michael green
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the truth be known

The best statement in High End Audio!

"Setting up a system according to "rules" is a sure path to disaster (or at best to mediocrity)."

also

"As an aside, I would love if the speaker manufacturers would present detailed graphs of the lateral dispersion: unless reviewed in Stereophile, you never know a speaker behaves off-axis!"

The poor off-axis designing of most speakers is one of the reasons I ended up designing my own.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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