Ouch

Isn't this illegal? Fraud, or something? If not, it should be.

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Isn't this illegal? Fraud, or something? If not, it should be.

To make a Bu-ray player from scratch requires the manufacturer to pay multiple 5-figure license fees each year, which have to be amortized over the number of units sold. This makes it unfeasible for small companies to enter this market.

Oppo is doing what Pioneer used to do with DVD players, which is to offer their units as OEM kits to other manufacturers, with all license fees paid. Those other manufacturers are free to do as little or as much extra as they want.

Kal Rubinson discusses the Oppo-based Lexicon in his March issue column.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Understandable, but what Lexicon has done this time is very cynical, unless the other reports are mistaken it is the oppo product in full with no modifications or if some are done they are negligible.
This is compounded by the price of the Lexicon, even if one is to consider technical support/warranty IMO.

Now I am a supporter of many high end manufacturers, but this is going to cause a lot mud flinging to now stick to the companies who either do a lot of R&D or as you say take OEM solution or components (CD mechanisms an example or DAC chips,etc) but then actually do some notable and worthy changes.

I cannot see how Lexicon has helped the high end world with what they have done in this instance, I really feel this is going to damage the image of the high end even more.
Thats my take on it anyway.

Thanks
Orb

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To make a Bu-ray player from scratch requires the manufacturer to pay multiple 5-figure license fees each year, which have to be amortized over the number of units sold. This makes it unfeasible for small companies to enter this market.

Understandable, but what Lexicon has done this time is very cynical, unless the other reports are mistaken it is the oppo product in full with no modifications or if some are done they are negligible.
This is compounded by the price of the Lexicon, even if one is to consider technical support/warranty IMO.

If Lexicon has just done a rebadging job, I agree. (I don't want to preempt Kal's conclusions in the March issue.) For comparison, Ayre appears to use the same Oppo platform, but has replaced pretty much everything other than the data-retrieval section. (Which is what they did with the Pioneer they used for their C-X5 player - I bought a Pioneer SACD player that uses the same transport/motherboard as the C-5Xe and it measured and sounded worse than the Ayre in every way.)

What puzzles me about the Lexicon is that the parent company, Harman, could, on the face of things, afford to purchase the annual licenses to manufacture a Blu-ray player from scratch. It could also spread that cost over both the Lexicon and Mark Levinson brands.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Agreed and all good points.
I appreciate as a publication and audio journalist, it is difficult to comment on other's reports, and there is Kal's article for March.
But I think the horse will have long bolted the stables on this story by then, shame it missed Febs edition.

Cheers
Orb

No matter the legality, selling another product in a new wrapper for a greatly inflated price is simply theft.

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But I think the horse will have long bolted the stables on this story by then, shame it missed Febs edition.

You can imagine how I feel! My copy was sent in, on time, for the March edition on December 15. However, due to the difference between print and Internet latencies, this is unavoidable. Sigh.

Kal

As JA tells me- it's not about being first, it's about being best.

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I still look forward to your take on all of this. I am not sure there is any prize for being first with this kind of news. I will be greatly interested in OPPO's response to THIS business model. Is this the same as driving the get-away-car? I wasn't actually in the bank.... you know...

1) I think it would have been better if Stereophile had broken the story first... I first learned of this on the Audioreview forums... and that thread started by congratulating Audoholics and criticizing other Hi-Fi Mags/Sites for not being as thorough... Specifically naming Stereophile as an example...

2) I don't see why OPPO would need to comment... they just sell parts to Lexicon... It's up to Lexicon to tweak/change them as they see fit.... So there's no reason why OPPO should even be aware of this scam... (unless OPPO was also hired as a design consultant)

"Oppo is doing what Pioneer used to do with DVD players, which is to offer their units as OEM kits to other manufacturers, with all license fees paid. Those other manufacturers are free to do as little or as much extra as they want."

Yeah...but STILL! I mean, most educated buyers have some understanding of OEM. Hell, half the LCD monitors, microwaves and other mass market gear are all made in the same factory- that we get. But, then again they all cost roughly the same too! This is much different. Let's put it this way: what would be the effect if it turned out a $60k Lexus was actually just a $12k Toyota Corolla? Same exact car but all the fancy dashboard eye candy and the swanky body. On a scale like that every lawyer, nay, gov. prosecutor, would be beating down the door!

It's only the seemingly small scale nature, and niche market that makes this seem anything less than the pure fraudulent behavior it is. The company willfully leads the customer to believe they are getting a far better than average, boutique level product, and they aren't. But they sure pay for one! I can't see any way this could be looked at in even a neutral manner.

And John, as a respected advocate for the whole concept of integrity, measured performance, and striving to actually BE better, and not just look better, how can you say it's all just part of standard business practice? I really thought you'd have something more forceful to say about it.

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"Oppo is doing what Pioneer used to do with DVD players, which is to offer their units as OEM kits to other manufacturers, with all license fees paid. Those other manufacturers are free to do as little or as much extra as they want."

Yeah...but STILL! I mean, most educated buyers have some understanding of OEM. Hell, half the LCD monitors, microwaves and other mass market gear are all made in the same factory- that we get. But, then again they all cost roughly the same too! This is much different. Let's put it this way: what would be the effect if it turned out a $60k Lexus was actually just a $12k Toyota Corolla? Same exact car but all the fancy dashboard eye candy and the swanky body. On a scale like that every lawyer, nay, gov. prosecutor, would be beating down the door!

It's only the seemingly small scale nature, and niche market that makes this seem anything less than the pure fraudulent behavior it is. The company willfully leads the customer to believe they are getting a far better than average, boutique level product, and they aren't. But they sure pay for one! I can't see any way this could be looked at in even a neutral manner.

And John, as a respected advocate for the whole concept of integrity, measured performance, and striving to actually BE better, and not just look better, how can you say it's all just part of standard business practice? I really thought you'd have something more forceful to say about it.

Not to preempt John's response... but I got the impression from his earlier posts that he was just waiting on Kal's review to be published before making any statements (condemnatory or otherwise) on the matter...

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But I think the horse will have long bolted the stables on this story by then, shame it missed Febs edition.

You can imagine how I feel! My copy was sent in, on time, for the March edition on December 15. However, due to the difference between print and Internet latencies, this is unavoidable. Sigh.

Kal

To cheer you up, we are all waiting with anticipation though for your article, and worth the wait just like a Guinness err I mean a quality wine

Cheers
Orb

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To cheer you up, we are all waiting with anticipation though for your article, and worth the wait just like a Guinness err I mean a quality wine

Cheers
Orb

Thanks and I hope you understand that "my take" was written in early December. This is not an apology but it was not written in the same context as this current feeding frenzy.

Kal

OK- we got it. Just have to wait for meal to be served.

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Thanks and I hope you understand that "my take" was written in early December. This is not an apology but it was not written in the same context as this current feeding frenzy.

Kal

Which will make your findings even more interesting. We get to see your take as it existed independently at the time.

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Oppo is doing what Pioneer used to do with DVD players, which is to offer their units as OEM kits to other manufacturers, with all license fees paid. Those other manufacturers are free to do as little or as much extra as they want.

<snip>

John, as a respected advocate for the whole concept of integrity, measured performance, and striving to actually BE better, and not just look better, how can you say it's all just part of standard business practice?

I wasn't condoning what Lexicon appears to have done. I was explaining that for small companies, basing their product on an OEM platform is not uncommon. However, the assumption is that they will add something other than a fancy and expensive faceplate and THX certification!

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I really thought you'd have something more forceful to say about it.

I really don't want to preempt what Kal has to say about the Lexicon in our March issue.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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1) I think it would have been better if Stereophile had broken the story first...

I don't disagree. But our first priority is the print magazine, which inevitably lags Web-based publishing.

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I first learned of this on the Audioreview forums... and that thread started by congratulating Audoholics and criticizing other Hi-Fi Mags/Sites for not being as thorough... Specifically naming Stereophile as an example...

I didn't see that thread. Can you give a link, please. And Stereophile not being thorough? What would have given someone _that_ impression? We do try to list the provenance of products we review. See, for example, our review of the McIntosh MS750 media server - http://www.stereophile.com/mediaservers/108mac/ - where we said at the beginning of the review that the MS750 was an Escient under the skin, and made it clear in the review that McIntosh didn't do enough to the Escient platform.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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1) I think it would have been better if Stereophile had broken the story first...

I don't disagree. But our first priority is the print magazine, which inevitably lags Web-based publishing.

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I first learned of this on the Audioreview forums... and that thread started by congratulating Audoholics and criticizing other Hi-Fi Mags/Sites for not being as thorough... Specifically naming Stereophile as an example...

I didn't see that thread. Can you give a link, please. And Stereophile not being thorough? What would have given someone _that_ impression? We do try to list the provenance of products we review. See, for example, our review of the McIntosh MS750 media server - http://www.stereophile.com/mediaservers/108mac/ - where we said at the beginning of the review that the MS750 was an Escient under the skin, and made it clear in the review that McIntosh didn't do enough to the Escient platform.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Here's the thread from Audioreview:

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=32866

Which opens with this post:

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Good work from Audioholics via The Consumerist:

http://consumerist.com/2010/01/compa...ts-caught.html

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/t...icon-outside-1

Great gotcha journalism from Audioholics. Maybe it will open the door to more thorough investigation from other audio reviewers. And not necessarily the blatant rip-offs. I'm also referring the the insanely subjective reviews found in magazines such as Stereophile.

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Here's the thread from Audioreview:

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?t=32866

Which opens with this post:

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Good work from Audioholics via The Consumerist:

http://consumerist.com/2010/01/compa...ts-caught.html

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/t...icon-outside-1

Great gotcha journalism from Audioholics. Maybe it will open the door to more thorough investigation from other audio reviewers. And not necessarily the blatant rip-offs. I'm also referring the the insanely subjective reviews found in magazines such as Stereophile.

Thanks Ajani, and thanks for posting the details of my Bel Canto USB Link review to that thread. It looks as if this poster is merely parroting the usual anti-audiophile party line and ascribing the sins of some to Stereophile.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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What puzzles me about the Lexicon is that the parent company, Harman, could, on the face of things, afford to purchase the annual licenses to manufacture a Blu-ray player from scratch. It could also spread that cost over both the Lexicon and Mark Levinson brands.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Not to mention Harmon Kardon. Of all high end companies it would seem like it would be easiest for Lexicon to do it right what with all of the resources of the Harmon corporation behind it. This doesn't show that high end manufacturers are greedy as much as it shows that large corporations are lazy and thinks that the buying public is stupid. If a small company like Charlie Hansen's Ayre can do it right why can't Lexicon? This is really disgusting.

I'd be careful about using such a broad brush.

For example, the purchase of lexicon may have contractually involved a hands off situation to be extant with regards to Harman sticking their nose into Lexicon's doings, to some degree.

There are many things we don't know about this situation. 99% of them we don't know, in fact.

If what you are saying is true, and we adopt such thinking...then every person on death row who's ever been executed..as a 'situation'... would demand that their parents and immediate family be executed simultaneously, beside them.

I'm not sure that's the correct way to think or exist. How about you?

Amir nicely picked up that Todd Packer (Technical Product and Project Manager, Harman High Performance A/V) posted last year on the product before all hell let loose, dated Posted: 19 Sep 2009.
Interesting or informative wording.
http://www.smr-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=323&PN=1
Quoting post:

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The official Lexicon BD30 post:

Short Answer...Built in America...THX certified...Lexicon Quality and Support...Best Video...Fastest transport...Joe Kane likes it...first shipment expected in late October or early November.
What we bring to the table:

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I get the feeling reading it that possibly the management did not expect from what they planned such a hostile response at release.

Cheers
Orb

I am 100% certain that management did not expect this response... Or else they'd have never released the product...

playing devils' advocate here, what if the Lexicon actually sounds better? Is it worth the extra $ even though you can't see any difference?

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playing devils' advocate here, what if the Lexicon actually sounds better? Is it worth the extra $ even though you can't see any difference?

A good question... let's assume that there are some hidden changes that make it sound better (or maybe the more expensive outer shell somehow does that)... then whether it's worth the extra money is up the individual consumer (just like all upgrades in Hi-Fi)...

As a theoritical question it is a good question for debate, but sadly it seems the reality is limited to such changes as possibly firmware if reading the link/quote I provided.

The complacency of the management involved (hence why the quote to me is interesting and informative in how it is delicately phrased) to me is rather shocking, and I feel there should be more questions about what were the management thinking and why, especially when they were so laid back about it even last year (that quote-link goes back to 19 Sep 2009).

Cheers
Orb

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playing devils' advocate here, what if the Lexicon actually sounds better? Is it worth the extra $ even though you can't see any difference?

A good question... let's assume that there are some hidden changes that make it sound better (or maybe the more expensive outer shell somehow does that)... then whether it's worth the extra money is up the individual consumer (just like all upgrades in Hi-Fi)...

The perfect Hi Fi apology.

The other thread about this mentions the 3,000 dollar face plate - and there are those who will leap to validate its effectiveness.

If things run true to Hi Fi course, Lexicon will now be encouraged to market 3,000 dollar aftermarket faceplate upgrades for regular 500 dollar Oppo players.

It will form a perfect circle.

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playing devils' advocate here, what if the Lexicon actually sounds better? Is it worth the extra $ even though you can't see any difference?

A good question... let's assume that there are some hidden changes that make it sound better (or maybe the more expensive outer shell somehow does that)... then whether it's worth the extra money is up the individual consumer (just like all upgrades in Hi-Fi)...

The perfect Hi Fi apology.

The other thread about this mentions the 3,000 dollar face plate - and there are those who will leap to validate its effectiveness.

If things run true to Hi Fi course, Lexicon will now be encouraged to market 3,000 dollar aftermarket faceplate upgrades for regular 500 dollar Oppo players.

It will form a perfect circle.

My point about the faceplate was sarcasm... it's a theoretical question....

$100 for a better outer casing might be worth it to some people, but $3K is clearly a joke...

Sorry, I was being sarcasm, too.

No ill intent was meant.

Sounds like a "case" of egg on the face otherwise known as caught red-handed. I'm sure there are more to this story from both angles - I do know that CNC/ caseework is alot more expensive than what you would think. I wonder how sales of the product will be affected by this review.