caustic386
caustic386's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 5 months ago
Joined: Sep 30 2015 - 6:03pm
Want McIntosh, can't afford it - what do?
bierfeldt
bierfeldt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 3 weeks ago
Joined: Oct 26 2007 - 2:30pm

You can absolutely buy a pre amp and power amp for $3K or less but I am not optimistic it will deliver the quality that you would want.

The McIntosh equipment is great but is very expensive IMO based on the quality of what you get. That C50 preamp is great, but at $6500, there are other units I would pick first.

At $3K, you want to get an integrated amp. I have not heard it personally, but have heard good things about the Parasound Halo Integrated and it has an awesome internal DAC at $2500. The Musical Fidelity M6si should be a great unit and a wonderful value at $2999. Again, I personally haven't heard it.

IMO those are your best options. There are a few other units that are modestly more expensive or similarly priced but they do not have internal DACs. Specifically the Roksan Caspian M2 at $3K though it is only 85w or the Rogue Audio Pharaoh at $3500. The Roksan is the segment award winner at WhatHifi. I own the Rogue Hydra power amp which is similar to the amplification in the Pharaoh and it is amazing.

Either of those paired with something like a Musical Fidelity MX DAC for $799 would be a pretty outstanding setup but obviously will be well above $3K. Having not heard the Parasound or the Musical Fidelity, it will be tough for me to say they would outperform. I know you will get elite performance from the Rogue and the Roksan.

Parasound and Rogue have a pretty good dealer network and you might be able to hear them in person. All 4 are available from Needledcoctor, Music Direct or Audio Advisor which will allow you to return the unit if you don't like it within 30-60 days depending on the retailer.

rrstesiak
rrstesiak's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 8 months ago
Joined: Mar 22 2015 - 5:38am

The Cary SLP98 is worth a look. There is one on Audiogon or eBay (used) for $1200. These can be had for those prices used if you look hard and have patience. Using tubes, it is the first preamp that comes to my mind as having a vintage sound which you may find at least to be on the same planet as McIntosh. Cary is also a top-notch company. Sold for $3100 new.

Check it out -

Ron

caustic386
caustic386's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 5 months ago
Joined: Sep 30 2015 - 6:03pm

Thank you both for the input! I'd not seen those sites before, nor had I heard of Cary. People keep recommending Musical Fidelity products, especially the M6PRX, but I can't find anywhere to audition it. I'll give the Rogue amps a shot and see what I can do about finding a Cary amp.

rrstesiak
rrstesiak's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 8 months ago
Joined: Mar 22 2015 - 5:38am

The Cary is no slouch..it received excellent reviews right here in Stereophile:

"While I've heard only a small portion of all the perfectionist audio preamps in the world, I can confidently say that the Cary SLP-98P is a distinct, and distinctly musical, choice. Far from being another me-too preamp in any way, the Cary rewards the tube-friendly listener with a view on the music that I consider not only to my taste, but truthful. That the Cary is priced fairly for what's gone into it—and a lot lower than most of its worthiest competitors—is no small blessing in itself.

A sweet little preamp? Without question."

--Art Dudley, Stereophile

link to the review:

http://www.stereophile.com/tubepreamps/204cary/

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 10 months ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm

Hold on there folks, is the question about a certain sound or faceplates?

Before you guys send someone else on the never ending revolving door of plug & play lifetime guessing, shouldn't you be asking about the OP's prefered sound cues and listening conditions?

You know this last month I've had 4 very POed Phile members say "what's up with these guys". Do you not realize that when you start someone on the same chase you guys are on, your pretty much sending them to audio purgatory with little chance of parole?

Maybe sometimes some of you guys aren't thinking about what you are doing to your fellow listeners. Shouldn't you be promoting a method of listening first before sending folks on these never ending equipment headspins? It's partly my job to pickup these hobbyist after they have spent time & money in the audio game of no return when all they really wanted was great sound to begin with, but you guys should be helping to make life easier not harder. And you can't do this without getting there yourselves. If you haven't heard a component, why would you recommend it? And, why would you recommend it without stating the conditions in which you listened to it in?

All I'm saying is when I read your posts it's clear your barely getting started, or not complete in your own journeys, maybe you should not be so emphatic in your statements, and instead limit yourselves to your own personal experiences, from your own unique points of view.

Sorry if this sounds like I'm coming down on you, but you need to know that some of these folks are not so pleased after getting misguided on this forum, especially when they are just beginning in the hobby. Us old-timers understand the excitement, but we can also tell when someone has arrived or still on the search by the way you talk about your sound. If I were coming here for advice, I would want to talk to someone who is fairly well versed in the 3 parts of the trilogy "acoustical mechanical electrical" so the advice could be well rounded and based on sound itself. Not everyone is a component collector, and would say most just want to get to audio heaven without the pain of death. Some might want to jump through the hobby in plug & play mode, but I have seen many more as of late wanting to get to the music without having to go through all the incomplete learning curves of others as their reference.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

rrstesiak
rrstesiak's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 8 months ago
Joined: Mar 22 2015 - 5:38am

Michael/All:

The gentleman clearly states he desires the McIntosh "house sound" aka a "faceplate". He has already stated that is the sound he has heard and his ears prefer.

It is common knowledge in audiophile circles that McIntosh mostly voices their components to a tubed sound; even with their solid state choices. I carefully researched scores of preamps and ended up with the Cary unit...a design that after reading the review sounds like it may be at least close to the McIntosh sound but less costly; as again per his request. Further, the Cary utilizes the concept of a separate external power supply..which coincides with my very detailed experience and research as being a superior approach to an integrated power supply. I think you would agree with this philosophy as well. However, I in fact have not listened to it and certainly wouldn't dare guide someone to spend their hard earned money blindly. It is these times when I defer to an entire staff of experienced professionals right here on Stereophile, in this particular case, Art Dudley. To that end, I included a quote and a direct link to the professional review. Therefore, my recommendation carries with it the staff at Stereophile.

Certainly my recommendation is just that: a recommendation. Regrettably, the Cary does not include a DAC as the McIntosh preamp does, but one could be added. Bierfeldt's recommendation I believe includes a DAC, and he is another very talented and intelligent listener here on these forums. Saying that, I also agree with his recommendation.

Further, just because I am a relative newcomer to this hobby, I bring what I believe to be a valuable approach by leveraging my scientific background in Electrical Engineering and physics and although I may not be as experienced, I can leverage my knowledge and apply it to this hobby and have written a few detailed articles detailing my application of the scientific method and technical measurements of equipment. I believe Michael is also familiar with my research and has even discussed it with me at length on many occasions. In short, my lack of experience is balanced with my advanced education in fields I can directly apply to high end audio. It is my very background and personal lab measurements that have lead me to the conclusion that separating the power supply from the main chassis is of measurable benefit. To that end, many other audio designers also agree and incorporate separate power supplies in their designs. To be honest, I'm a little disappointed in his reply denouncing the approaches given here and not even offering a solution. While Michael brings up a very good point that sometimes people get inaccurate or not well thought out replies in these forums, in this case that is simply not true.

Michael, if you find any fault with my recommendation and can recommend to the gentleman a solution that carries with it a similar house sound to Mcintosh, but at a significantly reduced cost, including any room treatments into that cost, by all means enlighten us.

To the OP, while I seem to be arguing with Michael, I am only doing so in reponse to what he wrote above and explaining my reasoning, background and how I arrived at my careful recommendations. Michael is an audio professional and in my opinion brings a very talented and fresh viewpoint into the world of audio. I hope he can bring his unique viewpoint and recommend a specific approach that is also less costly than Mcintosh but carries a similar sonic signature; as per your original request. My only complaint is his initial approach here and the way he tried to invalidate both mine and bierfeldt's suggestions. However, I respect Michael and as previously mentioned have enjoyed lengthy and productive previous discussions with him.

Respectfully,

Ronald R. Stesiak, PhD
National Science Foundation

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 10 months ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm

Hi Ron

No problem.

I was a Mac and Cary dealer for many years as well as owning many of their products in many different conditions and configurations, and during company sonic signature changes. I'm not sure I need to enlighten anyone. I'm not here to jest. Someone either knows what Mac and Cary are or they don't. As well you either know tubes or you don't.

My statement to you is, people are complaining about advice given here loosly, without having the experience to make many of these judgements.

Ron you said

"As Mcintosh utilizes mostly a tube approach, I carefully researched scores of preamps and ended up with the Cary unit...another tube design but less costly; as again per his request. However, I in fact have not listened to it"

mg

What do you call research my friend? I understand you don't mean to give un-founded advice, but this is indeed what you are doing if you personally have not put the listening hours in.

some simple questions

Do you hear the same as Art D or our friend asking for advice? Truth is there could easily be 20-30 companies out there (today-with maybe 100 more from the past) at all $$$ ranges to choose from.

Do you have Art's room? Giving big buck advice without even knowing the listening circumstances is not professional or even educated.

Do you even know what the Mac sound is, past reading about it? Bottles have a huge variety of sounds and are extremely source, speaker, cable and room sensitive. Does Art say the Mac sounds like the Cary? In what context?

I don't find fault in reviewing, what I find fault in are people not understanding the difference between reviewing and setting up a personal audio system.

Also Ron, this is no attack on you, no need to pull out the PhD with me. I'm simply trying to suggest a little more care when making statements without you actually being a doer on the topic. Same as I do when others do it.

I know you want Stereophile to be more involving, well as I said in another thread there are reasons people don't jump in. One of those reasons is a lack of knowledgeable peers.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

rrstesiak
rrstesiak's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 8 months ago
Joined: Mar 22 2015 - 5:38am

Michael:

You state there was no attack on my suggestion, but your reply supports my observation:

Michael Green wrote:

You know this last month I've had 4 very POed Phile members say "what's up with these guys". Do you not realize that when you start someone on the same chase you guys are on, your pretty much sending them to audio purgatory with little chance of parole? Maybe sometimes some of you guys aren't thinking about what you are doing to your fellow listeners. Shouldn't you be promoting a method of listening first before sending folks on these never ending equipment headspins?

That's a pretty strong statement. But I've learned to grow a thick skin on these forums and am not upset.. Just a little disappointed.

Back to the recommendations...
You again are not offering a solution. I'm sorry you seem to be in pure defense or offense mode without offering a recommendation of your own. Your responses are out of character and maybe you are frustrated with replies you have received from frustrated listeners, but I fear in this case bierfeldt and I (I hope to include myself), tend to give well thought out advice and perhaps these frustrated listeners are referring to other advice that was hastily provided.

As far as my recommendation goes, I have already listed my experience supports the separate use of power supply as a good design choice, and I deferred to Stereophile professional critics for the detailed positive review of the Cary unit; where they echo that it has a "sweet" sound and other sonic references to tube voicing. It is my intention for caustic386 to carefully read the professional review and decide for himself if what Art describes matches a sound he is after. This leaves me entirely out of that piece of the equation and places the OP (caustic386) directly with the professional source (Art Dudley, Stereophile).

This approach is done in scientific research all the time. To explain, no scientist can ever know every possible contribution to each paper they write, so they liberally quote other scientists who have successfully done that piece of the work. In this case, Art has successfully listened to the Cary, so I quoted him, and I add my own direct experience with supporting the use of a separate power supply to perhaps explain many of the positive sonic traits of the Cary with what I have directly experienced with separating the power supply from the chassis with my specific equipment.

You mention your direct experience with McIntosh, Cary and other high end equipment.. I am genuine when I say your feedback would be greatly valued here; giving the OP another valuable angle of insight to his challenge.

Best Regards,

Ron

Ps. I mentioned my scientific background for benefit of the OP to explain my credibility and background, as you yourself include your company in your signature to also garner well deserved respect and to establish your own credibility.

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 10 months ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm

Hi Caustic386

I'm going to give you my take based on what I read you asking. I'm sure both Ron and Bierfeldt have answered with the best of intent and with good info, so I'm going to take a little different food for thought approach.

One excellent point is what bierfeldt said, and I believe Ron has taken advantage of this as well. If you have the oportunity to get products on a trial basis, this is one of the most useful tools out there. 948's are in the middle of the road as far as amp/room/speakers interactions go. On one setup they will sound like heaven and the next can be fatiguing. Did you say you heard your speakers, CDP and Mac all in your listening room? If so we have a good starting point. If not we should maybe back up to what you do have and the sound that is at your place now, then move forward.

Sounds to me like you have two parts to your equation, correct me if I'm wrong. The 103 and the Focals.

For your new friends here you might want to give the rest of your system including your listening space so they/we can get a picture of what you are hearing now and where you wish to go. Honestly at this point the world is yours for the making. The more you share the more thought others can put into giving their thoughts in return.

Both The Needle Doctor and Music Direct are dealers of ours and you can't go wrong between them and AA to get started. When you do talk to them be sure to give them your system info as well.

To add to this, if you wish for me to take a look at your acoustics simply click on the link below.

have fun

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

bierfeldt
bierfeldt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 3 weeks ago
Joined: Oct 26 2007 - 2:30pm

Thanks for sharing that people are unappreciative/angry with the effort that we put forth regarding this. I spend a great deal of time putting to together thoughtful reccos based on my experiences in this hobby over the past20 year.

Although I haven't heard those direct models, I have heard similar items in both Parasound and Musical Fidelity's line thus the recco. I picked them based on my perception of McIntosh's solid state sound. And as I am typing, I might look at Rotel as well.

That being said, if people are unhappy with my efforts then I can save the time and simply not bother with this forum anymore. I am certain my wife with will be pleased. Cheers

rrstesiak
rrstesiak's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 8 months ago
Joined: Mar 22 2015 - 5:38am

Bierfeldt:

I too was shocked to hear people aren't apparently satisfied with recommendations here on Stereophile and concur that if anyone can point out repeated poor advice I have given, I too have no issues walking away and focusing on my research and just participating as a spectator in this sport.

To your credit, I can personally tell you that your past recommendations have been of great benefit to me in many decisions and this is certainly the right time to thank you bierfeldt!

As just one example of many, off the top of my head, I can point to your recommendation of the Vincent PHO-8 phono stage. A stage utilizing a separate power supply at a recently reduced cost from $400 to $300 I was totally unaware of. In fact I ended up purchasing it and was very pleased.

Here's a picture of it in my setup I had:

Image hosted by servimg.com

Kind Regards,

Ron

Ps. My apologies for veering off topic, but I couldn't let this go without formally validating and thanking bierfeldt and showing to others his advice in fact is very good and well Intended. As I certainly share that goal when providing my own advice.

bierfeldt
bierfeldt's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 3 weeks ago
Joined: Oct 26 2007 - 2:30pm

Thanks for the kind words and I know that my efforts are not completely wasted but this forum has changed.

A few years ago there were so many active users that this couldn't be an issue because you would get many diverging opinions. It just isn't the same. How frequently in the most recent six months have you and I been the only people responding?

Really knowledgeable folks like jackfish & wkhanna are gone and even commsysman is around way less frequently. It isn't the same. Michael is right in that these forums work best when lots of people are commenting and when one person makes an error or is unintentionally ignorant, others offset this. With so few people being active these days, this forum is being heavily colored by a few peoples personal preferences.

It may be better to offer no opinion as this may push people out of this forum to places where there are more active users.

rrstesiak
rrstesiak's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 8 months ago
Joined: Mar 22 2015 - 5:38am

Bierfeldt:

What you wrote is sad to me but I agree. It seems like there are few active people here at this point... And as far as opinions and recommendations, I've always thought the more the merrier!

You bring up the good point that if there are only a handful of opinions, then the advice will inevitably be biased towards the few people offering their credible input, resulting in a distorted view for the person seeking advice.

However, I hope you and I can hang around and see if things pick up again.

As for Michael, I have always valued his input as well, but even he seems to be withdrawing.

I guess time will tell. In addition to these forums, I myself truly value the "Recommnded Components" sections and the professional reviewers' work here, and again hope things pick up rather than have people pulled away.

Regards,

Ron

rrstesiak
rrstesiak's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 8 months ago
Joined: Mar 22 2015 - 5:38am

Michael:

What gives with your noticeable change on these forums? I have to say your input is missed...Allow me to quote a reply of yours on my digital thread:

Michael Green wrote:

Hi Ron

There are reasons why more don't join in.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net

I just want to go back to the days where we kindly shared differing viewpoints.
As for my latest digital craze, for lack of a better wording, it is merely my opinion, worded thanks to Freedom Of Speech.
Anyone and everyone is invited to critique it or post their own beliefs as always!

Referring back to my digital posts, I was thinking of stopping them here and starting them up on another forum called Computer Audiophile. I think there is a more specialized, computer-centric and larger audience there.

I miss the intellectual debates we had and am again just disappointed in the walls you are building.

Respectfully,

Ron

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 10 months ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm

I can talk about what I am told the problem might be, but I think the bottom line is what you guys are saying. There at one time was good and fair cross-referencing between members. This was of course sometime before I was here and am going off of what others have expressed to me.

From the info I have been given a couple of things happened. One, the old school moved on as a matter of age and not much to do with the hobby itself. Two, audio advice became audio personality flaming with no buffer and mostly from those who weren't here to share in the hobby at all, but more left overs from the flame sites. Third, and I have gotten this report ever since people saw me coming here. Within the first week I started posting I must have had 20 or so people tell me this forum was a waste of time. The word was "no real listeners here anymore". I saw this as a chance to pump the place up a little, but with almost no response on the forum itself, but I did get behind the scenes input.

What was so weird to me was, over 80 people from here have joined TuneLand. I get 15 emails or so from the members here a week. However these folks will read but want nothing to do with the community here. I'm not pulling your leggs when I say most who are on lookers now don't feel there are enough qualified listeners here to give advice. I've noticed this in the hobby in general though. A lot more people in the 90's were "all in" listeners. Their systems were divided in thirds Acoustical/Mechanical/Electrical. If you look at the pics from back then the systems looked a lot different as far as how they were setup. Most serious guys had RPG, Tubetrap or RoomTune. Next you had the audio furniture guys (myself included again) along with all the feet and specialty products like cable. Finally you had the speakers, sources and amps. But here's the thing. back then if you didn't have all 3, and all 3 noticeable, you weren't considered serious. Go back and look at the pictures. The industry went from systems flat against the wall in living rooms, to pulled out, treated and on display in more of a listening setting. I don't know about the other guys but we had thousands of clients doing the system thing. My friend Robert Stein was doing huge business with cable exchanging and people were talking about the tools of making sound and not just equipment and speakers. There was a balance and a maturity to the advice that was given, a method and the wisdom to go with it. Listeners were talking about centerstage pressure zones and all kinds off stage shaping devices as a must.

By the time I got back around to the mainsteam in this part of the biz, systems were back against the wall, no soundstage treatments, furniture was just that, furniture. The hobby was back to source/speaker/electronics again. It was like the hobby de-educated itself and went back to component picking instead of system setups. It's all right there in the pages and pics for everyone to see. Our hobby became un-involved after being extremely involved and this is why high end audio is a ghost town.

There is only so much excitement you can drum up with Speakers, Amplifiers and Sources. When this hobby went back to that from being one of methods and systems, it went into decline (fast). This hobby has one hope and one hope only and that is switching the focus back to listening. Other audiophile clubs are busting at the seams because their involved in the doing of a hobby. Cassettes are coming back, R2R and CD's are not nearly as gone as people are saying. If this part of the hobby doesn't embrace the rest of the hobby with the same vigor as pushing components, it's over. It's over because collecting equipment is not the same as high end audio listening. This part of the hobby has taking a step backward.

look at it this way

How many guys from the 80's and 90's are still around, and how many are system guys vs component and speaker guys? Further more if I'm a system guy Acoustical/Mechanical/Electrical why do I want to take advice from a component only guy, or consider his advice to be up to speed? A component guy has 1/3 of the answer at best. We were there and somehow went back to start. Heck on this forum the most vocal member is a guy who has not had a stereo in his room for over 8 years. Does anyone else find this extremely odd? If I see the people giving me advice are only looking at components without the other 2/3, and I'm building or have a high end system that is a whole system, and the advice I'm sifting through is coming from someone who only has a portable cassette player, why would I want to stay?

This may come across brutal to some, but think about it. Why would these guys want to go backward, and why aren't we telling the new guys the whole story so they have something more than source/amp/speaker?

there's a reason people are not joining in

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 10 months ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm

Hi Ron

a couple of things

Mostly we have been very busy with clients. Not only directly but taking on more stores and distributors.

you said

"I miss the intellectual debates we had and am again just disappointed in the walls you are building."

mg

Not walls, just getting down to business with people tuning. My job here is not to debate with anyone, but to promote the whole picture of audio system building. TuneLand as you can see is growing and that visable growth represents maybe a 20th of our biz, probably less actually. As I said in the past "I won't be trolled" and when the fall orders started to roll in and listeners started tuning in their systems it was time to be where I am the most helpful to those looking to go further than the norm. If members here wanted to be tuned, I would be here more but spending my time in forum games was never my goal. I was a victim of being sucked into a badland with some who had bad vibes. Something I knew I would break from, just needed to find the way out and still stand tall. I saw that with my leaving so did a lot of posting and views. Maybe this forum should think of ways to encourage those in the audio business instead of making it next to impossible to engage in fair exchanges with fellow listeners.

The listeners haven't gone anywhere thank God. They are still in their rooms making music and choosing to share that music with like minded people, without being internet trolled. Listeners can certainly join us anytime http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ as we consider ourselves as an extention of the good listening here.

The Stereophile forum is what you make it, and it's fruits (both good and bad) are reflected in the vibe and views. I look forward to sharing some seasons here, but have decided to be more productive with my time and come here when there is something to say beyond the weeding through those weird vibes that so many have pointed to. Let's be honest and frank, this forum has lost a lot of it's steam and placing throw rugs over the cause doesn't fix anything.

On the other hand playing music is what it is all about, and I have a need to spend my time where the music is playing.

have a great weekend

Oh BTW forgot to mention. It's in the forum rules to sign each thread with your company identity if in the audio business. When I first started posting I was asked to participate in this rule. Credibility is not something one can sign into existence. It's not something that one wears or hangs on a wall. Credibility is something born deep inside of us that is shown and shared when we are at our very best.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

caustic386
caustic386's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 5 months ago
Joined: Sep 30 2015 - 6:03pm

Thank you all for jumping in on this! Very interesting reading to a new guy... Per your request, here's a few things that I think may be useful:

-Listening space is 3300 cubic feet, hardwood floors, lots of doors and windows. My layout is unfortunately rather static due to the entry/exitways and furniture. Here's some images (the overhead view shows speakers and listening position):

http://imgur.com/ZU43Kxz
http://imgur.com/ZhuKd5r
http://imgur.com/EY3ZTj4
http://imgur.com/wWOuezm

As you may have guessed, there's quite a bit of echo to the right of the listening position, so I ordered some 4" 2x4' panels from John Hunter Acoustics. 2 for behind the speakers, 1 for the wall next to the exterior door, and the last one either in the corner or directly behind the listening position (whichever I like more).

I heard the C50/MC452/948 combo in a store, here's a terrible picture of the setup (note the panels in the back, it was a pretty good room):

http://imgur.com/CnKhNw5

As for what I've tried thus far, Emotiva XPA-1L monoblocks, PeachTree 220SE and Simaudio 340i w/ DAC. The 340i was best for sure, but the bass of it didn't appeal to me. I really didn't like the Emotivas, but their $500 DAC is great - I sold my Asus Muses One after hearing it. I didn't buy the Emotiva DAC, but after hearing what was out there for only $500 I realized I wanted to keep my options open.

As for what I listen to, it's been described by most audio salesmen as "bright" - my favorite bands of the last few years are Run the Jewels and Death Grips. Generally speaking I like music by skinny guys wearing all black, but a lot of other things as well (especially rap as of late). However, since I brought home the Focals I've been listening to a LOT of Scriabin - I had no idea how great classical music could sound if you have decent gear!

I did recently hear a Parasound/Magico pairing and wasn't too enthusiastic about it. Definitely great, just didn't jump out at me personally. Likewise, during the search I've also sampled Primare i32, NAD M22, lots of Rotel (I really don't like this brand so far) and your tyipcal Magnolia fare - Arcam, etc. The C50/MC452 combo still wins by a long shot.

I recently dug up a McIntosh MA6900 that's very close to my budget and I'm almost ready to pull the trigger, although I'd really like to hear the Musical Fidelity line for comparison. Everything I've read and everyone I've talked to seems to think that's good fit - unfortunately there's no dealers within 3 hours drive and the M6PRX is discontinued so I can't find it via web order.

Initially I had really hoped to upgrade to the Oppo 105 and plug that straight into an amp, however I brought one home and the PeachTree 220's DAC sounds better to me by a small margin. In fact, I almost thought I was imagining it until my wife commented her preference without being prompted. Additionally, it's been explained to me that sonic signatures are generally introduced in the preamp stage moreso than the amp. Not sure how accurate that is? I'd imagine it depends on both units - a tube preamp probably has moer influence than a class D amp, for example.

Finally, I'm 99% certain I'll be adding a sub in the future - probably a SVS SB13 centered between the front speakers. I really think it's important to feel bass - simply hearing it without feeling it feels like someone's lying to me, if that makes any sense.

I hope that wasn't overkill - input is welcome!

rrstesiak
rrstesiak's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 8 months ago
Joined: Mar 22 2015 - 5:38am

Michael:

Thank you for taking the time and elaborating what is going on in your Neck of the woods. From what it sounds like, you are doing well and quite frankly I am relieved as well as happy for you.

I will continue to say though I do miss our exchanges of ideas and hope you come back when And if things pick back up again over here.

I myself am most likely going to shift over to Computer Audiophile for awhile. I guess we are all sort of going different ways. But I will continue to keep a pulse on things over here as I mentioned there is a lot of good material in the professional review sections, as well as hopefully help out other listeners once in awhile if I can.

I wish you continued success and hope things turn around here soon.

Stay in touch -

Ron

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 10 months ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm

Hi caustic386

Excellent job with your posting! This gives others a chance to sink their teeth into now.

Sorry for the side-track. Sometimes these audio forums can get singularity syndrome. It's fun to focus on electronics but the fact is we're not hearing the equipment and speakers. What we "are" hearing is pressure, and by you taking the next step in your description a whole new picture has been painted about your "system".

here's something more to think about

You've mentioned a few products now and I want to tell you that all of them sound remarkably different from each other, and (maybe most important) they all will interact in ways that have strengths and weaknesses depending on your own personal set of conditions. The best systems I have heard and worked on in my life time are the ones that take a holistic approach and not the ones that get stuck on signatures. I say this because all recordings as well have their own signatures and if a system is too stuck in one sound some music will sound great, some not so great, and some you'll be looking for the nearest window to throw out.

So my approach isn't nearly as much about the golden calf of the month, but more about what I need to have sound wise and understanding my recordings themselves. If you take the time to look at TuneLand you will see that we are the most extreme in our listening perhaps over anyone other camp in the hobby. I personally have a system in every room in my house, excluding my bathrooms. If I take any system in the world and put it into each of my rooms that system will sound different. That's a fact, and something we do. How different is what is amazing. Next, if I hook up that same system to different circuit panels the same will happen, the sound will change dramatically. Here's the facts. No matter what I tell you or what story line you get from anyone else, you are creating something that noone else has, and you are the master of your own sound. Come good, come bad your learning curve is unique to you and the more you can learn and explore before pulling those triggers only to re-pull them a few months or year down the road depends on your objective.

Your going to go one of two ways in this hobby as we all do. Your either going to build your system as a method to play recordings or you are going to enter the revolving door of high end audio. One is based on treating all things audio as equals and the other is a never ending swamping out of components, speakers and all the other pieces. Both can be fun but they are quite different in the end results.

The reason I lean toward the method type of system is because I'm one of those listeners who puts the music above the hobby of componentry. But I'm also this way because I went down the other road so deeply that I ended up owning 5 high end audio stores just to supply my revolving door needs. So I know both of these sides extremely well, perhaps more than anyone else I've ever seen post here.

let me give an example

I believe you mentioned that you only want a one input setup (I only listen to one source per system myself). You said this but take a look at something. Turn any of your McIntosh around, what do you see? Tons of connections! In my way of thinking why do I want all those extra noise makers if I'm only using one input? I look at what my wants are and then do some audio math, understanding that anything extra is a potential source of blockage that I have to either live with or deal with down the road.

Now I could give you my list of components like anyone else here, but your pictures speak loudly to me and suggest that to me at least, if I were you I would start by building the parts of the audio trilogy in balance before going all in on component window shopping.

either or any way you go it's the best hobby on the planet :)

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 10 months ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm

Hi caustic386

One more thing if I may. If you want to experience something interesting, join TuneLand start a thread in home audio systems and have me do a mock up of your system for free. Might be interesting for you to see and hear what I might do with your system if it were mine, just for the sake of seeing your system potential through other ears.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

caustic386
caustic386's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 5 months ago
Joined: Sep 30 2015 - 6:03pm

I've registered on your forum; input from others is still welcome!

commsysman
commsysman's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 3 months ago
Joined: Apr 4 2006 - 11:33am
caustic386 wrote:

Greetings,

Currently I own a pair of Focal Aria 948s. Combined with a McIntosh C50 and MC452, it's the most satisfying sound I've heard in a home environment. Unfortunately, there's no way I can afford those 2 units in the next 25 years or so. Can anyone recommend something comparable? I know McIntosh makes the MC152, but I'm new to this so I have no idea how much the C50 colors the sound (I heard that combo 5 states away, and no one in my area has that gear on hand).

There's the MA5200 and MA6600, which are in my price range on the secondhand market, but reviews on both seem mixed.

Bottom line: is there another brand and/or model that comes close to the C50/MC452 combo for $3k or under? My source is an Oppo BDP-103, which has a somewhat weak DAC IMO (Peachtree Novas blow it away, for example). I really only need 1 digital input and about 100 quality watts, hopefully that helps my situation?

You can buy the Musical Fidelty M6si integrated amplifier for $3000.

IMO it will sound far better than any McIntosh products that you can buy for a comparable price. It is excellent!

caustic386
caustic386's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 5 months ago
Joined: Sep 30 2015 - 6:03pm

Thanks - I'm having that debate with myself right now, actually. I'm probably going to order one on a trial and see how it goes. It's always somewhat problematic when you can't A/B items directly, and of course if I get an MA6900 (for example) I'd be stuck with it even if the M6si outperforms.

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 years 10 months ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm

Because of the lack of stores in the US many companies do offer private auditions. They may not be pushy about the offer but if there is good qualifying, you can usually work with the manufacture or distributor. For example we do this with Audolici. We think it's wise for someone spending that kind of money to have the opportunity to let the product settle into the systems synergy. We even sometimes send a Tuning Platform along with our amps.

Anytime you are investing a certain amount and up, you should have the service match the level of performance and price-tag.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

caustic386
caustic386's picture
Offline
Last seen: 8 years 5 months ago
Joined: Sep 30 2015 - 6:03pm

Does anyone happen to know the approximate components of the M6Si? I'm guessing the power is based on M6PRX, the pre by the M6PRE, and the DAC is presumably the M6DAC? So strange they went with USB only, though...

rrstesiak
rrstesiak's picture
Offline
Last seen: 4 years 8 months ago
Joined: Mar 22 2015 - 5:38am

The M6si is actually the exact integrated I would buy if my budget allowed.

Having said that, I have long since studied up on it and found its only shortcoming to be the DAC. Not only is it only USB, it won't decode any songs above 24/96.

However, with the pre- and amplifier sections being world class, it is still one of the greatest bargains going for the level of sound you get. The solution is then very straight forward: if, after listening to the DAC it does not suit you, simply purchase an external DAC, knowing your integrated has both balanced (XLR) and unbalanced (RCA) inputs.

If your digital collection is mostly CD quality (16/44.1), and located on a PC or music server with USB output, you may find the existing DAC totally enjoyable. Only your ears will know.

Best of Luck,

Ron

Ps. If budget permits, moving up to a separate pre-amp and amplifier will mostly likely yield even further benefits over the M6 integrated. At that level; however, the differences become more and more subtle, and you need to be sure your listening room is setup properly and that you have decent cabling.

Log in or register to post comments
-->
  • X