>>> "I've been silently following this thread since its inception. I have watched it slowly (quickly?) deteriorate into mudslinging and name-calling. At this point I just have to ask: "Is it really this difficult for people to believe that magnetically charged impurities in a pigment could possibly have an effect on a highly sensitive coil of wire hovering just above?" <<<

Referring to the reply I have just done to Ethan, people may have difficulties in believing that applying a demagnetiser to LPs could influence the 'sound' from them - maybe even more so, they may have difficulties in believing that applying a demagnetiser to CDs could influence the 'sound' from them but just HOW MANY people and for HOW LONG are some of them going to disbelieve or dismiss other people's valid experiences ? To change your question around slightly.
"Is it really this difficult for people to believe other people's experiences of HEARING improvements in the sound when they have done something which is regarded as 'unusual' ?
Surely, when the experiences described are from people who have been involved professionally in the audio industry for quite a number of years, there should be a degree of serious notice taken of those experiences ?"

THAT, in my opinion, is where the investigation should start !! And, far more notice taken of people's long term experiences -
as described by Clifton :-

>>> "Still, I must say it. Nobody mentioned anything about living with this thing in his or her system. There are a lot of arguments about double-blind befores and afters, and there is a lot of stylistic grand-standing, but nobody says anything about actually living with this thing in a system for a few months.

The only reason I give so much credence to Stereophile reviewers is that they actually live with this shit in their systems. They turn it on when they are hung over or on the rag, as well as when they are bright and chirpy. They live with the gear and evaluate it from that living perspective.

I have a CD de-magnetizer. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I like it in my system. When it works, it enhances my enjoyment of my music" <<<

Michael Fremer used the demagnetiser in 2006 and wrote about it's effects then. Presumably he has been using it since that time and in 2009 Stephen and John Atkinson heard it's effect at Michael's house. Which, in my books, comes firmly under the category of 'living with this thing' !!

Regards,
May Belt.

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Posting on the SP forum is a little like being the "guest of honor" at a lynching

No shit Arny. I actually like this forum for the divergent views, but the unreasonableness of some regulars tends to take away the fun. Not that it isn't fun poking at Frog and his other anonymous industry insider-buddy KBK, because those guys are easy targets and everyone can see their bias. But life is too short to waste on MWA types (morons with attitude) who will never learn even when you hand it to them on a platter.

Science? We don't need no stinkin' science!

This reminds me of a comment I heard on Dr. Dean Edell's radio show last week. He said that anyone who is opposed to vaccinations should not be allowed access to swine flu vaccine either. Or other medicines, or a hospital for that matter. Sort of like the annual Darwin Awards.

In this case, the anti-science faction should be forced to listen to old 78s, and only on a hand-cranked wind-up record player. That'll learn 'em! Don't believe in the scientific method? Great. The next time you get sick all you can have is a good old-fashioned blood letting. Hey, I really like that idea!

--Ethan

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One person's after another's, after another's ACTUAL experiences with the device - all dismissed so casually !!

LOL. Okay May, I guess we should also believe everyone who says they were abducted by UFOs and probed anally, eh? Hey, they experienced it so it must be true!

--Ethan

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>>> "Michael Fremer claims that placing a demagnetizer under an LP record changes its sound, and apparently some people believe him. You don't really need to know more than that." <<<

***********

This is very disingenious of you Ethan.

What's wrong with cutting to the chase?

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You know perfectly well that there is far more going on than you have portrayed in that simple sentence - and FAR MORE people involved than the one person's claim you quote !!!!!!!!!!

I don't know what is served by bringing in a cast of thousands of blatherings by people who either have no clue about how to do a fair test, or are afraid of what would happen were they to actually do a fair test.

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May Belt.

*The* May Belt as in the PWB web site?

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I don't know what is served by bringing in a cast of thousands of blatherings by people who either have no clue about how to do a fair test, or are afraid of what would happen were they to actually do a fair test.

Oh, that's easy. The more people they can bring on-board to insult you and me and JJ and Axon etc, the stronger they believe their point was made. You know, might makes right and all that. How does that quote go? "If 50 million people say a foolish thing, it's still a foolish thing."

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*The* May Belt as in the PWB web site?

The one and only, tin foil and all. You're surprised to see May here and in this thread?

--Ethan

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Tell me, do you think the WTC was brought down by thermite, that there is an alien body in Area 51, and that the international Illumanati control the world, too?

Let's just say that all three presidents of the USA who tried to create a currency that was issued and controlled by the US government offices instead of elite bankers---were assassinated.

Then it gets strange from there out.

it's an ugly mess my friend - and it appears that your head is squarely up your ass. Education as a shield of ignorance does no-one any good. It is sadly common in the scientific circles. I should be fair though, and say that smart people don't engage in continual arguments, whereas the foolish will persist.

Open eyes and all that stuff.

Here's a nice dramatic firefighter pose, taken within the first 3-4 days. Very nice.

Whoops! There is a stunningly classic demolition type 60 degree thermite cut in the main beam behind him. Only a thermite cut could have done that. There is no way any cutting device of any kind, used to remove wreckage -would do so..and no fool would cut at over 60 degrees and at least double his cut time and fill his cut with slag..or risk his ass with such a foolish cut. There is only ONE explanation.

You'd of thunk that George Junior's brother Niel Bush -who owned the security company for the WTC center -would have done some investigating (you know, constant vigilance and all that stuff) when he had the entire security system shut down every night for over a month and his company worked very hard in those buildings ..all night...for that month - just before the buildings went down.

But I guess not too many Americans know that.

HHmmmm.

You guys worry if records sound different if they are demagged or not.

I really can't be bothered, I know they do. MC cartridges work on VERY small signals and it takes basically nothing to alter the considerations and conditions they are used with and under in a way that is noticeable to the ear. Repeatable even.

As you might guess, there are more important things to be dealing with.

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Here's a nice dramatic firefighter pose, taken within the first 3-4 days. Very nice.

Whoops! There is a stunningly classic demolition type 60 degree thermite cut in the main beam behind him. Only a thermite cut could have done that. There is no way any cutting device of any kind, used to remove wreckage -would do so..and no fool would cut at over 60 degrees and at least double his cut time and fill his cut with slag..or risk his ass with such a foolish cut. There is only ONE explanation.

You'd of thunk that George Junior's brother Niel Bush -who owned the security company for the WTC center -would have done some investigating (you know, constant vigilance and all that stuff) when he had the entire security system shut down every night for over a month and his company worked very hard in those buildings ..all night...for that month - just before the buildings went down.

But I guess not too many Americans know that.

HHmmmm.

You guys worry if records sound different if they are demagged or not.

I really can't be bothered, I know they do. MC cartridges work on VERY small signals and it takes basically nothing to alter the considerations and conditions they are used with and under in a way that is noticeable to the ear. Repeatable even.

As you might guess, there are more important things to be dealing with.

Whatever this dumbass thinks about the tests I will take the opposite opinion and be correct.

I ripped a stunningly classic demolition type 600 degree thermite cut after a long night of Mexican food and Dos Equis beer. Sent a few dozen diners to the emergency room. But not a lot of Americans know that. I'm still persona non grata at El Cholo.

Blazing Saddles!

As expected, you can not prove any collusion (since none existed), and seek falsely to potray interest in one's own scientific discipline as "collusion".

You really do throw the word "science" around a lot, for someone who shows contempt for science. Along with scientific discipline, scientific method, proof and evidence, and so related. But then, you always have. Every time someone challenges you on anything you say, and they've proven you wrong, instead of responding intelligently, let alone honestly, you just blow a jet of hot air out of your waffle hole. In doing so, you abandon any notion of "scientific discipline" and any credibility you hope to have around here gets flushed down the toidy. I'm happy to exemplify, because until you answer these issues, say bye-bye- to your credibility, "jj".

1) Long before SAS did, I exposed the inherent fraudulance of propagandists like you and Sean Olive, who manipulate science in an effort to mislead the public. Who lead people to believe that you are participating here as any other member, and have no agenda to push. (Just like your friend Ethan is not here to push his room traps). You claim you are simply here to offer "neutral facts" about audio to readers, with no conflict of interest. Yet you do not fully disclose yourself at the bottom of your posts, or mention in your sig that you are an AES fellow, and that this organization is backed by commercial audio manufacturers. You want "proof of collusion" jj? THERE is your "proof of collusion".

2) You claim to be a professional, and you whine loudly, angrily and incessantly, about members who post under pseudonyms. Yet you yourself post anonymously under various pseudonyms!! ("jj", "Woodinville", etc.) and you refuse to sign your real name in full, and state professional position and affiliation in your messages! Not only does this lie about how you don't use pseudonyms reveal you for the hypocrite you are, but not signing your messages with your professional affiliation makes everything you say, suspect. You blast others for not taking responsibility for their words, but you show yourself to be an unprincipled scoundrel, who refuses to take responsibility for his own words!

3) You harp on about how audiophiles should not listen like normal human beings, because they will suffer "expectation biases". Yet you have never mentioned expectation bias for DBT's, and how it corrupts the input data when figuring the confidence level of dbt tests. When challenged on this, you attacked the character of the OP. I'm sure you will do the same with me.

That only proves that you are what you accuse others of being: "an enemy of truth, science, and progress".

4) One minute you claim LP deformation all-persuasive, the next minute you claim you're not sure if it has any real influence. Whenever anyone tries to pin you down on that, it's like nailing jello to the wall. This way, you can conveniently avoid appearing to be wrong, when your opinions are challenged. I can't tell however if you learned this from Arny or Ethan, because both of your friends have always done the same thing.

You have clearly shown yourself to be an enemy of truth, science, and progress, and on that note, you've moved yourself into my list of "crackpot stalkers".

Right. This again. This is what, the twelfth member you've now accused of "stalking" you? So basically, everyone who disagrees with you at any time, is a "crackpot stalker" according to you. I would suggest that you refrain from making utterly false, conspiracy-theory statements like that. It only shows the depth of your prejudice and hostility. On second thought, don't. It only gives reasonable readers a reason to see what a crackpot you are.

Apparently, This stalker thinks that speaking up when one's experience and expertise is appropriate is somehow "untrustworthy".

Tell me, do you think the WTC was brought down by thermite, that there is an alien body in Area 51, and that the international Illumanati control the world, too?

Ad hominem attacks. SO IRONIC that you loudly and constantly whine about it when this logical fallacy is made against you.

I think this post has pretty much exposed your game, "jj". You won't be able to hide in the dark shadows so much, any longer. Sorry in advance, if that upsets you.

No shit Arny. I actually like this forum for the divergent views, but the unreasonableness of some regulars tends to take away the fun.

You like this forum for the "divergent views"? Is that why you insult, namecall and otherwise attack anyone with divergent views? Good one, Ethan!

Not that it isn't fun poking at Frog and his other anonymous industry insider-buddy KBK, because those guys are easy targets and everyone can see their bias.

Well thanks for making it clear that you launch character attacks against me because you find it "fun". At least you're getting something out of it. Speaking of easy targets, I love it when you get into these paranoid conspiracy theories of yours, that you pull out of your rear. No doubt anyone here who's an audiophile ("audiophile", what the hell are THEY doing here?!) is an "anonymous industry insider" -- with a buddy. Hey, just like you and jj, fancy that! And we all share this awful, transparent "bias" for high quality sound. Something you and your anti-audiophile propagandists know nothing about and clearly loathe. KBK has done far more to advance the science of sound than you and your little high school garage project room traps ever could. I am honored to be targeted alongside him as two of your greatest enemies, in yet another feeble-minded (not to mention totally unprovoked) character attack of yours.

But life is too short to waste on MWA types (morons with attitude) who will never learn even when you hand it to them on a platter.

Well using yourself as an example, you certainly proved that in this thread, Ethan.

Science? We don't need no stinkin' science!

Thanks for making that clear, Ethan. And of course why would you, when you boneheads all have your pseudoscience to keep you from learning anything real?

In this case, the anti-science faction should be forced to listen to old 78s, and only on a hand-cranked wind-up record player. That'll learn 'em!

Note well: that person you called an "anti-science guy", John Atkinson, noted during the debate I attended that old 78's sound pretty damn good, next to some of today's pop recordings, due to their lack of compression. But then you wouldn't know about that, because you can't play 78's, don't have 78's to play, don't have the listening skills to hear a difference between 78's and CD's even if you did, and you don't know anything about modern recording methods. And so you think you're making a "scientific" point here, but by your enormous lack of knowledge of audio, it appears the point has thrown itself back in your face. You do that a lot, you know.

LOL. Okay May, I guess we should also believe everyone who says they were abducted by UFOs and probed anally, eh? Hey, they experienced it so it must be true!

If someone told me you were abducted by aliens and probed anally, I'd believe it. Actually, it makes a lot of sense, considering the illogic, irrationality and senseless of much of what you "blather".

Don't believe in the scientific method? Great. The next time you get sick all you can have is a good old-fashioned blood letting. Hey, I really like that idea!

Great! Stay where you are. I'll go grab the pitchforks.

Secondly, your information only counts posts. Apparently lurking here and not finding anything worth responding to is a foreign concept to you.

So you've been "lurking" here for 4 years, and you want us to believe that all of a sudden, as soon as I started exposing Sean Olive for the fraud that he is, your motley crue of DBT dregs shows up, and since then, everything is "worth responding to"? Do tell, what changed in 4 years exactly? LOL!

In fact Axon signed up on 09/02/05, about the same time as the rest of us except JJ.

What is it that caused people to inflate very limited evidence into positive proof of wrongdoing and an immediate threat?

Paran... parano... paranoa! :-(

"Paranoa"? What's that? You invented a new disease now? Or is that the little name you give to your DBT trolling and cross-forum bashing? Not only did you and your anti-audiophile trolling buddies from Hydrogen/AVS come here specifically to dispense your pseudoscientific DBT dogma, with a stated agenda to attack high end audiophiles, but SAS is wrong about only one thing: there were more than 4 of you. I already posted the evidence in this thread:

"JJ & other DBTers from HydrogenAudio found cross-forum bashing Stereophile forum. "

http://forum.stereophile.com/forum/printthread.php?Board=rants&main=66819&type=post

Posting on the SP forum is a little like being the "guest of honor" at a lynching, or perhaps more reflective of he sophistication and table manners of most of the party - a cannibal dnner.

So if that's what it's like for you, why are you here then?

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I don't know what is served by bringing in a cast of thousands of blatherings by people who either have no clue about how to do a fair test, or are afraid of what would happen were they to actually do a fair test.

Oh, that's easy. The more people they can bring on-board to insult you and me and JJ and Axon etc, the stronger they believe their point was made. You know, might makes right and all that. How does that quote go? "If 50 million people say a foolish thing, it's still a foolish thing."

Yes, I've been educated by my recent tarry on the SP forum. I now realize that in addition to "proof by assertion" there is "proof by insult". If the forum regulars are representative of SP's readership, then they really believe that the world is not controlled by physical laws, but by the person who writes the smoothest prose and can spew out the snappiest insults.

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*The* May Belt as in the PWB web site?

The one and only, tin foil and all. You're surprised to see May here and in this thread?

It will be interesting to see if she has the guts to return, after she scopes out the situation.

If she becomes a regular here, then were're not in Kansas any more! ;-)

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So if that's what it's like for you, why are you here then?

Well, JJ was commenting over on HA about Jan's melt-down, and I wondered if I could one-up JJ and get Jan to *really* melt down. It only took me 3 days.

I came I saw, and I conqueored. ;-)

I'm always in it for the learning experience. My most recent one is realizing that there are people so intellectually shallow as to believe in "Proof by Insult". As I mentioned to Ethan, I'm always into it for the new learning experience! ;-)

The question I'm currently trying to answer is whether or not there is any intelligent life here aside from the forum moderator and outsiders such as JJ, Ethan and I.

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The question I'm currently trying to answer is whether or not there is any intelligent life here aside from the forum moderator and outsiders such as JJ, Ethan and I.

Outsiders? Ethan? Pete? Repete? Hardly. If this post is your letter of resignation than I will accept it on behalf of the insiders.

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Referring to the reply I have just done to Ethan, people may have difficulties in believing that applying a demagnetiser to LPs could influence the 'sound' from them - maybe even more so, they may have difficulties in believing that applying a demagnetiser to CDs could influence the 'sound' from them but just HOW MANY people and for HOW LONG are some of them going to disbelieve or dismiss other people's valid experiences ? To change your question around slightly.
"Is it really this difficult for people to believe other people's experiences of HEARING improvements in the sound when they have done something which is regarded as 'unusual' ?
Surely, when the experiences described are from people who have been involved professionally in the audio industry for quite a number of years, there should be a degree of serious notice taken of those experiences ?"

That was my point a score of pages ago or more...I am completely willing to dismiss any magnetic effect but will not dismiss the numerous folk who claim a sound difference. I just figure they are hearing something caused by something other than the manufacturer claims but that is real none the less....

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I now realize that in addition to "proof by assertion" there is "proof by insult". If the forum regulars are representative of SP's readership, then they really believe that the world is not controlled by physical laws, but by the person who writes the smoothest prose and can spew out the snappiest insults.

Good point, arnie, one should not insult others, it just weakens your own statements.

But ... wait .. what's that I see on the horizon? Why it's arnie and his insult machine coming over the rise with dust flying. I knew it was too good to last.

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It will be interesting to see if she has the guts to return, after she scopes out the situation.

If she becomes a regular here, then were're not in Kansas any more!

Dang! You done it to me again! Here I sit waiting for you to rely on your vast knowledge of science and speak some "science", you know like order a plate of ABX in scientistese or something cool like that. Well, you never really said you were good at this science stuff, did you? So what do you do instead, arnie?

You insult a lady.

Seems you don't practice what you preach or pay attention to what you even say yourself. So why should we? Actually, why should we pay attention to anything any of the "science" evanagelists preach here? None of you have anything to add to this thread other than more insults that are just like the old insults you've already posted a hundred times in a few short weeks or in some cases many long years.

You want us to believe you are one thing when you are just not that at all. You're just another troll who won't leave well enough alone. Not one of you have proven anything "scientific" and you can't even agree on what you should be trying to prove. Someone says "deformation" and you all jump on that like a bunch of starlings fighting over a dead Junebug. Someone else says "bit is bits" and you flap your way over to that like ducks in a wading pool for a go at bit-fools.

But I guess this is what passes for proof in your world of DBT's and ABX's - being the one who can spew out the nastiest, most insane insults with the most regularity and then running to another forum to report it. But you aren't cross-forum bashing, eh?

And who would be your target now? A woman no less. Or is it not at a woman but her husband and what they stand for? Are you that jealous of someone who isn't here to convert anyone? While you dump insult after insult on anyone who disagrees with you it must very difficult for even scum like you and your friends to see someone going about their business without insulting anyone. Particularly someone who has created something while you've spent your life tearing things down. And I've read your story, arnie, you and a few others here are all the same. You've all spent your life trolling forums with the same lies and insults and attacks over and over. You repeat it and repeat it thinking, "Just one more convert, just one!" I've seen what you specifically are willing to do, arnie, at least as far as the name changes and the fake id's have allowed me to follow. You're a very slippery guy for someone who wants to call everyone else a fake and a charlatan. Slippery isn't really the word to use though, more like "slimey".

Slimey and proud of it - what a guy.

It just must be very difficult for the audio-my-way-evangelists who rely only on insults to be able to converse at all to see someone be successful without resorting to insults or attacks, it must go against everything you stand for - attacks uber alles.

What a glorious day this must be if you think now you get to shit on JA and May Belt. You must have creamed your adult diapers.

I bet you ran right over to another troll-filled forum to tell them about your good luck. I bet that's were you are right now, yukking it up with a few fellow trolls. That's what trolls do, right?

What they've managed to build must be tough for all you trolls to take when you've built your life on lies, insults, deceit and intimidation by constantly battering people with your "anti-science" schpiel and after all that - after all these years of trolling the forums - you've all only managed to become known as the internet's trolls among trolls on forums filled with trolls and getting "attaboys" from other trolls while May goes about her business without insulting anyone.

How many converts have you actually managed, guys? How many young, impressionable minds have you influenced with your agenda? I'd be interested in knowing how many you've managed while JA and May have gone about their business without any insults. Now there's something worth measuring though I know you nitwits couldn't agree on the numbers if they were right in front of you. That's the only thing you guys have proved on this forum, that you can't agree on anything until your leader tells you what it is you must believe and say. You are the sort who keep talk radio on the air.

That has to be tough even for out of touch with reality goofballs like you to swallow, I know it's been hard for several members here to accept that May does her business in a professional manner without insults and without attacks. She won't even respond in kind when they pile on the insults, and they've piled on a lot of insults. It's all they have against her, her plan works because people listen for themself and don't need to be led around by the nose by a bunch of sick old men sitting at a keyboard in their pajamas just out searching for one more convert - just one more unlucky convert - and all they can do is attack her personally because of what she stands for, what she represents to them. She represents everything you guys are not.

So why doesn't she attack and insult back? Well, I can't speak for May but I'd say she doesn't have to, she's got something that works and has built it from scratch. She is succesful at what she does. What have you guys got?

Attacks are the heart of the "scientist's" game plan from what I've seen. Nothing scientific needs to be shown only all things need to be claimed as "anti-science" to chip away at what might actually be true. You've spent your life trying to drag just one more convert down your sinkhole, to make them think something might be untrue if it has been claimed possible by any of the "anti-science believers". You've played the martyrs and you've played the kings all in the same breath - what's left other than to repeat and repeat and repeat the same old tired BS. You've spent your life attacking anyone not willing to bow down to your insults. Make the audiophools jump through another hoop and then insult them for doing it and then go report it on another forum.

You must be very proud of what you do.

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Well, JJ was commenting over on HA about Jan's melt-down, and I wondered if I could one-up JJ and get Jan to *really* melt down. It only took me 3 days.

I came I saw, and I conqueored. ;-)

Right, arnie, you didn't come here to discuss, exchange ideas and allow freedom of thought. None of you trolls are here for that. Why build up when it's so much easier to tear something down. Particularly something someone else has built up.

You came to "conqueor". "Conqueor"? OK, I suppose in your fervor to spit out an insult you haven't figured out proof reading a simple sentence.

We'll go with "conquer" and leave it at that unless you want to claim that it is too "anti-science" for you.

"Conquer".

Sounds rather Nazi-esque to me.

But who am I? I'm just someone who can post what you only see as a "meltdown". And then you run and report in on another forum. And you put another notch on your keyboard, eh?

Oh, arnie, you are such a fool - such a ridiculous old fool.

Go change your pajamas, arnie, you stink.

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Right. This again. This is what, the twelfth member you've now accused of "stalking" you? So basically, everyone who disagrees with you at any time, is a "crackpot stalker" according to you.

What is amazing is this is the first string, and only the last few pages, that I have ever replied to J_J, and suddenly I am a stalker?? Maybe I missed a reply somewhere?

Didn't you mention arny calling a person a peadefile (yes he misspelled it) in a post?

This ought to give members of Hydrogen and AVS confidence.

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Didn't you mention arny calling a person a peadefile (yes he misspelled it) in a post?

This ought to give members of Hydrogen and AVS confidence.

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Right. This again. This is what, the twelfth member you've now accused of "stalking" you? So basically, everyone who disagrees with you at any time, is a "crackpot stalker" according to you.

What is amazing is this is the first string, and only the last few pages, that I have ever replied to J_J, and suddenly I am a stalker??

It's what you write, not how often.

In short, you lie about my positions, attack positions I do not hold, propose completely crazy accusations (about who I am, etc, that you posted "scientific" issues when they were in fact ridiculous, conflated attempts to put a false opinion at my feet, and there was no science involved, only rabid foaming at the mouth from your side), and so on.

I think this all comes about because you actually believe that you know what I REALLY thing, and you're simply incapable of reading what I ACTUALLY SAY.

As regards the LP "test", what part of "this is a very hard test to even establish baselines for" is in any fashion unclear?

This doesn't support anyone's test, for starters, and it certainly doesn't support any sighted testing at all.

>>> "Okay May, I guess we should also believe everyone who says they were abducted by UFOs and probed anally, eh? Hey, they experienced it so it must be true!" <<<

Let us stay on the subject of hearing, can we ? Thousands and thousands of people, over the centuries, have described hearing noises and 'ringing' in their ears - even though they were in a silent environment. One by one by one they may, at the time, have had their experiences disbelieved and dismissed but thankfully, over time, they have been BELIEVED !!! Even though others could not hear what they could hear and even though what they could hear could not be measured !!!

Regards,
May Belt.

>>> "It will be interesting to see if she has the guts to return, after she scopes out the situation." <<<

"Guts" does not come into it !!! But "Maturity" does !!!

My good "Maturity" is my guide as to when and how I respond !!!

Regards,
May Belt.

>>> "That was my point a score of pages ago or more...I am completely willing to dismiss any magnetic effect but will not dismiss the numerous folk who claim a sound difference. I just figure they are hearing something caused by something other than the manufacturer claims but that is real none the less...." <<<

And THAT is the place any investigation should start !! By recognising that 'relevant' people are describing 'something' happening with the sound which cannot be explained from within conventional electronic and acoustic theories !! Which is exactly how Peter and I started along the particular path we have been along these past 30 years. From ourselves confirming what others had been describing (Jean Hiraga, editor of the French Hi Fi Magazine Revue du Son in the late 1970s - that different wires and cables sounded different), through Ivor Teifenbrum describing that the presence of passive speakers in a room had an adverse effect on the sound from the speakers actually being played, through Julian Vereker and Bob Stuart describing some cables being directional i.e sounding better when connected one way and sounding worse when connected the opposite way, through Martin Colloms describing how passive components can affect the sound. Through us finding other things affecting the 'sound' and trying to fit one (conventional) explanation after another in an attempt to explain what we were hearing !! I always describe this as 'going through a conventional check list'. Is the explanation to do with capacitance, is it to do with resistance, is it inductance, is it microphony, is it static, is it vibrations, is it anything to do with dielectrics, is it RF interference - and so on ??

That is the path which all technicians and engineers will take - at first - and if any of those explanations seem to fit, and satisfy them, then that is where they stay and that will be the explanation they will continue to use and (usually) don't look any further for any other explanation once they have one which satisfies them. Until that is, something happens which shows that the explanation being used no longer holds water. Then, one is left with the observation without an explanation !!! BUT, the whole crucial thing is that the OBSERVATION is still there !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It STILL happened !!!! You can't get away from the fact that it happened, even though you no longer have a suitable explanation

Regards,
May Belt.

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Let us stay on the subject of hearing, can we ?

Ok, that's my business, so let's.

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Thousands and thousands of people, over the centuries, have described hearing noises and 'ringing' in their ears - even though they were in a silent environment. One by one by one they may, at the time, have had their experiences disbelieved and dismissed but thankfully, over time, they have been BELIEVED !!!

Actually, tinnitus has been described for centuries, and there is, in the literature, very little support for the idea that people didn't believe it. The interesting thing is that the origins of otoacoustic emission and tinnitus are still very much under examination for the "how" and "why".

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Even though others could not hear what they could hear and even though what they could hear could not be measured !!!

Sorry, but they have been measured, and were heard (by anothers' ear in fact) long, long ago.

You are attempting to argue that because we do not know everything (and can never do so) we, in fact, know nothing. This is, in fact, false, it is quite possible to disprove a particular hypothesis without knowing the nature of life, the universe, and everything.

When we couple that with the ability of the human mind to integrate information at a very basic level, without any concious attempt, or in fact counter to concious attempts to do otherwise, the way that auditory (and other, of course) memory works, in a fashion that is both lossy and refocusable, understanding what is actually audible as a result of the sound in the air vs. what is the result of a purely perceptual process not involving the actual sound, is very, very difficult, and requires enormous care when doing so.

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Right. This again. This is what, the twelfth member you've now accused of "stalking" you? So basically, everyone who disagrees with you at any time, is a "crackpot stalker" according to you.

What is amazing is this is the first string, and only the last few pages, that I have ever replied to J_J, and suddenly I am a stalker??

It's what you write, not how often.

Thanks for clearing that up. So for the record you admit I was not following you around.

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In short, you lie about my positions, attack positions I do not hold,

Please mention one and explain in detail.

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propose completely crazy accusations (about who I am, etc,

Then why don't you post your real name and take responsibility for your posts instead of stalling over and over? Any responsible scientist happily claims responsibility by signing their name to what they write if free of guilt; that is if they are not afraid of ethical and legal issues.

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that you posted "scientific" issues when they were in fact ridiculous,

Again I see no refute with evidence. Just general PR comments from you to limit damage. If you can't refute, then all your work is compromised.

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conflated attempts to put a false opinion at my feet, and there was no science involved, only rabid foaming at the mouth from your side), and so on.

Again a general PR reply in an attempt to limit damage to your credibility.

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I think this all comes about because you actually believe that you know what I REALLY thing, and you're simply incapable of reading what I ACTUALLY SAY.

Nonsense. Simply continuing your PR campaign.

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As regards the LP "test", what part of "this is a very hard test to even establish baselines for" is in any fashion unclear?

Never said it was easy. In fact I claimed the test was worthless at bottom of page 64. Later, on page 67, I commented on the recording end. See below for more information. Page 65 is J_Js re-entry and the beginning point of our exchanges.

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This doesn't support anyone's test, for starters, and it certainly doesn't support any sighted testing at all.

Quite true, it does not. I never said it did nor even commented on sighted testing, but stated that the test is not scientific and there is no need to push the test like ethan was attempting to do on page 64. So ......

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You are attempting to argue that because we do not know everything (and can never do so) we, in fact, know nothing.

Actually, I think that's what you guys are arguing. If we (those of us who listen and observe rather than measure and conclude) don't immediately have a "scientific" measurement, then we can't know what we have just experienced. If we say we experienced it but don't always have a measurement or a rationale that suits your confined little world, then we are "anti-science".

And in your opinion that's all the needs to be known - what we already know and nothing more. The "I know it all and what I don't know and I can't measure I can't hear" approach to audio science.

And that's why your version of "science" has nothing to do with a science that examines and searches for solutions no matter what is already known. That's why May has been successful and why you guys sit at your keyboards in your pajamas and adult diapers infesting forum after forum after forum.

You must be proud.

"You are attempting to argue that because we do not know everything (and can never do so) we, in fact, know nothing."

- "Actually, I think that's what you guys are arguing."

That's so true! Science this, science that. Not to mention the UFOs and anal probing. Shucks, Randi hisself couldn't do better. Taking a page right outta Zen and the Art of Debunkery as per usual.

Getting back to the subject at hand, given that at least half the people here could not hear the difference between the files that MF posted, it is fair to say that the difference that Furutech makes (if any) is not "substantial and obvious" nor can "everyone hear it" as MF suggested.

We can go back and forth for weeks (as we have) trying to argue the validity of the tests, insult each other, and call our respective mothers names. The fact is that Furutech treatment is controversial and does not lend itself to superlatives and proclamations showered upon this product by MF.

Take from this experience whatever you wish and let's close this thread.

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>>> "Okay May, I guess we should also believe everyone who says they were abducted by UFOs and probed anally, eh? Hey, they experienced it so it must be true!" <<<

Let us stay on the subject of hearing, can we ? Thousands and thousands of people, over the centuries, have described hearing noises and 'ringing' in their ears - even though they were in a silent environment. One by one by one they may, at the time, have had their experiences disbelieved and dismissed but thankfully, over time, they have been BELIEVED !!! Even though others could not hear what they could hear and even though what they could hear could not be measured !!!
May Belt.

So you are unaware of the ways that titinus is measured, I take it, May?

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What is amazing is this is the first string, and only the last few pages, that I have ever replied to J_J, and suddenly I am a stalker?? Maybe I missed a reply somewhere?

No, you didn't. I know jj very well. He calls everyone a "stalker". And he also "demands" an "abject grovelling apology" for any perceived slight, real or (usually) imagined - as he demanded from you, me and others here in the very short time he's been around. I don't know why he thinks this tactic does something, because it just causes people to laugh at him even harder. He attacks the character of everyone he thinks is using a pseudonym (whether they are or not), which is a downright silly argument in itself, made even sillier and less credible, by the FACT that uses plenty of pseudonyms himself, and --never-- actually posts under his real name!!

Every single discussion group he comes trolling on to, he demands to be treated like royalty, and have his personal opinions considered more important than others, pretending that he is speaking for "science" when this quackery has never even been validated. He constantly hypes himself as a "professional", making embarassing "appeals to authority" (a logical fallacy), to try to convince people to give more weight to his pseudoscientific blather. And always demands people "take responsibility for their words" by posting their real names in their messages. Hell, he even demanded Stereophile change the rules of its forum to accomodate his fetish about pseudonyms, within 2 weeks of being here (which would be odd if he was ever taken seriously, because this troll wouldn't be allowed to post himself, if he couldn't use a pseudonym!). Yet as you saw, he is afraid to identify himself by disclosing his professional affiliation in his own posts, talk about "taking responsibility for his own words", "jj" doesn't even believe enough in his own blather to sign his own posts with his own real name! In fact, he was too afraid to even respond to me (or you) on this issue when I asked him to.

Like his battle-buddy Krueger, "jj" aka "Woodinville"'s agenda has always been to bash everyone in a high-end audiophile discussion forum over their heads with his audio-DBT nonsense, whether they cared for it or not, and no matter what it did to the stability of the group (once the audiophile group becomes completely dysfunctional because of the "DBT wars" him and his cohorts create, he'll simply leave it and infect another one). He preaches his worthless DBT audio scam like Jim Baker preaches Christ. People eventually learn that debating with "jj" is a waste of time because although his arguments for his DBT dogma have been refuted literally hundreds of times, he ignores all evidence that points to the pseudoscientific aspects of audio-DBT's. It's just like arguing with any religious man, telling them there's no such thing as "God", and hoping that with evidence and reason, you will eventually change their mind.

And I'm not just talking about "jj the cross-forum bashing troll" who came here recently from Hydrogen, after his other DBT-church brothers from that forum came to invade this forum with anti-audiophile propaganda. I'm talking about "jj the career anti-audiophile troll" who's been doing all of these things I named on various discussion forums for well over 15 years. My conclusion? The guy's a lunatic, pure and simple.

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Didn't you mention arny calling a person a peadefile (yes he misspelled it) in a post?
This ought to give members of Hydrogen and AVS confidence.

Arny did far more than call someone a "pedophile". He once accused a group of people on a discussion forum, all of whom happened to be against his ABX propaganda by some strange coincidence (and no one who wasn't made the list), of sending him child pornography; a felony accusation (it was later proven by a net investigator to be a false accusation, and at one point, the Grosse Pointe Woods police were contacted with a complaint against him for making these false accusations). He even implicated JA in all of this, IIRC. A truly sordid affair, and if this lowlife troll wasn't hiding behind a PC when he accused people of this, I guarantee you he would've been beaten within an inch of his life.

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sasaudio: What is amazing is this is the first string, and only the last few pages, that I have ever replied to J_J, and suddenly I am a stalker??

"jj": It's what you write, not how often.

"jj", or whatever your name is, you're suffering from extreme paranoia. Please get help for it. According to the fact that one person writes one post to you in his life and you call him a "stalker", you probably think everyone in the mall is "stalking you", because they keep looking at you or passing you by. They're looking at you, because you're just odd. If you keep ranting to yourself like you do, you should expect that sort of thing. I'm telling you, there's too many nuts on your banana split. Get help. Now.

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In short, you lie about my positions, attack positions I do not hold, propose completely crazy accusations (about who I am, etc, that you posted "scientific" issues when they were in fact ridiculous, conflated attempts to put a false opinion at my feet, and there was no science involved, only rabid foaming at the mouth from your side), and so on.

The only "rabid foaming at the mouth" has been from you. No one has done any of these silly things you constantly accuse people here of. If this were the case, you'd be able to do more than produce thse foam-at-the-mouth rants, you'd show evidence to back your case up. As it stands, you can't even sign your name to your own posts, so I hope you're not expecting anyone to take your ranting seriously.

Have a nice stay.

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Well, JJ was commenting over on HA about Jan's melt-down, and I wondered if I could one-up JJ and get Jan to *really* melt down. It only took me 3 days.

I came I saw, and I conqueored. ;-)

Way to go, Krueger! Spoken like the true internet forum troll that you are! Make sure you mention this "victory" to the boys over at Hydrogen in whatever sister thread you started. And thanks for proving what I've said about you, and the reasons for which you are here. You came, you saw, you "conqueored". "Conqueored" who exactly, one might ask? Far as I can tell, you're as much a laughingstock here as you were on RAO. All you've managed to do here is all you ever managed to do on RAO for 20 years - turn people off from your pseudoscientific drivel about listening tests and how everything in audio sounds the same, and alienate lurkers from you and anyone who looks or sounds anything like you.

As for "conqueoring" Jan, you're simply revealing your fatted ignorance about this forum. Jan "melts down" as you call it, if they make his cappuccino too strong. He melts down if it's too hot. He melts down if the pressure isn't between 8 and 10 bar. It's an Italian thing. You Wasp ass that you are, wouldn't understand. So don't pat yourself on the back like that. When as anyone here knows, anyone and anything could trigger Jan, claiming like a fool that this is some sort of "triumph" on your part, is like claiming you made the sun rise this morning. You came, you saw, you passed gas. That's ALL I've seen you manage to do so far. This isn't RAO where you win "points" for getting someone to sound like something other than a "bot". And BTW, I happen to like Jan's rants for the most part. They are plays of passion. They show he's human. You OTOH have been regarded by most who've come to know you as something rather less than human. Given the breadth and depth of attacks on forum members that I've seen from you over the years, I'll take Jan's honest and honorable rants over your lowly dishonest accusations of pedophilia upon group members.

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I'm always in it for the learning experience. My most recent one is realizing that there are people so intellectually shallow as to believe in "Proof by Insult". As I mentioned to Ethan, I'm always into it for the new learning experience! ;-)

The question I'm currently trying to answer is whether or not there is any intelligent life here aside from the forum moderator and outsiders such as JJ, Ethan and I.

It will be interesting to see if she has the guts to return, after she scopes out the situation.
If she becomes a regular here, then were're not in Kansas any more! ;-)

Spoken like the true internet forum troll that you are! Thank you for making your pseudoscience so appealing to everyone! And hearty good luck to you in trying to turn this into your beloved RAO, which you trolled for 18 years straight. I'm sure your attempts will really turn out swell for you in the end. I guess you're really here because you wouldn't get away with insulting people like this on Hydrogen or AVS; which are very strictly controlled and heavily moderated forums. So it sure looks like you miss your rec.audio.opinion, Krueger. And BTW, thanks for calling Ethan an "outsider". I've always felt the same way about him. Despite his years of posting here, this is probably the only thing you or I will ever agree on. Do you also agree that he's only here in the hopes of selling the odd bass trap?

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Right, arnie, you didn't come here to discuss, exchange ideas and allow freedom of thought. None of you trolls are here for that. Why build up when it's so much easier to tear something down. Particularly something someone else has built up.

You came to "conqueor". "Conqueor"? OK, I suppose in your fervor to spit out an insult you haven't figured out proof reading a simple sentence. We'll go with "conquer" and leave it at that unless you want to claim that it is too "anti-science" for you.

"Conquer".

Sounds rather Nazi-esque to me.

It's a German thing. You wouldn't understand.

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Arny did far more than call someone a "pedophile". He once accused a group of people on a discussion forum, all of whom happened to be against his ABX propaganda by some strange coincidence (and no one who wasn't made the list), of sending him child pornography; a felony accusation (it was later proven by a net investigator to be a false accusation, and at one point, the Grosse Pointe Woods police were contacted with a complaint against him for making these false accusations). He even implicated JA in all of this, IIRC. A truly sordid affair, and if this lowlife troll wasn't hiding behind a PC when he accused people of this, I guarantee you he would've been beaten within an inch of his life.

Tsk tsk tsk!

arnie, you little diaper wearing pajama clad weasel, that's f'ing nuts!

Good thing for you that you hide behind a dozen different names, eh? Otherwise, we'd have lost our precious little arrrrrnie to a broken neck - and worse. Then what would we have done for laughs?

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Actually, tinnitus has been described for centuries, and there is, in the literature, very little support for the idea that people didn't believe it.

LOL Michigan!

Hey, has Arny ever published a list of what he can and can't hear?

Getting back to the subject at hand, given that at least half the people here could not hear the difference between the files that MF posted, it is fair to say that the difference that Furutech makes (if any) is not "substantial and obvious" nor can "everyone hear it" as MF suggested.

Not at all. I don't know where you get that. Your biases I suppose. Whether it's "substantial and obvious" is really more of a statement on your hearing ability, than the DUT. Presuming you even listened to MF's files, that would explain your conundrum. I believe you are stretching MF's words when you claim he suggested everyone in the world will hear its effect. I recognize this as something eternal skeptics like to do a lot. I took what he said to simply mean everyone he tested it on. You know, the -reasonable- interpretation, that non-extremists are more likely to make.

We can go back and forth for weeks (as we have) trying to argue the validity of the tests, insult each other, and call our respective mothers names. The fact is that Furutech treatment is controversial and does not lend itself to superlatives and proclamations showered upon this product by MF.

The "fact is"? I'll tell you what the "fact is". The "fact is" Alex, you never even listened to the Furutech. Thus, you have no opinion on it, and are hardly in a position to be declaring "facts" on the device. You would do well to keep that in mind. I will agree the device is controversial. No arguing that, but then, everything that isn't smack dab in the middle of the core basics of audio science, is "controversial" with you people.

Take from this experience whatever you wish and let's close this thread.

Oh, because you just declared it should be so? There are people still discussing the relevant topic at hand. So how about you just leave the thread instead, if you're not interested. Especially since I don't recall you contributing anything that would advance it to begin with, unless you want to include your weekly summations. I mean it's not like it's going to dog you around, if it's still alive. If I see you back in this thread, we'll have to assume you changed your mind all of a sudden, and decided no, you don't want it closed after all. Something tells me you're going to change your mind. How would I know that? Let's just say I know how the mind of an internet skeptic works. I learned a lot from working with Randi.

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LOL Michigan!

Hey, has Arny ever published a list of what he can and can't hear?

Yes. As I recall, anything under $500 and over 50 cents.

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Getting back to the subject at hand, given that at least half the people here could not hear the difference between the files that MF posted, it is fair to say that the difference that Furutech makes (if any) is not "substantial and obvious" nor can "everyone hear it" as MF suggested.

Not at all. I don't know where you get that. Your biases I suppose. Whether it's "substantial and obvious" is really more of a statement on your hearing ability, than the DUT. Presuming you even listened to MF's files, that would explain your conundrum. I believe you are stretching MF's words when you claim he suggested everyone in the world will hear its effect. I recognize this as something eternal skeptics like to do a lot. I took what he said to simply mean everyone he tested it on. You know, the -reasonable- interpretation, that non-extremists are more likely to make.

I quote the statement MF made a few pages ago on this thread: I'm asked to jump through hoops to "prove" what everyone easily hears....

Obviously, not everyone hears this and given that about half the people who heard the files and reported that they heard little to no difference means that the differences, if there are any, are not obvious.

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We can go back and forth for weeks (as we have) trying to argue the validity of the tests, insult each other, and call our respective mothers names. The fact is that Furutech treatment is controversial and does not lend itself to superlatives and proclamations showered upon this product by MF.

The "fact is"? I'll tell you what the "fact is". The "fact is" Alex, you never even listened to the Furutech. Thus, you have no opinion on it, and are hardly in a position to be declaring "facts" on the device. You would do well to keep that in mind. I will agree the device is controversial. No arguing that, but then, everything that isn't smack dab in the middle of the core basics of audio science, is "controversial" with you people.

I have listened to the files that MF posted, which according to him make it readily apparent the difference that Furutech makes. I was one of the first people to post my opinion. I could not hear a difference between the two files.

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Take from this experience whatever you wish and let's close this thread.

Oh, because you just declared it should be so? There are people still discussing the relevant topic at hand. So how about you just leave the thread instead, if you're not interested. Especially since I don't recall you contributing anything that would advance it to begin with, unless you want to include your weekly summations. I mean it's not like it's going to dog you around, if it's still alive. If I see you back in this thread, we'll have to assume you changed your mind all of a sudden, and decided no, you don't want it closed after all. Something tells me you're going to change your mind. How would I know that? Let's just say I know how the mind of an internet skeptic works. I learned a lot from working with Randi.

I suggested that this thread be closed because it turned into a never ending pissing match as your response to me clearly indicates.

jj wrote: You are attempting to argue that because we do not know everything (and can never do so) we, in fact, know nothing.

Jan Vigne replied: Actually, I think that's what you guys are arguing.

"That's astute, I said". You've summed up the audio-pseudoscience evangelist's paradox quite nicely here, Jan. What they accuse listeners of is the very thing they are condemned by. Or a slight variation on the theme being, they believe that because we may not yet know everything, it can be automatically presumed that there is nothing to know! If that isn't an assault on the practice of science by the DBT brigade who pretend to speak on behalf of it, I don't know what is.

>>> "You are attempting to argue that because we do not know everything (and can never do so) we, in fact, know nothing. This is, in fact, false, it is quite possible to disprove a particular hypothesis without knowing the nature of life, the universe, and everything." <<<

I would NEVER attempt to argue that because we do not know something, we in fact, know nothing !! I used the tinnitus example as a response to Ethan's facetious "Okay May, I guess we should also believe everyone who says they were abducted by UFOs and probed anally, eh? Hey, they experienced it so it must be true!"

>>> "understanding what is actually audible as a result of the sound in the air vs. what is the result of a purely perceptual process not involving the actual sound, is very, very difficult, and requires enormous care when doing so." <<<

Of course. I usually describe that in much more simplistic terms - although just because I might use simplistic terms does not mean that I do not fully understand the difficulties..

My simplistic description is that the information which finally reaches the working memory (the result of the sound in the air) is interpreted (and identified) by the working memory using a combination of that acoustic information AND what the working memory has 'in store' as it were, so that the working memory can identify and present as good a 'sound picture' to the brain as it can !!

>>> "Actually, tinnitus has been described for centuries, and there is, in the literature, very little support for the idea that people didn't believe it." <<<

Very little support for the idea that people didn't believe it ?????????????? Really !
Are you really trying to tell us that people, when describing hearing noises and 'ringing' in their ears when everyone else in the room were only experiencing total silence were NOT told that they must be "imagining it" ??????? Knowing real life as I do I would strongly suspect that, over the centuries of people describing their tinnitus problems, that many of them would have had to fight tooth and nail to be believed !!!

>>> "The interesting thing is that the origins of otoacoustic emission and tinnitus are still very much under examination for the "how" and "why"." <<<

Very interesting indeed !! Yes. The "how" and "why". NOW we are onto something - words like "how" and "why". Amazing. Now, with apologies, I am going to be facetious !
How, at page 73, have we suddenly got to asking the questions "how" and "why" ? Why could we not get to asking those questions on Page 2 ????

Regards,
May Belt.

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I quote the statement MF made a few pages ago on this thread: I'm asked to jump through hoops to "prove" what everyone easily hears....

Wow. It took you a whole 10 minutes to come back into the thread you say should be closed, which I predicted you would in my response to you 10 minutes ago. Congrats, you lasted even longer than my expectations, Alex!

I have no idea what you just said or what relevance it has to the subject at hand, which is why this thread should be closed as it has deteriorated to the point of sheer stupidity.

"Getting back to the subject at hand, given that at least half the people here could not hear the difference between the files that MF posted, it is fair to say that the difference that Furutech makes (if any) is not "substantial and obvious" nor can "everyone hear it" as MF suggested."

No, it's actually NOT fair to say. What IS fair to say is that the biggest objectors cannot hear. Or they are all thumbs. You tell me.

"We can go back and forth for weeks (as we have) trying to argue the validity of the tests, insult each other, and call our respective mothers names. The fact is that Furutech treatment is controversial and does not lend itself to superlatives and proclamations showered upon this product by MF."

Tiring of the fight, eh? Now that you bring it up, you guys HAVE been sounding a little beat the past few days. Not to worry, we won't stick it in too far.

"Take from this experience whatever you wish and let's close this thread."

Don't worry, I'll take from it exactly what should be taken. You guys are just sore cause you're losing. Can't say I blame ya for wantin' to save SOME face.

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I have no idea what you just said or what relevance it has to the subject at hand, which is why this thread should be closed as it has deteriorated to the point of sheer stupidity.

You have "no idea" what "it took you a whole 10 minutes to come back into the thread you say should be closed" means? Surely you must have been named the true leader of the Order of Eternal Skeptics. Well don't worry, Alex. I'm quite confident that as soon as you finally have the sense to leave the thread you keep insisting must close but you can't tear yourself away from, not even for 10 minutes, the sheer stupidity level will decrease by a significant amount.

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the differences, if there are any, are not obvious.

Dude, your hearing is defective. Obviously Froggie is a far more advanced audiophile than you because he heard a difference in the first three seconds. KBK can hear better than you too, as I'm sure he'll be glad to tell you in great detail. Indeed, what the hell are you even doing in this forum anyway? This forum is for advanced audiophiles like the Toadie, not pedestrian amateur listeners like you and me.

Of course, Toad couldn't identify my excerpts because he didn't already know which are which in advance. So all he has left is to complain my files are not correct extracts. I'm still chuckling over that.

--Ethan

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the differences, if there are any, are not obvious.

Dude, your hearing is defective. Obviously Froggie is a far more advanced audiophile than you because he heard a difference in the first three seconds. KBK can hear better than you too, as I'm sure he'll be glad to tell you in great detail. Indeed, what the hell are you even doing in this forum anyway? This forum is for advanced audiophiles like the Toadie, not pedestrian amateur listeners like you and me.

Of course, Toad couldn't identify my excerpts because he didn't already know which are which in advance. So all he has left is to complain my files are not correct extracts. I'm still chuckling over that.

--Ethan

Yeah, I know. Let's assume that they can all hear like friggin' dogs and that they can hear the difference in the files. Let's say that they are the "special" group that can really hear better than the average audiophile, much less the average Joe.

That would STILL make the Furutech tweak controversial and subject to skepticism because MF swore up and down that the difference was profound and that EVERYONE could hear it. Well, obviously not EVERYONE can hear it and even some of those who CAN hear it say that the difference is subtle.

So, even if we remove ourselves from the discussion of whether the stuff CAN work or if there are laws of physics that can substantiate Furutech's claims, the fact that over half the people who heard the files found little to no difference leads me to believe that the Furutech claims and MF's endorsements are suspect.

I can accept that I may not be able to hear the difference and I can accept that you can. However, we're talking a substantial number of people who can't hear the difference. We're talking people with ears, not deaf and stupid people like us.

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MF swore up and down that the difference was profound and that EVERYONE could hear it.

Why don't you show us those words in one of MF's posts? Show us where MF posted that "everyone" could hear the effects of demagnetizing a LP.

Or else stop trying to convince yourself that's what he said.

What's it matter to you anyway, Alex? You wouldn't buy one of these units unless you peeked at the book cost on it and got it for less than that since you know dealers are there just to rip you off.

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I can accept that I may not be able to hear the difference and I can accept that you can. However, we're talking a substantial number of people who can't hear the difference. We're talking people with ears, not deaf and stupid people like us.

Your "argument" is ridiculous, Alex. What you can't accept is that this does work because it would really upset your world.

I can accept that you can't hear what I listen for. Now, if you accept that, then you have nothing else to say on this matter - there is no controversy if you admit you or someone else can't hear what I listen for.