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The core issue was whether or not there was an audible difference.
The cause is irrelevant for the purposes of discussing what was heard.
You state that you knew in advance that it would make no difference and your desultory 'tests' fit your expectation bias.
Ethan, even Arny heard the difference. He posted his results, as well.
On the positive side, maybe a good time for a "master test disc" so people can see exactly how fine they can go with ABX with known differences.
I mean, if Arny can hear it, why not Ethan?
At least Arny acknowledged his expectation bias and tried to control for it.
Whoosh....those goalpasts moved so fast I got motion sickness! Note the vestibule was not "small." Acoustically, it is about the same size as Michael's listening room itself, ie, around 2500 cubic feet.
I have no idea what you are trying to say, Ethan. But your "not true" is just plain wrong. As I said you are confusing the mental constructs that the brain fabricates from the pressure waves reaching the ears - think phantom images - with the properties of the pressure waves themselves. The former cannot be realized without the latter but the two are not equivalent.
It is not a logical flaw. You are trying to argue that the spectral differences due to different positions of the listener in a room overwhelm the spectral differences due to a change in the system. This will be correct if the ear/brain system worked like a mono microphone and spectrum analyzer. But, as referred to above, it doesn't, instead applying a large amount of signal processing to the raw binaural data. You are incorrect, therefore, to refer to my argument as a "red herring." It is the core of our disagreement.
Don't you get tired of putting words in other people's mouths, Ethan"? When did I state that plastic can be magnetized? In fact, in every case I have used the word "demagnetized," I have put it in quotation marks to show that the usage is questionable and I have even explained this in the past. I have no idea why there should be a difference. But that does not mean there was no difference.
Go run your challenges on someone else, Ethan. I don't see why I have to prove anything. I reported what I perceived. And being unaware of the stimulus I had no expectation bias. You choose not to believe me, well, I don't have a problem with that.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
I can accept that. Not many of us know exactly how we are flawed. Take you for example, what keeps you here, arnie? Surely not me? Frog perhaps? Grudges to settle from 1971?
I'm the one that caused him to come here. What keeps the Arny troll here is open to speculation. Trying to sell his ABX fraud to lurkers, surely that's the primary reason. There's also the delight he takes in attacking JA on home turf. Then there's the thrill he gets attacking and insulting all audiophiles in general, and Stereophile readers in particular. And I figure he's doing all this from an internet caf
John, in my video, I joked about you guys evaluating vinyl record demagnetizers. Maybe it's time to confirm the viability of such a device in an official test.
Don't forget to test the device on colored records as well as black ones! (As if this thread isn't in enough trouble as it is!
)
That's still small enough for substantial changes in frequency response to occur over very small distances.
Not at all! I'm stating that your position in the room surely changed the response you perceived. And also that "demagnetizing" a record does not constitute a "change in the system" in any way a reasonable and sane person could define "change."
When you stated that you heard a difference after the plastic was demagnetized, concluding or at least implying that the demagnetization affected the sound. Rather than the vastly more reasonable conclusion of comb filtering, or that your ears or perception failed you.
Of course you'd say that rather than risk being shown to have hearing that's as frail as everyone else. The bottom line is it's far less effort for you to play my 10-second excerpts and report what you heard than it was to make a CD of the original files and mail them to me via USPS. Indeed, reporting what you heard is your job! Except when there's a risk that you might have to take back what you said you heard the first time.
--Ethan
You can't test this stuff Fran
Man, I would love to read some of DUP's old posts to see what got him banned in the first place.
You are correct, I have not taken his test. The reason is simple, If the process involves more than putting a CD in a tray and pushing play, I do not do it. No downloads, no computer gbberish, not for me. I simply do not have a setup that involves a computer in my audio system and intend to keep it that way.
You still here? What happened to your previous BS claim that "continued argument is moot"? Changed your mind about that? What about your other BS claim to me, "I do not have a dog in this fight"? Sounds like you're shoving your dog back into the ring, while he's fighting against you to do that. I'll humour you anyway, because when it comes to "weakness of argument", I don't think I've ever seen anyone weaker than you. You seem to think that by ignoring refutations of your worthless arguments, and just parroting whatever the hell Ethan told you to say to me in email, that you're "winning" something. Brilliant! For an Ethan-apologist, you're doing about as well as can be expected.
Ok, so let's put your silly argument in perspective, "JIMV": Here you are once again demanding that I take a test given by my enemy which has been (sarcasm mode: on) "cleverly devised" (sarcasm mode: off) by him in the hopes of getting back at me for his failings. A test in which he rigged the files so that they all sound the same, and nothing like the originals ("clever boy" that Ethan). A test you are still insisting I take, which you haven't taken and insist you won't take yourself.
Brilliant!
For an Ethan apologist, you're nearly half as smart as your master. Now let's look at the reasons you won't take your master's test, because they had me rolling on the floor: While demanding that I take his bogus vengeance test, you're refusing to do so yourself because you admit you can't handle anything more complicated than putting a CD in a tray, and maybe, if you're particularly lucid that day, you might be able to figure out how to push "play".
Also, you don't know how to download anything, and "computers are all gbberish" to you. Well, at least this means that next to Ethan, you're a computer expert. Furthermore, you tell me that you don't have your computer connected to an audio system. Well usually it's the other way around. People have audio on their computer systems these days. Welcome to the 21st century! (They've had multimedia computers since the 20th century, btw). So unless you bought your computer for 50 rubles from a street vendor during the fall of the soviet empire, it's probably "multimedia" capable.
As I posted, I do not have the slightest idea how to use the files in question
And yet somehow, you're able to figure out just enough of how computers work to troll me. Amazing!
BUT, based on your arguments, it does sound like you do..
Yes, but Ethan's files contain a virus which messed with my microwave oven. It's only because I know how to deal with this computer stuff, that it didn't get to affect my car. Others can risk their lives if they want, but no way am I ever going near those files again, Jimv. In the parlance of computer audio experts to which you are not privvy, they are known as "scumware".
I am sorry, but until you give it a go, I will be forced to consider your argument very weak indeed.
Help me figure this out, because I'm coming up blank: What in God's name makes you think I actually care about your opinion of me?
Note, I suspect you are right about an effect. I simply speak to your argument.
Gotcha. You can stfu now.
Actually, I was directing that statement your way, as in 'YOU had not said anything new in 20 pages so your continuing the fight without taking the test was an exercise in time wasting'...
Hope that helps.
And an ego as big as all outdoors...You have posted scores if not hundreds of posts on this thread and I have responded to a half dozen...This might come as a shock to you but the world, much less this thread, does not rotate around you. As YOU were the fellow refusing to run the file comparison, directing my comments, which still stand, your way sort of makes sense.
You make a weak argument...fix it.
Perhaps your producing a few thousand words directed my way?
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.audio...ueger+sociopath
Holycrap!
Does this mean it is now acceptable on this forum to call another member a "liar and a fraud" for no reason other than because you feel like calling them a "liar and a fraud"? Without even providing any evidence of these accusations? You may have reached a new low, Ethan. Yes, even for you! I know you're very angry about something, what I don't know. Because I frankly have no idea what makes you think you can just blurt out "Frog you are a liar and a fraud", other than false bravado and an unyielding desire to attack the character of anyone who disagrees with anything you say. Do you ever take responsibility for anything you say, you relentless troll? Or must you always make these hit and run accusations, then hide like a coward when you're called to defend your attacks? I already told you how many times that I don't care about your stupid "short excerpt" files, and I'm not interested in participating in your silly vengeance test. To say that makes me a "liar and a fraud" because I don't care to test your files, is as stupid and ridiculous as saying everyone else in the world who doesn't care about your files is a "liar and a fraud".
What is it about you miserable DBT freaks that even the basics of logic, never mind science, completely elude you??
Ok, I will man up and admit you can't tell which file is which. Of your own files. Or MF's files. Or FC's files. Or anyone else's files. Or which sound card is which. Or which amp is which. Hell, you probably couldn't even tell if you climbed into bed with Jason Alexander.
But Whiner, since you won't stop living up to your name and Whining about these bogus files of yours, I will agree to give them a listen. Once you stop behaving like a coward for once in your life, and agree to listen to Fresh Clip's files, as I and others here have challenged you to do for weeks now. I don't want to hear any more of your wimpy copout excuses about how you don't need to listen to FC's files to know what they sound like. Stop making stupid excuses about how you can't figure out how to download them while everyone else can, and post which one of the 4 you believe is the demagged version. After you listen to them, if you can't tell which of FC's files is which, as everyone here can predict, then post that result. When Fresh Clip posts the answers to the challenge, I think that will say it all about you and your infamous deafness. If you're not willing to do this, then stfu about your "short excerpt" files.
I can tell you what got him banned in the first and the second place. And it wasn't "The Little Black Kid" joke.
Firstly, the in-room measurements of the Wilson MAXX2s was -3db below 20Hz. There's really good LF extension in the room. Secondly, the differences when you demag a record are not subtle. Everyone who's been here, audiophile and non-audiophile alike hears it. People who know zero about audio hear the difference. And I don't put words in their mouths. I play a tune and then say "I'm going to do something and play it again. Tell me if you hear any difference, or no difference." They all hear a difference and without prompting, hear a difference in high frequency energy, spatiality (voices are further back in space) and sometimes that translates to improved bass definition as well, but usually they hear the top end differences first. It is not a subtle thing at all!
Your thought that mastering and pressing differences are "overblown" is just crazy. And "crazy" is the right word. Different vinyl formulations sound very different as anyone who presses records will confirm with great certainty. Pallas, RTI and the others all use different formulations. All you need to do is have Classic send you the same stamper pressing a record on their "Clarity" semi-clear vinyl and on their standard black vinyl and you'll hear a big, not subtle difference. Demag the black one and it sounds similar to the semi-clear one, which has not magnetic qualities. Every mastering chain uses different playback gear and electronics. These chains are like Hi-fi's in reverse. So I guess if you think differences among playback gear are "overblown" too, you would think it all sounds the same going in...but the people at these places know that's simply not true....and it's not just because they make eq choices based on the speakers (which are all different, of course).
What the hell is that all about?
Me upset by the usual suspects trying to pass off the usual crap as if it were ice cream?
Nahh!
You apparently don't care enough to give it your very best.
If comb filtering will put Elle in my room I want some.
Antbody wanna buy my room treatments ?
JA says:
You respond:
And then on the Room Tuning and Acoustics forum you state:
That's some fancy cubic foot work.
As always, Buddha, you hit the nail on the head. I tried to get Ethan to comprehend that when the same person speaks in two different positions in a room, the measured difference in the spectra of that voice is extreme - due to Ethan's infamous comb filtering" - yet the computer that processes the signals from our ears readily identifies that voice as belonging to the same person.
Ethan wonders why I don't ascribe the difference I heard at Mikey's to this comb filtering? Because I don't subscribe to his particular belief system.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
Gulp. Yeah, I apparently missed the irony in its entirety. I apologize. (I'll still be using Adblock Plus though.)
That said, I'm still not really sure that this fight will bring that much traffic. Otherwise, RAO would be prime advertising real estate.
That does remind me: Your smiley came through fine, but the smiley icons don't really seem to work on this board....
And there we have it. THE END.
Here is the final credit to this film.
Some people believe with great fervor preposterous things that just happen to coincide with their self-interest. We the people may not prohibit the holding of these beliefs, but we may penalize people who act on them. (emphasis added).
--Anonymous
Thanks for responding.
Just dropping the whole ABX thing (and the related discussion on listening or the lack thereof) on the floor for now... has anybody found a playback system that does not reproduce these differences? ie, can you get these improvements with the CD you ripped for us in your main rig, but can you not hear them if ripped to ALAC and played on your iPod with headphones?
Oh hell no - I'm not going to dispute that vinyl formulations matter. There's obviously enough deviation in noise levels, distortion, antistatic properties, resilience to high tracking forces, etc to not dispute them on even ABX grounds. I've never heard a UHQR pressing but I know the story and I really hope that modern pressings eventually attain that level of quality (again).
That said, I have heard a negative review about the Clarity pressings specifically, and with all the other negative reports about Classic, I'm not really in a position to take the time/money to get a good example of it. For that matter, Classic has had such a terrible QC reputation that I'm not sure I could ever get any kind of representative sample of their vinyl.
My listening experiences appear to contradicts yours on a number of different points, not just on demagnetization. And I don't have a problem disagreeing with more experienced audio engineers who can't back their sh*t up. Audio engineering is not a field that engenders respect of authority figures. Does that really make me "really" "crazy"?
The only comb filter I know of is the type that's used to reduce dot crawl in a composite video signal. Very useful when you still have a large collection of Laserdiscs.
Anyway, you people do make me laugh. It's truly surprising that no one has yet tested the device to positively confirm that, at the very least, you did hear an audible difference. One single incident is simply not enough to come to any decisive conclusion.
And now for his second act, Arny the Sociopath shows us what he is best known for on the internet discussion forums. Lying.
Excellent reputation? Ok Arnold, let's take a look-see at some of your DBT-church brother's "excellent reputation", from this thread alone, going back no further than one week:
"I have no reason to believe anything you say. You do not impress me in any way. I do not trust you."
"I feel that limited experience is more valuable than pseudo-scientific ideals based on skepticism and ignorance, which is all you seem to offer."
- Stephen Mejias
"Don't you get tired of putting words in other people's mouths, Ethan"?
- John Atkinson
"Let me clarify my position further - you're familiar with the 'ignore' feature on the forum? I've put you on 'irrelevant'."
- Michael Lavorgna
"You also criticize the subjectivists, but state merely that you clicked back and forth a few times, already expecting no difference, and were rewarded with your expected result. Did you dunk witches in a previous life? "
- Buddha
"Your work here isn't done. You just need to go back to your lair and get one of your butt-buddies to pull your string again. Ethan, the little string-pulled windup troll."
- Lamont Sanford
"I may be naive, but at least I'm consistent!"
- Ethan Winer
Wow. That -is- an "excellent reputation" Arny. For a zero-cred troll, I mean. So I can see why you're impressed by Ethan's reputation. But what about your reputation? Is it as "excellent" as Ethan's? Is your friend and DBT witness Ethan as equally impressed by your reputation? Let's take a look-see! Then we'll ask him, 'kay?!
"arny k. has been _killfiled_ by the majority of 'posters' here" - Greg
"It is kind of hard to stay on topic when you are being abused by someone who
appears insane." - G. Molinari
"I am starting to think he's a freakin' psychopath at the minute." - jj, curmudgeon and tiring philalethist (yes folks, THAT "jj", recently seen trolling this forum)
"Your reply seems to be filled with all manner of paranoid delusions, and I'm
under no pretense that I can cure you of them." - J. Benchimol
"Many are misguided, but few if any are so egregiously dishonest as Arny..." - Stewart Pinkerton
"Just what is it that you are after, Arny? You appear to be letting a
religious sensibility dominate your enjoyment of audio. It is, after all,
just a hobby." - Howard Ferstler
"Oh dear - it looks as if you've been stuck in the same rut for at least 9
years now Arny. Spamming. Trolling. Flaming. Abuse and name calling of those
who disagree with you. Denials of responsibility. It must be tough to change
the habits of a lifetime." - Doug
(n.b. This was written in 2002! That makes 16 years of Arny trolling, spamming, abusing, denials of responsibility and name-calling those who disagree with him on audio discussion groups. )
"Simply put, Mr. Krueger is here to wage war, not merely a battle here and
there. I prefer not to engage him directly, but there are times when
confrontation - I hesitate to call it dialogue - is required." - Edward M. Shain
"In short, *reality itself* must be transmogrified in order to conform to
Arny's overarching compulsion to be correct." - Zelniker
"It also seems I'm not the first to notice that you recycle (and in the
process, corrupt) other people's work into your daft ideas. Or the constantly
repeated circular arguments that supposedly "prove" your case. Or
to complain about your language and lack of manners. Or your habit of heading
for the hills when the argument gets too close to revealing just how much of
a prat you are." - Doug
"In a way, you're right. I do not feel empathy for a sick, unfeeling
sociopath who is missing a concscience. I'm sure this is reflected in
my posts to you, and my utter disdain for you." - Jamie
"Almost everyone else, including a lot of those who generally see audio from
your perspective, see you for the disgusting slime that you are." - Art Sackman
"Arny's defenders and apologists need to recognize this sad state of affairs
and realize that doing so is not tantamount to endorsing The Other Side.
Rather, they should realize that there are a number of good scientists and
engineers who will not entertain serious debate with Arny. It's exhausting
and entirely unrewarding. All I can hope to do is point out his serious screw-ups and hope
you (the rest of RAO, that is) will realize I am correct." - Zelniker
"I am a master baiter. I won't deny it. If anybody asks me whether I design my posts to obtain certain reactions, I
will freely admit it."
- Arnold "Kareer Troll" Krueger
"Habits" are hard to break, aren't they, Krueger?
source: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.comp.periphs.soundcard.sblive/msg/5e74f448e39b8de6?hl
This is why I'm mostly ignoring you these days.
So basically, your personal belief system tells you to ignore anyone and everyone who has the slightest disagreement with your perpetual nonsense claims, or questions you on them. Got it. I don't know if you know this, but that doesn't seem to be working very well for you, credibility-wise.
Okay, let me get this straight. You are in a small vestibule where the bass response can change over literally one or two inches as you move around, and you'd rather believe that the change in bass level was due to demagnetizing a piece of plastic rather than your positional change in the vestibule?
Logical fallacy #5034: strawman argument. Hey look, one of your favorite logical fallacies, Ethan. It must be, you engage in it often enough!
I can't imagine Arny is influenced one way or the other by that. Hell, I'm glad to see you make money off the forum. If you didn't the forum would cease to exist to the detriment of everyone.
And there go your bass trap sales Ethan! So make sure the Krueger troll is hungry. Don't worry, I'll do my part to feed it. I don't want to see this lovely forum become a victim of the recession.
And reasonable people who are science-based would have one less platform to educate those willing to read and learn from both sides.
Translation: Irrational, dogmatic and unreasonable people who are no more than pseudoscientific preachers would have one less platform to brainwash those willing to be brainwashed by their misguided pseudoscientific BS. On second thought, maybe I shouldn't feed you trolls.
Of course you'd say that rather than risk being shown to have hearing that's as frail as everyone else. The bottom line is it's far less effort for you to play my 10-second excerpts blah blah blah siss boom bah
No Whiner, the "bottom line" is the only reason you're begging JA, and anyone else you think would care, to listen to your BS doctored snippets of MF's files, is because you've fixed the test so that it's impossible to hear differences. Probably by using 4 copies of the same file. This way you can play "gotcha!" with JA or me, or others that make you very angry because we're not deaf and can hear obvious differences that you are oblivious to. Then you can say "Look fellas! These guys have frail hearing! See, I told you all along! That's why I couldn't hear diddly squat!".
And the -bottom- "bottom line" is this: you've proven yourself to be a lying troll by claiming that if JA can't hear your files, it means he didn't hear the Furutech. Another logical fallacy from you. I believe "disingenuous" is the polite word usually attributed to you when you behave this way (which is often). I don't think you deserve politeness, given your abusive, unprovoked character attacks of late.
This thread has been hard on my monitor what with all the spittakes I've had to clean off of it.
You're not well informed on the facts, then. Several posters in this thread have tried the deMag, myself included. I can positively confirm that I heard an audible difference, so did the party I was with. However, those who have ranted against the deMag, such as Ethan Whiner and Arny, not only have no clue about it, but have never even seen the device in person, let alone tried it. The only way anyone can come to a "decisive conclusion" about the deMag, is to try the device. It's certainly not listening to the bogus doctored 10-second files that Ethan has been trying to shove down people's throats here all week, to dishonestly claim the deMag does nothing (in pursuit of his anti-high end audio agenda), that will allow you to come to a decisive conclusion on this product.
After having analyzed Fremer's original files, the only thing one can conclude from Ethan's files, is that Ethan is a fraud.
Ask the guy who sets them up - John Atkinson
I was unware that you were part of the debate.
If we had people saying that the Furutech makes Elle McPherson's voice sound like Ethan's wife's or anybody else but Elle McPherson, then the example would be relevant.
However, nobody is saying that, and so John's homey little example is irrelevant. Presenting it is a serious error in logic and is obviously the result of a seriously flawed belief system.
Since I have again shown that John's belief system is grossly flawed, that would be a good thing for Ethan.
JA has already answered that question a few pages back in direct response to one of your posts:
It's worth noting that Google agrees with JA. A search for "arny krueger" returns links to the Stereophile 'debate' as the most relevant results. Of course we're only talking about Google's idea of relevance on the internet which doesn't take into account factors such as shoe size and self-importance.
Geeezloooouise, arrrnieeeeeeee!!!!
Read the post, man! Look at what's in quotes, look at the name of the person who first posted the quote, then look at the address under that name and click on that link. That's what they're there for, arnie. So you can relive your "glory days" with Boon on another forum you trolled. Seems everywhere you go, people dislike you - intensely.
Geez, arnie, can't you get any of this straight?!
Let's compare that to a search for say, John Atkinson. He's so well buried that its hard to tell which items for him and which are for someone else.
At least, searches for my name lead to articles about *me*!
Ditto for Michael a Vorgna, I guess.
Why bring in bile from RAO?
Interesting that you choose to quote the technical editor of Tone Audio.
What to say to someone who is so lame that he depends on other people to write his insults for him?
Insults to you, I'm sure, information to me and I imagine to a lot of other folks here on the always sedate, always peaceful shores of Stereophile forums. Until recently, I didn't believe mega-trolls like you actually existed. I thought they were just used as stories to scare small children and editors of audio forums. You know all these editors by name don't you? They've all threatened to have you ... what? what have they threatened you with, arnie?
But here you are, along with all your friends - hey, you didn't mention the "AttaBoy" I posted from Ethan for you having at the "anti-science" JA - and all the spam that you seem you bring with you. Do you get a cut from the Marlboro guy? Seems like that would only be fair for what you do for him on all the forums you abuse.
I try to read your stuff but I get so lost in the nonsense I need to drop breadcrumbs to find my way out and I think, "Arnie, you are insane, paranoid and out of control." I didn't say it - about a thousand people before me did. Now I'm finding all those people and just what a "guy" you really are. Geeeeez, arnie! You can't even keep stories straight, you can't keep the people you want to insult straight, you just kneejerk your way through all of this. What's the point? Just to see your name insulted everywhere? What a life!
It seems you are unaware of the use of analogy, Mr. Krueger. If you are confused, try substituting the words "sound source" for "person's voice."
Please explain the error in my logic, Mr. Krueger. So far, all you have to have done is demonstrate that you'd rather appear to be ignorant of common English usage than appear to be incorrect :-)
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
Yes. But if you
How many forums are you gonna abuse today, arnie? Do you set a goal for the day? You work long hours at this I can tell. And nothing stops you, does it? Geez, I've heard about that one. Your reputation is well deserved just not what most people would want on their headstone.
With the resume you have when someone does a search for your name, I wouldn't be proud of the results. Even the other trolls badmouth you.
Michael A. Vorgna wrote: Yes. But if you'd like to attach any more significance to that than the fact that your chosen nickname "Arny Krueger" is simply less common, we'll have to address the non-Google alternatives. What size is your shoe? ;-)
It should be noted that the troll has changed both his first and last names over his lengthy trolling career various ways. At first I thought it was because he was confused again or filled with his notable self-hate or upset with his parents, until I checked with his beloved "Ockham's Razor". Which told me it was probably to avoid the increasing number of people setting up killfile filters for him.
Arnold Kruegr wrote: Why bring in bile from RAO?
Good question. Thank you for asking. I won't speak for why anyone else did so, but I'll tell you why I did: because you created much of the "bile" on RAO. Because you came here complaining that Stereophile was looking like RAO to you, and now, I see by your abusive replies to other members (not to mention the spam you seem to have brought with you), you seem to be intent on re-creating your precious rec.audio.opinion group right here on Stereophile. The very publication you used to attack relentlessly on RAO, ironically. Of which you wrote:
"I think Stereophile is a classic piece of propaganda. Well-formed
propaganda is a mixture of truth and lies. The truth sells the lies.
Stereophile seems to primarily exist with the purpose of fostering
the sales of overpriced, under-performing audio gear and out-and-out
audio snake oil."
- Arnold/Arny/Arnii Krueger/Kruger/Krooger
Hey look Arnold, you even have JA to write lying character attacks about, as you used to do with gleeful abandon on RAO. It must be thrilling for you to be here, to get the opportunity to fully revive your trolling career, and call John Atkinson a "liar" for the 5,000th time. You must be doing something for the page views or whatever, because if this was my group, I'd have had you tossed out on your ass the moment you walked in the door. And that's even if I knew half of what I know about you.
What to say to someone who is so lame that he depends on other people to write his insults for him?
Spoken like a true troll, Arnold.
Let's compare that to a search for say, John Atkinson. He's so well buried that its hard to tell which items for him and which are for someone else.
I see you're still confused again this morning, Arny. This is really easy, don't get flustered. Just search for the one they're calling a "career troll", and you'll be able to differentiate your posts from JA's.
At least, searches for my name lead to articles about *me*!
Yes. Unfortunately for you!
Why no rematch for the Big Debate?
Ask the guy who sets them up - John Atkinson
Wait... yesterday you said you weren't interested in a rematch of the debate, because it would "bore you" (yeah, I can understand why you would get bored of having your ass handed over to you on a plate, or being made a fool of in front of a live audience). Today you suggest otherwise. You contradict yourself so often, I don't know how you expect anyone to ever take you seriously. Still, I have to believe that you really do want another 15 minutes of being made a fool of before a live audience. Doesn't every day on the forums satisfy that need?
(BTW, prompted by JA's schooling of you on his Furutech experience, I have a bet going on how long it will take you to figure out how the spectrum analyzer measures sound vs. how the mind measures sound. My coin is on "never").
Being a n00b here, I must admit that ignorance is bliss.
You know, if I had known about all of this BEFORE the Salon Son & Image, I might have organized an "ultimate test" of the device for my video. But now, it'll have to wait until next year, or when a special audition is held within affordable travel distance from my camera equipment.
I'll get myself a flash based high definition camcorder so that camera noise doesn't become a factor -- or an excuse.
As far as records needing to 'relax' (stressing of the vinyl, or 'liquidation' of the vinyl from the intense pressures) as a potential issue, I have gone through the effort to have 6-8 copies of individual records that I use for evaluations.
I test that the two sound the same (purchased new at the same time from the same pressing), let them relax for a few days-weeks..and then conduct an experiment on one and then compare the two.
The difference remains, so the 'repeat' on the same record as 'possibly' an effect that might throw things off..is eliminated.
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I think I have more iterated that the source of the issue comes from one man thinking that the world of logic and all answers flow from their head, ie an attempt to define all extant logic as their thought patterns and their limits -as externalized logic function for the rest of the world at large. This they indulge in, physiologically unaware that they do so-this is done by them to maintain their mental security. This is sadly common among linear thinking 'scientific types'..and is the horror and bane of real science and investigation.
Once again, the 'German school of thought' as a teaching and learning model comes to the fore and bites mankind square in the ass. This is the idea of theory being taught to engineering types as inescapable laws and fact. This is done as the idea that in reality, that there are no facts of any kind in existence, and there is only the one fact of their being NONE-all is theory, subject to change..well...!!
This reality causes distress in linear thinking types and the capacity for rote memory and attention to complex matters (limited), with a wide data set of various origins..escapes most engineering types. Besides, they regularly fail in the understanding of the roots of their own psychology, which is fundamental as a correct point in making 'decisions in observation'.
Basically, it's science teaching based on Jesuit rote repetitive teaching/learning indoctrination models..it is specifically NOT designed to teach thought and originality, or extrapolation. It is designed to grill in data sets..INTO the individual. That is not science, it is -SPECIFICALLY- engineering. Engineering is designed as a perfectly repetitive system and methodology, purposely..as it is designed for repeat use. It is specifically NOT explorative in nature, whereas science is the opposite.
So... the entire basis of scientific teaching for the engineering masses..as it stands today..is derived from Jesuit religious indoctrination models. It is a very sad note, is it not? **
Those people that are susceptible to such indoctrination invariably find themselves trapped in such systems, ignorant and unaware of such -as their entire existence can be and is reflected in that particular Status Quo. This sort of 'Religious indoctrination' ends up looking like an attempt (by the individual) to project the past-into the future.
This, by definition, removes, curtails or crushes by continual and active attack - much of proper exploration of fringe phenomena, which means that true cutting edge science is largely forbidden to be analyzed by the system.
This Rote system is so bad, that is possible and has been known to happen on many occasions that a person with eidetic memory function as their primary capacity..can achieve a so-called complex degree from given universities. This, as logical function is not tested overall, but rote memory function is somehow confabulated to mean capacity for reason. This is part and parcel of mediocrity attempting to rule the day, whereas a more advanced level and function is required.
This being the issue here in the world at large, and suffice it to say - I relegate such thinking (attempting to decide reality for the rest of us from a limited and incomplete data set) and people to the intellectual trash bin where they belong. Until or if they grow up and open their minds - that is.
This means that Arny's position and attitude is trash, and is specifically not science. It is merely incomplete engineering attempting to masquerade as science.
Individuals who put such rubbish thinking aside and open their minds, will find themselves moving forward quite quickly. This is, if they allow themselves to have a clear mind and not let the more 'comfortable' aspects (self security via projection, which is common to man, overall-being aware is key) of their psychology interfere with such growth.
This can be winnowed or whittled down into a few sentences, even one..which would be that:
"Ethan And Arny try to tell me something, but in reality they don't know shit."
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**I have been exploring the idea that Jesuit Teaching models were purposely implanted into the origins and ideals of scientific methodology (as it poured out of the ideas and origins of and from the more advanced alchemical and free form origins-origins that were explored and created by the Best in Man) as they were found to be so effective in control of mass groups people of average capacity. This, done intentionally by people of slightly greater capacity and nefarious intent. As this possible avenue of structured exploration emerged, the idea that if it was not rooted in science that was 'known', that it was not 'real'.
This point effectively erased a minimum 12,000 years of cutting edge human observation and record, surrendered it..to a model that was just emerging..and in reality, at that time..possessed nothing..and still professes to know less than 1% of all there is to know!! Yet 'science is all'??? How fucking absurd. How baseless. How insane.
This means it is no small damage to the advancement of mankind, this modern science methodology and system. Like organized religion, it can be seen either as bringing much to mankind --but it can also be seen quite correctly as having brought considerable harm.
Be it known that hypnotism and self hypnotism can be used to seriously elevate the capacity of man via the erasure of the barrier between the conscious and the unconscious mind. It is the joining of the two together, into a synthesis of sorts..that pressures the conscious mind so. It is what the conscious mind finds in there that makes for such a wrenching experience. As one might say, when deep in such revelations, 'this changes everything'. However, you were designed to not go looking in there. We touch on this in the more difficult experiences in our lives. Merely 'touch on it'. Enacting it as a permanent state of mind is key to opening that door. Cryptic? Yes. True? Yes. However, one is in for the biggest ride in their life if they go digging in there. This sort of exploration is the fundamental point that the linear thinker does not posses and makes them such a danger to the rest of us. This point, this blind spot in people -is manipulated, as a form of control. It is specifically used as a weapon against those who think clearly.
Wow, still nobody is willing to man up and state on the record which of my clips is Before and After? Even Mikey comes back to say yet again how totally obvious the difference is, yet he's not willing to commit either? LOL!
Ethan, are those the ones Arny said were bit identical?
Or, was he referencing a different set of files?
Well then, there's no point in doing a full blown test! Along with JA, you're also confirming that demagnetizing a vinyl record has a noticeable effect on the sound!
That's all I wanted to know! Thanks! Now where's my chequebook?
Wow, still you're still begging for suckers to fall for your scam test file trick, so you can pretend your hearing is superior to everyone's, and at the same time try to bolster your baseless claim that the deMag doesn't do anything. Yet you're caught lying once again here Ethan, because I responded to this fraudulent ruse of yours yesterday. Where I stated that I was willing to listen to the files and state on the record which of your doctored clips is before and after. Once you are willing to stop behaving like a coward for a change and "manning up" as you call it, by doing the same for Fresh Clip's legitimate test files. The test you have proven to be too cowardly to take (or even talk about!), because you haven't figured out a way to cheat at it yet. And in displaying your flagrant cowardice and hypocrisy to everyone like this, ignoring real listening challenges the group has made to you while foisting fake listening challenges to the group manipulated to fall in your favor, you think you have a right to use the term "man up" on us? It is to laugh. I'm sorry for you that you are failing to find enough people as dumb as you to fall for your little test file con game. Moreover, it appears you have some sort of cycloptic disease, where you do not realize how foolish you look, because you can only see your side of things.
I do find it hilarious that you're still begging for suckers to participate in your "short snippet" con game, while ignoring my complete willingness to fully take on your phony challenge... when I'm the one you created this test file scam for! And now for a graphic image of what I mean, to clarify things for you:
Good luck with that, Ethan.
(p.s. Am I the only person who wonders what your message has to do with KBK, whom you're responding to?)
(p.s.2 Thanks for letting me borrow the Rolly Man Emoticon you downloaded and hosted on your site specifically to add punch to this lame denouncement of the group)!
Yes. No. Yes and no. Depends on whom you ask and at what time of the day, and who posted what before you asked them. Arny said Ethan's 10-second test file snippets were quote "bit identical", after measuring them. Then later, after the two had plenty of time to get their act together in email, Ethan comes back and says on the board that Arny must have been talking about FC's files. Then right on cue, Arny comes back and says he was referring to FC's files. Except FC's files are not bit identical. But that enabled Ethan to create an excuse that to try to wriggle out of his challenge to test them. So nothing has changed with Ethan I'm afraid, since his chickening out of my challenge to test him in person last summer. How does that Paul Simon tune go? "Still deaf after all these years..."
So, Ethan posted those files claiming they were different, and asked you to listen for the differences, but, in fact, they were all the same file?
So, that's how objectivists roll these days?
So then the question would be whether the world is as someone's linear logic tells him it is, or whether the world is as it is experienced.
It seems clear to me that the world is as it we truely and reliably experience it, the flawed logic of linear thinkers notwithstanding.
For example, the experiements of the proponents of the Furutech Demag have all been very simplistic and linear.
One of my first suggestions what that there be two parallel paths of experimentation, one experimental path where the Furutech was energized between listening tests, and another where al the same steps were followed except that the Furutech was not energized.
Again this would be a criticism of the pro-Furutech group. The facts of the issue should be determined by well-thought-out experiences and experiments, while to them they are admant supporters of this theory they have that the sound of essentially nonmagnetic LPs must be changed by demagnetization. The contrary view awaits the completion of the nonlinear, parallel comparison of the outcome of parallel experiences.
We see this distress in many posts by those who are now bound to their as yet unwarranted commitment to their Fururtech theories. Name-calling, insults, importing arguments from the past and other forums, a call for the termination of posting on the topic, these are all symptomatic of people who fear the possibility that a nonlinar approach to the question will not honor their prior commitments to incomplete and poorly-formed experiences.
No, the files are definitely different! Try to null them and you'll see.
If you bothered to actually listen to the files you'd know that. Or maybe not. I guess it depends on how good your hearing acuity is.
--Ethan
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