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April 7, 2015 - 3:21pm
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Use Rear Wall To Your Advantage for Bass!!
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C'mon guys, anyone who has gotten significant sonic improvements, please reply! Let us know your make of speaker, and roughly what improvements you achieved and how they were achieved so maybe someone else with the same or similar speakers can be enlightened!
To go into more detail on my own setup, the rears of my speakers are very close to the wall; about 14", and they are toed in roughly 10-15 degrees and spaced about 10 feet apart, with my "Sweet Spot" sitting in front of the opposing wall behind me about 12 feet away from the middle of the "triangle" formed by the speakers and my listening position. Easily far less than 40Hz out of speakers only rated to 48Hz. Yes haw! :)
Almost all of us on TuneLand use the rear wall or use a SAM as a rear resonantor. Look at our placement guides. We use all the walls as speaker/room combos.
I didn't read the article BTW (glanced), just seeing "using the room" got me going in a positive way :)
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
Michael:
Thank you for the reply! Could you briefly describe the speakers you used and your placement and/or techniques utilized? If you have multiple systems, perhaps describe the one that had the greatest impact due to mere speaker placement and using room acoustics.
I have 2 applications where the rear wall comes in play and in one case it is helpful and the other is a hindrance.
In my home theatre, I have sealed Sunfire HRS SAT4s on the matching stands. These little bookshelf speakers at 5" x 8" have no port and Sunfire specifically recommends getting them close to the wall to enhance bass response and to get as far below 100hz as possible. In this case 2" to 3" in change in distance from the wall can have a noticeable impact on performance.
In my better 2 channels system, I have Revel Performa3 M105s on top of bookshelves. They are toed in and tilted down to aim at my primary listening location. Because the back of the speaker is only a few inches from the wall out of necessity, I have inserted port bungs. Without the bungs, there is a reverb/echo that is unbearable.
In the end, unless I move I am never going to have an optimal room where I can take advantage of system manipulation to enhance sound. Either that or my wife's brain will need to be transposed.
Thank you for your reply!
If you could give a *rough* figure in Hz, how far down do you think the room acoustics allow your HRS SAT4's go?
I find it re-assuring to hear of other people's agreement the room itself and placement of speakers can have a significant impact on Bass, and shatter the manufacturer's claims in a positive way!
I tried using bungs when I had Bowers & Wilkins CM5's, but I found it lacking in Bass, though tighter. I guess I prefer a lower, "boomier" bass sound.... As for your Revel's...are you for some reason limited to "inches" form the rear wall? OR is that the optimal position?
I was messing around with perceived soundstage depth and found if I moved my speakers a few FEET forward into the room, I did gain somewhat in soundstage but at in my opinion a greater loss of elusive true deep end Bass with my epic 2's that I do thankfully get when placed about 1' from wall and myself exactly 1' from opposite wall.
I actually have two listening positions; one of them is in a nearly equlateral triangle of 7' with the speakers; and the other is my "Deep Bass" position where I move my listening position 3 feet back to again 1' away from far wall to speakers.
Thanks for everyone's replies thus far.... keep 'em coming!
Ron
So true -OP.
The rear wall can really get the Bass response right.
All:
I really also want to stress this Bass phenomena to those purchasing new speakers and reading the manufacturer's specs on Hz..... It would be a horrible shame to have people "scared away" from let's say a good pair of bookshelves that are rated at 50Hz vs. a second-best pair rated at 48Hz...or 45..you get the idea...
I just want people to have an OPEN MIND also BEFORE PURCHASING speakers (I think bookshelves are largely the target here) when reading manufacturer's specs on Hz.
Cheers!
Ron
Here is the review and measurements from Sound and Vision.
http://www.soundandvision.com/content/sunfire-hrs-speaker-system-0
These measurements are in a typical location. This is underperforming the manufacturers spec because it is away from the wall. The speakers are designed for wall mounting or super close to the wall.
The Revels are literally on top of bookshelves. They are not stand mounted. But sitting on 6.5' tall bookshelves. They are not deep and must be near the wall simply because of the design of the room. The bungs reduce performance and as a result I have to crossover on my subwoofer set higher than I normally would.
As you noted, you gained low frequency extension at the expense of stage depth. You probably also lost some other frequencies and smeared still others. That's not to say that you should adhere to any set rule about speaker placement, that's far too dependant on numerous things that are individually important to each person, but getting sub 40hz from a monitor speaker always shocks people into asking where your subwoofer is.
bierfelt:
I had a similar Infinity system to your HT setup; though your sub is superior at 1,000 watts! I agree, those speakers are higher range and the manufacturer specs them to be close to the wall.
The Revels; however, should be open to more placement... I took the time to read an in-depth review as well as understand their construction. They are the classic 2-way 5.5 and 1" tweeter with ports. I would think you could move those around in a myriad locations and get wildly differing responses; Perhaps your room presents an unusual challenge? I also understand the necessity of leaving the bungs in to avoid worse sonic issues without them; though to me those speakers are screaming to be placed on dedicated stands 1 foot away to start. Just my opinion and maybe again some issues with the room are preventing this experimentation and placement?
Catch22:
You hit the nail on the head with respect to tradeoffs. Hence I actually use two seating positions to "get around it" for now until I come up with a better plan:
1st position, for critical listening, is the 7' triangle, in short, with the backs of the speakers 1' from the wall. I get very good separation and a fair sound stage with good bass.
I then move back three feet, now placing my ears 1 foot in front of the opposing wall behind me.... and get a huge BOOM in the Bass...below 40 Hz easily. With no subwoofer. Just like you indicated...but my already reduced soundstage does collapse further, hence I just listen to Rap and House/Dance and Pop in this position, and the heavier stuff like Jazz, Opera, Blues, and Classical or some Rock in the "critical" listening position.
So.... I leave this post with a question: Given my setup, anything I can do to increase my soundstage when in my critical listening position; and/or eliminate the necessity of two positions? I am immediately thinking pull speakers further out from wall, past 1 foot, and re-introduce my subwoofer. That kind of feels like "giving up" though. But I have no issues doing that at the gain of a deeper soundstage. But wouldn't the sub collapse it further? That's where I get confused and will just have to try it out this weekend.
My other part of the question is rather than a sub, maybe a piece of my chain is inherently "weak"; causing the shallow and smaller soundstage? Here is a quick rundown:
Epos Epic 2 Speakers On Epic ST15 Stands, AudioQuest Rocket 33 8' cable with banana plugs on both ends; cables bi-wired at speakers with separate "bass" and "treble" bananas per AudioQuest's construction....PS Audio NuWave DAC, connected with AudioQuest Kind Cobra XLR 1 meter interconnect, and Creek Evolution 50A Integrated. I'm leaving out the analog equipment for simplicity sake; as well as most of my listening has recently shifted to digital with the upgrade from a Musical Fidelity V90 DAC to the PS Audio. My source is primarily a 2014 MacBook Air connected to DAC via usb for critical listening or to Airport Express for portability and general listening; playing FLAC ranging from 44.1 up to 192.
So there it is for all to see and comment and help the new guy! I've read reviews of folks getting massive width and depth to their soundstages. I should think my equipment to be "close enough" spec to be able to achieve more than I have.
Respectfully,
Ron
Hi Ron
"Michael:
Thank you for the reply! Could you briefly describe the speakers you used and your placement and/or techniques utilized? If you have multiple systems, perhaps describe the one that had the greatest impact due to mere speaker placement and using room acoustics."
Here is our product page http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/f7-mga-roomtune-products
When you look down through you'll see placement pics, especially when you look at some of the acoustical products I get into the hows and whys. Also if you look at some of the listeners threads you'll see their layouts and their listening journey. Or you can look at the basic setup pages.
That would be the brief answer, to what is a very big question. Every room on the planet is unique so we design with this being our focus. Not so much, trying to make a speaker fit, but building a design that includes the room as the biggest component.
Presently in the Vegas location (my main dig) there are 3 rooms. Two of them where I sit against the back wall, speakers spread as far as they can go, and in the extreme nearfield position. All my rooms have soundstage controlling devices and treatments so it's not like throwing speakers in the room and trying to figure out their best placement. If the room is controlled you can put the placement according to your style of listening. The third room is designed so I can play with the room variables far, mid, near and extreme near fields Plus corner loads. In about two weeks the outside room will be setup. It's a covered space semi-enclosed. This is where we do our open field listening tests.
We have several properties where we do different tests depending on the areas in audio we are working on at the time or specific projects. If I'm doing studio work for example we will rent then convert the space into a studio so we have a point of reference.
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
Properly placed, in a showroom, I asked the dealer what subwoofer was attached to them. You are correct, that placement can enhance bass performance. I can not take advantage of that. I bought the Revels because of outstanding off axis performance due to awful placement issues. I can't fix my placement issues. The room is not a listening room but a living room / office.
My speaker placement for home theatre is almost ideal. In my 7.1 system, my rear speakers are about 3-4 feet further back than ideal which is an easy compensation for Audyssey. Otherwise my speaker placement is exactly where THX recommends. What I have noticed is that the in room impedance is radically lower than 88dB and my multi-channel Marantz power amp is not entirely up to the task. I am seriously consider getting a Sunfire TGA-7201 which will drive these little bookshelf speakers properly and I will get even better performance.
Your point though about placement being critical is quite appropriate. Also, I can't say enough good things about those Sunfire subs. For the money, I am not sure you can beat the HRS line. I have the HRS 12 in my home theatre. The level of detail you get matched with the output power for $850 to $1050 is just silly.