sendcakeplease
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Upgrading - whats a good next step?
audiophile2000
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Keegan,

I was actually in the same boat a few years ago. I had a Marantz receiver (and still do) and RF-7s as well the HT configuration. Sounded great for movies and was fairly happy with music for a while and then I started looking at upgrading. What I ended up doing is building a separate 2 channel system out (DAC to integrated amp) for music and then using the integrated amp as a standalone amp when I went back to HT for my 5.1 setup. Sounds complicated but it’s really just a pair of RCA’s and a good universal remote and you’re in business to link both up.

For me the upgrade from this was to an integrated amp (including internal phono stage, Internal USB DAC, balanced interconnect for upgradability and of course a better amp). The key for me was a product that had a HT bypass mode which essentially passage on the gain from your AVR turning you integrated stereo amp into just an amp connected to the pre-outs on your receiver. (HT bypass is also included in many pre amplifiers today). The HT bypass is really just an extra set up inputs on the integrated amp or pre amplifier

There are a bunch of these products out now so I think this is a decent upgrade and if you get a good one you can expand off of it. I would probably wait till you get our speakers and see what they sound like and then start seeing what you like, but this is a decent way to combine a true stereo and multi channel setup, essentially getting the best of both worlds.

audiophile2000
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Forgot to add this, I could never get my Klipsch center channel to mix well with my new speakers so shortly after the stereo upgrade i built out the remaining 5.1 system with the same brand and series of speakers. I think part of the issue was the horn loaded tweeter was so vastly different to a dome tweeter that it stood out to me (which i found very noticeable if the audio was panned between speakers) Ended up selling the system as a 5.2 package so it worked out.

Also as a note from the HT side, the center channel is widely considered the most important speaker in the entire system so matching timber across the front sound stage is generally something that you want to do.

I think the above is less important for the rear speakers

bierfeldt
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I agree with audiophile 2000 completely. You will struggle to get that Klipsch Center to blend with non Kilpsch speakers. A center channel in the new line will always blend better.

You don't need a lot of power, but you do need an amp that is stable at 4ohms. Also, what media do you listen? How is it split between vinyl, CD and Digital/Streaming?

Marantz makes decent hardware that sounds pretty good. This lacks the latest, greatest technology but simply going out and getting an integrated may not make as much of a difference as you might think. That is why I asked about your media consumption. A source and/or DAC/phono stage might have a huge impact. Also do you have or want a subwoofer?

sendcakeplease
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Wow, awesome thoughts. So let me see if I understand this correctly, I'm not sure that I do. I would keep my old Marantz and use it for HT. Then I would use the pre-out from the Marantz and go to a dedicated Stereo Amp for the L and R speakers? Then how would they work also with the surround?

Or is it the reverse of that? What exact products did you use for your solutions? Just curious. And what products can you point me towards that would have the "HT bypass", etc?

I totally hear you about the center channel, it is really important and should be matched. Thats probably an upgrade for down the line as well - I would get the Totem Dreamcatcher Center for $500 or so. Because I'm forgoing the rears for now, I'm going to do some testing to see if high quality stereo sound will work for movies for me - as long as the imaging is good, maybe it will? I'll have to see.

On the vinyl side I will definitely be upgrading the cartridge - probably at first to a Ortofon Red for $100. Then, I assume next should be a better Phono amp than the internal one that I'm not using in my Audio Technics LP120 TT. Pro-Ject's Phono Box DS ($350) was recommended to me as a good product that could grow with me if I wanted to upgrade to high quality MC cartridges down the line. Not sure how much better it would be to have the MC micro-adjustments in the DS version than the not having them in the base Phono Box ($150), which has just an MC/MM switch.

Same wonder about the internal phono amp in the Yamaha A-S2000 - an integrated amp with awesome reviews that has caught my eye - it has a internal discrete phono amp with an MC/MM switch. How much do the micro-adjustments on the phono amp for MC cartridges really make?

But yes, nailing how to preserve the Marantz for surround sound and adding a high quality Stereo solution, and having both work together -- that's definitely the best solution. So I'd love to try to understand exactly how that would work. Thanks for the time and effort!

so many things...

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In this room is CD (bluray) and vinyl, and we also have an Apple Airport Express hooked up to one of the RCA inputs on the Marantz (CDD/MD - remember Minidisc?? I had those for a while), so we can stream from our iphones or computers if we want, which we also do. I know a DAC in that line would help for sure (I have a D1 from Audioengine on the way for use in my office and will try it out), but I don't know if Apple AirPlay over wifi is even that good a signal to begin with, so I'm unsure how much it would help.

I have an Infinitiy SW-12 subwoofer, 12", that I got with the Klpschs (all together as a used HT set in 2002) so I have to assume its circa 2002 as well. Its boomy with poor definition, but works for HT ok as it is powerful. For music it seems to suck. I've been thinking of replacing it for a while, an SVS 10" has been on my list, but the Totem 8" Kin Sub also looks intriguing. I like that the Totem is small, as our LR is quite small (plus i assume the Totem will work well with the Totem Dreamcatchers I have on the way), and I want the sub to be tight and geared more towards music than HT. The boomy sub I have now is not something I want to hold onto.

I have an Audioengine A5 + A8 sub setup in my office and it totally rocks.

I'm thinking of selling on craigslist or whatever, the HT set exactly as I bought it in 2002: 5 Klipsch speakers previously mentioned + Infinity 12" Sub. I paid $1200 then, maybe I could get $400 now, ha!

I am very interested in the other side of this conversation too - how to build a great stereo setup while preserving the Marantz i already have for HT. More thoughts on this would be welcome. If anyone has thoughts, please chime in!

audiophile2000
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I ended up moving into a simaudio 340i and later adding an external dac, but there are a number of products that have the feature (I think its getting very common since there are a number of people that are looking to mix home theater and stereo and are looking for more performance than what an AVR can deliver. A few additional products that I know of the top of my head are Peachtree, Music Fidelity, Benchmark DACs, Bryston, parasound, Emotiva, Marantz, etc,). I think the best option is to call a few online stores and they can tell you the current lineup of products that include it.

Basically all the feature does is pass on the gain (or volume level) from the source component (effectively disabling the volume control on the integrated amp or pre amplifier (some DACs also have it included like the benchmark)). Depending on your equipment its basically taking the pre-out from your receiver (the RCA connection where you would could add an amplifier) and connecting it to the HT RCA’s on your stereo product. All this does is disables the volume control (more likely, is it is just setting the volume at a level where it doesn’t attenuate the signal coming in – essentially bypassing the volume control). What this does is lets you control the system volume from your Marantz when you are on this input (which basically turns your stereo setup into a simple amplifier.

Now when you switch to a different input, the volume control and everything will work independent of your receiver since it’s not in the signal path.

It’s a great feature that a lot of manufactures realize is important since a lot of people are mixing stereo and HT today and this is the best way I have seen to have the best from both worlds. (Also if you just go the amp route you can always get a A/B switch for the inputs to the amp – but I’m less familiar with it but know it will also work).

In terms of equipment recommendations there are a number of solid performers out there so would recommend taking a listen. I think one potential challenge could be price. Linked below to a Marantz unit that is just above 1,000 but big question is, is it the most cost effective upgrade. I would listen to your speakers on your AVR and see how it sounds, maybe see if a hi-fi shop will lend you and amp and see if that improves the sound. Basically I think you may want to spend more time deciding if power is what you need for if a better source will improve the sound. The issue you run into is more money doesn’t equal better sound. Also keep in mind the stereo components by their nature are probably cost more just given the smaller economies of scale compared to your AVR market. You may find that your AVR is just fine or you may find that jumping to stereo components is better. Sorry to add more confusion to it but something to keep in mind. For me I was switching to large 4 ohm speakers, which were well outside most AVR’s ability so the move to bigger amps was clear.

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_642PM8005/Marantz-PM8005.html?tp=34948

sendcakeplease
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Another idea - a simple speaker switch box like the Russound-AB-2.2 and a separate dedicated stereo amp / CD player?

audiophile2000
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That would work.

I can't comment on how it would sound as I haven't tried to use it. From a theoretical side your stereo amp will likely outperform your AVR (if not you should stick with your AVR) so it would also be good to use in your HT setup

Given that, I would probably look for a low voltage switch, one that let you select your source before it hit your stereo amplifier. (this is essentially an RCA switch assuming you are running unbalanced connections).

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You have a great set of speakers in the Totems, you have a very good receiver with the Marantz. I don't think replacing your receiver should be your top priority. You also have a very good turntable. I firmly believe that a good integrated amp will sound better, but for a $1000, you can probably make other changes that will have a bigger impact on sound quality.

I would think seriously about a new cartridge which you already plan to get. The 2M Red is nice and probably about right. The Musical Fidelity V-90 Phono Stage is an excellent value and would serve you well through time. It is $229. Then a new CD/DVD player - The Oppo BDP-103 is $459. Oppo makes the gold standard in cd/dvd players with the 105 but the 103 is excellent. It is a huge step up from your Samsung and has a strong internal DAC. That is $790 total.

If it was me, my next upgrade would be a subwoofer. NHT makes an awesome subwoofer an would be near the top of my list. The NHT B-10D is very nice and is smaller than a 13" cube. It delivers at 29hz and is 300w and has a Music & Movies EQ.

If size is the biggest concern, the Sunfire HRS 8 is little (9" cube) but it is pricy at $850. Local dealers will usually haggle a bit on it and I bet you could get it for $650 or $700. It is a very musical sub that can deliver big in home theatre. It is rated to 22hz and is 1000w.

If you sell your Infinity sub for $400, That would put you at or only just above your budget.

My hunch is that all these things will do more to improve the sound quality of your system that just getting a new integrated. Don't get me wrong, a new integrated would be an improvement, but I think all these other changes would do more.

A note on the Yamaha integrated your mentioned. Reviews are subjective. If you like the sound of your Marantz, you will likely HATE the sound of a Yamaha Integrated. They are very bright and on the wrong speaker, can sound downright painful. That Yamaha might sound good powering Wharfedale Jades or some other warm sounding speaker, but I would not say the Totem's are warm. Alternatively, if you found the Marantz "dark and lifeless" then you might love the Yamaha. This is why I say they are subjective. Personally, I despise the Yamaha sound.

If you do decide a new amp is the way to go (or you upgrade at a later date), you could take a step forward easily with a $550 to $1000 integrated. The Rega Brio R is awesome and is widely considered one of the top integrates under $1000 for a reason. I have one and truly love it. The Music Hall 15.3 is $550 and is also amazing and certainly deserves mention in top integrated amps under $1000. NAD, Marantz, Peachtree and Cambridge all make truly great equipment at reasonable prices and depending on your tastes, might be preferable.

Regarding Airplay, I have a Network player, my Marantz Pre/Pro and a Denon receiver that all support Airplay and it is fabulous. I tried it through airport extreme and was a bit disappointed. It isn't the same as listening to devices that are Airplay enabled. However, Apple TV, especially if connected to a DAC via a Toslink connection, can deliver surprisingly good sound quality via Airplay. Especially if your electronic files are lossless. This would be the scenario where I would strongly recommend an external DAC. I would also recommend one if you opt against a higher end CD/DVD player. In that case, I would get a Peachtree DAC iTx at $299. Outstanding unit for the money but unnecessary with an Oppo Blu-ray.

I know this is a completely different approach but I think you would be happier.

sendcakeplease
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wow, awesome thoughts. thanks so much!

yeah, for now, it will be:

1. Totem Dreamcatchers
2. sell the old sub, get a new one (I started a thread just for that question as well)
3. new phono cartridge

My local guy loves the NADs, but those other recommendations are good too. What do you think of their players? Would the DAC in an NAD CD player be as good as the Oppo?

I just got the Audioengine D1 DAC for my office and wow what a difference.

Thanks again!

audiophile2000
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I think your upgrade path makes sense. One thing i would stress is feel to do comparisons between products. I agree bierfeldt that Oppo makes some amazing products. I have a BDP-103D now at home and I can't say enough good things about it. Mine is mostly being used on the HT side of the equation, I have thrown a few CDs on it and was very surprised at how good the DAC was. I've also used it for some blu-ray audio disk and can say it was great. there are many more people here that can comment on it since i mostly use it as a blu-ray player but every solid product.

In terms of comparing DACs. I think this is very hard. I'm actually looking for a DAC right now so I provided a link to the thread below. You will find that they all sound a bit different and depending on your system and taste I'm note sure there is an absolutely better product so to speak.

While some of this goes over my head, there are a few white papers on the way digital filters work in DACs if your interested that shed some light on the fundamental trade off that every DAC suffers from. Also of course there are a ton of ways to design the analog circuitry that will effect sound. At the end of the day its about picking the one that just sounds right to you.

Point is, I would ask your dealer for a demo and listen over a weekend and do this with a few products until you find the one that resonates with you. I'm doing this with a couple of DACs now and after a couple of demo's I am glad I did.

Whitepaper
http://resonessencelabs.com/digital-filters/

other forum
http://www.stereophile.com/content/dac-match-naim-supernaitsupernait-2

bierfeldt
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The beauty of the Oppo is that it will do both CDs and BluRay. One player for a space constrained system. Additionally, I don't think the internal DAC in the NAD or Marantz CD players are quite as good as the Oppo. That being said, audiophile2000 is spot on, you need to listen and see for yourself as my preferences might be radically different than yours.

If you go opt for the NAD, it is an outstanding transport but I would probably look to get an external DAC. There are several less expensive ones that are great. Peachtree, Cambridge and Musical Fidelity all have reasonably priced units. I like the Peachtree Dac iTx, but there are many others that are great.

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