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nickyrugg
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Turntable too quiet

Hi, I have a Technics 1200 with a Grado blue cartridge. Im running into a Pioneer Elite receiver which has a phono input. Even though it has a phono input, the turntable is rather quiet. Any suggestions on how I can get this working better?

Thanks

Buddha
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Re: Turntable too quiet

Welcome, Nickyrugg.

Your grado blue has a good output at 5mV, so I am slightly perplexed about your problem.

If you post the model number of your receiver and I'll check it's input phono sensitivity.

Did the turntable previously have good output level with this cartridge?

Toss out a little more history and we'll see what we can do!

(I may not be back online until tomorrow.)

KBK
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Re: Turntable too quiet

Check for crossed ground wires or vertical wiring orientation vs horizontal. Either will give low output. This is the cartridge wiring, of course.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Turntable too quiet

Contemporary receivers can have inputs labeled "phono" and not have a pre amp section included. Read your owner's manual for instructions on how to connect a turntable. you might need an outboard phono pre amp.

KBK
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Re: Turntable too quiet


Quote:
Contemporary receivers can have inputs labeled "phono" and not have a pre amp section included. Read your owner's manual for instructions on how to connect a turntable. you might need an outboard phono pre amp.

Now that's stooping pretty low. It's like supplying a sign that says 'garage', but not actually providing the garage. Just the sign.

Buddha
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Re: Turntable too quiet


Quote:
Contemporary receivers can have inputs labeled "phono" and not have a pre amp section included. Read your owner's manual for instructions on how to connect a turntable. you might need an outboard phono pre amp.

I did not know that!

What a schitter!

I bet that's the problem right there.

Thanks for edumacating me, Jan!

dbowker
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Re: Turntable too quiet

I've seen that too- pretty stupid since most folks would rightly assmue that they can just hook up their 'table as is. Should at least say "Phono Pre-Amp hookup" or something to let the owner know what's up.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Turntable too quiet

It usually does, if you read the owner's manual.

dbowker
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Re: Turntable too quiet

Hey- the forum is all, if not almost all MEN-----what man reads the owners manual!?????? There is too much pride involved for a man to have to read instructions! They need to muddle through it until 4AM and in desperation post a question (with very little information) in the Entry Level page, heheh.

nickyrugg
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Re: Turntable too quiet

Thanks guys. The receiver is a Pioneer Elite VSX-92TXH. It appears to have a phono preamp. It has the ground connection as well. The manual specifically states to not plug the turntable into that input if it already has a built in preamp.

I believe I have it wired correctly, the diagram displyed the needle up while wiring.

I've never used this turntable or cartridge before, both are new. I had some vinyl laying around and thought I would pick up a turntable to start listining to them again.

Oh and more specifically the turntalbe is a Technics SL-1210Mk5

Is this even a decent turntable/cartridge? I wish I discovered this fourm before making the purchase.

BillB
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Re: Turntable too quiet

If it's all wired up properly, and you are getting good sound from the speakers, but you just have to turn the volume higher for phono compared to cd and other sources, then that is ok and common. I have to turn my volume higher for phono too, and that's been the case across various preamps and turntable/cartridges. I listen to about the 9:00 or 10:00 position (of the volume control) for most sources; i need to use about 12:00 on phono input - but that's fine.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Turntable too quiet

OK. When you say the turntable is "quiet" do you simply mean in comparison to other inputs such as CD?

dbowker
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Re: Turntable too quiet

Yeah, that was going to be my question too. My amp has a volume input from 0-125 and on average CDs play at around 15-45, but records usually play at around 35-70! So if I had always just played CDs maybe I'd assume that the records were playing too "low" as well. On the other hand, if your amp starts losing steam or distorting when you crank it up to play the LPs at a reasonable level, then you DO have a problem. But my guess is that you just have to get your head around turning that volume dial up a bit more than usual.

rvance
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Re: Turntable too quiet

Nickyrugg, I think it's the Grado. I've been using the damned things since an F3E in '75. Then an F3E+ in the 80's(both $50 wonders), then a Black in the '90's (basically the same cheap thing) and now a Silver (Whoa- an "upgrade!"). Had to crank up the gas on all of them.

Elk
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Re: Turntable too quiet


Quote:
OK. When you say the turntable is "quiet" do you simply mean in comparison to other inputs such as CD?


Also, is the quality of the sound as full and rich as your other sources, or does it sound thin and tinny?

nickyrugg
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Re: Turntable too quiet

You folks are correct. It is not so quiet that it cannot be heard. It is just more quiet then other sources so it needs to be turned up more. I didn't know this was normal.

Also when listining to rock music, it sounds almost too warm to the point of being muffled. The bass is muddy and not tight. Classical music sounds great. Perhaps my main issue is that the cartridge is not well suited for rock music.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Turntable too quiet

Perhaps it's the cartridge but more likely it's the placement and set up of the table. How do you have this system positioned and what is the turntable sitting on? Do we know what type of table this is? A Technics?

nickyrugg
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Re: Turntable too quiet

Yes it is a Technics SL-1210Mk5 with a Grado Blue. The turntable is sitting on top of a glass cabinet in the front right corner near the subwoofer and right speaker.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Turntable too quiet

The only thing I see listed for this table as far as isolation goes is a "bass absorbing rubber bottom". I don't know what that means. I suspect it's not absorbing very much in your situation.

Turntables without isolation systems built in need some sort of external isolation system to prevent the transmission of both mechanical and airborne feedback from entering the playback system and creating a loop from speaker to table and back again and again and again. I can't guarantee you will get the bass you want with an isolation device but I would certainly try since the set up for your table is not the best and changing cartridges will still leave the table without an isolation system. Do you have any way to change the set up on your table by moving it off the glass cabinet, out of the corner and away from the subwoofer?

rvance
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Re: Turntable too quiet

nickyrugg, Before you rearrange your room, before you embark on a vision quest to seek the sonic truths of life, and with great deference to the superior minds that contribute so much more than I have to offer in these posts, please be aware of one thing: I'TS THE GRADO! THEY ARE POWER ROBBING LITTLE BANDITS.

Your experience with inconsistent sound quality is very familiar. I have a vintage Philips 212 electronic with a Grado Silver and some of my oldest worn rock records (Robin Trower, Capt. Beefheart, Santana, etc.) sound fantastic, while some newer 180 gram pressings suck. And vice-versa. I have a double album by White Stripes and only one side of the four sounds good. It's a combination of record quality and an unforgiving, mid-fi, mediocre set up. It's my cross to bear, but it does fine often enough. I have been upgrading my digital and the analog will have to wait until later.

Which does not mean you shouldn't heed the excellent advice available in these forums for improving your set up. Good luck.

Buddha
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Re: Turntable too quiet


Quote:
nickyrugg, Before you rearrange your room, before you embark on a vision quest to seek the sonic truths of life, and with great deference to the superior minds that contribute so much more than I have to offer in these posts, please be aware of one thing: I'TS THE GRADO! THEY ARE POWER ROBBING LITTLE BANDITS.

Your experience with inconsistent sound quality is very familiar. I have a vintage Philips 212 electronic with a Grado Silver and some of my oldest worn rock records (Robin Trower, Capt. Beefheart, Santana, etc.) sound fantastic, while some newer 180 gram pressings suck. And vice-versa. I have a double album by White Stripes and only one side of the four sounds good. It's a combination of record quality and an unforgiving, mid-fi, mediocre set up. It's my cross to bear, but it does fine often enough. I have been upgrading my digital and the analog will have to wait until later.

Which does not mean you shouldn't heed the excellent advice available in these forums for improving your set up. Good luck.

I don't think I've ever heard the Blue cartridge, but it has a listed output of 5mV. Is that perhaps too optimistic?

I haven't run into all that much power robbing with Grados.

Nickyrugg, how much extra 'volume' do you have to go to get 'equivalent' volume vs. CD or FM?

Great thread.

rvance
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Re: Turntable too quiet


Quote:
I haven't run into all that much power robbing with Grados.

That's because you've had better equipment tnan mine!

Jan Vigne
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Re: Turntable too quiet

I'm sorry but could you explain how a cartridge can be a "power robbing little bandit"?

Elk
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Re: Turntable too quiet


Quote:
I'm sorry but could you explain how a cartridge can be a "power robbing little bandit"?


You recognize them by their little black ski-masks.

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