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Sax Maniac
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Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?

After hearing above mentioned amp, it is looking inevitable that I will just have to get one. However, will it drive my 805s with ease or will it be a struggle? My speaker brochure says sensitivity is 88db and impedance is 8ohms, if that helps. Im not a very technical guy so I'd appreciate any advice. Thanks

Yiangos
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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?

Hi there

Good choice of an amplifier,unfortunately,underpowered for your 805.As far as i know,that perticular range of B&Ws (805-800) need a lot of power to get them moving.

gkc
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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?

Yo,

Yiangos is probably right, but you never know...I've heard some very unlikely combinations that work much better than predicted. Also, it depends on how much listening room space you have to fill. Listen before you buy. Good luck, Clifton.

mikeymad
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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?

I agree, that if you could demo it before purchase it would be the best, or if there is a 30 day return from the seller.

I have the 802s and I am only pushing them with about 60W/Ch from my Exposure XVIII. But I have never had an issue of running out of power. Not all watts are made equal. I didn't see any numbers about how much dynamic headroom the a21se has (i.e. how much it can go over its watt rating without clipping).

But just using the simple rule that you get around 3db for every doubling of watts.

88db - 1w
91db - 2w
94db - 4w
97db - 8w
100db-16w
103db-32w

that might be loud enough for you....

You said that you heard the amp. With which speakers?

gkc
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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?

Hi, Mikeymad -- just a quick follow. I auditioned the 805's with my Audio Innovations tube monoblocks, which are rated at 50 watts per side. It was plenty! I believe the 805's are the easiest in that series to drive. Also, I thought they sounded terrific, especially with jazz and classical. Since they are small monitors, I assume the poster won't be using them in a palatial space, so the Sugdens might do the job just fine. Clifton

Yiangos
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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?

Clifton,50 tube watts are the equal of almost 80+ transitor watts.Don't forget that but yes,i agree with you,the guy should have a listen and decide himself !

Sax Maniac
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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?

Hi again, thanks for all the insights guys.

Mikeymad, I heard the amp with Spendor floorstanders (S5?), and they were a sweet combination for sure.

Mikey I found your decibel/watt chart quite interesting but could not fathom it. Can you dumb it down for me a bit, I'd appreciate it.

Looks like try before buy is the way to go but I take heart that it may just work as a combination.

If I can get this to work Im out of the audio game for good.

Or maybe not.

gkc
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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?

Get out? For good? Bwaahaahahaha. Zer eees no escape. Velcome to ze sveet shpot. May I show you zomezing, ummm, a bit better, for a pairzon off your obfeeoz zofeestee-KA-tion? Choo can't AFFORD anozzer sirty-grand?? Nonsense!! Ve haff ze installment plan. Allow me to explain...

mikeymad
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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?


Quote:

Mikeymad, I heard the amp with Spendor floorstanders (S5?), and they were a sweet combination for sure.

Mikey I found your decibel/watt chart quite interesting but could not fathom it. Can you dumb it down for me a bit, I'd appreciate it.

First off, if you liked it with the Spendor S5e, then you should be fine. The S5e speakers are even less efficient than the 805's. They are rated at only 87dB 1w/1m. So with your 805's being 88dB you should be fine with the same amount of power.

Now the chart, this is where I may be very wrong, but something I learned a long time ago. Is that if you double the amount of power (watts) being output from your amp, you can expect about a 3 decibel (dB) increase in the loudness output of your speaker. That is where the little chart comes in. I just started with the 88dB rating and then doubled the watts until I got to the power output of the amp you are looking at. It looks like you should be well over 100 decibles by that point. I think that it pretty loud.

So, if you have a very efficient speaker such as a Klipsch at 103 decibels output at 1 watt measured at 1 meter away (103dB 1w/1m). You could run these with a very low power tube amp (3watts). In the example I used earlier it would take 32w to get to that same level of output with a speaker that starts out with 88dB rating.

If there are any corrections from the group, please put me on the right path.

Sax Maniac
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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?

Ok, I think I got it. Thanks.

I'll let the board know how my adventure goes, in due course.

CECE
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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?

What is the formula used to arrive at the 50 tube watts are almost equal to 80+ solid state watts? Hmmmm, ya gotta tell me that one. 80W is almost useless, like many of these overpriced 5 watt tube debacles. Somehow physics is not in play with these magic overpriced devices. 80W for a nice compressed, DULL, undercontrolled, boring, limited dynamics, did I say BORING, uneventful, lifeless compressed, sound. Without watts there when needed, any speaker used will be compressed lifeless and hardly anything near lifelike. But please explain how 50=80 in this audio world of bizzaro. Is a 22g audiophile grade cable also equivilent to a real world 12 ga. Since there must be an audiophile conversion formula I ain't getting.

Yiangos
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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?

Dup.my English is not good.No,50 tubes watts does not equal 80 + transistor watts.It has to do with headroom and clipping.I am not sure how to put it English.When a transistor amp goes into clippingmit does just that,when a tube amp reaches full power,simply,it wont go louder anymore,instead of begin clipping.Listen,i am sure someone else with better knowledge might be able to explain this to you.Now,personally,i don't have a tube amp but i've heard plenty.If you think watts are everything,well,you're wrong.
And even if you're right,for the sake of argument,have a listen to VTL Wotal against almosy any transistor amp.

mikeymad
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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?


Quote:
Ok, I think I got it. Thanks.

I'll let the board know how my adventure goes, in due course.

Cool, sounds like it could be a great little combo. Good luck, and give us a review.

gkc
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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?

Hi, Yiangos --

YOUR English is not good? Compared to DUP's, your prose glitters as a paragon for readability and good sense. You ain't gonna find his syntax in Strunk & White. Actually, anyone who has listened to both tubes and solid state knows you are correct, although there will always be isolated exceptions. DUP, dammit, not everyone needs 4 kilowatts to move some air in his listening room. And we're not talkin' 3 to 5 watts of SET here (although many listeners get plenty of sound from these designs) -- we're talkin' in the 25 to 50 range, and that is more than 5 (or did your writing teacher also teach arithmetic). Besides, it's the interaction between speaker and amplifier that counts, and with some speakers, 30 watts CAN sound like 300. Yes, really. I've heard it with my own ears. Sometimes it's the QUALITY of the sound, not the number of inches the furniture moves when assaulted by the first shock wave. Write on, Yiangos. Cheers, Clifton

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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?

Hahahahaha Thanks Clifton ! You know,i used to have the top-of-the-line TDL model.The Reference standard.One day,i decided to run a little test.I got my old NAD 3020B,hooked it up with the big monsters and advanced the volume as far as i could stand the spl.To my surprise,i could only make the "30 watt" light flicker.The "35 watt" light was still off and honestly,i could not stay in the room if the 35 led began flickering and we're talking about a speaker the manufacturer says minimum amp requirments 50 watt. I allways tell to friends who ask my opinio that it is not a matter of quantity but quality !

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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?


Quote:
... I allways tell to friends who ask my opinio that it is not a matter of quantity but quality !

Amen..!!

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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?

Well I run a sugden a21a (25wpc) with some N805 (older version) and I'm very happy.

The sugden a21 is a special amp. It heats your room, sounds like a

Yiangos
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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?

Hello and welcome to the forum.Everything you said reminded of my previous power amp.A Musical Fidelity A-370.Only difference,it could heat up a bigger room lol

CECE
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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?

I'll put my 4200 MOSFETS WATTS against ANYTHING....Power/current is needed to move air. 50W ain't moving nutin honey, I don't car how efficeint the speakers are. 50W of compressed dull, lifeless, bad sound, tube or SS. you take teh same speaker listen with a paltry 100W amp, then move up to a 500W, then tow over a 1000, not louder, but cleaner, more controlled, more open, less fatigued, less strained. Not just loud, BETTER...watts, there is no substitute. It really is simple. Soon to go to 4800 when I swap the smaller 900W amps to some 1200W (with a 1400 or so abilty) Speaking of "headroom" where do you think it comes from, not some clipped useless tube 50 watter, from having it there in gobs of RMS watts....so the really Deep bass, is just that, while teh highs sparkle and shiller...Watts, it does a speaker good. 50W is a table radio. MOSFETS baby....I do use some hybrid stuff pre amp and phase inverters, for the front end...MOSFETS lotsa current, lotsa SPEED , for realism and IMPACT and SLAM!!!! Makin it REAL.

Yiangos
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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?

Are you implying i should forget that 5 channel system with Magneplanar MG-20.1 powered by 2a3 2 watt tubes ?!?!?!?

gkc
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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?

We give up, DUP. I shouldn't speak for the others, but I personally have been pounded into submission by your inexorable logic, finesse, subtlety, and unflagging endurance. Not to mention the density of your prose. I need more watts! Sob. But where can I turn? Aha! Audio by Van Alstine. THAT'S where, by God!

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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?


Quote:
I'll put my 4200 MOSFETS WATTS against ANYTHING....Power/current is needed to move air. 50W ain't moving nutin honey, I don't car how efficeint the speakers are. 50W of compressed dull, lifeless, bad sound, tube or SS. you take teh same speaker listen with a paltry 100W amp, then move up to a 500W, then tow over a 1000, not louder, but cleaner, more controlled, more open, less fatigued, less strained. Not just loud, BETTER...watts, there is no substitute. It really is simple. Soon to go to 4800 when I swap the smaller 900W amps to some 1200W (with a 1400 or so abilty) Speaking of "headroom" where do you think it comes from, not some clipped useless tube 50 watter, from having it there in gobs of RMS watts....so the really Deep bass, is just that, while teh highs sparkle and shiller...Watts, it does a speaker good. 50W is a table radio. MOSFETS baby....I do use some hybrid stuff pre amp and phase inverters, for the front end...MOSFETS lotsa current, lotsa SPEED , for realism and IMPACT and SLAM!!!! Makin it REAL.

Kill me now! I've been wrong all my life.

Infact I'll just plug my speakers into that hole in the wall. I here it's got plenty of JAJA OOMPH at 50/60Hz. Lower baby lower. U know us brits have it better 50hz etc etc.

But back to normality, can we talk hifi rather than ICE bling?

Yiangos
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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?

Don't forget the 240volt too.Some speaker illuminate to the beat ! lol

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Dup.where are you ?

Where are you located? I'm seriously thinking of purchasing stocks from your local electricity company !

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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?


Quote:
We give up, DUP. I shouldn't speak for the others, but I personally have been pounded into submission by your inexorable logic, finesse, subtlety, and unflagging endurance. Not to mention the density of your prose. I need more watts! Sob. But where can I turn? Aha! Audio by Van Alstine. THAT'S where, by God!


I guess I'm just a 30-watt tube loser, but DUP sounds to me like some sort of illiterate Anthony Michaelson, without the clarinet.

Yiangos
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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?

I am tempted to say something about the clarinet but Stephen will delete my post rotfl

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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?


Quote:
I am tempted to say something about the clarinet but Stephen will delete my post rotfl

I have nothing against clarinets.

gkc
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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?

Me neither. Nor DUP. He uses 'em for Q-tips.

gkc
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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?

Yeah. Me too. Sometimes I'm afraid to show my watts in public, they're so small.

gkc
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Re: Dup.where are you ?

Noo Yawk, I believe. Urban legend has it that, after a particularly wild listening session, they found a fragment of DUP's eardrum on the Joisey Shore -- some kids were using it for a trampoline. A piece of his tympani broke a hack's windshield as he emerged from the Holland Tunnel.

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Re: Dup.where are you ?

If anyone's interested I've just bought a Rel Strata III to go with my sugden a21a and N805 speakers.

I'll report back with review and info in due course. That is if I'm able to drag myself away from music this weekend.

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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?


Quote:
Yeah. Me too. Sometimes I'm afraid to show my watts in public, they're so small.


Don't you get any "Make your watts BIGGER!" emails? I hear it's how it all got started for DUP. Presumably, men with a "size" problem either have it fixed at the source (metaphorically speaking) *or* find balance in their life by buying a monster SUV or a few hundred watts worth of amplification. Note that in this second case, the wife doesn't get to benefit, all she gets is more bulky and noisy stuff in her home.

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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?

Hence,the clarinet ! rotfl

gkc
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Re: Dup.where are you ?

I'm interested, Lemonizer. REL makes some tight, deep bass. Will this addition allow/cause you to make changes in the 805's room position? Also, I would be interested in which set-up option you chose for adding the sub, and why. How much adjusting do you have to do (if any) to accomodate different musical selections? Cheers, Clifton

Yiangos
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Clifton,i had the same problem

What loudspeakers are you using and why do you want to add a sub to your system?

gkc
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Re: Clifton,i had the same problem

I am using the Triangle Volante with 2 cheap subs from Velodyne. They sound fine, because I don't demand much from them -- just some low-volume fill in of the very bottom octave. I don't want them to "double-up" on any of the low frequencies that the Triangles can handle on their own. This has worked well because I am only aware of the sub on material below 40 Hz, and even so, the transition is so seamless that the sub's lights provide the only clue that it has kicked in.

gkc
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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?

Yes, I receive these offers all the time. I wonder how they became aware of my problem. I hope none of my ex-girlfriends blabbed. The ads I get are all in the "herbal" camp. I must admit to some curiosity as to how this works (dipping or drinking?). Still, this is idle curiosity and I wouldn't mind if I never found out. I tried injecting the caps on my power amp with human growth hormone, but that didn't work either. I guess I'll just have to continue to work on agility and endurance drills and hope for mere adequacy. Nature limits us all. Sigh.

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Re: Clifton,i had the same problem

Hey Clifton,back and sober i see lol I heard rumors you guys had one heck-of-a-time down there at the show.
Anyway,to the point of this posting.First-of-all since you allready have subs and hapy with them,that means they're "working in your system.Now,regarding REL.A very good friend of mine,is the exclusive distributor of REL over here.The best model i've heard,is the "Strada" and to be honest,i wasn't very impressed by it.I don't know if the setup was wrong,probably not,as i was hearing it in his shop in a dedicated studio,but it was bottoming out on moderately loud passages.Even though i could get 40% or maybe even 50% off the retail price and i was going for the "Studio" model,i chose to purchase a pair of Velodyne HGS-18.In the end,i found out i could not accomodate both in my hi-fi (too large) so i use one for hi-fi and one for home theater.They play quite well and integrate well too.
A few months ago,i added a velodyne sms-1 (digital drive Subwoofer Management System)which,imho,is a must for any serious sub user.The improvement was phenomenal due to its flexibility.A few weeks ago,i decided to re-arrange my system.Now both subs are used mainly for movies as there is no need for them anymore in music listening.What i am trying to say is,can you play around with speaker location?
Can you be sure that the REL will integrate well with your Triangles? Do not automatically assume that because your existing subs integrate well,the REL will too and don't forget that you allready use a pair of subs,unless you are planning to purchase 2 REL.A pair (sub)allways smooths out low frequency irregularities.A single sub won't be so forgiving.Also,from what i understand,you are driving the Triangles full range.You are aware (not 100% sure though) you can only use the REL full range.If you are using a crossover with your velos,forget about it with the rel.You can more-or-less connect them only through the speaker terminals.No line level connection(again not 100% sure.Newer model may have this facility).

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Re: Clifton,i had the same problem

I'm with Yiangos regarding a " subwoofer EQ system" of some sort. Not just a one or two band that many subs have built in, but one that has enough bands and the flexibility to get the job done. There are many available, but the Velodyne, though pricey, is probably the most user friendly of all.

Clifton, if your trying to improve your subs performance, I suspect this just might do the trick, more so than new subs. With the subs flat from say 20 - 80 Hz, ( I say up to 80 because the 40 hz setting is not a brick wall, there is bleed over) you can now run them a little harder with better results and I find I don't have to fiddle with the volume as much for different recordings.

RG

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Re: Clifton,i had the same problem

Yo, RG -- I thought about an equalizer, but so far I'm very happy with how the cheap Velodynes are filling in only the very bottom of the range. You're not the only one who has mentioned the Velodyne EQ and spoken well of it. I may have to give it a spin, just to see if I'm missing anything. Even if it's pricey, it's probably cheaper in the long run than fussing around with different subs -- they can get pricey, too. Thanks for the info. Clifton

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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible? *DELE

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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible? *DELE

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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?

Jokes aside,in a way,Dup has a point here.Consider it like the European VS US cars.They may have the same horsepower but your cars have larger engines,therefore,more torque.
I understand this does not apply for all loudspeakers,but certain large floorstanders or speakers with low sensitivity and/or difficult load can benefit from power.
Just think of the B&W 801D.We all know this particular speaker,as well as the model 800 need tons of watt power !

gkc
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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?

Good point, Yiangos. But remember, this is also one of the big reasons the American auto giants are going bankrupt, and there is an ongoing energy crisis that may not go away during our lifetimes. Given a real choice, all other things roughly equal, I'll take high-sensitivity, easy-load speakers and high quality, low-powered amps any time. It just seems like these combinations result in more dramatic, transparent, and distortion-free sound. I don't think I'm alone in this preference, although we may form a minority. I have just had too much bad luck with systems that combine inefficient (and difficult-to-drive) speakers and the power stations that it takes to drive them properly. Come to think of it, my most reliable autos have been underpowered, low-torque road-huggers, too.

Yiangos
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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?

Actually Clifton,i agree with you.Just wanted to point out that Dup isn't actually all wrong.Remember,someone said a good loudspeaker must be able to perform its best at low volume as-well-as high and not just in head-banging volumes.
I doubt any low efficiency loudspeak can manage this.

CECE
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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?

Whispers are very efficeint, they also work well loud and soft. They are also 4 Ohm nominal, current needed. Never had a system sound worse with MORE WATTS. Always opens up more, smoother highs, controlled bass. I'm not talking bout' using a $230 no nmae amp at 1000W channel either. I'm talkin' bout' quality amps, that are well designed.....you know where this is going...1200 AVA watts is as good as it gets....controlling 4 15" woofers needs amps that can do it, along with the 4 mids etc. I heard Whispers on "underpowered" 250W pc amps, while it sounds good, it didn't grab me, or give me the ALIVE slam...WATTS MATTER.

gkc
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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?

Hi, Yiangos -- Of course DUP isn't all wrong. I just like throwin' him the occasional piece of raw meat. As you (and DUP) suggest, the amp has to fit the speaker. It's just that I have been down that road and didn't enjoy the view as much as I do now, with easy-to-drive speakers. How's the weather over there? I have a buddy who is in Greece, and he says he may never come back. Cheers.

Yiangos
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Re: Sugden A21SE Integrated & B&W805S. Compatible?

Hi Clifton
Yes,i know....actually,it all comes down to synergy.
The weather,here,in Cyprus? Okay,picture this.Imagine you are in Orlando,only hotter and more humid.The human nature is very strange.Greeks want to move to UK.British want to go to Cyprus.Americans want to go to Greece.Dup wants more powerful amps.Btw Dup,have you ever tried brystons? I have read very good comments just about everywhere !

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