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Bud
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SUBSONIC FILTERS

I was wondering why more phono stages don't have at least a switchable subsonic filter? The vast majority of records seem to have at least some warp, which causes significant woofer movement and wasted power, at least on any speakers with true deep bass response. OK - I've heard that purists feel that it screws up the sound, but is this true? Maybe the manufacturers feel that the inclusion of such a filter will turn off the potential market for their product?

Lamont Sanford
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Re: SUBSONIC FILTERS

Where did you get that information from? A good turntable is designed to counter natural warped vinyl. If you have excessive warp that is causing distortion than the album is basically useless. But as for your question? I don't know. I would imagine it is an economical demand thing. If there is no demand than why up the manufacturing costs?

Jan Vigne
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Re: SUBSONIC FILTERS


Quote:
A good turntable is designed to counter natural warped vinyl.

How does it do that?


Quote:
If you have excessive warp that is causing distortion than the album is basically useless.

There are no flat records. If the disc I want to hear is warped, I still want to hear it. Quite a bit of what I have on vinyl cannot be replaced on another format.

As to the question, I've wondered the same. A subsonic filter will introduce phase shift at audio bandwidth frequencies, but I'm never sure which is worse; the phase shift at low frequencies that might not exist on the particular record or the low frequency driver being displaced well out of its linear range by subsonic energy. Lots of power wasted to boot!

A switch would seem appropriate but it has fallen out of fashion just as a mono switch or a phase reverse switch has disappeared. Too many companies seem to be driven by marketing people more than designers.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: SUBSONIC FILTERS

Jan, don't take this personal. But, well, for crying out loud what is all the hype about tonearms for? And a record that is excessively warped is useless. You can listen to it but I'm just going to stare at it going around and around wondering how did it get melted.


Quote:
Origin Live Enterprise Tonearm $7,700

Feature highlights

# New armtube incorporating bi-metalic technology to reduce resonance and increase rigidity
# Highest grade materials used throughout
# Low friction, completely stable dual pivot bearing design for vertical movement. 2 single points in sapphire cups, widely spaced to mimic gimbal bearing stability but with much lower friction.
# Bearings for horizontal movement using highly specified low friction bearings conventionaly oriented
# Inbuilt VTA height adjustment
# Counterweight designed for low vertical inertial and high transverse inertia (advantageous to hold cartridge steady)
# Highest grade wiring throughout - internal litz wiring (cryogenicaly treated).
# Silver bullet plugs.

Well, so much for $100k turntables that can't compensate for vinyl that isn't perfectly flat.

This brings me back to why is the current turntable industry relying not on high end equipment but things like the standard AT3600 needle and cartridge that seem to get pissed on for no other reason other than they are economical. I have not seen anything along the line of comparison with high end equipment. I've used Grado, a higher end Audio Technica, as well as, the AT3600 and I can't hear a difference, such a difference, that I'm proud to have bought the higher end cartridges and related needle. In fact the Audio Technia AT-PL50 and its various re badged forms from Radio Shack to TEAC is not a bad turntable. It's cheap as shit at about $99 or less but nobody wants to make a comparison because they know what they will find out. That you can spend thousands more so you can get a few decibels from the symbol from your favorite track in your room. Since the AT3600 is more economical I have been using it rather than replace replacing expensive styluses for expensive cartridges with minimal value added increase in performance. The AT3600 cartridge and stylus is a $19.95 setback.

I'm not really into all the hype on high end turntable equipment. I see no sense in spending hundreds and thousands of dollars on turntable equipment that is limited to what was put on the analog vinyl. It's like going quail hunting with a 10 gauge shotgun. Overkill.

The secret to great sound is the quality of the medium and not necessarily the equipment.

But back to the original question. We seem to agree basically on the same thing. Manufacturers are not going to put a button on something that no one really wants. Some will but most won't. I don't care how high end the equipment is because in the end there is a cost accounting principle that plays into the overall design.

CECE
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Re: SUBSONIC FILTERS

When pricey tonearms and expensive spinning platters on a bearing can't defeat warped records, wiping out woofers, there is the need for the $1800. Furu***...LP de warper!!!! $1800 mini oven......hehehehehehehehe. Wonder if it has some of that current Chinese high quality added in? UL listed, contaminet free plastics? $100 to melt plastic that cost $20. ? Oh, sometimes these LP are irreplaceable, that's right? Lay them out on a flat try on a day liek today at 90 in teh sun, warp is gone.....But small warps don't matter it's those really sharp ones, that make teh tone arm jump, if teh arm is junk, or mis adj'd. $100,000 TT should have all the LP accessories, de warper, cleaner, everything to make LP vinyl PERFECT. One of teh reasons the CD was invented.....it has error correction!!! Obsolete vinyl is not covered. $100,000 TT, yupper, that doesn't do it either. Wonder what school teaches business how to sell this stuff to the gullible? Even the pro audio purbications, say, Digital is it!! Control, ease of use, much more options to do stuff, and the price keeps coming down, and giving you more quality and options. Wonder if horse drawn carriage makers held onto making hore whips and stuff as automoblies came moving on in, and they tried to deny reality. Snap crackle pop, on $100,000 TT is still snap crackle pop off a $300 TT. Maybe a little less background rumble. DSD/DACD just glorious music done easier...Maybe SACD/DSD II is coming EMMLABS takes CD up over DSD sampling rates, I gots to hear one soon, how much can they push CD 44.1 rate, and does it get that much better? DSD is it baby, best thing out there so far, till it gets bettered. Anyone think carbs are better than EFI in cars and motorcycles too? EFI is better all around DIGITAL controls, runs better, less waste, less pollution, just like digital audio, it works better.

Jan Vigne
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Re: SUBSONIC FILTERS

LS, don't take this personal, but ...


Quote:
for crying out loud ...

... there is a cost accounting principle that plays into the overall design.

LOL, LS, LOL.

Jan Vigne
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Re: SUBSONIC FILTERS


Quote:
When pricey tonearms ...

... it works better.

Camelcrap!

Lamont Sanford
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Re: SUBSONIC FILTERS

Run out of technical information to lay on us, Jan? You think these guys that rip you off with overpriced equipment don't count their beans going into the product?

Jan Vigne
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Re: SUBSONIC FILTERS

LOL, LS, LOL.

I thought this wasn't supposed to be personal.

Lamont Sanford
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Re: SUBSONIC FILTERS

Run out of technical information to lay on us, Jan?

Jan Vigne
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Re: SUBSONIC FILTERS

Good comeback, LS.

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