bertdw
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Stylus Wear Experiment
Jan Vigne
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I'd have to say I've seen better tests. Your's is a bit like running a car's motor without oil just to see if it will actually wear.

The number of days between the start and the end of your test is too long to have sufficient memory of what occured. You should have made a test recording on day one if this was the route you intended to take. Even that might not show the stylus damage depending on your other equipment.

A line contact stlyus will have a larger footprint on the disc but it will also tend to show signs of wear faster than an elliptical stylus since there is just that "line" of contact with the record groove.

If you are not hearing any signs of stylus wear, then I wouldn't be too concerned. Though this, like your test, is waiting for the damage to occur before you take steps to reduce record wear.

Take the stylus to a jeweller and ask if they can examine the stylus. Tell them to examine the stylus for flat spots on the egde of the stone. Or buy a loop and take a look yourself.

dcstep
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Did you rely on your aural memory over a period of days and then notice a loss of "air?" I really doubt that any of use have aural memory that good.

If you have a high quality recorder, then you could record the record each day at the same level and then just compare the 1st recording to the 10th. If you hear a difference in an A-B like that, then some damage is being done. Of course, you need a really good recorder that can at least record at 24/96, but preferably at 24/192 or DSD. Lacking that, I'm not sure how you can make your experiment valid.

Dave

Jan Vigne
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If you have a high quality recorder, then you could record the record each day at the same level and then just compare the 1st recording to the 10th.

There would seem to be a flaw in your methodology. What's he to do with recordings 2-9?

bertdw
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The number of days between the start and the end of your test is too long to have sufficient memory of what occured.

I'm sorry, I thought I made this clear. I did not rely on an aural memory from eleven days prior, I compared the sound of tracks one and four to that of tracks two and three, while the album side was playing through. This live recording has the same performers, instrumentation, hall acoustics, and microphone positions for all four selections, which is one reason I chose it.


Quote:
Or buy a loop and take a look yourself.

I don't think a loop would have the power required. Most recommendations I've seen for examining stylus wear start at 100X. Especially for a stylus with tip radii of 5 and 80 microns.


Quote:
Though this, like your test, is waiting for the damage to occur before you take steps to reduce record wear.

Yes, but at least I know (or hoped to know) that I'm not causing damage at the moment, or have caused it in the past.

Jan Vigne
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I'm sorry, I thought I made this clear. I did not rely on an aural memory from eleven days prior, I compared the sound of tracks one and four to that of tracks two and three, while the album side was playing through. This live recording has the same performers, instrumentation, hall acoustics, and microphone positions for all four selections, which is one reason I chose it.

OK, I have no idea how that resolves what you did. It truly doesn't matter, a worn stylus isn't even going to wear down a record groove in ten plays unless the stylus is well beyond hope. The difference between the first play and the last play should be very much the same if the stylus is only moderately worn. Your mood, the barometric pressure, or a dozen other influences could give a false reading with this test.

You are wearing down the stylus in order to find out if the stylus is worn down.

?

How about we say it's like leaving the car idling in the driveway to see if you really can get 100,000 miles on the engine.


Quote:
I don't think a loop would have the power required. Most recommendations I've seen for examining stylus wear start at 100X. Especially for a stylus with tip radii of 5 and 80 microns.

Humor me. Try it before you say it can't work. Take it to a jeweller.

Call the local high school and ask if, in return for your tax dollars, you can borrow the use of one of their microscopes for five minutes.

Or, if you really are concerned, buy a new stylus.

Buddha
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Dude, you call yourself an audiophile?

Buy a new one, of course!

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I borrowed one of those 50x pocket microscopes that may still be available at Edmund Scientific (or whatever their new name is). With the stylus tip pointing up, illuminate the stylus from both sides and look through the microscope down onto the stylus tip. You should see tiny dots of light reflecting from the stylus (for elliptical tips). If the light looks like a patch and not a fine point, the stylus has wear.

I know that the microscope is not high resolution, so it's a cheap way to look at the stylus. If you have access to a better microscope, that's the way to go.

Hope this description is clear enough.

bertdw
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It truly doesn't matter, a worn stylus isn't even going to wear down a record groove in ten plays unless the stylus is well beyond hope.

That answers one question, thank you. So you think a worn stylus would be audible to an astute audiophile before it begins to significantly damage the grooves? I've been under the impression that the opposite was possible. In fact, I remember an old advertisement from a cartridge manufacturer, encouraging customers to replace the stylus frequently because damage could occur before you might hear it.

bertdw
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Dude, you call yourself an audiophile?

Buy a new one, of course!

I know, I know. I hang my head and golden ears in shame.

The MC20 Mk. II Super is discontinued. The closest model in the Ortofon line is the Rondo Bronze at $1050, or $787.50 with my trade-in. Can't do it right now. Retipping by Soundsmith would be $350, but I'm hesitant. Their diamonds look black in the photographs. I don't want coal in my stocking for Christmas!

bertdw
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To Jan and WTL, thank you for your time and thoughtfulness. I will try to find a magnifying device and have a look for myself.

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Wish I'd stumbled over this thread earlier but better late than never.
If you decide to have the Ortophon re-tipped consider sending it to Garrot Bros. http://www.garrottbrothers.com/ In my experience they're the best on the planet and have stocks of Fritz Gieger's diamonds to suit your cartridge. The mail costs to and from Australia won't be all that huge.
As to stylus wear, the key as far as I'm concerned, is how clean your records are kept. I've been running a Garrott Bros 'Optim' cartridge with a Fritz Gieger 'F.G.S.' diamond for 4 years now on average 3 hours per day, 7 days per week, and under Garrott Bros microscope last month it appeared as new. To achieve those kinds of results though you need a vacuum LP cleaning machine.

bertdw
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If you decide to have the Ortophon re-tipped consider sending it to Garrot Bros.

I'll consider that. Thanks for the tip. (Oh, that was bad! )

I've used a VPI HW16.5 for twenty years now. Great machine.

I wish I had as much time to listen as you!

dcstep
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Quote:

Quote:
If you have a high quality recorder, then you could record the record each day at the same level and then just compare the 1st recording to the 10th.

There would seem to be a flaw in your methodology. What's he to do with recordings 2-9?

There's no flaw at all. You're so thick headed!

If there's going to be a difference, then it'll be easiest to hear comparing 1 and 10. If he hears that, then he can go back and compare the others, if he wants, to see when the damage became noticeable.

Dave

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The MC20 Mk. II Super is discontinued. The closest model in the Ortofon line is the Rondo Bronze at $1050, or $787.50 with my trade-in. Can't do it right now. Retipping by Soundsmith would be $350, but I'm hesitant. Their diamonds look black in the photographs. I don't want coal in my stocking for Christmas!

Soundsmith is great. Those diamonds look black due to the lighting. They do that so you can see the tip shape. You can use them with confidence.

The only problem is, you'll need something to use while you're waiting for your original to be repair as it take more than a couple of days. You might consider buying one of Soundsmith's moving iron cartridges as a back up, or potential replacement, depending on how you like it. The Voice is out of your stated price range, but I love the sound of mine. They've got a wide price range and Peter Ledermann is very helpful if you discuss your needs with him.

Dave

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Soundsmith is great. Those diamonds look black due to the lighting. They do that so you can see the tip shape. You can use them with confidence.

Thank you so much, Dave! That has been bothering me for a while. I'm still undecided, but I think I'm closer.

I could use my CDs to fill the analog-free interim.

Jan Vigne
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If there's going to be a difference, then it'll be easiest to hear comparing 1 and 10. If he hears that, then he can go back and compare the others, if he wants, to see when the damage became noticeable.

Riiiiiiiiiight! I'm the one being thickheaded.

"Mr. Smith, I'm afraid I must inform you, you are dead. All indications suggest this occurred on Sunday, May, 21 of this year at approximately ... Mr. Smith? Uh, Mr. Smith? You're dead, Mr. Smith, I was telling you just when this incident occurred, now as I was saying ...

Mr. Smith, are you going to pay attention here or not?"

Glad you cleared that up.

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Thank you so much, Dave! That has been bothering me for a while. I'm still undecided, but I think I'm closer.

I could use my CDs to fill the analog-free interim.

Oh horrors.

Call and ask to speak to Peter Ledermann or email him. Discuss your needs and desires and he'll put you on the right path. (BTW, Peter just returned from a hospital stay and is working part days, so it may take a day or two for him to call you back).

Dave

bertdw
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Just to beat this into the ground a bit more, I decided to take a poll. Notice I've left out qualifiers, like some damage and audible under certain conditions, etc. So please, pick the one you feel is more true.

Jan Vigne
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Which "records"? A stylus in perfect shape can damage certain sections of certain discs.

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Quote:

Quote:
If you decide to have the Ortophon re-tipped consider sending it to Garrot Bros.

I'll consider that. Thanks for the tip. (Oh, that was bad! )

I've used a VPI HW16.5 for twenty years now. Great machine.

I wish I had as much time to listen as you!


I use a VPI 16.5 too. Not as well engineered as their turntables but it does the job. Time to listen to music? I retired some years ago, don't have that many family distractions and hardly ever watch television.

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