You are here

Log in or register to post comments
Billiam
Billiam's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 1 week ago
Joined: Feb 22 2014 - 6:18pm
Speaker Placement

I bought  home that has a somewhat irregular shaped living room.  Size is 14 feet by 14 feet. 

On the wall where I would like to locate my speakers there is a fireplace with a mantle that juts out from the back wall.  Size of this mess is about 6 feet across and sticks out about 15 inches from the wall.  Height of the thing is to about the top of the ceiling which is 9 feet.  This leaves about 3 feet of wall on either side of the fireplace that is recessed from the part of the wall that juts out into the living room.

I have not tried to set up my stereo there yet.  I am wondering what will happen to the sound if I put the speakers in the recessed part of the room.  They have rear ports and sound best when they are about 15 to 20 inches from the back wall.  Thus, at least this pair of speakers would be on either side of the fireplace and then sit ahead of the portion of the wall that juts into the living room.

Has anyone ever had an issue like this before and if so, how did it impact the sound?  Would I be better off putting these speakers or a new pair right against the rear wall and have the speakers behind the fireplace and mantle?  Or will they sound better if they are out in the room?

 

JoeE SP9
JoeE SP9's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Oct 31 2005 - 6:02pm
position

If they are rear ported placing them against the front wall will negatively effect the bass response. I call it the front wll because it's in front of you.

If you want speakers that you can place against the front wall you need either sealed box or front ported speakers.

Billiam
Billiam's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 1 week ago
Joined: Feb 22 2014 - 6:18pm
So essentially facing the

So essentially facing the ports at the wall will negatively impact the sound.  I was afraid of that.  

Any ideas as far as closed boxes or front ported speakers these days?  I am only shopping for book shelf speakers, not towers unless the towers are light, under 30 lbs. each.  Tired of moving heavy speakers these days.  Budget is topped at $500.00 USA.

 

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 20 min 22 sec ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
your listening?

Hi Bill

Are you using this for basic listening with the rest of the room used as a living room?

14 x 14 is not anything to worry about if the room is constructed out of wood studs and drywall. If plaster walls then you have issues that you'll want to work around. Also if your not that concerned about a super deep sound stage those areas could be nice for corner loading with a little playing.

Is the floor wood or carpet, and do you have a basement underneath or on a slab?

As position said, ports can get tricky but there are tricks to try if you run into problems.

Billiam
Billiam's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 1 week ago
Joined: Feb 22 2014 - 6:18pm
Hi Michael:   Yes, the

Hi Michael:

 

Yes, the primary use of this room will be a living room.  I am creating a second room that will be my true media room and will have a separate stereo system.  No issues with the walls in that one.

Will go with worst case scenario with the walls.  It's an older home and it may have plaster walls.  Hard to tell since I just bought it and noted it has fresh paint.  Tough to tell if it is plaster in the living room.  One BR does appear to have plaster on the wall since I can tell from the pattern on the wall that was painted over.  Definitely wood studs of course.  

Floor is all hardwood.  No plans for carpet right now.  If I keep the house then I may carpet the floor.

Cellar is only partial.  The living room has a foundation under it but I don't believe it is a slab.  Feels like just empty space below the floor until you hit dirt probably a couple of feet below.  Floor is very solid though.

Initially I was looking at buying one of the following but all are rear ported:

Dali Zensor 1 or 3

Jamo C603 or C803

Boston Acoustics M 25

Phase Technology V 52 or V 62

Last night I did some research and found Polk makes some speakers that are front ported.  RTIA 1 and RTIA 3 don't have rear ports, are in my price range and according to reviews quite good.  Fairly neutral sounding and have excellent detail.

Billiam
Billiam's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 1 week ago
Joined: Feb 22 2014 - 6:18pm
Would blocking rear firing

Would blocking rear firing ports on the back side of the speaker with foam allow me to use a speaker without a front firing port?

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 20 min 22 sec ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
your room and system

Hi Bill

Thank goodness you have the hardwood floor and joists underneath it. This many times saves the day for plaster walls.

You say you already have speakers and a system to put in there? But, your not sure how they will work, right? or Are you getting something new to put in there anyway?

Here's why, if you let me know what you have and some idea of the conditions, where the house is (part of the US) (if wanting to stay private you can visit me on http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/  and let me know), your system and I might have a few other questions for you, I will be able to walk you through your sound.

If Plaster walls BTW they are probably plaster/lathe which have a completely different sound than studs/drywall. These can get pretty screwy because of the high level of reflection as opposed to a wall that has more flex. Here's one secret for you. If you deside to cover the floor don't put in a carpet but instead a rug in the middle of the room leaving at least 3'-4' of hardwood exposed around the room. This will burn your center node but leave the sound of the wood for flavor. You want that flavor to offset your plaster walls.

Ok now let me hit you up with something. If this is a living room with a typical furniture presence I would consider going with a satellite/sub setup. One of the worse things people do is try to get speakers to work when the speakers are floor standing and firing into furniture. If you mounted book shelf speakers above the furnitures absorbent range maybe 4 to 5' at the bottom of the speaker to floor and turn the speaker up side down so the tweeter is on the bottom, then added the sub, you could have a setup that will surprise the heck out of you, and blow away many systems that are trying to make the speakers do something they can't.

Here's the good news, you could get great sound and be under budget if you went this route. Not only would you get a nice balanced sound but also actually have a soundstage to enjoy.

Billiam
Billiam's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 1 week ago
Joined: Feb 22 2014 - 6:18pm
Hi Mike: Actually I don't

Hi Mike:

Actually I don't have speakers for this room yet.  I have a pair of Jamo C601's but they will be used in the media room until I can either use my Mirage OM 10's (boxed up due to a pet issue) or can buy a suitable replacement.  So I may be shopping for two pairs of speakers this year but first want to concentrate on buying something for the living room in the immediate future.

The house is in northern Kentucky just across the river from Cincinnati.  It was built almost 100 years ago.  Bungalow style.  Judging by the appearance the walls probably are plaster, not drywall.  I have rapped my knuckles on them in the past and they don't sound like Drywall at all.  More solid sounding.  At this point I don't plan to cover the floor but I do agree a rug in the middle would be the best way to go.  But for now, no an open wood floor is going to stay.

I am using a Qinpu A3 hybrid tube/solid state amp.  Cambridge Audio A300 CD player which will get replaced this year since this one is on the way out and has been in use for 13 years!  LCD's are gone and the tray locks up most of the time.  Using AudioQuest Type 4 speaker cable.  Audio Art IC3 Interconnects for the CD player.  Pangea 14SE power cable for the CD player.

I would prefer to use a bookshelf or sat-sub combo as you've suggested.  Have given some thought to using something like the Jamo A510 on the walls.  Can mount them high up though they would still be located in the recessed portion of the walls with the fireplace on one side of each blocking the audio on that side for 15 to 20 inches.   Thought about the Jamo Sat 25 series but noted the sensitivity is terrible at around 81 db.  My amp won't drive those.  They do fine with the 86 db into 6 ohms that the Jamo C601's have but I don't dare try a speaker that has much less than 86 db sensitivity.  The Tweeter is on the bottom of these Jamo speakers and I have also considered the larger cousin C603 which has the same configuration.  But they both have that rear firing port and they sound better when mounted away from the wall by 15 to 20 inches.  Do you think these would sound OK if I added a sub?

The speakers I had on my initial list to consider are as follows:

Jamo C603 or C803

Dali Zensor 1 or 3

Boston Acoustics M25

Phase Technology V 52 or V 62

But alas, all have a rear firing port.  Not sure how they will sound if they are mounted on the wall with that one side being blocked by the fireplace and mantle.  

I noted the new Polk TSX 220b book shelf has no port and seems to get pretty good reviews.  Probably a good cheap speaker that at least will be fairly neutral and not bright.  Would consider that if using a rear ported speaker will not work at all in this situation even when mounted on the wall and while utilizing a sub woofer.

The following link has a picture of a room that is virtually identical to my living room minus the furniture.  It shows how the fireplace juts out into the room and has about 3 to 4 feet open space to the back wall on either side.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?158687-Back-to-the-drawin...

Any additional thoughts are appreciated.

JoeE SP9
JoeE SP9's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 months 2 weeks ago
Joined: Oct 31 2005 - 6:02pm
choosing speakers
Billiam wrote:

So essentially facing the ports at the wall will negatively impact the sound.  I was afraid of that.  

Any ideas as far as closed boxes or front ported speakers these days?  I am only shopping for book shelf speakers, not towers unless the towers are light, under 30 lbs. each.  Tired of moving heavy speakers these days.  Budget is topped at $500.00 USA.

 

The only credible thing I or any else should be saying about choosing speakers is, "Make the effort to audition some speakers". Anything else that anyone says is nothing more than smoke blowing. Only your ears can help you decide what speakers you want to live with.

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 20 min 22 sec ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
speakers and room

Hi Bill

Smart move! You will not regret the sat/sub decision. As far as speakers go, I design them on a custom basis for folks and in this price range I look at speakers that can be moded into super speakers. Not to down play the ones you have mentioned but in my book the best sounding speaker by far under the $500.00 mark with even a little moding is the Dayton Audio B652. They cost next to nothing and with some tiny mods (you could do them) this speaker will put to shame many any where near the $500.00 range.  They are extremely easy to voice and if you mounted them with an omni bracket could set them out from the wall a little and make them sing. I have BTW moded some of the others on your list but found the DA's to be easier to voice as the other speakers already had their locked in sound.  One thing you don't want is a speaker that fights the space your using to play it.

I don't want to give away my trade secrets but I would be happy to help you mod these if you wanted to. Even if you didn't make the tweeter change I do or the hardwood front baffle, because the woofer is running with only a cap the tricks I'll show you will allow you to make these sound really nice. Basically what I would do is have you remove (carefully) the pads on the woofer, pull out the poly fill, and voice the inside of the cabinet with water based poly.  There is something that happens fairly magical with this cabinet once voiced that makes this woofer do things you would never guess.  Stock these speakers sound a little wooly but voiced a whole new speaker.

Here's a link so you can see what I do to mine http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t72-mga-speakers  but you don't need to go that nuts. Even doing a basic tune up would make these pretty nice.

I also have an idea for you about a CD player that is a best kept secret.

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 20 min 22 sec ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
and
JoeE SP9 wrote:
Billiam wrote:

So essentially facing the ports at the wall will negatively impact the sound.  I was afraid of that.  

Any ideas as far as closed boxes or front ported speakers these days?  I am only shopping for book shelf speakers, not towers unless the towers are light, under 30 lbs. each.  Tired of moving heavy speakers these days.  Budget is topped at $500.00 USA.

 

The only credible thing I or any else should be saying about choosing speakers is, "Make the effort to audition some speakers". Anything else that anyone says is nothing more than smoke blowing. Only your ears can help you decide what speakers you want to live with.

And I might add, that just because you hear a speaker in a store or a friends room this means little when you get it home.

For my own listening I have not owned a stock pair of speakers for over 15 years easy. Not saying any of these speakers are bad, it's just that every room and system is that different.

I really don't see what you are facing though is all that tough.

Billiam
Billiam's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 1 week ago
Joined: Feb 22 2014 - 6:18pm
Hello Mike: Getting ready

Hello Mike:

Getting ready for work.  Will be brief for the moment.

I have heard about these Dayton speakers and for the price, they get rave reviews.  Was not aware of the mod.  I will order these and then see about doing the updates.

I live in an apartment at the moment and don't have many tools handy.  What kind of tools are needed for these mods?  If it is more than I can handle right now, if I sent the speakers to you, what would you charge to do the upgrades?

Billiam
Billiam's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 1 week ago
Joined: Feb 22 2014 - 6:18pm
Joe.  Yes, I am aware of

Joe.  Yes, I am aware of that.  However the only genuine way to tell if a speaker is going to work in your home is to audtion it in the intended room.  Showroom listening is literally a waste of time for the most part.

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 20 min 22 sec ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
voicing the speakers

Hi Bill

I do a mod, but for the sake of not promoting my services and breaking any forum rules I'll show you how to do a simple one that any one can do with a screw driver a can of spray poly and a pair of pliers. If you want to go further you can find me on the web pretty easy. You'll be surprised though by the simple mod that you do.

Billiam
Billiam's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 1 week ago
Joined: Feb 22 2014 - 6:18pm
OK

That will be fine.  Don't want to break forum rules.

I do have one concern about this speaker.  Apparently the box itself is not as well built as it should be for a loudspeaker.  But that is expected for speakers costing around $50.00 a pair.  But it begs the question, will adding superior tweeters and drivers actually not perform up to their potential if the wood is not that thick?  I have read enough to know that a cabinet must be completely quiet and not create noise or vibrations if it is going to work properly.  Heavier wood is best.

Do you actually own a modified pair of these speakers?

BTW.  I don't need a lot of bass.  I may not need a subterreanean woofer and could probably get by with the pair of main speakers.  My Jamo C601's have bass rated at about 60 hz but offer more bass response below that with plenty of oomph behind it.I really need a clean yet smooth high end (I can still hear above 20 hz believe it or not) and it cannot be bright or fatiguing to my ears.  Precisely why I live the Jamo speakers and Mirage.  Both have very mellow highs that transition well with the midrange of each speaker.  I want to avoid the Klipsch sound if you know what I mean.  

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 20 min 22 sec ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
speaker design

Hi Bill

Yes, I'm listening to a pair now, without a sub. You're going to find a lot of speaker companies in the future go from heavy over built speakers to more resonant cabinets. The industry is still young and foolish at times lol. In my design I don't like the sound of heavy cabinets at all, the sound often gets stuck in the cabinet and a lot of problems start. What's worst is the heavier the cabinet the harder it is to work with the room.  I've been making speakers for over 30 years now and have not had cabinets  fall apart unless very miss treated like any thing else built. If you care for your speakers like an instrument they will be find.  Also once you poly the inside the cabinet becomes much stronger, like twice as strong no kidding.  I have to study wood strength cause I send it all over the world so I'm pretty up on it. Wood strength when rough or green (containing moisture) is a lot more weak than wood that is dried and treated with a good poly finish. You'll want to use a water based finish on the inside of the cabinet when you get it. Don't forget to do where the drivers attach. Trade secret here lol: You don't want to use oil finish on speaker cabinets unless you are sure that a speaker is going in the exact same humidity when played. That's a freebee. Two coats is ok, 4 coats is better. When you put on the finish let it dry good between coats, don't get in a hurry. The longer you let each coat dry the better the sound and the stronger the cabinet.

Let me go into speaker cabinets real fast before someone jumps in and makes a scene about how you have to build them like tanks. This is based on my experience and the many who have talked with me about their same findings.

Speaker designing has been going down some weird paths for an awful long time and anything that "they" don't understand (along with a lot of audio engineering type designs) they wave the distortion flag. It took me a big factory and engineers on staff and a ton of money in test equipment to realize this is BS. I've had to design and redesign this industry by myself to discover that there are tons of myths and egos who can't take the time to find out for themselves what is and isn't.  Sadly this hobby has many in it that only go as far as their training has taken them and haven't really answered the call of the listener.  There are designers who are absolute God sends to the cause but many (even with a lot of years in) who are still wearing diapers.

to answer the strength issue

You will find speaker designers screaming about wall thickness on one side and you will find the most solid drums in the world being built at 7mm, 1/4" guitar bodies, and cellos just as thin. What makes those instruments distort is not the thickness but when they are out of tune. Speaker designers have been making speakers out of tune for a long time. Some of the best sounding speakers I have ever heard have a baffle of .25" thick. Do they resonate? You bet, all speakers resonate.  Music is vibration and without it we wouldn't hear the drivers at all. A talented speaker designer to me is one who can couple the driver to the cabinet and create between the cabinet and drivers a speaker that performs much like the instruments being played.  When you mod these cabinets, they're going to get much stronger and resonate much better than the typical speaker. If you want to go even further look here again and read how to make them tunable. http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t72-mga-speakers . Now your talking! If you want more strength to the cabinet put a tuning bar in it. But honestly for what your doing I don't think you need to go that far to make these do some great things.

I invite you to read my writings on my forum, on here, other forums or what others have found about free resonance and tuning. There are some things that this industry has tried to do that don't add up. I have always believed that you have to make music to replay it. I completely got off the audiophile boat ancor yacht when it came floating by cause while the folks were talking about how the sound was getting better I heard it getting worst, I wasn't alone.  This industry (in the middle of the music industry boom) went from 250,000 thriving hobbyist (I don't have the numbers obviously) to maybe a 4th of that in 15 years. There are people who stand on their soap boxes and say why, but I think it's clear. There's only two reasons why a booming industry that has to do with music would get smaller.  One, they've over priced themselves out of a market, and two they weren't able to make improvements in the sound as promised.

When you get these speakers do a before and after. Listen to them stock, then listen to them voiced in. If you have any questions along the way you can get a hold of me if you miss me here. But I think it would be really cool to see you tune these and blow peoples minds :)

I can guarantee you this. The orders for the DA B652 are about to go up.

Billiam
Billiam's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 1 week ago
Joined: Feb 22 2014 - 6:18pm
Thanks

Since the speakers are so cheap I will give it a try.  Will try to spend some time this weekend looking at your site.  Busy with work during the week.  Will get the details needed to make the necessary modifcations.  I can certainly do what you described so far since it does not require much of a work bench or soldering.  Though it seems to me from what I've read a better tweeter and woofer must be used to really achieve a more audiophile like sound from this speaker.

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 20 min 22 sec ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
the mod

Hi Bill

Yep, give a peek at what I do with it and see what you think.  I've looked at some of the changes people have made to them. Kinda funny I think.

When I first got them I was actually hunting for a cabinet like this that I could make into a 5.25"  tunable mod, but after a got them I liked the way the woofer reacted to the voicing and kept using it. Kinda reminds me of an old sounding Vifa of fame years ago.  With the cabinet stock you don't really get the clarity no matter what you do, but once voiced, hello, whole new ball game. I personally don't use this tweeter but if you were thinking of those other speakers you really can't go wrong trying this tweeter.

One thing that I definitely don't like about the "audiophile sound" is the squeezed closed in a box sound.  Sounds like tin cans and drives me crazy. That's what happens to this woofer if you cross it over. People crossover things to death and by the time their done the speakers sound like robots trying to be real. I let the cabinets do the work. I want a guitar in the corner of my room not a robot. Most of my clients choose open over closed, but if you did make these tunable you could do either.

Also when you get to my forum read about the CD player most of these guys use.

Billiam
Billiam's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 1 week ago
Joined: Feb 22 2014 - 6:18pm
Questions

Hi Mike:

Is the cabinet on this speaker closed or ported?  I read one review that said it was ported.  But another review said it was not.  

Had an idea to fully upgrade the speaker.  I have a friend with a fair amount of electronics building experience and he has the right tools to do a complete modification of a speaker.  He lives a good 10 hours drive away but I could meet up with him some weekend in the Spring to do a complete make over of the speaker.  To me that makes more sense especially since I know the kind of sound that I want and can then tailor the upgrades to sound very much like the speakers I mentioned.

I have looked at the link that you've posted in a couple of your messages here.  Is that your website?

I should add that speaker technology has changed a bit in the last 15 years.  I fully agree with your views of speakers prior to this period.  But ever since I bought the Mirage OM 10 speakers I've noted a change in sound.  While many still sound boxy, many do not.  The Jamo C601 speakers I have a puny bookshelf speakers but literally disappear into the room and have a wide soundstage.  Close your eyes and listen and you don't know where they are.  Same with the Phase Technology speakers I mentioned.  

 

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 20 min 22 sec ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
the sound of materials

Hi Bill

Well you might like one of those then, I don't know. I am familar with the speakers you mention and although I don't want to down any specific models or brands, for my own listening I can't stand the sound of raw MDF cabinets or beding foam or poly stuffed in them. That sound is missing so much of the music, and what is left is so colored that you have to crossover them to death and you still don't get the missing music back. Really any company that says kill the inside of a cabinet I loose interest in. I have studied the inside of cabinets extensively on going now forever even the lastest models, that's pretty much what I do.

generally speaking to other readers also

On the acoustical forum here you'll see experts say how bad foam is acoustically in a room. I agree with this. Foam and other dampening materials remove and distort sound. If that happens in your listening room imagine what happens to the room inside of your speaker filled with this. Take a room and put in foam and it falls apart, take a guitar and put it in and it falls apart, take a speaker cabinet and put it in and yes, it falls apart. Why some designers or engineers can't hear this when it is so obvious makes me question how they are actually testing the sound of things. So much so that I visit speaker testing facilities and pretty much freak out. Then, I read home engineers do testing and freak out more. I grew up around testing and have been a part of it my whole life, and speaking for myself I would much rather trust someone who knows how to engineer by ear over a mic and computer anyday of the week.

This is a fact, I have never seen a speaker test that was able to be duplicated in two different locations. No one has ever been able to do this for me, and I have not been able to do it, and I've been with some of the smartest guys out there.

Sometimes, many times, this industry swings so far into the testing by mic and computer that the end result sounds nothing like live music. It's like the testing instead of starting from live (controlled live) and open and tuned in (like a musical instrument), these guys start from dead and then start twisting the frequencies around. It freaks me out a little and many others too with the way loose cannon designers who don't listen but only use their mics and out of tune conditions to come up with "their" sound or spec. There are some big problems that come from the lack of listening and a lack of a tuned environment to do the testing in and you can really hear this in speaker designs. Bad practices come out of this like, why would someone restrict the cabinets and then restrict the drivers from doing what they are meant to do. They say they do this so to remove distortion but they create the distortion to begin with. Then what happens is the driver companies start to build the restrictions into the drivers themselves, not allowing the drivers to make clean motions and limit the performance of the basket itself, which in turn distorts the drive cause the basket is touching the speaker. I understand what their trying to do as I sit with piles of drivers taking them apart after listening to them. They're trying to make a de-coupled world where one part doesn't affect another, but this is a losing battle because one part, every part does absolutely not only affect the other parts but makes the other parts.

When you take a driver, any driver, and attach it to a rubber gasket you change dramatically the performance of that driver, then you attach it to raw MDF with screws, which changes everything about the sound of any driver. Then you stuff the box with foam which further deadens the sound of the driver. I'm not even talking the acoustical part yet, but the mechanical function of that driver has completely been altered. People who don't believe this, get out your screw driver and start twisting screws and you will change the sound of the drivers just by twisting screws all day long. Now do something un heard of and remove the rubber gasket. Forget about air leaks try it. The sound of that driver will have turned into a different animal. Put away your mic and listen. You can hear that some things opened up, but you still have the nasty sound of the MDF being part of the drivers performance. Change that MDF to an instrument grade wood (not audiophile buzz word instrument grade wood lol) and listen to that driver direct coupled and you will be in shock. Now learn how to voice cabinets and treat the insides instead of killing them and you are on your way to a good sounding speaker. I didn't say leave the inside reflective BTW, I said treat it just like you would a room tuning the inside so it has a nice even response. If you do this you will find your back wave problem disappeared and your efficiency go up a lot. Your drivers once this is voiced correctely are going to work with ease and the strain on your amps will go away. Now your going to be tempted and should be to buy drivers that are not over dampened.

For those still worried about the cabinets vibrating out of control that's an easy fix. When you brace your cabinets your putting in blocks on the inside. To make a cabinet vibrate properly you don't just want inside pressure pushing out but you want equaly pressure from the outside pushing in. Look at a picture of my speakers or any speaker that has bolts or screws where the heads are applying the outside pressure in. Once you find the equal pressure out and in the cabinet allows the drivers to fire as true pistons and a ton of distortion problems vanish.

Any who don't believe, try it and I'll help if you would like. I absolutely guarantee that this will change speaker designing. First though the distortion bullies need to chill out and let down their guard a little. The way to get rid of distortion is letting those drivers move like pistons and voicing a cabinet to get along with the driver instead of fighting it.

sorry Bill kinda got in speach mode to the general population lol

Billiam
Billiam's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 1 week ago
Joined: Feb 22 2014 - 6:18pm
Mike: I am going to look

Mike:

I am going to look into this.  Over the last few months I have thought about buying a speaker kit from Dayton and then build it.  But until I have the room and tools it makes little sense.  Once I get into my house it will be easier to tackle that kind of project.

Back to the mod for the Dayton bookshelf.  Does it have a rear port?  As previously mentioned I've seen at least one review claim it does but another claims it does not.  I can't use a rear ported speaker in the living room of that house.  I am going to put drapes over the two windows which I think will help reduce some of the problems associated with plaster. 

I briefly looked at the website you have linked in these messages but cannot find any info about modifying the Dayton speaker.  A little about room acoustics and placement of speakers but that was fairly general info.

Billiam
Billiam's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 1 week ago
Joined: Feb 22 2014 - 6:18pm
Mike: Spent a few minutes

Mike:

Spent a few minutes looking at reviews of the Dayton speaker again and noted the Port on the back is gone with the latest edition.  Apparently it was only included in the first edition.  Reviews seem to indicate that the first edition of this speaker was excellent while the last two are not that good.  Thus modifying it is essential if one is to achieve good sound.

I may be better off buying a kit though.  Someone mentioned that he had to destroy the existing tweeter in the unit to do an upgrade to the unit.  Apparently the design is not easy to work with probably because it is small.  I am not what you would call talented with projects that require working with my hands other than cooking.  Used to pound nails but did some framing and roofing.  Nothing remotely close to what is involved here.  Thus, I think building a kit, based upon what I have read will be easier for me.

Can you suggest  a specific kit from Dayton or elsewhere that won't cost an arm and a leg that will give me the sound I desire?  Neutrual to slightly warm mid and high end and moderate bass.  Like a wide soundstage too.  Building from scratch is a possibility though I have not clue about mixing and matching components.

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 20 min 22 sec ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
the DA kits

Hi Bill

I'm not very crazy about the sound of any of the DA kits, so can't help you there.

On the B652 the non-ported version was the only one I was interested in moding so I never did the ported version. As I said earlier I was getting it for the cabinet and ended up liking the mod keeping the woofer.  I personally feel that the moded B652 I described even keeping the tweeter would be the way I would choose to go over the other products you mentioned.

For acoustics I also wouldn't use drapes but a nice bamboo blind. Drapes kill sound whereas the blind will help tune it.

It sounds to me that you are doing a lot of reading which is good, but I would recommend looking into some reading where the approaches to sound are a little more on the musical side than the dampening the sound side. You'll find that there are basically two camps, one that comes more from engineering on a hobby level, and the other that comes from more of an engineering/listening side that is shy about the use of anything that will end up killing (distorting) the sound. The second is my camp. Not to be an audio snob, but most of us guys who are designers that have grown out of the kill it camp started there then learned how much the sound got distorted through dampening, too much mass and other things that take away from the music. When I read the forums and hobbyist reviews (many times even pro reviews) I take them with a grain, because I realize they are on the path like we all once were or are still on.

The more we talk back and forth I almost feel like back tracking and saying pick a model and go for it, reason being, if you try to do a mod or kit and are mixing two different design ideas you could end up with a real mess. You have one guy (me) telling you open things up, and others saying close things down by recommending drapes, and saying the cabinet is too resonant and I'm sure will say throw foam in the cabinet, glue gaskets and all the stuff that leads to in my book distortion. The flip to this is I hear you describe the sound you want and like and think, man if you pursue tuning in your system and room by learning a little more about voicing the two you will end up with something really enjoyable. Maybe you should keep this thread here but also start a thread over on tuneland where you can talk to guys who are doing this and ask them questions about tuning in their system.  just a thought

Billiam
Billiam's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 1 week ago
Joined: Feb 22 2014 - 6:18pm
Hi Mike: I will sign up for

Hi Mike:

I will sign up for you forum within the next few days.  Should have time to post this weekend.

I have a situation that will likely require drapes at least in the current house.  Road noise.  The living room is only about 30 feet from a fairly main street complete with city buses.  Thus, drapes will need to cover the windows to help reduce road noise.  And will also aid in keeping heat in the home during the winter and cool air in the summer.

I will want to get complete details about modifying the B652 from Dayton.  I will try this first and then see if I like the sound or not.  

Bear in mind that audio and speakers in particular are a very subjective topic.  What sounds good to one person may not sound right to someone else.  What I can hear you may not be able to hear and vice versa.  I have a good friend who has decades of experience with electronics of all forms.  To this day he will swear that using different kinds of wires will not result in a different sound in audio.  His ears just can't hear the difference.   You and I could try different IC's or speaker cables and likely hear a difference.  Same thing with power cables in the components.  But in his case, I doubt he could hear the difference.  

This is probably why speaker technology has evolved the way it has.  People that that can hear subtle nuances in music are in the minority and so these big speaker companies have to create and market products that appeal to the mass market.  That simple.

I have found a number of these mass market speakers sound OK or great to my ears.  That does not mean some of the ideas you have are good and may turn an ordinary speaker into a great one.  That is probably the case.  And with luck, if that turns out to be the case then after I modify a pair of cheap speakers perhaps they will sound like a $800 pair after all.

michael green
michael green's picture
Offline
Last seen: 20 min 22 sec ago
Joined: Jan 10 2011 - 6:11pm
wise words

Your sounding like a "Tunee" already :-)

One of the things I like most about being a Tunee is there is no, you gotta listen this way.  Instead it's about exploring how much music is there through uncovering the layers and clouds. Once someone gets to a certain level they (as you will read) go off in their own world creating the right sound for them, but having the tools of listening a little more refined.

"everything affects everything else"

  • X
    Enter your Stereophile.com username.
    Enter the password that accompanies your username.
    Loading