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ncdrawl
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some good links on cable discussion
ncdrawl
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Re: some good links on cable discussion
Jan Vigne
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Re: some good links on cable discussion


Quote:
some good links on cable discussion

.

What "cable discussion"? We've discussed cables to no end and to no one's satisfaction. No opinions are ever changed in such threads. Only udp continues to believe this is a relevant topic. Why introduce yet another opportunity for vitriolic refuse?

BillB
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Re: some good links on cable discussion


Quote:
... We've discussed cables to no end and to no one's satisfaction. No opinions are ever changed in such threads. Only udp continues to believe this is a relevant topic. Why introduce yet another opportunity for vitriolic refuse?

Probably because this is a forum for discussion; and some people come into the forums without having been part of former threads, or do not feel that the topic is irrelevant.

Elk
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Re: some good links on cable discussion

And some find these topics endlessly fascinating - not unreasonable.

Jan Vigne
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Re: some good links on cable discussion


Quote:
Probably because this is a forum for discussion; and some people come into the forums without having been part of former threads, or do not feel that the topic is irrelevant.

Or they don't care to glance at the archives of the forum. If these were topics for discussion, it would be one thing. Has anyone new to this forum or not new to this forum ever seen a cable thread that was a "discussion"? Whoever starts the thread always has a point they want to impress on those who open the thread. That's typically were the "discussion" ends.

As it exists, we always - as it always goes on every audio forum - end up without a "discussion" breaking out. Without trying I could go to the archives and pull out a few dozen cable/tweak/alternative treatment threads that have been started within the last few months. Not one of them resulted in a civil discussion.

Is it necessary to start another thread that essentially calls other members fools, idiots, "voodoo" charlatans, etc. due to their personal experiences? For every link that says cables don't matter anyone with just as much time to kill can pull up another forum thread or article that suggests cables do matter. Do we really need another link?

It's difficult for me to believe we have not progressed beyond that point by now. Why spend so much time telling others what they should not be doing, what they should not believe and what they should not purchase?

Jan Vigne
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Re: some good links on cable discussion


Quote:
And some find these topics endlessly fascinating - not unreasonable.

Then they would be well served reading the very forums they link to which contain nothing more than opinions of others like them. Or read the articles they feel confident support their own already established opinion. (A turntable link buried in a cable thread?!) Because whatever is in those forums and articles is all they want to see and there is nothing else to be said about the matter.


Quote:
Sorry, vinyl aficionados, but CDs most accurately capture the clarity of musical performances.

That is, I think, an unreasonable way to begin the same "discussion" for the upteenth time this week.

ncdrawl
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Re: some good links on cable discussion

if my posts upset your sensibilities, dear jan, I reccomend that you turn your gaze elsewhere.

it wasnt a cable discussion request.. It was an opportunity for some of those who dont have their heads up their 3rd point of contact to see other views from established professionals with no stock in the audiophile industry.

go figger.. discussing, learning on a discussion forum... so whine away, Jan. I would like to point out that you come off rather childish. "mommy, make them stop!"

Ive insulted noone, and posted that simply to provide another outlet of exploration. the whole "man can never suffer from too much knowledge" sort of deal, you know?

i reckon you should probably stand down, jan. I aint the fella that is going to change what I do to appease you.

carry on.

scottgardner
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Re: some good links on cable discussion


Quote:
That is, I think, an unreasonable way to begin the same "discussion" for the upteenth time this week.

Jan,

How is this germane to the topic at hand? Who made you arbiter of what, how and when? Ease up a bit, OK?

Elk
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Re: some good links on cable discussion

Jan, why are you working so hard to kill various threads, discourage new members and to pick fights?

We do not need a replacement for DUP, even if you can spell "the".

If you are not interested in the thread, just ignore it and let others have there say.

Perhaps ncdrawl does have a point he would like to make - so let him make it.

Jan Vigne
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Re: some good links on cable discussion


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i reckon you should probably stand down, jan. I aint the fella that is going to change what I do to appease you.

Jeez! You reckon', huh?

I'm afraid there isn't an anti-cable link you can provide that hasn't already been posted at least three times by upd. But if you have something to say, say it. Posting links and walking away is an all too familiar gambit also.

Jan Vigne
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Re: some good links on cable discussion


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Jan,

How is this germane to the topic at hand?

Ask yourself the same question. Please, show me you have something of value to contribute. You want us to think you are quite bright and very witty. When does that part of you show up? C'mon, Scott, say something that matters and don't worry so much about what I say.

Jan Vigne
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Re: some good links on cable discussion


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Jan, why are you working so hard to kill various threads, discourage new members and to pick fights?

Whether you wish to believe it or not, I'm not the one wanting to "pick fights" and I didn't start anything with young Mr. Bartlett junior.

Why are you now always telling the new members everyone here ignores me and always making comments about my posts instead of responding to the topic of the thread? Don't you feel that might turn new members off to the forum also? Don't you have anything better to add than to respond to what I post with some form of put down? How does that move the thread forward, Elk? Huh? Ever think maybe you are just as guilty of killing threads and enthusiasm as anyone else here? Ever think you stoke the fires of a good fight with your negative comments? Wanna call me a terrorist? How about calling me anti-American, that always whips up the rabble.


Quote:
If you are not interested in the thread, just ignore it and let others have there say.

It's not that I am not interested in the thread. I am worn out by the constant rehashing of the same half dozen negative topics which pass for a forum "discussion". Do we really need another anti-cable thread with a smattering of anti-vinyl thrown in for good measure? Do we really need another set of links to anti-cable articles and other forums with anti-cable opinions? Has anyone checked the archives of this forum to see just how many of those same threads have been inserted onto this forum in the last year?

Enough is enough! Post something positive about this hobby. Tell me what you enjoy about the hobby and not what you think I shouldn't believe in or how I shouldn't spend my money. You are not going to change my mind or the mind of anyone else who disagrees with you about cables/vinyl/tweaks etc. So stop trying. We do not need to discuss this over and over and over again.

dup is gone! Now's the time for the forum to turn over a new leaf and get this discussion group on a positive track that turns its back on all the negativism he brought to this group.

Doesn't that sound more appealing than another anti-cable/anti-vinyl thread?

scottgardner
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Re: some good links on cable discussion


Quote:

Quote:
That is, I think, an unreasonable way to begin the same "discussion" for the upteenth time this week.


Quote:
Jan,

How is this germane to the topic at hand?

Ask yourself the same question. Please, show me you have something of value to contribute. You want us to think you are quite bright and very witty. When does that part of you show up? C'mon, Scott, say something that matters and don't worry so much about what I say.

I may not agree with other peoples' ideas but I WILL defend their right to express them without you deciding if it's reasonable or not.

Hence, I have decided to make you my special little project. As long as you keep your snide remarks to yourself I won't smack them with a ruler.

Now behave.


Quote:
Young Mr. Bartlett junior.

Hey, I resemble that remark. Actually thats not too bad. I'll have to think about using it...

ncdrawl
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Re: some good links on cable discussion

they werent anti cable posts, fella.
it was intended simply as a resource.

rest assured that if I have something to say there shall be no doubts as to the message. this thread, however, was simply to point out a couple of links that I thought were interesting.

you are hostile and reactionary. calm down.


Quote:

Quote:
i reckon you should probably stand down, jan. I aint the fella that is going to change what I do to appease you.

Jeez! You reckon', huh?

I'm afraid there isn't an anti-cable link you can provide that hasn't already been posted at least three times by upd. But if you have something to say, say it. Posting links and walking away is an all too familiar gambit also.

scottgardner
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Re: some good links on cable discussion


Quote:
It's not that I am not interested in the thread. I am worn out by the constant rehashing of the same half dozen negative topics which pass for a forum "discussion". Do we really need another anti-cable thread with a smattering of anti-vinyl thrown in for good measure? Do we really need another set of links to anti-cable articles and other forums with anti-cable opinions? Has anyone checked the archives of this forum to see just how many of those same threads have been inserted onto this forum in the last year?

Enough is enough! Post something positive about this hobby. Tell me what you enjoy about the hobby and not what you think I shouldn't believe in or how I shouldn't spend my money. You are not going to change my mind or the mind of anyone else who disagrees with you about cables/vinyl/tweaks etc. So stop trying. We do not need to discuss this over and over and over again.

dup is gone! Now's the time for the forum to turn over a new leaf...

Dude,

Face it, you are old and irrelevant. Us newcomers would like a chance to discuss things on our own terms. No one wants some old fart complaining about everything and trying to direct every discussion.

So what if everything has already been said and is stored in some archive. Just because you're in a library doesn't mean you stop talking about the topics stored there. If people just want a reference they can buy a book. People come here to interact with other people. Why are you so intent on interfering with this?

Maybe it's time you follow DUP.


Quote:
Doesn't that sound more appealing


Yes.

Jim Tavegia
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Re: some good links on cable discussion

Jan,

I guess the question is has DUPs replacement show up?

Jan Vigne
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Re: some good links on cable discussion

LOL

Thankfully, no. This too will pass.

ncdrawl
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Re: some good links on cable discussion

I have nothing to do with DUP, if you are referring to me. I do appreciate DUP's common sense sort of thinking.. but there are differences between he and I. Power conditioners, for example..he doesnt have manners and likes to hear himself post.

I dont really have an opinion of cables on way or the other. I do buy as nice a cable as I can afford.. Why? I dont know.It cant hurt, I dont guess. My mic cables are MIT, and my hifi stuff is analysis plus.

Jim Tavegia
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Re: some good links on cable discussion

It was not a reference to you.

dbowker
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Re: some good links on cable discussion

I thought the links were interesting. And not at all anti-cable, unless of course one is looking to feel that way, ahem, Jan.

Seriously- it's a CABLE section! Right? We talk about wire, cables, that sort of thing? What do you expect? And even if it WERE of an anti-cable bent, the guy's not DUP, and hasn't posted 520 anti-cable posts. It's this one only, and from his other posts, I take him at his word he actually just wants a discussion. If you can't have one without letting paranoia creep in I'd say it's time to take good long look in the mirror. The demons you think lurk around every corner are just not there.

Just the fact that all this time is being spent on YOUR over-reaction is proof enough that you and the former DUP aren't nearly so different. You can't let a thread grow without seeing your own myopic agenda and cry foul.

It's getting way boring dude... I know you can add something constructive, because sometimes you do. But it's way too often it's not.

exerciseguy
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Re: some good links on cable discussion

You know, sometimes you can judge a book by its cover.

Elk
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Re: some good links on cable discussion


Quote:
I do buy as nice a cable as I can afford.. Why? I dont know.


This is as honest as it gets.

I enjoy building my own as well, especially mic cables. I have never had one of my own fail and they do sound better than generic stuff.

Jan Vigne
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Re: some good links on cable discussion

You really need to get over your problems too.

Jan Vigne
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Re: some good links on cable discussion


Quote:
I dont really have an opinion of cables on way or the other.

Then I'm going to go back to my original question here; what cable discussion are we having?

Please tell me what the purpose of the thread is supposed to be? Two links to other forums discussing cables?! Is that important?

What?!

Are we supposed to discuss their discussion? I can't join that discussion to ask anyone questions or respond to their comments. They aren't going to respond to my comments. What purpose does it serve to link to another forum's cable discussion? What did you think was going to happen when you started this thread with those links and no discussion of your own? I can link to a dozen forums with cable threads. Why would I want to do that? They don't mean anything. They don't resolve anything here or there. And, if I'm not on the forum I link to, they are useless opinions that have other opinions which contradict those opinions. Big deal!

All you've provided is just someone else's opinion that isn't telling me anything new or interesting. Am I supposed to be interested because these aren't "audiophiles"? Is that it? I'm supposed to be impressed because these guys don't listen to the equipment I use?

Those forums are not informing me of anything other than all forums have cable threads that do not resolve anything. I knew that. Why start a thread that really says nothing and that you have no opinion about?

And why the anti-vinyl links thrown in? What possible purpose do they serve if this isn't an "anti-anything foolish audiophiles believe in" thread?

If you wanted a discussion, you might have begun a discussion rather than just posting links to another forum. Right now my opinion is if you want to continue that disussion, go back there to do it. I'm not suggesting you leave this forum but why the hell should I be interested in yet another forum's opinion? If I wanted another forum's opinion, I'd go to that forum myself or, if I was there in the first place, I'd stay there to finish the discussion on that forum. I wouldn't drag it over here as if it were news.

To me this doesn't sound as simple as you make it out to be. You might not be upd but why do we want any discussion of cables that we didn't begin and don't need?

Buddha
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Re: some good links on cable discussion

I'll take Paul Lynde to block the argument, please.

Paul to block the fighting? don't know if this thread can continue without more fighting.

Let's see.

Well, Peter, this looks like a tough block. What does Paul have to say?

Peter: "Paul, for the block, according to the French Chef, Julia Child, how much is a pinch?"

Paul Lynde: "Just enough to turn her on..."

Ok, now, we were talking about cables...

Jan Vigne
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Re: some good links on cable discussion

It's not an argument, Buddha. It's a question. I don't get the point of starting a thread about something you don't care about and if you took one quick look at the archives you could tell we've already had enough threads concerning this topic. If you want a discussion of something that doesn't interest you, why not start a disussion?

This has really out-upd'd upd. At least he was interested in the crap he posted.

Buddha
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Re: some good links on cable discussion

Hi, Jan.

What bums me out and is being missed is that JVS blogged on a project that is looking at different measurements and performance aspects of cables and cords, and.....ZERO INTEREST.

You know what would be cool...

Just like Bob Carver 'duplicated' the transfer factor of reference amps, how about if we could dial in the performance of Valhalla one day, and another brand the next?

Maybe it's time for a cable with adjustable capacitance, inductance, and reactance!

Cheers.

Jan Vigne
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Re: some good links on cable discussion

Wouldn't that be a tone control?

Buddha
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Re: some good links on cable discussion

Ain't they all?

Jan Vigne
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Re: some good links on cable discussion

I suppose that would be one theory popular with anti-cable forces. I'm surprised that thirty years into cables as components there would still be thinking that relegates cables to nothing more than manipulating capacitance, inductance and resistance. That's pushing us back to the T.H.D. spec tells you what an amplifier sounds like days.

But this alone is too likely to start another anti-cable battle.

RGibran
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Re: some good links on cable discussion

Instead of trying to incite the topic you claim we have no further need of, draw lines in the sand and label everyone who

Buddha
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Re: some good links on cable discussion


Quote:
I suppose that would be one theory popular with anti-cable forces. I'm surprised that thirty years into cables as components there would still be thinking that relegates cables to nothing more than manipulating capacitance, inductance and resistance. That's pushing us back to the T.H.D. spec tells you what an amplifier sounds like days.

But this alone is too likely to start another anti-cable battle.

I mentioned certain aspects that are measurable, and, perhaps, reproduceable. There have been many cables that offer 'adjustments,' as well.

I think it would be neat to make a cable that had multiple adjustment options and see if the "transfer function" of other cables could be duplicated.

Kind of like the old Bob Carver challenge!

I'm equally surprised that after 30 years of some honesty and some horse shit, we have these parameters we can measure with cable performance and we don't investigate cable differences with more vigor.

Not so much pushing us back to the days of THD in amps, more like holding us back in the cave and explaining magic shadows that appear on the wall.

Luckily, manufacturers are starting to show this sort of interest. I hope Jason's blog entry about the subject heralds a new wave of discussion and, gasp! measurement that makes some better progress on what is actually doing what!

RGibran
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Re: some good links on cable discussion


Quote:
What bums me out and is being missed is that JVS blogged on a project that is looking at different measurements and performance aspects of cables and cords, and.....ZERO INTEREST.

I tried to find your original post in an effort to keep your topic alive but failed. If I recall correctly all you did was provide a link to Jason's blog?

I don

Jan Vigne
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Re: some good links on cable discussion

I was unaware I was trying to "incite" the topic. Actually, I thought I was trying to subdue the topic before it got out of hand. And I've labelled no one. I do see the linked forum posts as largely anti-cable and the vinyl article that begins, "Sorry, vinyl aficionados, but CDs most accurately capture the clarity of musical performances", as decidedly anti-vinyl. What I have labelled all of this is rehashed and redundant.

So I have to ask, why would I want to provide fodder for a thread I don't feel should proceed? Capacitance, inductance, dis, dat and d'other. That's about all I have to say about any of those topics in this thread.

If that's where you're stuck with cables, then you can look up other comments about cables in numerous other places. You should begin with the archives of this forum, there are more than enough cable threads to keep you busy reading for awhile.


Quote:
Thirty years of cable as components? Is that a ex hi end sales clerk thing?

I think that's Stereophiles' approach to cables.


Quote:
Is that why you use 30 ga. Radio Shack magnet wire held together with masking tape in your reference system?

I use the cables because they are the best performing cables I can afford. Why would anyone use any product that isn't the best they can afford?

And, FYI, the tape holds the conductors apart not together. "Together" is an entirely different cable design.

scottgardner
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Re: some good links on cable discussion


Quote:
I was unaware I was trying to "incite" the topic...

[bla, bla, bla...]


"And oftentimes excusing of a fault doth make the fault the worse by the excuse."
-- William Shakespeare


Quote:
Peter: "Paul, for the block, according to the French Chef, Julia Child, how much is a pinch?"

Paul Lynde: "Just enough to turn her on..."

Aaaa, I love it...

"As for cables, sigh, I hate to get into a cable discussion, as they typically degrade quicker than a signal through a Bose speaker"
-- JonFo

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Re: some good links on cable discussion


Quote:
I was unaware I was trying to "incite" the topic. Actually, I thought I was trying to subdue the topic before it got out of hand. And I've labelled no one. I do see the linked forum posts as largely anti-cable and the vinyl article that begins, "Sorry, vinyl aficionados, but CDs most accurately capture the clarity of musical performances", as decidedly anti-vinyl. What I have labelled all of this is rehashed and redundant.

So I have to ask, why would I want to provide fodder for a thread I don't feel should proceed? Capacitance, inductance, dis, dat and d'other. That's about all I have to say about any of those topics in this thread.

If that's where you're stuck with cables, then you can look up other comments about cables in numerous other places. You should begin with the archives of this forum, there are more than enough cable threads to keep you busy reading for awhile.


Quote:
Thirty years of cable as components? Is that a ex hi end sales clerk thing?

I think that's Stereophiles' approach to cables.


Quote:
Is that why you use 30 ga. Radio Shack magnet wire held together with masking tape in your reference system?

I use the cables because they are the best performing cables I can afford. Why would anyone use any product that isn't the best they can afford?

And, FYI, the tape holds the conductors apart not together. "Together" is an entirely different cable design.

Hi, Jan.

I must have missed the post about the interconnects you use. This is an endlessly fascinating subject to me, could I get a rehash?

If the topic is contentious on this thread, I'd be happy to learn in a PM or email. If it's home brew, I'd try to make some!

I can't recall you mentioning your cable approach with regard to what was posted on this thread.

exerciseguy
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Re: some good links on cable discussion

Hey D'Artagnan, don't you have cape to mend or a sword to polish?

scottgardner
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Re: some good links on cable discussion


Quote:
Hey D'Artagnan, don't you have cape to mend or a sword to polish?

Ah, who is nigh? Come to me, friend or foe, be thee de Batz or Cyrano?

Elk
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Re: some good links on cable discussion


Quote:
So I have to ask, why would I want to provide fodder for a thread I don't feel should proceed?


This is precisely what the rest is us are asking: why are you posting in this thread?

Perhaps you would be so kind as to ignore this thread, proceed on your merry way, and leave the discussion to those that are interested.

I suggest a separate thread to respond to Buddha's question regarding your DIY cables. This way you will not need to see this discussion, and any discussion of your cable preferences can similarly advance unimpeded.

dbowker
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Re: some good links on cable discussion


Quote:

Quote:
So I have to ask, why would I want to provide fodder for a thread I don't feel should proceed?


This is precisely what the rest is us are asking: why are you posting in this thread?

Perhaps you would be so kind as to ignore this thread, proceed on your merry way, and leave the discussion to those that are interested.

Absolutely agreed!

exerciseguy
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Re: some good links on cable discussion


Quote:

Quote:
Hey D'Artagnan, don't you have cape to mend or a sword to polish?

Ah, who is nigh? Come to me, friend or foe, be thee de Batz or Cyrano?

Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words.

I'm sorry, I don't know who said that D'.

Jan Vigne
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Re: some good links on cable discussion

If you two ignore the thread, there won't be a thread. I'm here because people kept replying to me. Why are either of you two here? Neither of you are discussing cables and no one is addressing you. Just stickin' around to be a couple of priggish PITA?

Buddha, I'll send you a PM in the AM.

scottgardner
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Re: some good links on cable discussion


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
Hey D'Artagnan, don't you have cape to mend or a sword to polish?

Ah, who is nigh? Come to me, friend or foe, be thee de Batz or Cyrano?

Sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words.


but
"As the Chinese say, 1001 words is worth more than a picture"
-- jmc


Quote:
I'm sorry, I don't know who said that D'.

Tis I that make these quotes in jest as I keep my identity close to my vest.

Actually I screwed up, I should have used Fouquet in place of de Batz.

What do you expect from a fool?

Jan Vigne
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Re: some good links on cable discussion

Message sent.

Elk
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Re: some good links on cable discussion

Since Buddha missed the previous thread on thin cables, I bet there are others that similarly missed it. I am sure there would be interest if you started a thread addressing this topic.

Jan Vigne
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Re: some good links on cable discussion

There wasn't much interest when I first discussed it or any time since when the issue has come up. There were only snide comments made about how these cables can't work and stupid stuff about table radios and "SLAM". The naysayers had a field day without even trying the cables. Since the cables cost about $10 to make, I never understood why anyone would be so negative without even trying the cable. I admit they are not for everyone but you would think someone could try them before they bash them. I didn't expect any better from upd but I did from some of the other forum members. Oh, well, another lesson learned, another cable thread that went nowhere.

The original post was in a thread about thin cables. A member asked if anyone else was using thin cables and I responded in the affirmative. I don't remember which area of the forum it went in, probably in the Tweaks and Tips section, you'll have to search the archives.

I've sent the information to Buddha. If he wants to post the PM or make some cables and respond to their performance, he is free to do so. I'm just not that interested in the sort of response all the negative going members have to cable threads.

I thought you posted that you had tried a variation of these cables? Why not post your impressions if you want to start another cable thread.

Elk
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Re: some good links on cable discussion

DUPs gone so you won't need to worry about thread crapping by "slammers".

It's up to you, but it seems like a great way to start an affirmative discussion - especially as you have a lot of experience with them.

scottgardner
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Re: some good links on cable discussion


Quote:
...there here were only snide comments made about how these cables can't work and stupid stuff about table radios and "SLAM"...

Jan,

There are technical reasons why thin cables may work better for some people. For example thin cables would add a small amount of resistance, this resistance can effect things in a positive way.

Sunfire amps have two output types; "current" and "voltage". The current outputs are said to sound more tube like. The only technical difference between these is a small amount of additional resistance in the "current" output type.

This would suggest to me that thin cables may make a solid state amp sound (somewhat) similar to a tube amp. At least thats what Bob Carver seems to be saying.

If I didn't already have a Sunfire amp I would give it a try. Why not?

Also magnet wire is said to suffer less from "skin effect" and/or "proximity effect". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect

Elk
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Re: some good links on cable discussion

Interesting thinking, Scott.

I wish I had enough circuit and electrical knowledge to comment beyond this.

Maybe Steve will jump in.

scottgardner
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Re: some good links on cable discussion

Here is a link to a paper on toroidal step-up transformers for electrostatic loudspeakers. It also talks about using additional resistance in such a way that any

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