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caioferrari
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Small Integrated recommendation

Hi,
I have a pair of Klipsch RB51 as my stereo setup. I live in a very small apartment so it's enough for me in terms of SPL.

Right now I'm using a small professional amp and a 6 ch mixer from a professional sound system to power my speakers and I'd like to upgrade for a more proper setup. So, I'm looking for a small integrated amp.

I saw these amps:
Marantz PM5004
NAD 316BEE
Rotel RA10
Cambridge Azur 351

To be honest I have no intention to add a sub to my system, so, my priority is have the punchier amp from this list.

I'm hearing good reviews for the Marantz and the NAD. Since I do live in Brazil, is hard for me get both and test by myself. So, what do you guys recommend for me?

Catch22
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The NAD

That would be the star of your list.

commsysman
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Amplifier

I suggest the Music Hall 15.3 integrated amplifier, which is $550 at Audio Advisor and sold in many countries.

I think it is one of the best you can get for under $1000.

The NAD C326BEE is the same price and also quite nice.

Either one of those would be a good choice.

The Marantz PM6005 is another possibility.

The C316BEE is probably underpowered for most people, and you would be be somewhat limited in your choice of speakers if you ever wanted to upgrade to better speakers. The same applies to the Azur 351 and the Rotel RA-10 and 5004.

Don't limit yourself by getting an amplifier that may be too small. You won't have the current capability for the peaks that deliver that "punch" you want.

caioferrari
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Hi,

Hi,
For me all these amps are underpowered. A small bookshelf has at least 70W, so it should be the minimum power of an amp. But seems that the sound companies doesn't think like me. You have to spend a LOT of money to get an 75W amp, otherwise is a very common and ease (and cheap!) power to find on pro amps.

I'm looking for de NAD because they really insist that their products have an extra juice for the peaks of music (over 3dB) but I really don't know if it's true. According to audio.de test, the 316BEE has the same amount of power of the PM6005 and costs a lot less. It seems to be a good choice.

About the power increase of the bigger models, I ask about the degree of significance of the 1dB difference between a 50 and a 40W amp. Seems that is a lot of extra money for a little extra juice.

I'm only be afraid to spend a money on these amps and get no better sound than I have today with my little pro amp with 35W/ch

commsysman
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caioferrari wrote:
caioferrari wrote:

Hi,
For me all these amps are underpowered. A small bookshelf has at least 70W, so it should be the minimum power of an amp. But seems that the sound companies doesn't think like me. You have to spend a LOT of money to get an 75W amp, otherwise is a very common and ease (and cheap!) power to find on pro amps.

I'm looking for de NAD because they really insist that their products have an extra juice for the peaks of music (over 3dB) but I really don't know if it's true. According to audio.de test, the 316BEE has the same amount of power of the PM6005 and costs a lot less. It seems to be a good choice.

About the power increase of the bigger models, I ask about the degree of significance of the 1dB difference between a 50 and a 40W amp. Seems that is a lot of extra money for a little extra juice.

I'm only be afraid to spend a money on these amps and get no better sound than I have today with my little pro amp with 35W/ch

A small bookshelf speaker does not "have 70 watts". That makes no sense.

The way to evaluate speakers is by their sensitivity rating, which is given in db per watt.

In general, with a smaller amp like you are talking about, speakers should be chosen that have a rating of 89 db per watt or higher. This will allow the speaker to put out a fairly high sound level with 20 or 30 watts of power.

The power rating of a speaker is only the maximum power you can apply to it without damage.

caioferrari
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Yes, you're right. I'm just

Yes, you're right. I'm just used to say that a speaker has X Watts but it doesn't make sense.

So talking about the NAD I don't think that 10W is a big deal to afford the 326BEE... I'm just wondering which of those amps can deliver the biggest amount of punch for my speakers.

iosiP
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I would definitely go for a Yamaha A-S700

At 90 Wpc into 8 Ohm it will drive your speakers without any effort. Also, it has a "punchy" sound, which I understand you prefer.
Furthermore:
- most Marantz gear is slightly dark-sounding.
- Cambridge is musical but very "polite" (no foot-tapping available).
- No opinion about NAD and Rotel (never been a fan, but then, tastes are a highly subjective matter).

bierfeldt
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Talk about tastes being subjective

I despise Yamaha, find it is bright and fatiguing to listen too. That being said, how much power you need depends on how loud you listen to your music and how efficient your speakers are along with how large your room is and the distance you are from them while listening.

For instance, a speaker with an 86dB sensitivity with a 50w amp will max out at 96dB of volume 15 feet from the speaker. 170w of power into those same speakers will give you 101 dB of volume. I chose those numbers because I have two amps and that is the power rating for each. But, the point is, more than 3x as much power will get you an extra 5dB of volume. The majority of volume is generated with a very modest amount of power. So unless you have speakers that are super hard to drive, like to listen really loud or have a huge room, 40 to 50w is plenty of power.

As I said above, I despise Yamaha but lots of people like it. And in fairness, I have listened to Yamaha equipment mostly through Polk & Kef speakers. I bet it might sound darn good driving Wharfedale Jades. Alternatively, I have listened to Wharfedale Jades driven by NAD equipment and hated them. Listened to the same speaker powered by Bryston and almost loved them. What kind of speakers do you have? Or if you don't know the brand, can you describe the sound? Are they warm, neutral or bright. Besides a lack of punchy ness, what else do you like or dislike about the sound? I would hate to solve one issue only to create another.

commsysman
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Amplifiers

I agree strongly on the poor sound quality of Yamaha amplfiers, and their inability to drive many speakers without excessive distortion.

I would advise anyone against Yamaha and Onkyo amplifiers, because IMO they are the worst-sounding and very poorly designed.

The NAD C326BEE is probably the lowest-priced amp you can get readily in most countries that is going to do a good job.

The C316BEE may only be rated a little lower, but it will have a lot less of that "punch" you want.

iosiP
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bierfeldt wrote:
bierfeldt wrote:

What kind of speakers do you have? Or if you don't know the brand, can you describe the sound? Are they warm, neutral or bright. Besides a lack of punchy ness, what else do you like or dislike about the sound?

I have Raidho C3.0 with C3.1 tweeters. They are slightly on the warm side of neutral. I like the sound when driven with my 500Wpc Chord SPM-400.
And they are punchy enough, thank you!

caioferrari
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I have a pair of Klipsch RB51

I have a pair of Klipsch RB51. They are very powerful producing 92dB/W/m. It's a lot of sound.
I describe the sound of the Klipsch as a little bright.
To be honest I never been above the -18dB VU level of my 35W amp. So, power is not a problem for me.

I'm looking for a change of the "sound signature" of my system. These days I installed a hi pass filter tuned at 35Hz in my system. I made a lot of blind tests with a 30 musics and every time I found the bass punchier and well controlled with the filter On.
So, I really think that the amp can make my system better.

wkhanna
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Carnac the Magnificent sees.......

 photo 220px-Carnac_zps8813bbf0.jpg

Tubes in your future.....

bierfeldt
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My thinking

Klipsch tends toward brightness unquestionably. NAD is the warmest of the ones you mentioned and if that is the list of available options, I would likely go with the NAD 326BEE. It will give you the bass punchiness you are looking for and will help fight the touch of brightness you get with those speakers.

You also might consider looking at a tube amp as Wkhanna suggested but I can't think of one in the price range you are looking at that will deliver the power you need and will sound good. Somebody else may have a suggestion. The first one I like is a Jolida JD202BRC but it is twice as expensive as the equipment you are looking at and much harder to find. The ones I know in that price range either don't offer enough power (12w) or sound awful.

bierfeldt
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iosiP wrote:
iosiP wrote:

I have Raidho C3.0 with C3.1 tweeters. They are slightly on the warm side of neutral. I like the sound when driven with my 500Wpc Chord SPM-400.
And they are punchy enough, thank you![/quote]

iosiP - my apologies if I offended you with that question. It wasn't directed at you and I should have quoted our friend who started this topic. I just noticed the quote button and will be sure to make use of it in the future.

iosiP
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@bierfeldt, no offence here

You asked, I answered. There are many othings in life that are realy offensive, so getting offended over a question would only raise my blood pressure.

wkhanna
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Lazy Advisor....

Did not happen across your stated budget......
But my dyslexia is not getting better as i get older....

Any way, you might wish to check some of the offering from Yaqin.
I have heard good things from folks I know who have had V good experiences with them.

http://www.china-hifi-audio.com/en/yaqin-tube-amplifier-c-14/yaqin-mc-30...

Bill - on the Hill
Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
- just an “ON” switch, Please -

wkhanna
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wkhanna wrote:

please excuse the double post....

michael green
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another idea

Hi Caio

Your end result is what matters correct? In that case why don't you back up a little and look at this from a sound point of view rather than an equipment point of view. Instead of trying to tame a speaker that sounds like it may not be working in the room/speaker interfacing, you look into a speaker that likes your room, and then find the amp that mates with it.

Let me make a suggestion if I may. Invest in a pair of B652's from parts express http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-b652-6-1-2-2-way-bookshelf-spe... and find out what they can do instead of the Klipsch RB51. My feeling is that you have a room/speaker problem, and any amp that is suggested may not solve the problem, not really. If your hunting for a different signature than you need to realize that this particular speaker likes to sound one way and one way only. With this speaker you can make some changes but they really don't change a whole lot in their signatured sound. I've worked with Klipsch and they are clients of mine, and they will be the first to tell you that their speakers have the "Klipsch" sound. For those who like that sound they have found the right speaker but for those who are not getting along with their horned tweeter it will take some money to get away from it. If it were me I would put this little DA speaker in and listen to see if this flavor is more in line with your taste. You may or not stick with them but it will probably save you pushing your budget beyond where you want.

If you did find yourself liking the B652 this changes the playing field completely on amps to get, including some inexpensive Sherwoods which sound excellent with this speaker.

Being a pro guy myself I would give this a try. What amp and mixer are you using so I/we can get an idea for the sound you have now?

good luck

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

jgossman
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Klipsch

+1 Michael Green.

They just sound how they sound. In the right setting, that can be magnificent. And yes they sound great with tubes, usually.

I'd ditch them and go with a more neutral speaker.

Doctor Fine
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The Real Deal

The OP already HAS the Klipsch speakers. His stated problem is that he wants to "upgrade" just the preamp/amp part.

As he is currently using PA quality stuff (a mixer and a pro amp,a Behringer or an Alesis or something one assumes...)he doesn't realize it but his real problem is that what he is using to run his speakers is "lifeless" and HARD sounding.

NAD has pretty much established the benchmark against which all other cheap entry level integrateds must be measured. Why?

Simply put the NAD integrateds starting with the iconic 3020---offer more than a whiff of the high end when it comes to producing "life like, palpable timbrel correct sounds which seem REAL."

And it doesn't hurt that the little 3020 types also produce an actual real "soundstage" where instruments reside in a solid piece of space--just like "real" instruments do.

In this hobby you usually PAY A LOT to get something with more REAL in it.

Want 500 watts? But a cheap pro audio PA amp.

Want 500 watts that SOUNDS REAL???

Pay $20,000 for Levinson.

The NAD breaks most of the rules with their little 3020 type integrateds. Enjoy it if you can use it.

It really is amazing how good the tiny 3020 type NADS are. Read some reviews and pick the one with enough power as long as about 40 watts is enough for your needs...

Their bigger separates are also nice but then once you start spending more money there are LOTS of choices besides only NAD. At least above 40 watts there are a LOT of choices...

But all cost multiples of what these inexpensive Klipsches cost.

So in a word: NAD 3020 type...

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