You are here

Log in or register to post comments
drumguy48
drumguy48's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 2 months ago
Joined: Apr 1 2007 - 12:19am
Single strand cables

Hello All, Thought I'd see if there's any other super thin single strand cable fans out there? I use 30g varnish coated copper(1+ & 1-) for interconnects-app. 500mm in length and 2.5 metres for speaker cable- I just can't believe the massive increase in clarity, dynamics and..... BASS !
The "human hair" speaker runs replaced Python like monster cable and within an hour or so of hooking them up, the monster cable was banished to the spare room cupboard.
I have also made up a short (2.5m) guitar lead for a friend and got the same results more clarity and deeper, rounder bass
P.S. I got the original idea from Greg Weavers packing tape interconnects.
Anyone out there experimenting with SuperModel cables?
Michael...

Elk
Elk's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 1 week ago
Joined: Dec 26 2006 - 6:32am
Re: Single strand cables

I once built a pair of solid silver interconnects using skinny silver wire placed in Teflon tubes. The tubes were then carefully spaced and taped apart. I also tried braiding them.

They sounded absolutely dreadful either way.

Many on the Internet forum where I got the instructions reported that they were wonderful. Unfortunately they were yucky (technical term) in any system in which I tried them.

As every other interconnect or cable I have made has at least sounded good, I will not try skinny again.

But if they work for you and sound good, stick with them.

Jan Vigne
Jan Vigne's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Mar 18 2006 - 12:57pm
Re: Single strand cables

You bet! Dr. Gizmo is my reference for super thin cables.

I use 30 A.W/G. magnet wire from RS with their solderless RCA's, no audio jewelry for this wire - it only screws with the sound. Bare wire connections wherever possible. I use a single wire for the CD player running to the signal hot (center pin) of the RCA and run a separate ground wire from the chassis of the CD player to the ground lug of the pre amplifier. The phono requires both + and - legs so there are four conductors in that ic. The wires are held apart by 4" paper masking tape (low dielectric constant) to maintain a consistent inductance and capacitance, which are both very low in this widely spaced arrangement without a shield. Since there are no shields on these ic's, cable dressing is important to minimize any AC noise the cable might pick up in a typical system. I have no problem in Dallas with RF pick up on the unshielded ic's though they are not a good choice for long runs between the pre amp and the monoblocks 12' away.

My system was not typical of most (transformer coupled tubes and 15 Ohm LS3/5a's) when I made the switch to the 30 guage for speaker cable but I convinced a friend to try it on his 375 watt Carver solid state amplifier with Gallo speakers. We're both convinced this is the way to go. The magnet wire sells for less than $5 a package with enough wire to make dozens of ic's and speaker cables. The entire ic and speaker cable costs under $5 when you piece out the parts used. My friend has discarded over $2k worth of cables to run these DIY sets. He keeps shaking his head and talking about how difficult it was to remove the "good" stuff and how much happier he is with the new stuff. He recently ordered some 28 A.W.G. fine silver wire and has replaced his magnet wire speaker cables with this which he finds to have made a nice but subtle improvement.

No one else believes this works. They all want at least 10 A.W.G. cables from their amp to speakers and bulky RCA's behind their gear. They laugh when we mention what we've done. That's fine, we know what we hear and we've got money in our pockets for music.

Glad to hear others are trying this route and finding the music in their discs.

http://forum.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/5/342576.html

drumguy48
drumguy48's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 2 months ago
Joined: Apr 1 2007 - 12:19am
Re: Single strand cables

Hi Jan, I'm glad to hear that I'm not imagining the improved sound! I make my ICs with 12mm wide 3M Magic Tape (opaque)-lay down a length,sticky side up, then stretch the 30g weighted with lead fishing weights on each end, then lay down another strip of tape on the top. The lead weights keep the strands nicely tensioned and parallel while I'm laying down the top strip. I use 19mm tape for speaker runs-also as internal wiring in speaker cabinets.-It's also a piece of cake to solder.

Thanks, Michael...

ethanwiner
ethanwiner's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Sep 1 2005 - 2:26pm
Re: Single strand cables


Quote:
Thought I'd see if there's any other super thin single strand cable fans out there? I use 30g varnish coated copper(1+ & 1-) for interconnects-app. 500mm in length and 2.5 metres for speaker cable- I just can't believe the massive increase in clarity, dynamics and..... BASS !


Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but are you guys talking about Litz wire that uses many thin wires, each individually insulated, having a total resistance equal to much thicker wire? Or do you mean using a single strand of 30 gauge wire as speaker cable?

--Ethan

Elk
Elk's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 1 week ago
Joined: Dec 26 2006 - 6:32am
Re: Single strand cables

Hi, Ethan. They are using a single strand of fine gauge wire.

I tried it with absolutely no problems, no melted or even warm wires. Unfortunately they sounded dreadful in my system whether used as interconnects or speaker cable.

There are a number of people that have had great success with thin gauge wire and are delighted with the sound. Thus, I tried it. While it didn't work for me, it does for others.

Electricity is weird.

ethanwiner
ethanwiner's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Sep 1 2005 - 2:26pm
Re: Single strand cables


Quote:
They are using a single strand of fine gauge wire.


I was afraid of that.

A much better / simpler approach to obtain the sound of low speaker damping is to get a 10 Ohm variable power resistor. Then you can tweak the resistance value to sonic perfection.


Quote:
I tried it with absolutely no problems, no melted or even warm wires. Unfortunately they sounded dreadful in my system whether used as interconnects or speaker cable.


I can imagine the sound would be less harsh, noticeably softer (you have to raise the volume more to get the same level), and maybe a bit boomy. I can't see why using really thin wire is different than just adjusting an EQ a few dB here and there.


Quote:
Electricity is weird.


Actually, electricity is understood very well. What's weird sometimes to me is people's preferences. But who am I to say what someone else should prefer? I try to stick to the facts only, and let others argue about the subjective stuff.

--Ethan

Jan Vigne
Jan Vigne's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Mar 18 2006 - 12:57pm
Re: Single strand cables
ethanwiner
ethanwiner's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Sep 1 2005 - 2:26pm
Re: Single strand cables


Quote:
http://www.meta-gizmo.com/Tri/Dancing/DrG_silverT.html


This appears to be a case of confusing sounding different with sounding better.

--Ethan

Jan Vigne
Jan Vigne's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Mar 18 2006 - 12:57pm
Re: Single strand cables

Yes, I linked to that article earlier in the thread, I guess you missed it. I'm not sure why you would say Dr. Gizmo could mistake different for better. I never met the man and possibly someone here at Stereophile who knew him well can elucidate his ideas regarding musicality, an ideology he held dear and above equipment alone. The Stereophile article I also included as a link in the same post suggested JA could not follow Gizmo on his quest for triode bliss. That does not diminish Gizmo's value to the industry and the hobby.

http://www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/409/index.html

OK, JA is not promoting the same approach to audio as Gizmo and I am not advocating the LaSabre approach to audio that dup enjoys. But Gizmo was, and still is, respected for his knowledge and love of music. He may have marched to a different drummer but he knew when the drum sounded lousy.

I doubt few Westerners could follow Gizmo on his journey, his leadership is an acquired taste just as the components he admired are out of the mainstream. But many educated Eastern ears, the ones who revived SET's and paper in oil capacitors, led Gizmo through his journey. The underworld of back loaded horns, single drivers, triodes, and direct drive (nay, rim drive) tables held a facination for Gizmo that few Western ears cared to acknowledge or even investigate.

I'm no conspiracy theorist when it comes to audio but I know what I like and what sounds like live music to me. I can't remember the last time a high end shop's systems impessed me as being capable of playing music (of course, that has much to do with the dearth of high end audio in America's seventh largest city).

But I seriously doubt anyone who knew him or folowed his writings could conclude Gizmo didn't know what was, and was not, musical when he heard it. What he preferred may have been different than the paid for by advertisers, mainstream, subscription audio press but I am sure Gizmo knew the distinction between different and better. The question would be; how many of us can say the same?

Jan Vigne
Jan Vigne's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Mar 18 2006 - 12:57pm
Re: Single strand cables

Make believe you aren't limited to what the American audio press reviews and your local shop carries in stock.

http://www.sixmoons.com/audioreviews/ocellia/calliope.html

CECE
CECE's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Sep 17 2005 - 8:16am
Re: Single strand cables

Alnico magnets have been replaced by modern, much better materials. Material science has moved forward. That's why tiny motors can have some incredible torque with low voltages. Speaker materials have come a long way. But still PHYSICS can't be changed. Drivers need SIZE to move air, these little pipsqueaks ain't gonna do it. No matter how much verbage and pictures of castles are behind it. Just another tiny speaker, with lotsa verbage. If this is your idea of LIVE, I think you need a hearing test. LIVE is not just heard it's felt....tiny drivers with lotsa distortion ain't what it's about. Neither is 30 gauge current strnagling wires...So your reference flawed. Do you think candles are better lighting than modern electric lamps? Deficient amplifiers, tiny guage wires, tiny speakers with insufficient drivers, all add up to some tiny sound, and hardly the lifelike effect. Have you heard any LIVE drums or Les Paul guitars lately? 5" drivers ain't bring it into your house, it can't, IMPOSSIBLE. Heard any live piano at room filling levels, tiny speakers ain't doing it in the house, neither are small watt amps.

drumguy48
drumguy48's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 2 months ago
Joined: Apr 1 2007 - 12:19am
Re: Single strand cables

I think we're chasing two different goals here,Dup. What I'm looking for(or listening for)is the lowest possible noise floor,so when the music goes quiet, the blackness of the silence just draws you in and you can more clearly hear every little squeak and rattle that occurred at the time of recording.It sounds like you want blow your hair back,bleeding eardrum live concert experience.
Michael..

CECE
CECE's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Sep 17 2005 - 8:16am
Re: Single strand cables

Nope, between silence and the slam, that's the beauty of DYNAIMCS. DSD/SACD gives it, then the amps and speakers deliver it. Even on 45 year old recordings....I can hear Mick Jaeger and crew (Rolling Stones) on their SACD collection. Stuff in the background, can be heard, not heard on the CD versions. 30 guage wire is not gonna do anything but restrict, confine, destroy what a good amp can do. 30 ga. is not speaker wire, it's almost phono cartridge leads. SACD,great speakers, great amps/preamps...give it all...the black, background, or whatever creative writings you wanna call it, then teh SLAM of the full band....that ain't from wires, it's from teh recordings, the amps, the speakers. Has been for decades, still is. How come 40+ year old recordings sound so great, cus they did. Even old analog recorders used in the studios where so ahead of the playback equipment. Now the playback equipment has improved so much, you hear the tapes, DSD/SACD does it. Not 30 guage wires....realize what matters, reality based stuff. Lotsa watts, that drive lotsa speakers, with control and power, and no distortion. DSD/SACD with it's superior playback, let it all work. 30 ga. wire is NOT good for speaker wires.

drumguy48
drumguy48's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 2 months ago
Joined: Apr 1 2007 - 12:19am
Re: Single strand cables

Thanks for your much calmer post, Dup, the difference is that I have heard the improvement of the 30G over the monster cable on my system where as your opinion is based purely on theory without the listening experience-I still don't like the look of my cables-hell-at the right angle from my listening chair they almost disappear from view-but s**t-they sound sweet!

Jan Vigne
Jan Vigne's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Mar 18 2006 - 12:57pm
Re: Single strand cables


Quote:
Alnico magnets have been replaced by modern, much better materials. Material science has moved forward.

Sure has. Now we have throw away products. Better living through chemistry and outsourcing to third world countries. Stop being a dummy, dup.


Quote:
Drivers need SIZE to move air, these little pipsqueaks ain't gonna do it.

What little pipsqueaks? You don't even know what speakers drumguy and I are using. If you do, what are they?

(Pssst, my speakers are almost 6' tall. How short are your puny little runts?)


Quote:
Have you heard any LIVE drums or Les Paul guitars lately? ... Heard any live piano at room filling levels,

Yes, I told you just two days ago. I can hear better than you.


Quote:
5" drivers ain't bring it into your house, it can't, IMPOSSIBLE.

I think everyone knows how wrong you are about these things, dup. There's no need to discuss this. Why don't you say something else. You've posted, what, fifty posts here saying this can't work. OK, for you it can't. For us it does. Now, if you have something to actually contribute, do so. Otherwise, stop saying the same thing over and over. Oh, I'm sorry, if you didn't say the same thing over and over, you'd have nothing to say; would you?


Quote:
Lotsa watts, that drive lotsa speakers,

dupfact #3. As helpful as all the other dupfacts. And as often repeated.

Elk
Elk's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 1 week ago
Joined: Dec 26 2006 - 6:32am
Re: Single strand cables


Quote:
Alnico magnets have been replaced by modern, much better materials.


Careful DUP, your ignorance is showing. Alnico magnets, while they have been around for a long time, are excellent. For example, they are extremely strong - bettered only by rare earth magnets in this regard - and they possess wonderful operating characteristics such as excellent temperature stability. They are also quiet - thus most guitar pickups use them. Many excellent speakers incorporate alnico magnets.

Yes there are newer and cheaper magnets, but they are also not as good.

Newer isn't necessarily better; just newer.

Jan Vigne
Jan Vigne's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Mar 18 2006 - 12:57pm
Re: Single strand cables

This thread was split after Stephen moved a few of dup's posts to the dea zone and it is quite a mess at the moment. In the other portion of the thread, which Stephen has locked, he explained the confusion, adding, "This is why it's important, I think, to ignore offensive posts, and to direct responses to the appropriate poster."

Gee, Stephen, I would have thought that's why it's important, I think, to not create offensive posts and to direct responses to the actual topic matter. You know, not rant on about how many watts you have and how you need SLAM to hear anything.

I could be wrong.

I'm not driving the LaSabre.

smejias
smejias's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 years 10 months ago
Joined: Aug 25 2005 - 10:29am
Re: Single strand cables


Quote:
Gee, Stephen, I would have thought that's why it's important, I think, to not create offensive posts and to direct responses to the actual topic matter. You know, not rant on about how many watts you have and how you need SLAM to hear anything.

Yes, that's true, too. It's most important to not make offensive posts and to keep matters concerning the topic at hand.

If the current state of this thread is upsetting to anyone who would like to discuss "single strand cables," please feel free to start a new thread.

Thanks.

CECE
CECE's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Sep 17 2005 - 8:16am
Re: Single strand cables

I thought teh standard was efficeincy, according to the slant on this post. Newer magnets ahve been developed that have obsoleted the originals. Cheaper better, more EFFICIENT, being stuck on OLd is better sure is geeting OLD. Old tube amps with 3% distortion, 12 dmping factor, horn PA speakers for home use (Klipsch) old old old. 21st century, things have improved, become more efficient, and cheaper, yeah, just cus it costs less, don't mean it ain't better. You think a 1960 Buick is better than a current year car? You are really out of it. Speakers have improved dramaitcally with new materials and magnets, get out of teh past....evolve already. 80W tube amps with terminal strips is not necessarily "better" cus it OLD. It's just..........OLD. Still using your 1963 refrigerator? Maybe you even have carbon filament lamps too? eeessshhhh.

CECE
CECE's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Sep 17 2005 - 8:16am
Re: Single strand cables

Nope, had thinner wire on high current needs on speakers, 18ga, really restristed the things...i ain't talking bout' putting 10GA on a .5A CD player either, that's just as dopey. Wire guage to the need of teh ckts. That's why they have different guages. My speakaers use lotsa current, teh amps deliver lotsa current, thus thicker guage, superior sound, you know the saying better ingredients, better sound....Maybe you think Dominos is actually PIZZA?

Elk
Elk's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 1 week ago
Joined: Dec 26 2006 - 6:32am
Re: Single strand cables


Quote:
I thought teh standard was efficeincy, according to the slant on this post. Newer magnets ahve been developed that have obsoleted the originals. Cheaper better, more EFFICIENT, being stuck on OLd is better sure is geeting OLD.


Good design is knowing the best parts to use for a given purpose; sometimes the newest is best, sometimes an older design is best. Unless one is a collector or historian, old for old's sake is silly.

Alnico magnets, while commercially originally developed in the '30's, remain superb in all respects. Magnets made of rare earth metals can be stronger, but they are also more expensive. They can also be less thermally stable, etc. Often they are the best to use and are commonly used in excellent speakers, as well as many guitars amps and guitar pick-ups.

In contrast, ceramic magnets are much newer, cheaper and are easier to work with. While used in computer speakers and other inexpensive sound applications we don't want them in our audio systems. Newer doesn't necessarily mean better.

It may well be that in certain applications thinner gauge interconnects are indeed better. Thin speaker cables may also be better in some circumstances. This hobby is full of surprises. Instead of rejecting them out of hand we should learn from them. Not only is this the method of science, it's more fun!

So rather than engaging in insulting rants, do you have anything productive to add to the discussion? Cyclebrain provided some wonderful discussion fodder based on his education and training. He also fully and forcefully expressed himself respectfully. Can you offer anything similar?

Think of it as a personal challenge! See if you can engage in civil on-topic discourse.

Jan Vigne
Jan Vigne's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Mar 18 2006 - 12:57pm
Re: Single strand cables


Quote:
... that's just as dopey.

The extent of civilized discourse from dup.


Quote:
Wire guage to the need of teh ckts.

While making heads or tails out of that is difficult, I assume you mean the cable gauge should match the internal wire gauge. OK, my amp is wired internally with thin gauge cable. My amp doesn't produce lots of current and my speakers don't suck current. One compliments the other and telling me it doesn't - again - isn't proving anything. Find something new to rant about, dup.

The internal wiring in my amps is point to point. No circuit boards. The desireable type of wiring in audio. Not what you have, dup, so I'm sure you'll find it lacking in some way. Craftsmanship and quality are not two virtues you think about. Why not just run some printed circuits from your amps to your speakers? A litle epoxy and tin? That would be what's inside your amps; isn't it? You know, "Wire guage to the need of teh ckts" Tell me again how tin sounds.


Quote:
My speakaers use lotsa current, teh amps deliver lotsa current, thus thicker guage, superior sound ...

I'm sorry; what?!

As with your ideas regarding alnico magnets, tubes, cables, etc. you are so far off base this warrants no discussion. I don't think you can hear group delay, phase distortion, comb filtering, time misalignment, response errors or a dozen other problems inherent in your system that are slapping you in the face. Your speakers suck power because so much of it goes up in the air as heat wasted by the numerous crossover components in your speakers. You have acoustic phase distortions that are caused by the multiple drivers connected through numerous capacitors and inductors. You intentionally chose speakers that required stupid-big amplifiers. How smart is that? There is enough group delay in your system to become a voting block. Comb filtering? I don't know where to begin.

There is no way honest to goodness slam is possible with this system. You hear 20% distrotion from your speakers and think that's slam. How many output devices are in your amplifiers? Even the newest reader to Stereophile has seen ST talk about how sweet amplifiers sound when there is a single pair of outputs per channel. But "sweet" is not something you would know either. Time alignment? It's as mysterious to you as "tuneful". I get tired of asking how much willfull ignorance you care to display. And display and display over and over.

There's not much to say that can be meaningful here. Drumguy knows what he hears. Elk has made an attempt to work through your rants. dup, if you have nothing more to say in a civilized manner that might possibly make sense, I'll go listen to some music. You're wasting my time, dup.

CECE
CECE's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Sep 17 2005 - 8:16am
Re: Single strand cables

Actually there AIN'T no DISTORTION..see REVIEW. Actually the speakes are extremely low in distortions. Which is one of the design golas of teh maker. He succeded. Thus teh need for multiple drivers to move air, for lifelike effects. Point-Point wiring is superior? For who, the guys selling teh wire? Another audiophile myth. Have you seen how these amps are constructed? nope, probably not.
When I say the wire guage suited to the ckt/purpose, I don't mean if the inner wiring is this or that, that defines the speaker cords...eeesshhhhh. If you have speakers that need current, and most do, ain't heard any that don't cus the voice coils sure do. Ain't you teh one that talks of "synergy" duh, yeah, when ya have speakers capable of lifelike reproduction, they needs watts..so ya hook up amps that provide it....gee, I am an audiophile, I have synergy...look at meeeeeeee. Extremely low inaudible distortions, cus more drivers move air with less effort. Trying to make one driver do it all, ain't happening. can't not if you want lifelike un distorted reproduction. Goes back to my original plan, bloated, underdamped, restricted, contrsticed reproduction is not what it's all about.
You still ain't told me WHAT speakers are you using hooked up to the McIntosh....you gots me confused...they are big, they are small, they are single driver, you is all over teh place...you talking ideas out of your head, based on other people's thoughts? Or are you speaking of what you listen too? EEEESSSHHH.
What speakers are you using? If the McIntosh's are 80W in mono, how much do you think is getting to the speaker, with that tiny wire. Like trying to fill a swiming pool with a teaspoon, rather than a fire hyrdrant. That doesn't mean ya use a 12 ga cord to supply a Cd player either, that's just as dopey. Use what the ckt requires...that's what I mean. And yes, wasted power in the form of HEAT is bad.....all amps waste energy in the form of heat...not in teh crossovers only, but in teh amps, pre amps everything. But improved transformers etc work on improving that also.

CECE
CECE's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Sep 17 2005 - 8:16am
Re: Single strand cables

Point-point is superiror? Ya gotta explain this to me. No ckt boards? How does this effect what you can hear? Yup, those old DuMonts and Philcos sure sounded great didn't they, comapred to todays 21st century designs.....You're kidding right? How does more wires sound better than a ckt board? cus' you use less wire, (thinner) on your speakers that you say sound better, but in teh amp...more wire is better? I sure am getting confused now. What pre amp do you sue what speakers...

Jan Vigne
Jan Vigne's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Mar 18 2006 - 12:57pm
Re: Single strand cables


Quote:
you gots me confused

T'weren't I that got you there, dup.

Jan Vigne
Jan Vigne's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Mar 18 2006 - 12:57pm
Re: Single strand cables

Dup, you want lots of copper in your speaker cables to carry current. Copper does well at that task. How much copper is in the traces of your amp's circuit boards? What are the traces made from? How thick are the actual traces that move your precious current around your amplifier? Equivalent to a 10 A.W.G. speaker cable? If not, how does the amp move current from the power supply to the outputs?

Jan Vigne
Jan Vigne's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Mar 18 2006 - 12:57pm
Re: Single strand cables

This is like a Harold Pinter play.

Long pause ...

dup, while you're checking your amp's circuit boards, check the ones in your speaker's crossovers and whether the crossover's inductors are 10-12 A.W.G. Of course, you'd want the leads to the caps and resistors to be the same or else you've pretty much wasted the 10 gauge from the amp to the speaker connections if the signal has to run through 26 A.W.G. leads. And you'd want those leads to be pure copper also. The leads to the driver's voice coil from the connection points at the back of the driver should also be 10-12 A.W.G. That would be important if you want to use all that current. And I guess you should find out what gauge wire is in the voice ciol and whether it's copper or aluminum.

Let me know.

CECE
CECE's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Sep 17 2005 - 8:16am
Re: Single strand cables

Watt speaker and preamp are you using? answer teh question. Why is point-point wiring better? Yes the wires that go to the output bananna plugs for teh speakers are thick....why is point to point wiring better, and why can you hear the difference? The mfg of this stuff says to start out with 18-16 ga for 8 OHM speakers, lrager for 4ohm, and runs a bit longer....not some of teh absurditys like 4-6 or some other nonesen, and not teh dopey stiff stuff, WIRE, plain and simple WIRE of the correct guage for 4 Ohm speakers that use current to make it happen. The wires inside the speakers are 12 guage actually, yupper.....going to each driver. No magic connectors, just some solid push on terminals without magical names or images of exotic animals or mountains, push on terminals, not audio grade either, terminals. What speakers are you using, what pre amp?

Elk
Elk's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 1 week ago
Joined: Dec 26 2006 - 6:32am
Re: Single strand cables


Quote:
This is like a Harold Pinter play.
Long pause ...


An impressive, and amusing, literary reference.

Well done!

Now to determine whether this is a "pause" or a "silence" . . .

Jan Vigne
Jan Vigne's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Mar 18 2006 - 12:57pm
Re: Single strand cables

dup, you've ignored my questions while demanding I answer yours. What difference does it make what pre amp I'm using? It's not driving the speakers. Do you just want to insult my pre amp also? My pre amp is better than yours, that's all that counts. It's better 'cause I can hear better.

Point to point wiring is better than circuit traces because they're all copper for one thing. Are your circuit board traces all copper? answer teh quesion! PtP wiring is better because it is generally more cleanly laid out and separates the signal from the ground plane. Do your circuit traces do that? Probably not. PtP is better because it uses a better dielectric suited to the requirements of the circuit, Teflon in the case of my amps - changed when I redid the caps, so don't go wondering how Teflon got in a 45 year old amp. What dielectric do your traces have? Paste? PtP wiring is better because it maintains the correct gauge of cable used for each circuit requirement. Do your circuit board traces vary in thickness? You said " ... the wires that go to the output bananna plugs for teh speakers are thick ... " I didn't ask about the wires that lead away from the circuit board, dup, and you know that. It's amazing how dumb you can get when the circumstances aren't in your favor.

What "gauge" are the traces on your main circuit boards? How about the traces from the output transistors to the "thick cables"? Are they as thick as the cable? probably not. They're only about a centimeter thick on the board, you know. Are they all copper? You need lots of copper to get current through to the speakers, yaknow! If they aren't all copper, what else is in the trace? What other metals? What about the circuit boards in your speakers? All the drivers share the same ground plane on one circuit board? That's not good, dup. Lots of crosstalk between drivers. Your tweeters are driving your woofers, dup! All the components in the crossover have nice, thick 10 gauge leads? All copper leads? 10 gauge copper leads on those capacitors? All how many? If not, you're loosing as much current through those leads as you are through that little skinny fuse. Nobody with any kind of hearing uses fuses in their speakers, dup. 10 A.W.G. cables that feed to a fuse?! You might as well run 30 A.W.G. cables from the amp to the speakers. Sheesh! Push on connectors? Do you disconnect them every six months to clean the oxidation off the contacts? The speakers have 10 gauge wire from the push on connector to the voice coil? That must really hinder movement of the driver to have to haul 10 gauge cable back and forth. No wonder your speakers have such low distortion, they can't move.

All these things that are wrong with your stuff, dup! Don't you wish now you were an audiophile so you'd know not to do these things? I'm sorry, dup, you're too deluded to know what to believe.

Check back on those traces and let me know what metals are on the board. Like I said, want to tell me again how good tin sounds?

Jan Vigne
Jan Vigne's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Mar 18 2006 - 12:57pm
Re: Single strand cables

Ya'know, dup, if I were you - oh, what a thought!, I would be suckin' up to Elk here. It sounds like he has the experience to tell you what's on your circuit boards - and what's not - and why they suck. Did I mention PtP has lower parts count, which is always good, particularly in speakers and amps and ... oh, right ... you got lots of stuff in your speakers, that's why they don't sound good. How 'bout better reliability of the connection without circuit boards and some machine soldering everything at once. Your amp was soldered by a machine, dup! You put some poor disabled vet out of a job! That's terrible!!!

Unless, of course, your amp uses those weenie-teenie IC's. Oh, Lord, don't tell me your amp uses IC's?! Course, with IC's in your amp, it doesn't matter if you have circuit boards. The sound is gonna suck anyway. I guess it doesn't matter that you got tin and paste in your amp either, it already sucks. And in your speakers too! They suck! And all that current running through those 26 gauge capacitor leads! Geeez!

I'm surprised someone with hearing like your's hasn't noticed before now. What are ya? Deaf!?

CECE
CECE's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Sep 17 2005 - 8:16am
Re: Single strand cables

Dat's FUNNY. You have recited all the audiophile babble. too bad you need to learn about electrical design and what matters. But good try. yup, those IC's sound so bad in those DSD/SACD players recorders. Wouldn't it be great to have an all tube room size DSD recorder player, with Point - point wiring...now that would be heaven wouldn't it?
Actually i do hear better than you,.
What speakers are you using, what pre amp, I just wanna get a sense of what you are hearing that you can discern the differences in PTFE and the old original wiring. The traces on teh ckt boards are made from the correct material for it's purpose. Of course the ground plane in both the amp and pre amp are optimized for it's function. Larger, and layed out correctly. Not just arbitrarily made larger to impress the unknowing.
What speakers are you using and pre amp that you can hear an IC ckt versus individual components in the amp. The driver boards in my amp don't handle heavy current. Where the current is heavy, the wire size is the correct guage. Like what goes to teh speaker posts, etc. Just arbitraily making things to audiophile nonsense just for the claim of something is not what good electrical design is about. Heavy current needs copper. Not between to small signal components. You know the audiophile rant, lets put 10 guage line cord on a 20W power supply on a CD player, oh it sounds better now. What speakers are you using, what pre amp? I'm sure they are fine, McIntosh pre amp? Even they moved into 21st century with ckt boards and IC's ya know.

Jan Vigne
Jan Vigne's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Mar 18 2006 - 12:57pm
Re: Single strand cables

Audiophile "blather" counts when you want good sound. Obviously you don't care if you have good sound. Otherwise you would have known what's inside your amp and speakers, not just made up an answer to make yourself look better than you are. Want to try again? Or, would you rather stick with uneducated blather? What a joke! And you want to tell everyone what sounds good. Teehee, that's funny.

You guessed at what's inside your amplifier and speakers. Now guess what speakers and pre amp I use. You won't have a clue what I can hear no matter what I'm using.

Your references to IC's inside disc players is inane when you conclude that certain circuits do not require current. Get real, dup.

I think this thread has reached an end unless you have something of value to say, which would be unusual. You've got crappy circuits, wiring and signal wasting devices inside your amp and speakers and crap would come out if only that 10 gauge wire to the voice coil didn't stop the drivers from moving. Low distortion my Aunt Fanny! What's the matter? You deaf?!

RGibran
RGibran's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 17 hours ago
Joined: Oct 11 2005 - 5:50pm
Re: My Stereo Is Better Than Yours?

C'mon you two...Knock it off already!

You've both made your point. Move on.

What WAS an interesting topic has been butchered by the BOTH of you.

Either of you ever heard of "The High Road"?

RG

Jan Vigne
Jan Vigne's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Mar 18 2006 - 12:57pm
Re: My Stereo Is Better Than Yours?

Just a little, "what's good for the goose ... ", rgibran.

I would welcome a return to the original topic. Anything to say?

RGibran
RGibran's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 17 hours ago
Joined: Oct 11 2005 - 5:50pm
Re: Single strand cables

Jan, as stated, I found this an interesting topic, not in the sense of

Jan Vigne
Jan Vigne's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Mar 18 2006 - 12:57pm
Re: Single strand cables

To begin with, at the present time my system doesn't move. The cables are somewhat fragile and I don't recommend them for anyone who is fanatical about cleaning RCA's. However, look at drumguy's post where his cable construction is displayed. In the case of the ic's the tape that covers the 30 A.W.G. wire is run into the RCA. A piece of tape or shrink wrap then holds the incoming tape in place from the outside of the RCA sleeve. The length of the cable is inside a piece of tape, clear packing tape in drumguy's cables and 4" wide blue masking tape in my own system. They are anything but invisible in my system. They are very flexible which counts alot to me. The tape lays flat on the floor for my speaker cables, so the dogs have no more problem getting over or around this cable than they did any other I've used. I find no difference between this cable and any other when it comes to having to ocassionally move them for cleaning.

I haven't tried the "Anti-cables". This is definitely a case of, "I'm not going to pay you $90 for $2 worth of product." I've tried the 18 A.W.G. wire that also comes in the RS magnet wire package. While sturdier in construction that the 30 gauge, I find my tastes run to thinner cables. There aren't large differences but as the cable grows in gauge, I tend to like it less. The best description I have for the thinner cables is more cohesive and quicker. There is more space around individual instruments with the thinner cables.

Remember, my system is not typical of most Stereophile readers and I am not suggesting everyone will like this cable. It works for me in what is a fairly simple system as far as speaker impedance/load and damping requirements are concerned.

drumguy48
drumguy48's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 2 months ago
Joined: Apr 1 2007 - 12:19am
Re: Single strand cables

Hello All,I agree with Jan re the fragility of the cables-I abandoned bare wire connections in favour of solder type banana plugs after several frustrating breaks-slight sound degradation in favour of convenience.No problems with ICs which as described by Jan (pic in DIY gallery)are reinforced in several ways-that being said though-I am now (app.6 months)using same wire/tape construction with CU Eichmann Bullet Plugs-with no reinforcement at all just the solder joint-no dramas at all.
Jan I dip the wire into hot solder pot to remove varnish-I have big hands and slightly dodgy eyesight and scraping with utility knife drove me crazy.
As with Jan, I would also describe the sound as fast-like skating over the top of ice as opposed to trudging thru ankle deep mud!
Michael..

Jan Vigne
Jan Vigne's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Mar 18 2006 - 12:57pm
Re: Single strand cables


Quote:
Jan I dip the wire into hot solder pot to remove varnish-I have big hands and slightly dodgy eyesight and scraping with utility knife drove me crazy.

A good hot soldering iron will melt the lacquer also. But I have no problem with a sharp blade. The dielectric is so thin it takes very little pressure to remove the unwanted material. The most difficult thing for me with the 30 gauge cable is seeing when the lacquer has been removed. Geez, that wire's skinny!

drumguy48
drumguy48's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 2 months ago
Joined: Apr 1 2007 - 12:19am
Re: Single strand cables

Yeah, I tried the soldering iron method the 1st dozen or so times but I found it cut a groove in the tip-would get a little pool of solder on tip then drag wire slowly thru it-solder pot solved the problem and decreased production time-at the time I advertised them on Ebay-not a single enquiry!-will have to make my fortune some other way!!!
In the near future may try the Mapleshade 8' twisted pair speaker cables-at $US85 reasonable outlay to compare with my homemades.

Jan Vigne
Jan Vigne's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Mar 18 2006 - 12:57pm
Re: Single strand cables

I asked a while back, possibly in the portion of the thread that is not connected to this, what owners of high end cables thought made the difference between their cables and what they didn't buy or what they had previously owned. There were no replies to the question. I don't know if that means most of you don't own high end cables, you don't know what makes them different or you just don't want to deal with someone telling you what you hear can't be so. Whatever! Consider this.

The RS magnet wire, no matter which gauge you decide to try, has no plastics based or synthetic derivatives as a dielectric. The ultrathin lacquer "insulation" is sufficient to keep bare conductors from touching if minimal care is exercised. The plastic tape or paper masking tape employed by drumguy and in my cables is predominantly for ease of handling and to keep the very thin cables visible to anyone who has to walk over them. It serves no real dielectric function beyond that of the already in place lacquer. If you've read of dielectric constant in cable blurbs, these cables should have no problem in that regard. Though not quite as perfect as air, the lacquer dielectric is as close as possible without massive expenditures.

I won't compare these cables to $3-5k Nordost but consider the construction of their top cables. If I understand the manner in which Nordost constructs a cable such as the Vahalla, the ultrathin conductors are wrapped in a concentric Teflon monofilament to provide a space between the actual signal carrying conductor and neutral/earth legs and the plastics based dielectric. While not perfect, the Nordost cable strives for an air dielectric around its thin conductors.

Looking at the Eichmann Bullet plugs, I will not directly compare a $100 plug to the $4 RS solderless RCA's but there are similarities. Much has been made of the minimal construction of the Eichmann's and the effect this lack of material has on eddy currents. (The image on the top left is the Eichmann plug; http://www.tnt-audio.com/accessories/bullet_vs_nextgen_e.html) Eichmann points to their findings that many of the large, gold plated RCA's that qualify as audio jewelry do more to damage the signal than help.

Folks, it don't get much more minimal than the RS right angle solderless RCA's. http://www.radioshack.com/product/index....amp;tab=summary

Minimal magnetic interaction, low capacitance, low inductance, low eddy currents, minimal dielectric constant, positive bare wire or screw type connections rather than encasing the signal in 98% tin/lead solder are the technical benefits of these cables. The 18 A.W.G. cable is no thinner than the leads on the caps and resistors in your speakers and amplifier. The 26 gauge cable is no thinner than many high end interconenct conductors. If your amplifier and speaker use printed circuit boards, consider your maximum current carrying ability due to the actual gauge of the traces.

Anyone other than the usual naysayer care to comment?

drumguy48
drumguy48's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 2 months ago
Joined: Apr 1 2007 - 12:19am
Re: Single strand cables

Jan,for your interest, have just posted a pic of my system in Galleries-Home Audio systems
Michael..

Elk
Elk's picture
Offline
Last seen: 5 months 1 week ago
Joined: Dec 26 2006 - 6:32am
Re: Single strand cables

The little guys are delicate, but are not fragile. If you are careful they really are not difficult to deal with. You can't treat them like normal interconnects or cables and need to support them by their terminations.

Jan Vigne
Jan Vigne's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Mar 18 2006 - 12:57pm
Re: Single strand cables

Pull on the plug, not the cable. An important lesson we all should have learned by now.

wkhanna
wkhanna's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 5 min ago
Joined: Jul 13 2007 - 1:46pm
Re: Single strand cables


Quote:
I asked a while back, possibly in the portion of the thread that is not connected to this, what owners of high end cables thought made the difference between their cables and what they didn't buy or what they had previously owned.

About six or so months ago, I purchased two sets of CatCable

wkhanna
wkhanna's picture
Offline
Last seen: 3 hours 5 min ago
Joined: Jul 13 2007 - 1:46pm
Re: Single strand cables


Quote:

In the near future may try the Mapleshade 8' twisted pair speaker cables-at $US85 reasonable outlay to compare with my homemades.

I will be purchasing a set of these within the next month. My friend has just purchased a $300 set of speakers cables with a more

RGibran
RGibran's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 17 hours ago
Joined: Oct 11 2005 - 5:50pm
Re: Single strand cables


Quote:
Pull on the plug, not the cable. An important lesson we all should have learned by now.

Sheesh Jan, what's it like riding around on that horse all day long?

For you to suggest that anyone, including novices', would pull on a couple of 30 guage wires held together by some masking tape is an insult to this entire community.

At least Drumguy was honest enough to admit he had experienced more than one "frustrating breaks" using this wire.

RG

Jan Vigne
Jan Vigne's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Mar 18 2006 - 12:57pm
Re: Single strand cables

Sheesh, rgibran, what's it like to have no sense of humor?

So, what, you want me to lie? I've had no problems with these cables. The thinner gauge cables are more flexile than a 20 A.W.G. wrapped with another wire. You probably had a very stiff cable that broke at a stress point, rgibran.

This has been an enlightening thread. "It can't work" and "it's gonna break" are the comments.

It works, it hasn't broken and it sounds very good - in my system.

I would like to thank Elk for keeping an open mind.

Jan Vigne
Jan Vigne's picture
Offline
Last seen: Never ago
Joined: Mar 18 2006 - 12:57pm
Re: Single strand cables


Quote:
I would have bet one whole paycheck that I would never have heard enough difference to justify $300 in two sets of IC
RGibran
RGibran's picture
Offline
Last seen: 2 years 17 hours ago
Joined: Oct 11 2005 - 5:50pm
Re: Single strand cables


Quote:
I would like to thank Elk for keeping an open mind.

Jan, because some of us have sighted some obvious glaring potential shortcomings on this topic hardly qualifies us as not having open minds, assuming I'm interpreting your "humor" correctly. YMMV

RG

Pages

  • X
    Enter your Stereophile.com username.
    Enter the password that accompanies your username.
    Loading