The website shows this thing is like 5.5K !!!? For a computer speaker? Come on. For a few hundred more a FOCUS from Legacy Audio is a speaker to make some sound. Legacy Focus is more efficient, down to 16Hz etc etc and fills a HOUSE with REAL sound, there is no way this thing can make music, how did you arrive at the absurd price of $6K? Start over, maybe it is $600?

Geez ... you're everywhere throwing crap around like a mad little monkey, aren't you?

How in the heck do you arrive at "computer speaker" and "absurd" ? Prices are set as a result of what things cost to build - you don't like it, don't buy it. But who needs your unqualified opinion?

It's nice that you like Legacy - they do something for you, but that's no reason to crap on someone else's product - especially one you're completely ignorant about.

Go play in traffic.

Based on information provided in your writings, I base my conclusions that it is not a $5K+ speaker. Single driver? Poor freq specs, nothing of what speakers in this price category do. Price of something have no relation to mfg costs, marketing decides what price the market will take. This price strikes me as a doomed product. Good luck. BLOSE does over priced marketing better than anyone. I am an afficianado of fine audio, priced in reality for performance received. Think of me a a reviewer, who don't just claim superlatives, to sell stuff. Can you justify the high price for such a diminutive speaker one driver box? What kind of warranty? I am very qualifed to have an opinion. How was the price of the PET ROCK determined?

Items based on price to mfg? Why are CD's still listed at like $18 or so each? then BMG is selling hundreds and hundreds at $4.99 and $1.99 CD's that have been in stock for a long time, how mcuh does it cost to make a CD now that they have been produced for over 20 years, yet is sold for high prices and normal prices, for the SAME disc. Maybe an educated consumer finds the right priced stuff, not at some absurd random number.

You're like a guy wandering into a wine tasting, three sheets to the wind already, saying that - based on specs - Night Train is clearly a better value.

You're not an afficionado of fine audio, you're CLEARLY not an afficionado of fine audio. You are an afficionado of your abundantly ignorant opinion. If what you say is true, then most of high end audio would have been doomed.

But just for kicks I'll attempt to reach through the thickness of your opiated self image and teach you something: The justification for the price of the product extends as a direct consequnce of what it costs to build and market. For those who hear it and love it, the price is clearly worth it. It is an eminently refined and able loudspeaker that I'd be proud to put up against anything within its general price range.

If you're a bass junkie that needs to play IASCA infrasonic test discs in order to achieve wood, these aren't for you. But if you don't mind trading the 4 or 5 notes below 35 Hz for a supremely rendered musical presentation, then this loudspeaker will likely curl your toes.

I'm certain, now, that most of high end audio doesn't meet with your approval - that you're just another one of these crankpot curmudgeons trolling the threads looking for another opportunity to share more detritus.

I saw that Jonathan Scull was very polite to you - I don't think you deserved his politeness. You have no idea whatsoever what it takes to design, build, and market a product and how price is arrived at and what value is. Look at how you justufied your Legacy Focus: It goes louder and has more bass. Dude - you could have saved a BUNDLE if you just bought some Cerwin vegas and called it a day.

No - you're not an afficionado of fine audio. You're just an asshole with big speakers.

CDs are priced for $18 because the musicians and artists want to get paid, too. The cheap discs get sold when the discs are no longer selling in volume.

Geezsus crimini ... you have got to be the cheapest tightwad I've come accross in the 14 years I've been doing this professionally.

LMFAO @ "You're just an asshole with big speakers."

Jeff - looks like you've had to deal with this fella in person and otherwise. I hope that he's less sociopathic when he actually has to talk to a live human being in front of him.

Antisocial Personality Disorder

There must be an internet derivative or subset of this disease whereby the APD only emerges when the person is reasonably assured that they won't have to suffer any immediate social consequences for being so dickish.

Although I could still see elements of the DUP I knew (we all know) from the forum, meeting Carl in person made a difference; he was a kind host, and a real human being that I liked far more than his online incarnation. It's because of this meeting that I'm more tolerant than I might be -- I want to like him because I've met him, but, he makes it very difficult, sometimes. There have been a few times I've considered putting him on Ignore. He takes a lot of ribbing here in the forums (much deserved.) I can't tell if he takes it because he's a good sport or he's unaware. The description in the link seems accurate, sad to say, so I lean towards the latter.

I think that there is no shortage of people willing to spill vitriol and hatred from the comfort of their internet persona. I know one fellow for whom the effect spilled back over into his real life and he's alienated his friends, lost his girlfriend, become one of the most hated personalities in the industry ... and is fairly convinced that EVERYONE ELSE is the idiot.

Internet Troll Personality Disorder

Article

I'm talking bout' speakers, you are doing a physcological report, what are you talkin' bout'? anyway? A speaker system with one driver in it for $5,500? That strikes me as grossly over priced, specs are not that good either for that price, hardly a product I'd listen to, ther is a reasonable expectation of a certain level of performance at price levels...without listening, just knowing it has one driver, it cannot possibly do anything. That is based on experience, and logic. BLOSE trys to market small drivers under teh guise of being high performance, even they can't change physics, to move air, it takes lotsa watts into lotsa drivers...fact o life in audio world.

CD's are $18 cus' they can be, they are also $4.99 when purchased at the right time. Look back at some archives about CD pricing, how teh music companies promised to lower prices after teh initial bugs and issues where solved when CD's where intorduced in 1982, they never lowered teh prices, it's call greed. Now that Cd sales are slowing down, bargains and prices are where they have come down to wher they should have been 10 years ago. Tower Records is out of business, cus' they thought they could keep selling $20 CD's...BMG consolidated with ColumbiaHouse cus' of price errosion on CD and slower Cd sales. I sometimes have to pay more than I want to to get some discs not available at teh bargain places. www.cdconnection.com has great selections, in stock etc...with higher prices. I got a SRV sACD hybrid for $4.99 at BMG, I also paid $18 fro it at a different place, price is artifical, depends who sells it. i am a dummy, but I know selling price has nothing to do with mfg costs. Do you think teh artists are making money on their $18 Cd's..DCC had a disc out from one of my aquanitances, the musican disn't get squat from the sales of the discs, they got stiffed. They didn't see money from selling discs at high prices. comparison of you $5,500 speaker to a Legacy Focus, ain't no comparison, besides going down to 16Hz, and out past 20K with sparkling clarity, not Cerwin Vega sound, you big dope, FOCUS are real sonic marvels....with fit and finish of fine furniture, and they sold with a 10 year warranty, what is your warranty. Legacy has lowered teh warranty now to 5 years. Try a pair of FOCUS, you will realize your $5500 speakers ain't in teh same leauge. I beleive this magazine reviewed a pair, read all about it, nothing but praise, a BARGAIN in high end

What are you talking bout'...comenting on SPEAKERS, and you turn it into a personal attack, hatred, etc what are you talkin' bout? Discuss products, don't do analysis of the poster. You appear to be too tightly wound, lighten up dude. Your speakers appear to not be a value in it's price category, one driver cannot physically move air and sound anything like live music, impossible...BLOSE trys using paper cones of tiny size, and try to convince old people it's the best sound possible....your writings are saying similar things, that this one driver co-axial speaker is gonna sound like something specail, can't do it, impossible, no matter what kind of veneer or polish on the box. One other model is $59K, are you high? Elite Audio ran a couple of pages of glossy ads in a recent issue, prices where nuts for $120 HTIB stuff.

DUP - it is a coaxial, not a single driver. SO ... lesson one (we'll edumacate you eventually):

1) A coaxial loudspeaker driver consists of a high frequency driver (referred to as a "tweeter" in audio parlance) that is mounted concentrically with a larger low frequency driver ("woofer" in the jargon). This concentric arrangement permits the separated frequency components of the music, previously divided by a filter known as a "crossover" to rejoin as a 'point source' - as if they emanated from a single point in space.

So, are we straight now? It is not a single driver ... it is two drivers.

Did I change your mind?

Of course not. You're ALREADY convinced you know something about speaker building, and that you know enough to express a meaningful opinion about mine - even though you haven't so much as been within 500 miles of it.

Quote:
i am a dummy, but I know selling price has nothing to do with mfg costs.

In this case selling price has everything to do with the cost to make the speaker. Out there in the world of soap and soda and french fries and pizza, you are more right than wrong. In here in the world of this speaker at this company, you're ridiculously stupidly and completely wrong.

You're obviously a big giant fan of big giant speakers that make big giant sound. I'm not a fan of speakers like that, typically, because you have to sit far away from them in order for the output of the many many drivers to converge properly (at the point which the interference patterns between the drivers essentially smooth out and blend).

So: Are you think kind of guy that would buy a 2 carat diamond of ok clarity, decent cut ... but at least it's 2 carats? Or would you go for a 1 carat diamond, white as white can be, no discernable flaws, a nearly perfect example of a white diamond?

Warranty on our speakers will be 5 years.

I'm not spilling hatred, I'm expressing my opinion. I think your sonic values and your understanding of the difference between QUANTITY and QUALITY are supremely weak - can't I share that opinion? I mean after all ... I don't know you personally, I can only make assumptions based on what I have seen and read on the internet - isn't that enough to sum up your values and personality?

I know for a fact that you have no idea what you're talking about when you characterize the Angelus speaker. You didn't even know what a coaxial driver is. You somehow think it is a single driver.

You seem to think that just because a speaker can spec out at 16Hz to ultrasonics that it is doing the job well and properly, which presumes you even know what the job is and what "well" and "properly" mean.

I submit that you don't know, that you're speaking from an orifice typically reserved for the expulsion of waste ... and thus your posts are tainted with that very aroma.

So while you protest that you are commenting about these SPEAKERS, you can't be really ... because you have no idea what these speakers are, how they work, what they sound like, what they look like, what their internal construction is, what their finish quality is. TRUST me - although Legacy has some above average finishes, they will never ever ever ever come anywhere NEAR the quality of the finish on these speakers ever. Did I mention ever?

And if I may be so bold as to repeat myself: EVER

So since you're not talking about the Aneglus speakers (you've demonstrated your ignorance there), you're just advertising for Legacy in the thread I started as an advertisement for my new product. I posted it in Manufacturer's Showcase because (drumroll please ...) I'm showcasing a new speaker.

And you troll around looking for pools to pee in ...

Go play in traffic.

Quote:
comparison of you $5,500 speaker to a Legacy Focus, ain't no comparison, besides going down to 16Hz, and out past 20K with sparkling clarity, not Cerwin Vega sound, you big dope, FOCUS are real sonic marvels....with fit and finish of fine furniture, and they sold with a 10 year warranty, what is your warranty. Legacy has lowered teh warranty now to 5 years. Try a pair of FOCUS, you will realize your $5500 speakers ain't in teh same leauge. I beleive this magazine reviewed a pair, read all about it, nothing but praise, a BARGAIN in high end

You know - I just realized: you must be really PO'd that you bought Whispers instead of Focus. Focus goes to 16Hz, your Whispers can only manage 22Hz - but Whispers are like, what - $15k? vs the Focus at $6,200 or so?

Did you pay too much for too little bass? I mean, Focus and Whisper are otherwise identical: 30kHz HF extension, 95 dB efficiency, 5 year warranty, they are within 25 pounds of each other ... am I to assume you paid almost $10,000 more for the Whisper for an extra 25 pounds of wood, a couple extra drivers, and lackluster bass performance compared to the Focus?

And you are calling ME a dope?

I sold my FOCUS to get the Whisper. I used the Focus for several years. Focus DOES go deeper, but the Whispers have a much better mid and much more ALIVE open sound. and why does it have a much better mid, MORE drivers? Hmmm, I think BD knows how to use physics to make it all REAL. Whisper also comes with a low frequency damping control unit for low end control. What GREAT stuff!. One single driver can't. It's just a fact, no marketing can change that. Legacy makes the best stuff in all it's price ranges. Like AVA electronics, priced for mortals, based in reality. no 9" X 12" box is gonna do what a Focus can do, impossible. Re price the boxes you have into reality based pricing, not based on hopes and dreams of some marketing idea.

And your advertising wurds using things like audio "instruments" and connoisseur....is some marketing plan, trying to give the highly overpriced boxes some air of sophistication. The hype is at an extreme level. Move the decmal places for the stuff, it's nuts. Some of them are at $59K? I'm sure they cost so much more to make than the others. So you think a car is priced, based on what it costs to make? Then why do they all want to sell higher priced models, than econo versions, cus it doesn't cost that much more to make than the lower levels. The price increases way beyond cost to mfg.

I'm not trolling, since this is a FORUM, I see things, read, and comment on it. That's why this has a REPLY tab. That is what this web site is for? Not just for you to advertise your stuff. REPLY function is meant to be used.

Your perception of how to listen to large speakers, do not apply. READ the Legacy pdf on how the Whispers are designed, how they work. BD has used reality and science to create one of the best speakers available. you have obviously never heard Legacy stuff, or you would not be making those ASSumptions, especially bout' the Whispers. Small speakers, small sound. That is a fact that can't change. Coaxial driver or what ever, it's never gonna move air like well designed, properly placed multiple drivers. Again, teh asking price for these TINY boes is absurd. Whispers are also extremely well made, according to BD it takes about a month to complete a Whisper from raw material to finish work of art. These ain't no stamped out speakers meant for Circuit City crowd. Legacy has superb fit and finish, with teh addded benefit of the finast sound, which is what a speaker is made to do. Legacy managed to price it in reality, their $45K Helix, way under the price of your $59K model, is a bargain!!!

Super Fi, welcome aboard.

Thanks for your posts.

Some help for ya:

Click on DUP's name on one of his posts.

Then, look along the bottom box of things you can do.

The fourth one from the left is "Ignore this user."

Choose that option, and life will suddenly get better!

I had forgotten to take my own advice the past month or so, but this thread reminded me and I will rectify my error.

I look forward to more of your announcements.

DUP - I think you are imagining the diffrence between Focus and Whispers. Clearly you must be - they measure ostensibly the same, and the Focus measures a lot better in the low frequencies. I think you must have fallen for some marketing hype because there is no way that the Whispers with their anemic bass limited to 22Hz could POSSIBLY be better than the Focus (which go to 16Hz!!!!!!!!).

Yes, you have clearly fallen for marketing and the love of a bigger looking speaker. You have been sucked down the vortex of being convinced to spend almost $10k more and getting less in the process.

So embarassing, after your tirade. I mean - how could the Whispers possibly be more refined when they measure as if they are a weaker speaker? Where's that extra 6 Hz? Lost in the translation or lost in the transaction?

Poor DUP, duped by marketing and a bigger box with more drivers. Hypnotized by the promise of something more and, for a $9k additional expenditure, getting girly-man bass response in the trade.

Sell your giant speaker and buy an Angelus and a good subwoofer that will bring back your lost 16 Hz ... and then pocket the remaining 5 grand or so. You'll be a changed man.

DUP - come to work with me and put me right. Help me price my equipment with you worldly knowledge of fine audio. Come help me with your guidance and wisdom.

Buddha - many thanks. Now that I'm looking back on all of these posts I am thinking to myself that it is always the village idiot that makes things entertaining, and yet he soon wears everyone thin and is unwelcome.

My thoughts are that DUP is some seriously stinky cheese ... and he may drive away more people than he is worth in entertainment value. It would be interesting if forums could vote people off - like some reality TV show.

There's no educating him, there's no reasoning with him, so all that's left is to ignore him. And maybe ask Bill Dudelson to start some forums on his Legacy site so that fanboys like DUP can gladhand and back-pat each other all day long instead of trolling for pools to pee in.

Buddha ... fount of wisdom and peace. I have taken your advice and ignored the troll.

Kensho.

Many thanks.

Chris

DUP can't be a Troll. It says Trolls have cunning and good enough social skills to spice the mixture before adding the vitriol.

Jeff and JA have visited DUP, who becomes the mild-mannered Carl and is a gracious host, a good egg. It is only when he assumes the persona of Internet Audio Consultant and General Debunker of All Non-Legacy-AVA Systems that he becomes a crazed, frothing psychopath. The keyboard cannot contain his sputtering, as the dreaded "Teh" begins to infect an otherwise perfectly serviceable language. Jekyll had his Hyde, Carl has his DUP. Give a man an alias and all hell breaks loose.

Warning. Do not reason with this man in his writing Avatar. But do, by all means, buy him a drink if you see him incarnate and properly clothed, fed, and housed.

Happy listening, and I hope your business is a rousing success.

Clifton,you forgot to mention shoes ! lol

Hi Clifton,
Many thanks for the insight and good wishes. Should the human being Carl ever cross my path, fully clothed and with shoes on, I may just buy him a drink. This DUP personality, however, is permanently ignored.

Ooops! Hopefully, not an omission caused by subconscious evasion. Nostalgia, perhaps -- a yearning for happier times, when none of us wore shoes. Yes, by all means, have him properly shod.

In all fairnes to DUP, Super Fi, you did have some criticism on the audio circle forum and you over reacted there as you did here. As a pro I think you would be better served if you treated your critics with a bit more detachment.
Your marketing seems a bit over the top and can appear to some seasoned audiophiles as overhyped.

Your initial responses at AC and here tend to alienate me if I were a potential buyer (I am happy with my Watts so I'm not buying)
Both at AC and here your responses have grown increasingly more reasoned
and put you in a better light.
Anyway this is all just IMHO and I hope you don't take it negatively.

Hi Tom,

I suppose you're right, and I suppose I was surprised that someone could have an extreme opinion about something they've never seen nor heard.

Advertising is as it is ... I'm just spreading the word about a new product, something I'm excited about precisely because it defies expectations. Be that as it may, the Sicilian in me was all too happy to swing back when swung at.

As for hyperbole ... again, I'll blame that on my heritage! Since I can't talk with my hands on an internet forum, I have to make up for it somehow...

I hope I have a chance to hear the speaker some day. It looks like you carry some excellent gear.
Glad no offense was taken.

Hi Tom,

I don't get offended when someone is reasonable.

What part of the country are you located in?

Youse guys are way to serious about stuff that really means nutin'. It's about stereos......the claims and absurd writeups about a piece of wire is ENTERTAINING, how some hear so much, become so involved in a piece of wire!!! Now don't mock what I hear, cus' this is important stuff.! Entertainment at it's best. yeah, I'm a RETARD hahahahaha Jeff, I'm unaware, now that's a gud von.....$5,500 speakers with one driver, and then the dude is all hoity toity and uppity about some over priced stuff...how dare I question and mock this wooden box!!! Some are just wrapped a bit too tight. Funny stuff, entertaining, let's see who else I can get going.

Quote:
yeah, I'm a RETARD hahahahaha Jeff, I'm unaware, now that's a gud von...

Well, the thing is, the pattern of your posting the same 4 things over and over in a variety of threads, regardless of the thread's current theme or topic, suggests compulsion over consciousness... so, yes, I would think unaware might be apt. If your frequent off-topic outbursts are indeed conscious, deliberate decisions, you're being nothing more than disruptive and malicious intentionally. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, but, according to you, I'm wrong.

Jeff,you have to admit he has improved.it used to be 3 things ! lol

OCD If I DON'T post more than 2, the monster will get me.

Is it better to be UNAWARE, or intentional your honor? Like Schultz on hogan's Hero's...I'll just say I knoooow nothing.....everyone is right. For now on. I will be demagnetizing, supporting my speaker wires on lifts, i will, now hear what wire sounds like. And the sound of a $40K CD player is superbly the best available, distortion is there to sound better. You win. And grossly overpriced speaker boxes, are always a deal, cus' the marketeer says so. and physics has been defeated by marketing, one speaker will sound like 10. I give.....oh, and GERMANS don't make teh best inovative cars anymore, China and Korea do.

Quote:
Is it better to be UNAWARE, or intentional your honor? Like Schultz on hogan's Hero's...I'll just say I knoooow nothing.....everyone is right. For now on. I will be demagnetizing, supporting my speaker wires on lifts, i will, now hear what wire sounds like. And the sound of a $40K CD player is superbly the best available, distortion is there to sound better. You win. And grossly overpriced speaker boxes, are always a deal, cus' the marketeer says so. and physics has been defeated by marketing, one speaker will sound like 10. I give.....oh, and GERMANS don't make teh best inovative cars anymore, China and Korea do.

Yup, I broke my own rule and read one last DUP post. I couldn't help it. It's like watching the late news after watching watching the early news just to see if the guy on the ledge changed his mind and might not jump this time.

I looked at that post, and for a brief moment heard it in the voice of some past belligerent girlfriend hitting back with the ever powerful retort, "Fine, then you're right, I guess you're just right about everything, too. Fine! I'll just sit here and be wrong. Fine, from now on I'll just LOVE those 44K CD players, and distortion is good, and other examples of things we both know are wrong, but now I'll make it sound like you actually believe the crap I just said I'd believe in..."

DUP, thanks for the stroll down memory lane, you helped me remember what it was like to be sitting next to an angry 16 year old chick.

I especially like the "sandbagging," bringing back all your grievances and pooping them out in one breath - you pretty much covered your entire ouvre, with the exception of saying that from now on you'd listen to something other than Matt Oreo.

Well done!

How do you KNOW it is Excellent without seeing or hearing it? If I get critized for asking WHY is a single speaker priced at $5,500? What makes you think this stuff is "excellent", oh, since they priced it so high. That's the oldedst marketing trick out there, price it high, people think it's good. Have the best item in it's field, underprice it, must not be so good.

Quote:
How do you KNOW it is Excellent without seeing or hearing it? If I get critized for asking WHY is a single speaker priced at $5,500? What makes you think this stuff is "excellent", oh, since they priced it so high. That's the oldedst marketing trick out there, price it high, people think it's good. Have the best item in it's field, underprice it, must not be so good.

DUP,
I never said I knew his gear was excellent. I said "it looks like you carry some excellent gear" This comment was based on the rep of some of the manufactuers he carries and was said by me to be polite in the midst of some of my criticism of his marketing.
I have never heard the Legacies either but from numerous reveiws and friends comments I assume the Legacy brand is excellent. That means I think they would be worth auditioning IF I were in the market for speakers. Based on Van Alstines rep and longevity I would audition his gear as well.
I would never buy or recommend gear I haven't heard in my own system.

Perhaps you meant to respond to someone ele's post? Your response to mine seems to indicate you read more into it than I intended or you are not refering to my post.

Dup,
also if you read my post I think it is clear I wasn't refering to the speakers, but his other product. I have no opinion on the Angelus other than mild skepticism, eg. I am not tempted to audition them.