So, he doesn't believe that the great old violins sound any different/better than good newly made instruments. So what? We all want to listen to the great violinists. They choose to play instruments that are 250-300 years old because, to the performers, those instruments sound better. We simply trust their judgment as to the best vehicles they can get to display their talents and enjoy their performances.

I remember reading another theory:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/science/12/08/stradivarius.secret.ap/

I remember the Nova did a program on efforts by modern violin makers to duplicate the sound of a Strad. As I remember it, they threw some pretty heavy science, and measurment technology, at the problem and did not succeed. They could get close but they couldn't get an exact match for the overtone profile of one of those great old violins. One maker postulated that the reason that a Strad sounds the way it does is simply because it had been played for over 200 years. All those years of vibrating may have actually "tempered" the wood on the molecular level. What's interesting is, not only could a great violinist hear the difference, they could actually measure WHAT was different in the lab. What they couldn't do was duplicate it.

That was about 10 or 15 years ago and I am sure that the science of making a violin has moved on. Which means that there may be modern violins that sound as good as a Strad. One question that arises is whether it will sound as good in another 50, or 200 years. If wood really can be tempered by years of playing, it means the sound of any of these instruments is always changing.

One thing that is intersting is that all that science that has been used trying to make a modern Strad is now being used by some guitar makers and one banjo maker that I know of.

pray tell, which banjo maker?

seriously, I'm genuinely curious.

And I hear that the banjo sounds as good as a Strat. At least according to a certain Stereophile reviewer. J.A.s measurments disagree though. He claims that they look like two completely different instruments.

I can't remember the banjo maker. It was one of those evening news filler stories about 4 years ago and you know how they gloss over the details in broadcast news. I just remember he was using some of the same measuring tests to check his banjo's as were used to measure the Strad and that he couldn't actually play a banjo. For the actual playing, he relied on his customers and the news report had it that he was one of the leading banjo makers in the US.

Of course, hindsight might say that I shouldn't have mentioned the banjo story. We all know how badly the evening news distorts anything they report on. However, I just thought it so bizarre, the search for a new Strad leading to a better banjo, that I just had to relate what I had seen.

One thing that I am sure of is that all the research that has been done on Strads, and similar violins, has resulted in modern violins that sound much better. I am also pretty sure that any modern violin with a really good sound quality probably cost a bunch. That show on Nova showed pretty clearly that it took a really skilled artisan to properly build a violin and it was all done by hand. Which means today's great sounding violins are probably going to be tomorrows Strads.

Did you mean 25 years ago, Scooter123?

Great Violin Mystery (The)
A great secret lies locked inside the master violins created by Italian craftsmen like Antonio Stradivari in the 17th and 18th centuries. Now, a Wisconsin physicist, working alone in his cellar, may have solved the violin mystery.
Original broadcast date: 10/11/81
Topic: technology/engineering

BTW, The only time I heard a comparison of a Guaneri and Stradivarius, they were very different in timbre.

Devon

There was a major article in a science publication 10-20 years ago on research that was done to try and identify the basis for the sound the Strads make.

They were able to take some wood from one that had needed repair, and the analysis and subsequent testing revealed that the wood had been soaked in seawater for a long period of time before it was used for the construction of the instrument.

There is no way to tell if this was initially intentional, or just serendipity, but tests on wood from several strads made over a long period tested the same, so if it was serendipitous in the beginning, they must have learned from it and done it intentionally in later years (or was old Stradivarius salvaging old boats...lol).

Hey...maybe old Strad himself coined that old italian expression when he went looking for cheap wood...("whatever floats-a-you boat"....).

But seriously, folks; apparently the practice at that time was for loggers to cut the trees needed for manufacturing furniture and instruments near a river and float the logs down the river to the seacoast, where they might be kept in the water for varying periods of time until they were cut up and sold.

A much more recent article, in the Smithsonian last year, talked about the major difference that bows make. The wood that has been used for hundreds of years comes from Brazil, and the supply is endangered. An international consortium of bow-makers and other concerned individuals has been formed to plant and protect trees there to ensure an ongoing supply of the proper wood.

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There was a major article in a science publication 10-20 years ago on research that was done to try and identify the basis for the sound the Strads make.

I have that article here and it's quite amazing and educational. It was in the October 1981 issue of Scientific American, written by luthier Carleen Hutchins. She obtained several Strad violins and took them apart to analyze. Imagine being loaned a Strad and the owner tells you it's okay to take it apart!

A married couple who are friends of mine are luthiers and former students of Carleen's, and they use her methods when building new instruments. Here's an article I wrote about them for The Strad magazine:

www.ethanwiner.com/spear.html

--Ethan

Gibson, they made banjos, mandolins, guitars, read about the history of Gibson, Les Paul tried all kinds of different wood species for a sound he wanted besides teh making of teh electric pickups, using different turns etc. Different coatings on guitars just liek violins make them sound different, A Gibson Les Paul from 1959 is gonna sound different than a Les Paul of late. Even teh magnetic coils change paramters over the decades, bobbins loosen, magnets loose their flux. Gison designers investigaed and compared sounds of old violins in their research on sounds of different woods. They never mentioned the wire conecting the amp to the guitar. BUT, since guitar pickups are HIGH IMPEDANCE source, a WIRE that has improper impedance match will change the sound. But it's not magic, it's just science.

In the clasical guitar world we are in a renassiance of guitar making.

2 woods are used for tops: either spruce or cedar. spruce takes longer to break in, has a brighter sound and can be clearer but is more analytical as not as loud. Cedar tops are warmer, more "romantic" , lush etc. but don't have as much clarity in the inner voices. Spruce may have more tone colors also.
A great maker strives to make spruce get the best of cedar and the reverse with the cedar guitar.
Some makers are now making double top guitars and some of those have a spruce outer top and a cedar inner.
The double tops are louder than conventional guitars. the 2 tops are paper thin with a layer of nomex(composite) sandwhiched between. thus the luthier can use very thin bracing.

Some makers use a bit of graphite in the braces.

In this "golden " age we are now in many consider the german, Matthias Damman to be the Stradivarius of the guitar.
Some of our most famous artists play a Damman: David Russel, Pepe Romero, Manuel Barrueco.

Maple and Mahogony. Gibson is still cranking out Les Pauls. A truly incredible insturment. The history of Gibson is amazing, Orville Gibson, started making stuff like 1904 or something. Les Paul made the magic solid body happen. Les Paul still playing at 90 years old!!! Les Paul is his stage name. Lester Polfus or sumtin' Recording and inovative guru...he changed the world of guitars and recording effects. Between a Fender and a Gibson, they turned the world around in guitars.

I come from a long line of woodworkers and built custom cabinets for a living way back when. I've worked a lot of exotic lumber and all of the commonly available lumber. So, I always enjoy reading and watching the tube whenever there is a study related to lumber.

The fact is that every piece of lumber is somewhat unique in grain structure, natural oils and the like. This is primarily due to the impact the weather and environmental conditions place on the tree. Naturally, genetics of various species will dominate, but even within the same species, the trees will adapt to the environment and can vary quite a bit in characteristics.

I have no particular theory about the Strad issue, but if the lumber used was sourced from the same grove or region, the secret may lie in hundreds of years of environmental development that couldn't possibly be duplicated.

Still, I find it hard to believe that the Strad sound could not be duplicated to the point of being indistinguishable on sonic grounds.

Regarding the issue of sea water in the trees. There is a thriving market for trees that have spent a century or so at the bottom of several South-East rivers. The lumber is prized by woodworkers and extremely well preserved. The demand is such that people have spent considerable resources retrieving the timbers from the bottom of these rivers and are making a handsome living selling the lumber.

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Maple and Mahogony. Gibson is still cranking out Les Pauls. A truly incredible insturment. The history of Gibson is amazing, Orville Gibson, started making stuff like 1904 or something. Les Paul made the magic solid body happen. Les Paul still playing at 90 years old!!! Les Paul is his stage name. Lester Polfus or sumtin' Recording and inovative guru...he changed the world of guitars and recording effects. Between a Fender and a Gibson, they turned the world around in guitars.

I agree, DUP , in the world of electric guitars < Les Paul rigns supreme.
When we speak of classical guitars we speak of a different instrument. They share the same name only. It might be accurate for you to think of Damman as the Les Paul of clasical guitars.
BTW, check out David Russel on Telarc. He won a Grammy for best classical CD last year. He is a terrific musician.

Whether or not a Strad can be distinguished by a listener is somewhat dependant on the listeners auditory "violin" acuity.
However, that is irrelevant from the performers perspective. The performer responds on a very personal level to the intrument as he plays. The more responsive instrument contributes to a more artistic performance. This quality , By definition, can only be determined by the performer. If the artist feels more in tune with a particular instrument then that is the better instrument for him, because he will play better and be more communicative on that instrument.
In the final analysis this is how I pick a guitar. some guitars speak to me more than others and those guitars are better instruments "for me".

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The performer responds on a very personal level to the intrument as he plays. The more responsive instrument contributes to a more artistic performance. This quality , By definition, can only be determined by the performer. If the artist feels more in tune with a particular instrument then that is the better instrument for him...

The same could be said of music-loving audiophiles and their equipment. Ultimately, we choose gear according to how it feels, and how it leaves us feeling when we listen to music.

jason victor serinus

I agree, Jason

As a general comment...The quality and type of wood is critical to any musical instrument. Review what happened to Steinway durning the CBS ownership era. All of of the "stencil" pianos coming out of the orient cannot compete for touch and tone.

Fascinating topic!

I saw a show about the "little ice age" that occurred at the end of the dark ages and lasted several hundred years.

One of the topics it brought up was the Stradivarius phenomenon, and it looked at climate conditions that were in place in the years before Strad started making his beautiful instruments.

One posulate was that colder weather made for denser wood with smaller growth ring structure, but the experts didn't think that was enough to explain it.

Then I saw an article about the same subject that proposed a certain ring pattern that may have serendipitously made for a wood with the optimum resonance patterns.

Sort of a thing where cold/warm/cold/cold/warm...or whatever made for growth rings that that made for a better structure.

Then, Strad recognized this and could shop for wood with the patterns he liked...and kept secret.

Supposedly, there is going to be some sort of study done to look at whether he chose certain ring patterns for his instruments.

I do like the varnish theory, too. ut it keeps getting discounted.

Lots and lots of questions.

Kind of reminds me of the mystery of Damascus Steel!

Re: Damascus... Nanotechnology!

http://archaeology.about.com/b/a/257799.htm

Also the way it's cut, so teh grain go a certain way. A book about Gibsons, show how much is involved in getting it right, what changes, what matters. Gibsons are the Stradivarius of Guitars....Gibson history is amazing. The combination of a Gibson Les Paul and a Marshall amp stack, is called the ultimate tone generator. You realize it's creating teh sound, not reproducing it, thus the DISTORTION is part of the creation. When REPRODUCING this from a recording, you do not want distortion from your amps and speakers. That's why they overdrive tube stages etc. Not when playing it back.

It is an interesting subject. I spent about 3 hours saturday poking around the net looking into what is currently being done with modern violins and am convinced that we are probably in, or entering, a new renaisance for quality violins. What is interesting is that the top luthiers are now using the science available and actually sharing what they are learning. There is one luthier in Maine experimenting with form and materials like balsa wood used in a sandwich with spruce and maple. In France there is a luthier experimenting with carbon fibre laminated to a wood venier for the top. Many orchestral musicians are switching to carbon fibre bows because they are immune to the effects of humididty. From my reading, weather conditions can have a huge impact on the sound of a violin so many violinists are quite excepting of the use of synthetic materials as long as the violin sounds good. It's quite possible that the next "Strad" may look more like a product of the space program than a traditional violin. I just hope that if they do switch to carbon fibre and the like they keep a thin veneer of wood for the outer surface. One thing that appeals to me is that the violin is such a lovely example of woodworking at it's best.

There is a lot of experimenting with classical guitar as well.
The double tops I referenced before using Nomex which is a composite material .Carbon fiber is also used with bracing. The australian school of making heavily laminates the sides and back and the top is very thin with radial or lattice bracing rather than fan bracing. The guitars are very heavy and very loud. Greg Smallman represents the pinnacle of this design and John Williams plays his guitars. I think the Smallmans sound honkey , like a duck on steroids and I don't like their sound but some people love them.
I prefer the Damman aproach and I have 3 double top guitars made by the Swedish maker, Thomas Fredholm. He is still affordable , 8,500.00 for a double top.
even though he uses nomex he insists on using only animal glue, he thinks synthetic glue sounds different.
Classical guitar makers and violin makers ar communicating and sharing ideas. It is indeed an interesting time for these 2 instruments.

DUP, you should qualify and say the gibson/les paul is the strad of Electric guitar, (and I wouldn't disagree) remember they are very different instruments.
Gibsons steel strings and their classicals otoh are not so good.
There is no mass manufacturer who makes a truly concert level classical guitar.
No diss to Gibson, they are great at what they do.

Yes, ELECTRIC guitars correct

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It is an interesting subject. I spent about 3 hours saturday poking around the net looking into what is currently being done with modern violins and am convinced that we are probably in, or entering, a new renaisance for quality violins. What is interesting is that the top luthiers are now using the science available and actually sharing what they are learning. There is one luthier in Maine experimenting with form and materials like balsa wood used in a sandwich with spruce and maple. In France there is a luthier experimenting with carbon fibre laminated to a wood venier for the top. Many orchestral musicians are switching to carbon fibre bows because they are immune to the effects of humididty. From my reading, weather conditions can have a huge impact on the sound of a violin so many violinists are quite excepting of the use of synthetic materials as long as the violin sounds good. It's quite possible that the next "Strad" may look more like a product of the space program than a traditional violin. I just hope that if they do switch to carbon fibre and the like they keep a thin veneer of wood for the outer surface. One thing that appeals to me is that the violin is such a lovely example of woodworking at it's best.

I have a violinist friend who has 2 strads (his personal retirement fund)
He regularly performs on them. He also imports bows from China that are excellent. I will as him his opinion of modern violins and carbon fiber bows

With guitars you have to be careful about the amount of synthetic material you use. Modern guitar makers are looking for volume w/o sacrificing the natural tonal beauty of the guitar.

If you take too much wood out of the violin I would be worried about it still sounding like a violin. I am curious to get my friends opinion on this.

Talked to my violinist friend. He actually imports carbon fiber bows from china
They are caled relan bows.

I'm not at all surprized that your friend is using carbon fibre bows. For a bow, carbon fibre is an excellent choice because you get excellent stiffness, light weight, and it's nearly immune to humidity. Which means that the tension adjustment is probably nearly a set it and forget it procedure.

I am NOT a luthier so I am probably totally off the mark. However, I do have an interest in boating and know all about the advantages of using balsa cores in a boat hull. Sandwich balsa between layers of nomex or carbon fibre and you get a very stiff "board" that is both light weight and has excellent damping properties. Based on that, I would look at using a similar strucure for the top and bottoms of a violin. My reading on the various sites about violin making shows that a major feature of how a violin plays is due the balance between a light top and the correct level of damping for the top. The big problem with making the top too light is that the violin then becomes very prone to wolf notes (clipping). By experimenting with the "sandwich" it should be possible to make a top for the violin with a near ideal balance that is also resistant to overloading and producing wolf notes. Anyhow, if I were a luthier, that is the approach that I would be playing with.

Rev, Haven't listened yet, wiil do.

Scooter, With guitars there is disagreement about how much nomex or carbon fiber to use before the sound becomes "artificial"
Some makers use balsa braces but others don't like the sound of balsa.
Guitar makers are a cantankerous lot(they make audiophiles look laid back by comparison)
There are very "lively" discussions :-)

I can attest to the effectiveness of combining balsa and carbon fibre, but, in a very different application; the table tennis blade I use employs a combination of Hinoki cypress, balsa, and carbon fibre layers sandwiched together, resulting in a very stiff, vibration free response.

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I can attest to the effectiveness of combining balsa and carbon fibre, but, in a very different application; the table tennis blade I use employs a combination of Hinoki cypress, balsa, and carbon fibre layers sandwiched together, resulting in a very stiff, vibration free response.

ROTFLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just kidding. I'm sure that your table tennis buddies make fun of us too.

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I can attest to the effectiveness of combining balsa and carbon fibre, but, in a very different application; the table tennis blade I use employs a combination of Hinoki cypress, balsa, and carbon fibre layers sandwiched together, resulting in a very stiff, vibration free response.

I like my carbon fiber/balsa/nomex billy club. I use it to WHACK my students when they make a mistake. It makes a full, transparent sound with extended highs(their screams) and full bodied bass(their groans)

The mottto on a colleagues door: "The beatings will continue until morale improves"

I do believe that I attended that prestigious institution.

More balsa:

A high-density balsa wood grown in Ecuador is sandwiched between between glass-fiber/resin in the Corvette's floor. It provides stiffness and damping superior to synthetic materials.

I have been next to an excellent violinist playing a Strad. It is magnificent. However, this same violinist playing an "inferior" instrument also makes spectacular sounds. I am not sure I could hear the difference in a blind test but like to think that I could.