Ask three of them what is most important and you'll get three different answers. However, there are some basics that do tend to overlap into agreement. First, bass is difficult to control without having a large room or utilizing very large and well designed bass traps...and even those can only partially control such large bass cycles. 2nd, as you move up in frequency, treatments are far more effective. 3rd, the lowest resonant frequency of your speaker, combined with the dimensions and characteristics of your room will dictate to a large degree where to place the speakers and what frequencies are most likely to need treatment.

For someone using bookshelf speakers in a smallish room and who listens mostly to classic rock, they might concern themselves around getting a good 40hz frequency response without realizing that they are sitting in a room location that cancels out 40hz from a reflected wave. By moving the speaker and/or listening position a very small amount might produce a 40hz frequency that is drastically increased in level as the wave is at the top of its cycle and isn't being cancelled by a reflected wave.

This sort of thing is going on all over the room and at all frequencies and that is what speaker placement and room treating is designed to minimize.

The whole topic is far more involved than I'm qualified or capable of discussing intelligently other than to say that it's not something that is quickly or easily understood and that the more you learn about it the more questions and caveats begin to emerge. Especially when you realize all the variables that can alter what each of us consider to be the right combinations for our listening room and music choices.

If you do decide to take it a bit further, you'll need a sound pressure meter and a series of test tones like can be found on Stereophile's Test CDs that JA created and are available for purchase. From there, it's a lot of measuring and recording results as you move speakers around the room. It will be enlightening to learn what sort of frequency response you have in your room and what areas need to be addressed.

Getting a smooth frequency response in the mid frequencies is a good goal to have and it's achievable in most rooms. The lower frequencies will likely swing very high and very low, giving an indication of where your room modes are excited.

Tube Traps has the most useful insight into room treatments that I'm aware of. You can spend a lot of time on their site and still have your eyes glaze over, but the gist of it is pretty well communicated. http://www.tubetrap.com/tubetrap-layouts.htm

Hi Ron

"I have seen gallery pictures of room treatments where folks put up off-white panels in the upper corners of the room (they are triangular)"

That would be the RT CornerTune http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t57-roomtune-acoustical-treatment

Here are some of our clients rooms http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t249-a-look-at-tunable-systems

here are our other acoustical products

http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t301-roomtune-deluxe

http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t243-roomtune-rtd2-roomtune-deluxe-ll

http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t25-roomtune-squares

http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t70-rt-pzc-acoustical-treatment

http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t76-mga-sound-shutters-acoustical-defuse-aeroplanes

http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t75-the-tunable-room

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

In the beginning of the audiophile acoustical movement there were mainly four camps.

RPG: which are diffusers

Sonex: foam absorbers

ASC Traps: trap absorbers

RoomTune: barricade absorbers

This acoustical movement got rolling with the audiophiles in the mid to late 80's as the room became an accepted component in the audio chain. My products (RoomTune) was the first to point to the origin of the room loading spots, upper corners, mid-seams and main seams, thus began the term "roomtuning". After roomtuning started a host of other companies jumped in on the action and before long over 70% of the audiophile marketplace used some sort of acoustical treatment. When we counted (mid-90's), RoomTune sold to over 80,000 clients. We had 650 dealers and sold to 37 different countries. This gives you an idea of how big the acoustical movement was during high end audios biggest years.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

I certainly do not especially like casting aspersions on other manufacturers especially on those that might possibly be perceived as competitors even in some far out interpretation, but I have got to say it, Sonex just might be the worst material ever foisted upon naive and gullible audiophiles not to mention pro audio dudes and the guys that sit in those monitoring rooms that seemed at one point to have SONEX covering the entire surface of the room. I'm mean, am I the only one who thinks SONEX is for the birds and even in small amounts totally screws up the sound? I trust SONEX is not around any longer and has been related to big trash dumps somewhere. Looking on the bright side I'm am a big big fan of those tiny little bowls, the acoustic resonators with those teeny weenie 1 inch bowls that bowled people over way back when, the first being Franck's Acoustic Resonators, now available from a wide range of manufacturers including guess who. Which reminds me, someone should start a thread, How Small Can Something Be and Still Have a Major Impact on SQ?

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Geoff, was this really an ad?

I had to read this a few times to make sure it was not a joke. OMG how funny! Please tell me this was from the 60's.

Here's the instructions to get the best sounding room.

1) put glue on your walls
2) attach the Sonex, covering all walls
3) wear headphones, eliminating stray reflections and kill standing waves

some ad guy got fired after this, I hope

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

For you young whipper snappers here's a more uh modern pic. Can you tell how the room sounds by looking at the photo? Lol

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Getting back to the subject of room tuning for a second, here are some of my recommendations, without getting too crazy.

1. Tube traps with the caveat that experimentation is necessary to get the most out of them since the actual low frequency wave you're trying to ameliorate is often not precisely in the corner, it can be located a foot or more away from the corner. The reflective side of the tube trap should always face out into the room, of course.

2. Acoustic Discs from Golden Sound. These cute little guys comprise three aluminum discs about 3/4" diameter connected with slightly elastic foam so that in the presence of high frequency energy in the upper corners of the room they flutter slightly, dissipating that excess energy. That excess energy would otherwise make it to the listener's ear, distorting the sound.

3. Tiny little bowl acoustic resonators, which there are now at least three brands including your humble scribe's. The platinum, gold and silver ones from Franck Chang were the first, now there are some from Ziplex and Synergistic Research and my own that are ceramic. These tiny little bowls are placed at strategic points on the walls where there are first reflection points or echoes or even second reflection points and up near room corners.

4. Helmholtz resonators are useful in dissipating low or medium frequency standing waves in the room. They are relatively easy to make and there are formulas readily available that relate dimensions of the Bottle or Pipe and dimensions of the nozzle to the frequency of interest. I made one that was 15 foot long once, folded into an big S shape. Works great. The thing about Helmholtz resonators is they must be the correct dimension for the job. If they aren't they can hurt the sound. We're all,familiar with the term midrange suckout, right? Lol For example one reason why some rooms at the big audio shows sound rather bad is because of all the empty wine bottles and beer bottles lying around. Vases, those big hollow ceramic table lamps, things of that nature, are generally bad for the sound. Even the small ones resonate. Do a quick survey of the room and remove all such things ASAP.

5. To toot my own horn for a second, yes, I know, I said I wasn't going to get too crazy, but I think Blue Meanies should get a shout out since they do fit into the whole room tuning thing. Blue Meanies are slightly magnetic discs about 3/4" diameter that have been specially treated or programmed if you will and are blue in color. They are adhesive backed. One Blue Meanie is attached to each room wall anywhere on the wall, they can even be hidden behind a picture or bookshelf so as to be invisible. They work by reducing the subconscious feeling people get without being particularly aware of it that they are located in closed off space. That subconscious feeling, which is sometimes conscious, is usually referred to as claustrophobia. This claustrophobia reduces one's hearing ability so, without being aware of it, he's not completely or correctly hearing the sound that's in the room. A Green version is available for the ceiling. Excellent for big shows where the feeling of claustrophobia might be intensified with a whole gaggle of people in the room.

6. Echo Tunes from Michael Green. These handy little rectangles are positioned on the upper seam of the wall ceiling interface wherever there is a strong echo. I imagine most rooms could use at least two.

OK, have we forgotten anyone? We forgot Mpingo discs!! A really amazing product with myriad uses. The only trick is finding the locations for them, which does take patience, I admit that. But there's no substitute for the rich lush midrange and fat snappy upper bass Mpingo brings to the table.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Hi Ron

The very best way to get rolling on these things is to join TuneLand and either put up pics, or send them to me and we will put them up.

reason being

When you look at Tuneland you will see that most guys like to do a step by step with their systems, and by having your own thread we stay pretty focused on you.

If you didn't want to do that, I would recommend sending me pics and I'll take a look and start making recommendations. Joining TuneLand to be honest is best and a lot easier to keep track of. But I'll help either way. Anyone here on the Stereophile forum I'm more than happy to help out, cause it's fun one, and two fantastic promo.

With your question as stated. The best budget room treatment to go with would be the RT-Square. Most people start with the upper corners of the room and go with the CornerTune first (those triangles you see in the pics), but the RT Square is for the guy who is going to try a bunch of loacations and wants a treatment that can be used in many different ways.

As far as giving me info about your room and system, the more you give the easier it is for me to start hearing the system on my own and through your ears most importantly. As you get rolling, if you wish of course, I enjoy doing referencing together (as you see on tuneland). The key as I always say is getting inside your ears and thoughts about where you are and where you want to go.

here again is that link http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t25-roomtune-squares

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Hi Ron

Yep, saw the picture. What I think you might want to do is get started on TuneLand with your own thread, then we would take a look at the different angles of the room and talk a little bit about the sound and what some of the things are for you to play with. It's a little different than here, where as on http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/f3-home-audio-systems and http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/f10-audio-around-the-world we walk through our rooms together. More interactive. What I would want to do in your case is take your pictures and place product in them for you to look at and ask questions.

You'll have a good time. Some of the guys who come here are Tunees, and since I started posting more here they've been hanging out at both places. We're not here to steal people and also don't want to look like a store ad. That's why I don't do pics here. Links are cool, and John has been great about letting me share, but I keep the TuneLand listeners and clients as a separate proccess from me talking here.

So if and when you feel comfortable doing your own thread or talk on someone else's over there we'll be excited to have you.

If you look at the AXPONA pics we put up of our room there you'll see some of the RT's. I think Harold said he rounded up somewhere around 75 new Tunees today. Some have the Tunes and are wanting to add more and others getting started. Oh BTW Creek is across the hall from our room. Harold and Roy are show pals, from when Harold was a dealer only. He said (Harold) "it's kinda fun talking to these guys as another designer, after being their client for so long". Harold became GM of RoomTune in 2013 and I think is having a good time. A different world behind the scenes :)

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Yep, this hobby is a good time.

I was planning (still am) on doing a review on low mass recievers but we have been thinking about bringing in the Revolution 50A and 100A to play with. Both Harold and I have been long time Creekers. We'll probably bring in the CDP as well.

have fun

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Back on the subject for just a second to mention some perhaps unusual room treatments. Perhaps you've heard of them before, maybe not. Maybe you're using them already.

1. SteinMusic Harminizer, apparently from what I've read, a novel electronic decide with crystals that initiates motion in the air molecules in the room, giving them a jump start on the propagation of the sound waves produced by the speakers.

2. Room Spatializer Kit from our friends at Shun Mook. Actually a wood bracket that employs three, count 'em, Mpingo discs each. The Spatializers are placed at points of strong sound pressure on the floor usually but not always such as out from the speakers at the side walls.

3. Skyline diffuser for rear wall and other locations. This diffuser is constructed using random number generated blocks that jut out into the room from the Skyline panel. Effective breaks up the rear reflection with no downside.

4. Crystals of various types and sizes all thrown together in a bottle or ziplock bag and suspended from the ceiling at points of high sound pressure ANYWHERE in the 3 Dimensional space of the room. Crystals such as this are a MUST on Tube Traps! I kid you not.

5. The Golden Sound Acoustic Discs I mentioned before for room corners, top and bottom, also have some interesting other locations. On power cord plugs, wall duplex covers, cabinets of electronics, windows, etc.

6. Anti static spray for windows, book cases, carpets, all cabling, drapes, anything that has the potential for carrying a static charge. See how I used the word potential? Not just for CDs any more.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

The fact is "your room is your speaker". This is the advice I give to listeners in both home and pro. If your looking to loose music, use product that kill (direct absorbtion). If your looking to create a randomly dispersed signal, use defusion. If your looking to cancel zones, use traps and other beacon types. If your looking to Tune your room, use RoomTune :)

This is the right approach "I've actually placed my speakers *intentionally* to get a deep 40Hz and below response from my Epos Epic 2 speakers to get deeper bass than the manufacturer claims and view this as a success rather than a nuisance or disruption of the music."

bad designing

One thing I have learned about a lot of "designers" in this business is that some how they believe that disrupting the music "fixes" it. This sets back the high end audio industry years and years in innovation, design and users. There is no common sense in the theories that paint sound waves as random, scattered, unorganized systems. The whole reason why your Epos measured the way they did in the specs you see, is because they were measured in limited acoustics. There is absolutely no reason for them not to go far below their specs. You're proof of this along with thousands of listeners who have put the audiophile spinners on notice. They will go as far as to tell you your speakers are producing distortion in those low frequencies when you are obviously hearing the true signal.

your musical kingdom

Ron, anyone who paints your room as anything other than it being a musical instrument has limited knowledge and experience, plus a lack of respect for the biggest and most powerful component you have. Acoustics are really not that tough. The formation of the pressure zones are actually pretty cool but of course the over energized or lack of energy of anything needs to be harnessed and controlled. Here's a tip. When people put product in rooms designed to destroy the acoustics that's exactly what you end up with "a fight" and even if some things improve other things musical come up missing or distorted. The acoustical products that are put in your room become a part of the audio code. There's no magic here, if it's in your room, you hear it.

control

My approach even at it's simplist form is to gain control of the room and allow it to be itself and an active part of a systems amplification proccess. Remember this, when speakers were designed they were called acoustical loud speakers. Speaker is placed in the acoustical environment and gets the room going. It's your rooms job to sound good and the way you want. Tune your room to sound good, and your speakers will disappear and the size and range will play with ease.

learn your space

This is why I spend a lot of time taking listeners on field trips of their rooms. If you learn what your room is doing (sound wise throw away the measuring tools) you will take a big step forward in becoming in-control of your sound. No matter what technology is thrown at you, the bottom line is creating the sound you enjoy.

when the time is right

As you say, kick back and enjoy till something starts to bug you, or there is something that you want to experience, at that point there are plenty of listeners and designers who will give you ideas, but remember this as one more hint. As you read up on acoustics look to see if the person giving advice is talking frequencies or talking musical notes and soundstages. Look to see if they are active listeners to rooms themselves. There are a lot of folks in this industry that can rattle off all the formulas and frequency responses in the world and make them look like they represent music, but Ron that's not music! Your stereo is about what you can do as a listener and your personal understanding of the things you are doing that allow you to make your own personal listening method work. There are a few different types of audiophiles and all have their own sales pitch (designer or hobbyist). You want to be a guy who talks brands, you will find them. Those who talk theory, you will find them as well. Than there are listeners, and this is where you have to decide things like levels of listening and performance (BTW has nothing to do with cost). I think your doing a good job of going about things. Your asking a lot of questions and keeping on target. In time things will become more clear as to how far you wish to go and will meet the people who can get you there, and that my friend is golden.

So don't be confused, in a short time (as you are off to a good start) you will become that master of your own system and listening practices.

Now I have an important audiophile question for you. Are my girls cute? http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/t289-get-tuned-videos

:) have fun!

michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/

Btw great system you have there.
My room looked the same as your in the beginning...meaning the walls are bare/empty. The sound was still nice if I listened from 6 feet because at that distance you're listening to the speakers mainly but if I sit back on the couch at the other end of the room...well the bare walls come into play and you're hearing more like 50% room and 50% speakers. I treated the wall behind the speakers with professional sound absorbers (not the 5 $ things on ebay). The company selling them provided a graph showing what frequency they were most effective so you can order thicker/slimmer panels depending on the results you want to achieve.
As predicted my problem was in the mids and highs.The back wall treatment helped but wasn't a huge night/day improvement although even my wife noticed it right away. Less harshness and more focused soundstage.
Next I treated the left wall which is close to the left speaker in the 1st reflection point. I bought what looks like a painting (image of headphones) but it actually is an acoustic foam...so it looks rather nice instead of the recording studio look of most panels.
Also added a bass trap but I didn't have any major issues w bass ( lucky I know )....also minimal improvement...I could only hear the difference on few tracks out of my entire collection...still totally worth it.
It?s small things here and there...but when you put them together IT DOES SOUND A LOT BETTER.