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July 26, 2015 - 7:33pm
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Preamp: Should I Upgrade My McCormick MLD or Replace?
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I am not sure if the upgrade is the best value. You can buy a used LD-2 for less than $1000 and that upgrade will not be an improvement vs. the LD-2. If you really love McCormick, troll eBay or Audiogon for a used one.
Alternatively, kudos to you on your choice or network player. I love the N-50 and think it is a superb quality player and value. Additionally, Vincent makes an outstanding power amp.
If you opt against McCormick you have a few very good choices. Vincent makes two hybrid pre-amps - the SA 31 for $699 and the SA 31MK for $1699. They would seem like a natural fit to go with your power amp.
Additionally, the Parasound Halo P5 is available for $1095 and is Stereophile Recommended Component. I listened to this on Friday and it is a nice unit. Neutral
AudioAdvisor sells both Parasound and Vincent. They can offer a POV on which would better suit your power amp. Additionally, they have a demo of the P5 for $960 at the moment.
One other approach, and this would be contingent on you being in the return window on that Pioneer Elite N-50. Cambridge Audio offer network players with built in preamps. The CXN is $1099 and the Azur 851N is $1799. These are airplay enabled devices and are selling like hotcakes. The CXN gets a 5 star rating from WhatHiFi and the Azur 851N is the flagship unit from Cambridge.
These should have slightly nicer DACs than the Pioneer as both are balanced and using a dual chip implementation. They are AirPlay enabled and have Spotify built in. I love the N-50 but I like these units more. Again, all dependent on you being in the return window for the N-50.
Good luck and I hope this helps.
bierfeldt, thanks for the info. I purchased my N-50 new in box on ebay about 5 weeks ago so a return is not an option. I phoned AudioAdvisor this afternoon and they recommended the Vincent SA 31 MK. Not quite sure if that's because it's the more expensive option or not.
I'm quite intrigued by the Azur 851N and I imagine I could unload the N-50 on ebay for a couple hundred bucks. I'm slightly unsure about the inputs on the 851N and would probably benefit from some time on the phone with someone from Crutchfield or Cambridge. I'm still pretty new to the whole "network audio" thing.
I'll be sad to see the N-50 go if I get the 851N. It's such a nice little player and I only have $350 in it!
If you can, give Kevin at Upscale Audio a call. I talked to him on Friday and I have never spoken with a person who is more knowledgeable. He is a Vincent dealer and can offer you an honest perspective on how it will pair with your amp. Additionally, on Friday he had an open box of the Mystere ca21
http://www.upscaleaudio.com/mystere-ca21-preamplifier/
The price he quoted would be in your range and this thing is elite. I went to a dealer he suggested and just bought an Ayre Acoustics preamp or I would have bought it. He is in California so that dictates his business hours.
Second thought, the Cambridge is sweet. I am seriously considering one as a replacement for my Marantz NA7004 network player for a couple reasons. The DAC should be brilliant. Cambridge has a reputation for making fabulous DACs and the flagship unit should be magnificent. Second, it is fully balanced and the Ayre I just bought does really well with fully balanced equipment. However, I will not be using the preamp function and I do not know how good it is. In general, Cambridge is superb but I don't know how it will pair with the Vincent. The upside is, 30 day return policy at Crutchfield.
One final comment. I do not believe Audio Advisor would push something just because it is most expensive. I will say, I have not bought anything from them but I have bought from Crutchfield, Needle Doctor and Music Direct and those three have never steered me toward the most expensive unit I was considering unless they thought it was the best. I can't imagine that Audio Advisor would behave differently as a big part of their success is dictated be their objectivity in these matters. My hunch is that they believe that Vincent will deliver the best sound paired with your Vincent power amp. I will say, I thought that too when I recommended it.
Well, right or wrong, I just ordered the Cambridge 851N. I figured my old JVC player could benefit from a new DAC so in the long run, I won't need to purchase another player if the new converter really is excellent. Surprisingly, it has an optical output. I really wish the 851N had two pair of RCA outs but, my sub will accept XLR cables so, I'm keeping my fingers crossed...
It should be here on Friday. It's pretty hot here in Ohio so I may have to stay inside this weekend playing with my new toy :) I'll let you know my impressions after a week or so of playing with it.
Thanks again.
Congratulations....I am really curious what your opinion is.
I wanted to make sure that the XLRs worked in all circumstances so I contacted Cambridge's customer service. They got back to me and said all outputs work all the time. You should have no trouble with the XLR outputs with your sub and in fact, XLR outputs are typically superior and quieter than RCAs so that really is a bonus for you.
Like a kid on Christmas Eve, I updated my browser today until my new network player was delivered at 3pm. I let it sit in the lobby until I was finished with work. I loaded the box carefully in to my trunk, stopped over to my parents for dinner and to talk about their recent trip to Alaska.
8:10 pm, work is done, belly is full. It's officially time to get down to business. I set the large box on the floor. I carefully open the outer box and see the Russian nesting box inside. I remove it, open it, and see another box. I open it and finally see the cloth "Cambridge Audio" sleeve surrounding my latest purchase. I began to tug on the soft open cell foam to remove it from the tight grasp of the cardboard box (man this thing is boxed well).
I removed the unit (with foam still around the ends) and rotated 90° to place it on my kitchen table to further remove the packaging. At that time, I noted a strange "klunk" coming from under the cloth sleeve. Huh? I continued to unwrap the unit and every time I made a sharp move, I was rewarded with more "klunk". Once fully in the open, I grabbed the unit with both hands and turned it upside down. KLUNK!
No way!!! I was expecting to "break the unit in" this weekend and it would seem that the shipper/packer/gremlin has already "broken it" for me. Without even removing the cord or the owners manual from their bags, I called Crutchfield and obtained a RMA label and ordered another unit.
It's not often at my age that I truly look forward to a material purchase and long for it's arrival however, this was one of those times. I SHOULD have another unit by Wednesday...
I know that feeling. I hope round 2 is better.
Unit arrived safe and sound and has been burning in for 4 days straight. They recommend 36 hours so, I should be safe to pass judgment. However, this is just going to be about the general function since I can't seem to sit down and critically listen for differences yet. I also fear that I won't have the proper vocabulary but I'll cross that bridge when I get there.
The unit is certainly well constructed. Set up was extremely simple and I was up and running in about 5 minutes. It actually took me longer to unbox it than it did to hook it up. It immediately wanted to do an update so I let it do that. I was initially VERY unhappy with the interface with my phone but after a full day of using it, the process makes sense. The display on the screen is nice and it does a fine job of displaying album art but, I've turned the display off and find that I just use my phone for control and artist info.
One change that I immediately noticed was a change in bass through my SVS SB13 Ultra Sub. The sub was initially hooked up with RCA's and now is getting signal through XLR cables. It wasn't just a simple volume change, it was total sonic change. I'm still messing with the sub adjustments so I can't comfortably say that it's where I want it again.
Of major disappointment is how coarse the volume control is. The volume control runs 0-30 in a value increment of 1. I've sent a request to CA to see if they would be able to make an update to put half steps in to help correct the issue. We'll see...
One thing is certian, as much as I like the N50 player, this thing is so much nicer! I REALLY LIKE that I can select my internet radio based on signal quality. Just select 320 and search. It's awesome! For the most part, the 320 stations sound really good. I've found LINN Jazz is a favorite of mine and I was never a big Jazz fan before finding it on the network player. It's actually the station I've been using to burn the unit in while I'm at work and going to bed. I've found that I just leave it on when I get up and when I come home.
I have become a premium Spotify member. First 3 months are $0.99 so I figured, what the heck, I'll give it a shot. The interface with the 851N is spectacular! I stream from my phone and have had ZERO issues with dropping anything. No jumping, no skipping, no interuptions of any kind. Spotify is actually great! When I lived in Pittsburgh, I had two vehicles broken in to and lost quite a few CD's. I've been listening to a bunch of old stuff I've been missing. Quality on some stuff is sub par but some of it actually sounds pretty good. They don't have everything I lost but they have a lot of it.
During break in, I played Roger Waters Amused to Death on CD and found some of his voice inflections sharp. I never remember that being an issue before. I need to go back and test those passages again but I've been having so much fun with the internet Radio and Spotify, I can't seem to break away long enough to get back to it. I plan on playing CD, FLAC file and Spotify of the same song and note any differences. I will report back when I can get that accomplished.
If you have any questions about function, please let me know. Right now, I'm quite pleased with the purchase and it's function.
What will be interesting is how you feel about the preamp functionality through time and how it sounds. To me, the best part of this is if after about 3 weeks you don't like it, you ship it back.
First, that harshness on Amused To Death may be from the newness of the unit. Alternatively, it may the solid state nature of the preamp paired with that hybrid amp. Finally, it might be that the DAC on the Cambridge is different enough that it just sounds that different. I use ATD as one of my reference discs and it is a great one to tune your system in with.
Glad to hear your initial reaction is positive. I hope you are happy with it thought time and that CA addresses the volume control issue.
Good luck and good listening
While I'm thinking about it, I did a test with ATD using Spotify and my CD copy. Track 10, the wailing guitar that starts ~2:01 - 2:15 with the reverb over your right shoulder, is now more shrill than I ever remember it being with my McCormick hooked up to my Acurus A250. Now this MAY BE the simple fact that I have it turned up slightly louder than I normally did with the McC but I really don't think so. His vocal passage at 3:01 is also a tad harsh.
Both passages are tamed down when playing on Spotify so I have to presume this is due to the lack of frequency response, from what I guess is an MP3 file. I have also noted a VERY SLIGHT reduction in low frequency between the two sources.
For this particular CD, I have the volume set at 20, with the max being 30. My listening room is 12x15' with ~8' between me and the speakers with ~2' between my head and the wall behind me.
I've also been toying with the idea of picking up a pair of the KEF LS50's but I can't hear them ahead of time.
I may have to go through and hook the old system up to compare those passages however, it will be difficult to get an exact volume compairison since the McCormick is a full manual volume.
the fact you are hearing a difference between Spotify and your CD and Spotify sounds better is interesting. What would be more conclusive would be ripped FLAC files from your CD vs the CD. If those sound different and the FLAC files sound better, my guess is it's your CD player. 320K MP3s which is what Spotify streams are high res and should sound the same as a CD. I would run this test on a few discs via all three sources. If the CD sounds consistently worse, problem solved. If not, we have other trouble shooting options.
All:
The reason the OP is noticing mp3's sound better than CD is simple: DACS. The DAC in his new Cambridge is simply better than the DAC in his CD Player.
Unless; of course, he is NOT using the DAC in the CD player and using it purely as a transport into the Cambridge.
Best Regards,
Ron
Ron, thanks for the input however, I am using the CD as a transport. I should have stated that in my previous post. The signal is feeding the CA DAC by way of a Audioquest Toslink. After a test this evening of playing the same passage by way of FLAC and CD, the sound quality is identical (or too close for me to discern a difference). The "benefit" of the MP3 files seem to be the truncation of the upper frequencies. I am able to get the volume and presence of the mid range without the shrill highs. I found that when I play the track on CD or FLAC, I need to adjust the volume from 20 to 18. This reduces the overall "presence" of the music though.
For example, the barking dog that appears to the right of my shoulder, is more detectable (since it is being played at a louder level), as is the bit at the end of the song when the monkey answers the phone and hears the old man singing on the other end. It has more "presence" at the higher volume because it's louder.
With MP3 (Spotify), I can play at an elevated level since the upper frequencies are "missing". Not an ideal situation. Even though it's not "ideal", in this application, it allows for a more pleasurable listening experience. I would still like to put my McCormick MLD back online and see what I get out of it but, I have no way to ensure that I'm playing the track at an identical SPL and I really think it needs to be. I've already proved to myself that the volume does change the impact of the song.
I used to have a DB meter from Radio Shack but since the move, I have no idea where it resides. I'm going to keep playing around and see where I end up. Since I got my equipment out, I've changed my Amp, Pre Amp and this evening, I even changed my speaker wire from AQ Midnight to MonoPrice 12 ga. Honestly, my ears can't tell a difference yet.
I really wish there was an "easy way" to A-B equipment. By the time I get things changed around, I've forgotten what I heard with the other gear...
If I have any revelations, I'll be sure and report back. I really do appreciate the input thus far.
Systems matching is now the remaining variable to this challenge; as the media is being processed through the exact same DAC.
At least the reason has been identified: the MP3's truncate some of the high frequency detail and resultant "harshness" when being played at the higher resolution of Redbook CD Format. This totally makes sense.
You need to correct somewhere in your digital chain why you are experiencing this analytical harshness in treble. It could be either the speakers or the AMP or remotely the PRE-AMP; or all three.
What worked for MY situation was buying from mostly the same manufacture: Creek; of which Epos, the speaker company, is related to. So I have a Creek Integrated feeding Epos Epic 2 speakers; processed through a Bryston BDA-1 DAC; which is on the analytical side, but I "cheat" and increase bass on the Creek a little and leave treble untouched. this results in a very pleasing sound signature.
Did your speakers sound bright and shrill with your previous equipment? I doubt it; as you have had them for quite awhile... so if not, then perhaps the Cambridge is too bright for your taste. If it is, I think it has tone controls. By all means, do not be afraid to USE them! Some purists think they shouldn't touch tone controls. Other people think it's fine. I am in the latter group and that is my last suggestion before perhaps trading in the new Cambridge for a more known to be mellow component. Or, maybe your speakers aren't a good match for the Cambridge.. I cannot answer that if you really are attached to the new Cambridge for other qualities and want to try to cut this harshness with either tone controls or a more mellow speaker. This hobby is full of tweaks and suggestions when integrating new equipment with existing equipment and getting everything to work together can be a challenge.
Respectfully,
Ron
Great to hear you got a result that is tangible. Ron is right, it now comes down to equipment.
I see several tests that you can conduct:
I would swap in the Arcturus amp for the Vincent. If you maintain the improved level of detail and the shrillness goes away, then it is the sound profile of the new amp that is fouling things up. If it sounds muffled, then your amp needs to be refurbished. Alternatively, if the shrillness remains, then the issue is with the Cambridge. Either the sound profile of the DAC or the preamp.
I would then turn off the preamp portion of the Cambridge and swap in the McCormick. If it still sounds shrill, then it is the DAC. If it doesn't sound shrill then it is the preamp in the Cambridge or the fact that your McCormick needs to be refurbished.
Final test would then be to run the same test with the Pioneer N-50 via a Toslink cable from your CD player. This is moot if the McCormick needs refurbishing but would be very valid if the shrillness remains through it. If shrillness goes away with the N-50 then it is clearly the Cambridge DAC.
The goal is to isolate which bit of equipment is driving the undesirable sound. My hunch is that both the Vincent and the Cambridge are much brighter than what you are used to. I found my carver equipment from that era to be much, much warmer than any solid state equipment you can buy today. It was naturally warmer and its 20 years old and grew warmer with time. Once you isolate what unit or units are creating the issue, adjustment can be made. I have a guess what the outcome is going to be, but I think you should run the tests.
This is why return policies are so important. Every variable creates a cascade effect. I bought a new power amp and tried 4 different preamps to get one that sounded good.
Alright, just a short update although I really haven't done much in the way of testing...
I did swap the Vincent out and put the Acurus in the chain. To be quite honest, I didn't note much (if any) difference at all. I honestly think the shrill passages were simply from the volume being too high. I have since been listening to a lot of different music and typically find the volume to be 15-18 now.
I continue to be "impressed" with Spotify however, I am going to give TIDAL a whirl when my LS50's arrive and I feel I have them properly set up. I put the Vincent back online. I'm really looking forward to the new speakers and hope I have the front end to make them worth my while.
I'll report back when I decide what the next step is. It's pretty bad that I haven't even been able to give a true report of the sonic quality but I don't think Spotify is the proper source to make the call. There's just SO MUCH good music to "listen" to, I'm finding it hard to actually listen in a way that isn't just about hearing the stereo signal presenting a fine soundstage. ie. I just put on TOTO Africa. Is it the best recorded or finest, most dynamic recording? No. But, I like to listen to it! Now that I type that, I kind of wish is sounded a little better. It's not terrible, just fun.
Did I mention how much I've been enjoying Jazz here lately? I never would have said that 6 months ago...
If you hear no difference between the Vincent and your old amp, it is clearly something else. It very well could be the volume level as that recording, Amused To Death, does have some hard edges. Additionally, if you are loving listening to jazz it is likely not an issue with the preamp being too solid state which I was concerned with. You would get a shrill tinny sound that would be very fatiguing when listening to horns and would likely feel compelled to take an ice pick to your ears. If you are this happy, I would not worry that much about further testing.
What I will say is that for as awesome as those LS50s are, they tend to work only in small to medium rooms. You aren't going to fill a 33' by 33' great room with sound with them. Additionally, you are probably going to want to pair them with a subwoofer as the bass response is not particularly strong. You are really going to miss out on tracks like Three Wishes on ATD.
If you opt for a sub, are going to want to find a good, sealed sub. Rel and JL Audio are the benchmarks for sealed sub performance but they tend to be very expensive. NHT, SVS and Sunfire are a notch below and deliver great performance at a super value. I personally like Sunfire HRS 8 which is $850 every day and I saw an open box on Crutchfield for $768. You will see mixed reviews on the Sunfire HRS line, largely from home theatre people. People see 1000w and expect earth shattering sound and when they get detailed, refined, subtle bass they are angry. I personally have the HRS 12 in my home theatre and have a Sunfire Tru SuperJunior in my audio system because I got it after it was discontinued for $700.
Thanks for the encouraging words. My room is 12x15 and I already have a sealed, SVS SB13-Ultra sub. Even though my Joseph Audio speakers served me well without a sub for quite a few years, I was surprised how much nicer the entire sound is with a sub.
I'm going to start with the LS50's in the same position and go from there. It's going to put them about 15" from the side walls and about 30" from the rear walls. If they need to be further from the sides, I'll have to rotate the entire system 90 degrees.
i think that is going to be very sweet sounding. Keep us posted on how things progress.
They arrived this morning, I came home and hooked them up and just let them play something while I finished my day at the shop. I came home and did some real quick A/B between them and my trustworthy Joseph Audio RM7si's.
I still find it incredibly difficult to A/B in my setup. My initial impressions were that I should have stayed off of the internet and trusted that what I heard when I auditioned the JA's back in 1996. Not in a bad way, in a way that there wasn't a night and day difference between the two. Slightly discouraged, I went ahead and pulled the JA's off of their 24" focal stands and set the KEF's in their place. I spun up some music and still had the same "meh" impression.
I sent an email to the gentleman that I purchased them from to thank him for such a wonderful transaction and then it happened. With Tori Amos singing right in front of me, one of those passages that I typically find a little bright and out of place with my JA's went off without a hitch. Just like someone found the "shrill" knob on my system and turned it down to the point that I could no longer hear it.
I still haven't spent enough time to know exactly where they'll end up but I'm pretty impressed that they do what they do with a box only 2/3's the size of my Joseph Audio's. They have slightly less low extension but with my sub, I don't notice.
The original owner stated ~150 hours of use so, they should be broken in already.
As I continue to listen, I'll write my impressions. What a neat little speaker!
It sounds like things are really coming together and you are pretty happy with this new system. Keep us posted as you continue listening and have good and bad experiences. Hopefully very few bad
Nice system you've put together.
Things are going well. I'm really enjoying the new setup. Of particular enjoyment (through Spotify) is Megan Davies, "Dark Horse" & "Take Me To Church". Zella Day "Seven Nation Army". Amos Lee. Natalie Merchant "Retrospective".
The acoustic stuff is excellent. Vocals are great. Instruments are solidly placed. Soundstage is quite impressive with these recordings. In fact, I invited my mother over for a listening session and I put her in the sweet spot and played some of my favorites.
Prior to her having a seat, she said her Bose radio has a really nice sound. I told her this was going to be a little different than what she was used to. I set the stage and told her where she could expect the guitar to be in the beginning of the track, where the first vocalist would appear and where the second singer would be located. Once she located those three, she looked at me and said "where is that coming from?". I told her it all comes from those 2 little speakers.
We were only supposed to be there for 3-4 songs. We spent an hour listening to music. I played two of her favorites (Don Williams & Conway Twitty) and she loved it. She wants to come back and have a one on one with Conway.
Now, with all that said, I would like to try Tidal. The 851N does not support it like it does Spotify. I just got a new Android phone and can exchange it through this Saturday. It's my understanding that the player is compatible with apple air play. If I get an i phone and Tidal,can I play it that way and still get FLAC quality? Would an iPad be a better way of accomplishing that?
This is a harder question to answer than I thought it would be. If you have a lossless file on your iOS device it will downscale it to CD quality 16/44.1 unless you are connected via a wire. If you stream that same file via iTunes off a computer, it will remain lossless. Tidal behaves differently as you are just passing data through the device, not housing it on your iOS device. Unfortunately, I could not find a straight answer whether Tidal or Deezer are down scaled. It makes no difference whether you use an iPhone or an iPad, they operate exactly the same way.
That being said, out in the WhatHiFi forums, tons of people are streaming Tidal via AirPlay across an iOS device. Several said they tested vs Spotify and said the results were close with the edge going to Tidal. That sounds about right.
Alternatively, great to hear that you are so happy with your new system. Your experience with this Cambridge unit is making me think this is my next DAC. It is likely I will get one of these in the spring.
I'll have an iPad here tomorrow so I hope to play with Tial here pretty soon.
I've given it ~1 month now. I purchased the ipad mini just to play with Tidal and I can't say I'm in love with it. The fact that Cambridge has an AWESOME interface with Spotify might be the actual determining factor however, I can't say that I honestly hear enough (if any) difference in quality between the two sources.
I can tell you that listening to an artist like Pink Floyd on Tidal is less than ideal since it does not support gapless playback. I thought this was going to be a moot point. It's really not.
I can fully give my seal of approval for the Spotify + 851N combo. It is a sheer joy to find and listen to music. I'm currently playing Houses of the Holy. What a deal! I can play it from my phone, my computer or the ipad. All three will control volume on the unit. The computer will also display lyrics if desired.
I feel like a little school girl here, gushing all over the place!
I haven't spun a CD in nearly a month. I haven't had the need to play any of the CD's I ripped to my external hard drive. If I want to listen to an artist I have in my CD rack, I do a quick search on Spotify and have it playing in less time than it would take me to turn on the unit, load the CD and grab my remote!
Pure audio Nirvana in Ohio!
I am very glad to hear that you are so happy with the new system. Thanks for sharing.