Alright, class, time's up. Put your pencils down and pass your papers forward.

I've had good experience with (what would be considered by most) rather cheap conditioners. First a Monster HTS 1200 and now a Chang Lightspeed 3200.

Both gave similar improvement such as subjectively cleaner sound (sound seem a little ragged when conditioner removed), better focus (e.g. imaging), and better bass definition.

I plug everything into the conditioner (incl. 150 watt/ch SS amplifier) and feel the Chang may just have the edge in performance in not softening dynamics (although the Monster didn't do so to any serious degree IMO).

I did try even cheaper surge protectors (the sort typically sold at hardware stores, Home Depot, etc.) and found they generally either did noting positive or in some cases seemed detrimental to the sound.

Never tried any expensive models in my home system.

The Entry Level already has a thread about this going, which may be a place to start...

http://forum.stereophile.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=25808&an=0&page=0#Post25808

Hi,
I use an UK manufacturer product with striking effect.
When inserted for the first time, the increase of dynamics and bas slam was quite unbelievable. Includes also spike and surge protection.

http://www.isoteksystems.com/orion.asp

FYI,

Luke Manley from VTL doesn't recommend the use of a power conditioner.

Interesting, as VTL equipment generally is demonstrated with power conditioning at shows.

VTL employs excellent, well-regulated power supplies however so power conditioning may have less of an impact on VTL equipment than others with less robust power supplies.

VTL implies that not only are the power conditioners not needed, but that they're detrimental.

Quote:
VTL implies that not only are the power conditioners not needed, but that they're detrimental.

Bryston used to say something very similar, in fact on another site a member actually published an email he received from Bryston that left little room for doubt.

These days, since they started distributing Torus power conditioners, I expect you'd be hard pressed to get then to repeat that message. Here's a link to the manufactures' claims of benefits (that you can get two via just two clicks from the a Bryston page): http://www.toruspower.com/about.htm

Just another demonstration why one should rely upon personal experiences (your ears) instead of farming manufacture claims that support personal biases; of course if you've tried PLC and percieved no effect then fine, but why then the recourse to some manufacturers' claims, recounting your own experiences is entirely sufficient (I should hope).

Quote:
VTL implies that not only are the power conditioners not needed, but that they're detrimental.

I wonder why they use power conditioners when demo'ing their equipment then?

In the past many manufacturers felt that power conditioners were a problem as many restricted current. This is no longer a problem with the newer, better products.

Do you have a source where VTL recently rejected power conditioners en masse?

There's a VTL 7.5 review on 6 moons where Luke Manley implies this.

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There's a VTL 7.5 review on 6 moons where Luke Manley implies this.

Really? Well the following extract that includes quotes (though not directly attribted to Luke Manley) does seem to support your case:

Quote:
The design team wanted a component "that would be totally unaffected by outside environmental influences ... Sonic performance should be usable, predictable and consistent regardless of AC condition, load, source components, physical vibration or digital and other external radiated noise." The result is a preamplifier "capable of driving any load with any length of cable."

Yet further on in the review the we have:

Quote:

Even with its twelve massively filtered, precision regulated power supplies, the 7.5 is sensitive to external power cables and power conditioners. Luke recommends to always plugging the 7.5 into the wall outlet first, using that as a baseline and experimenting from there. Some AC conditioners will sound better, others will sound worse as manifested by reduced dynamics, a smaller soundstage and a more two-dimensional sound quality.

Granted there's no quote here yet if we allow that the reviewer is providing an accurate representation of Luke Manley's position then it's hardly a blanket disavowal of the usage of LCs.

This is consistent with my previous impressions of Manley's thoughts on the issue.

It is fascinating to me that no matter how robust the power supply, power cords and power conditioners can still have an impact on the sound.

Here's a more direct quote:

Quote:

I understand that you recommend against using a power conditioner with the 7.5?

The 7.5 does not seem to like a line conditioner. A customer would call and say that his 7.5 sounded flat and lifeless. The user would wonder if the tube might be failing, which in this case is highly unlikely given the low current draw of the tubes. We knew that his tubes could not be wearing out so why was the unit sounding flat? I finally asked how did he have it plugged in? Sure enough, it was plugged into a power conditioner. I had the customer plug it directly in the wall and re-listen. In our tests we learned that the 7.5 is very revealing of the power cable. Insert a high quality cord and it is audible. Plug it into the wall and bingo, it immediately sounds better. It might not be logical since this is a precision regulated power supply. Certainly a conditioner should not make it sound inferior but with the 7.5, plugging it directly into the wall often gives the best sound. Therefore, we recommend starting from the wall and using that as the baseline. You may want to try conditioners, that's fine, but don't assume that a conditioner will always make it better. Our reference is a Nordost Thor, not a conditioner but a power distribution system used with Valhalla power cables.

If I remember correctly, Manley mentioned something similar within a Stereophile review or interview... I'll try to find it

Quote:
Here's a more direct quote:

Quote:

I understand that you recommend against using a power conditioner with the 7.5?

The 7.5 does not seem to like a line conditioner. A customer would call and say that his 7.5 sounded flat and lifeless. The user would wonder if the tube might be failing, which in this case is highly unlikely given the low current draw of the tubes. We knew that his tubes could not be wearing out so why was the unit sounding flat? I finally asked how did he have it plugged in? Sure enough, it was plugged into a power conditioner. I had the customer plug it directly in the wall and re-listen. In our tests we learned that the 7.5 is very revealing of the power cable. Insert a high quality cord and it is audible. Plug it into the wall and bingo, it immediately sounds better. It might not be logical since this is a precision regulated power supply. Certainly a conditioner should not make it sound inferior but with the 7.5, plugging it directly into the wall often gives the best sound. Therefore, we recommend starting from the wall and using that as the baseline. You may want to try conditioners, that's fine, but don't assume that a conditioner will always make it better. Our reference is a Nordost Thor, not a conditioner but a power distribution system used with Valhalla power cables.

If I remember correctly, Manley mentioned something similar within a Stereophile review or interview... I'll try to find it

So he uses "a Nordost Thor, not a conditioner but a power distribution system used with Valhalla power cables". Oh, OK, but wait, let's examine how Nordost describes the Thor:

Quote:

The Thor project has been a joint collaboration between Nordost and UK mains power specialist IsoTek. Thor is an elegant, full rack width, 6-way AC mains power distribution unit featuring sophisticated circuitry for dealing with mains noise and voltage spikes without limiting dynamic headroom. The unit is wired throughout with award winning Nordost Valhalla power cable to achieve optimum signal transfer and performance.

So it feartures "sophisticated circuitry for dealing with mains noise"... but isn't that what lots of manufacturers of PLCs claim?

Anyway perhaps someone should recommend he try a Furutech Power Distributor, perhaps a e-TP609E. It definitely doesn't have sophisticated circuitry for dealing with mains noise, they merely coat the bottom of the box (internal) with some gunk they call "GC-303 EMI-Absorbent". He can even use it with Valhalla power cables. Who knows might be even better that the Thor, it does seem to be closer to an ideal "power distribution" system.

Doesn't this bring up the question of whether your AC line is clean or dirty? Has anyone researched whether there is a problem at their site before buying a PLC?

The last time I looked (a long time ago), the waveform looked like a good sinewave, but I don't have a distortion analyzer or a spectrum analyzer to tell if harmonics are present. I could not see any noise spikes. Since I have not performed complete research on this, the jury's still out. So, I go merrily along thinking nothing's wrong with my AC, for now.