jake_27
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Pioneer HPM 150s restored - help on amp selection please
bierfeldt
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Those speakers are spec'd to operate down to 3 ohms. You NEED a serious, high current amp that can handle the kind of power draw that those Pioneers require or you will be blowing fuses with deep bass during home theatre viewing.

The majority of AV Receivers will not operate continuously below 4 ohms. If you consider an AVR, look for THX certification or a specific call out that it can handle 2 ohm impedance's.

For that reason, I would seriously consider separates.

You could get a Marantz AV7701 Pre/Pro for $1199 from Crutchfield. That will give you the latest, greatest surround technology excluding Dolby Atmos and has built in Audyssey MultiEQ XT. I would then look at a Sunfire TGA-7201 for $2499. 200w of continuous power into 8 ohms across 7 channels and can deliver a continuous 2 ohm signal. You will likely have to buy from a local retailer, but it sounds fabulous for the money.

I would then get an Oppo BDP 103 for $509 which is a superb Blu-ray player for the money. You could step up to the BDP 105 Darbee which has superior video processing, but you are spending $800 more for improved video.

This would mind bogglingly good performance in multi-channel and outstanding performance in 2 channel. I have an older edition of the Marantz pre / pro and power amp. I love it and get excellent 2.1 performance. You will want to run your 2 channel audio in Direct or Pure Direct mode and I would be shocked if you aren't extremely happy with the performance.

You would need to spend a little extra for balanced connections from the pre/pro to the power amp. You do not need to spend a ton of money on balanced cables, about $20 each is plenty as you will not improve performance with expensive balanced cables.

All in, the above recommendation would put you at about $4300 before tax.

Do the Klipsch Reference II's that you have blend well with the Pioneers? That is the only other concern I would have is that you need to get a center channel that blends well with them and I am not familiar enough with the sound of the pioneers to judge that.

commsysman
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I suggest that you get the NAD T758 receiver; that should be just what you need.

jake_27
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Thanks much for your thoughts! I'm liking what I'm hearing, now to go find a place that has these components so I can check them out. Is Dolby Atmos worth spending a little more for? The Klipsch does not quite seem to blend with the Pioneers, but better than I expected. I thought maybe some careful eq on the channel might help. Pioneer sound, even on this amp currently is far more dynamic and atmospheric. I'd say almost an old-fashioned warmth.

jake_27
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Commsysman, sounds like I need an amp rated for 2ohms since my speakers are 3ohm. The NAD T758 is only 4/8ohm rated.

bierfeldt
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Atmos is going to add height as a dimension to your sound and you will typically add in ceiling speakers. to offer a more room filling sound. It means additional amplification and the latest greatest processors. We are like 6 months in so who knows if it is going to survive as a technological advance.

Regarding the center channel, Klipsch have a reputation for being bright. Whether or not the Pioneer's are warm or neutral might be being clouded by that touch of brightness.

One AVR worth considering is Integra. Integra is Onkyo's pro line but carries THX certification, and most importantly is rated for 3 ohms and part of that THX bench test is to be able to deliver 2 ohms. At $1300, the DTR 40.6 is a very strong value while the DTR 50.6 is $1700. The primary difference is 20w per channel. Of the 5 major home theatre installers in my area that I have talked to, 4 of them use Integra, 1 uses Marantz.

In general, I think Onkyo's lower priced stuff is mediocre to bad. The high end stuff sounds crisp and very detailed. If anything, I feel that it sounds a bit too clinical but that can be offset by the warmth of your speakers.

This would free up some money for a new center channel and surrounds. Given that you are saying the sound profile is a touch warm, you might want to try the Wharfedale Jade C1 and Jade SR surrounds. The C1 is $1099 and the SR surrounds are $999. They are available from Music Direct who has a 60 day return policy.

If those seem too warm, you could try the Monitor Audio Gold GX 150 C for $1095 and the Gold GX FX surround speakers for $1095. If feel they are a touch more neutral than the Jade's and are available from AudioAdvisor with a 30 day return policy.

Both are awesome lines of speakers and I love how both sound.

That would still keep you on your $4000 budget even with an Oppo BDP 103. I do not think the Integra would be quite as nice as Marantz/Sunfire combo. It seems like most of the pro installers use Integra because is has Audyssey Pro on it standard and will accommodate up to 32 seating locations. That being said, I would probably rather have the Integra receiver with a new center channel and surrounds for home theatre.

Regarding the power, 99% of the time you will not tax a normal AVR to the point of blowing a fuse. Almost never with music. Where you overdraw is in home theatre. Think of watching Top Gun, Jurassic Park, Saving Private Ryan...where you have those big booms and those big bass sounds which are part of what makes home theatre so cool and fun. That is where you need that power to deliver the lower impedance as that is when those speakers are hitting those peaks.

Technology has advanced and most modern speakers don't draw power the way some of the old Infinity/JBL/Pioneer etc... speakers did. These have a nominal impedance of 6.3 ohms but will hit 3 ohm peaks. It isn't so much that back in the old days they made them better, plenty of older amps struggled at lower impedances.

Incidentally, I am familiar with this issue because I have a pair of Infinity Kappa 8.1s which hit 1.8 ohm peaks. I had them bi-amped with two Carver power amps and changed fuses in the power amps about once a year due to having the volume up just a touch too much during a movie.

bierfeldt
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In the "full disclosure power statement"

NAD confirms that they can handle 2 ohms as the power supply is adequate. A whole section addresses 2 ohm impedance if you scroll down.

https://support.nadelectronics.com/hc/en-us/articles/201906277-NAD-Full-Disclosure-Power

What is more frustrating is they will not tell you what version of Audyssey they are using in the T 758 though I am 100% certain it is not Audyssey MultEQ XT since they are explicit that that is included in the T 777 and they only say Audyssey in the T 758.

This is important in multi-channel. Audyssey will help blend the sound in home theatre and will help integrate speakers from two different companies and you should get a closer match with it than without it.

NAD has been slow in integrating newer technology into their products. They only include newer versions of Audyssey on their $3000 and above receiver. No AirPlay, no streaming services like Pandora or Spotify. Additionally, the video processing isn't in the same league as Marantz or Onkyo.

I suppose this help's burnish their credentials as a music first AVR but it makes it dramatically less functional compared to it's peers.

That being said, with the exception of AirPlay, an Oppo BluRay can provide other streaming services. My bigger concern is the Audyssey version and the fact that the 758 lacks even MultiEQ XT, much less MultiEQ XT32.

Personally, I would go spend some time with the Integra line and the NADs in multi-channel and 2 channel. Additionally, I would probably try and buy from a place that has a return policy so that you can really listen in your home.

jake_27
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Bierfeldt, you've been very helpful already. Thanks for your detailed responses. I found a couple regional NAD places where I will check things out, and also a place in Seattle that has Marantz. I have to say the reviews for the T 758 sound pretty breathtaking. But I still like the Marantz/sunfire combo idea, not a little because I've always liked the idea of preamp/amp setups.

I don't mind using an SPL meter to balance the speakers generally. How much improvement is there from the basic NAD Audyssey up to the Multi XT or XT32? I don't really need up to 32 focused listening positions, its usually just a couple people watching movies. As you mention, Oppo provides the streaming services I'd be looking to use. What are the benefits, besides simplified cabling, into having the video processing in the receiver? I currently plug my Blu-ray into my Panasonic directly.

bierfeldt
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I have switched receivers from an older Onkyo with a dated version of Audyssey to my current Denon with Multi EQ XT. That is the best example I can as it is using the exact same speakers in the exact same space though in a room with bad speaker placements.

Without Audyssey enabled, the Onkyo sounded bad. Think 1995 Dolby Pro Logic bad where the surrounds are just distracting. With Audyssey enabled, it took something that was bordering on annoying and turned it into a relatively pleasant listening experience. The surrounds were a hair distracting, but part of that was just the awful speaker placement I need to deal with in this room.

I swapped in the Denon, and post Audyssey setup, the sound was more refined and balanced. It has more calculations and does a better job of measuring the distance between speakers, taking into account the size of the speakers. The Onkyo sounded good where the Denon Sounded very good. How much of that was a Denon receiver vs the Onkyo and Audyssey vs Audyssey Multi EQXT, I don't know.

Audyssey version makes more of a difference as you introduce more variables. If your room is poorly laid out, if your speaker placement is not optimal, if you have a weird shaped room, if you are mixing different speakers. The more oddities you have, the more value you should place on a more advanced version of Audyssey.

In my theatre where I have my Marantz pre/pro:
1 my room is not ideal
2 my speaker placement is perfect relative to what THX recommends for 7.1 setup
3 I am using the proper speaker for each location in the 7.1 surround - dipole surrounds and front firing rears
4 My subwoofer is in an optimal location
5 All speakers are from the same manufacturer

It sounds so good, I can't imaging that XT32 would make much of a difference, I just have XT.

Couple other notes -

I love how NAD equipment sounds and think that the T 758 is a wonderful receiver. That being said, I specifically rejected NAD due to its lack of features as I need to make everything really easy for my wife to use and I have the same interface in all for of my listening rooms. I have Marantz or Denon equipment in all 4 listening rooms.

2nd point, I am personally biased in favor of separates for 2 reasons - I like maximum flexibility and feel that I have way more with separates compared to a receiver as new tech comes out. Second is that my first system was separates and I bought into the idea that more stuff in one box degrades sound at an early age.

On Marantz Power amps - if you go talk to a Marantz dealer, they will likely advocate that you consider a Marantz power amp. The issue is that the Marantz MM line of power amps really doesn't do well with lower impedance speakers. I am considering replacing my MM8003 with a Sunfire because I find that the Marantz just lacks the power I want. There are dozens of other companies that make power amps including NAD. I recommend Sunfire because I have personal experience with it and I am a big fan of the designer who was a guy named Bob Carver.

Good luck to you and happy listening.

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