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Kloss
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Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers

Whats your stand on modern horn designs? Have you heard any ? would you even want too? Have they made progress? interested in your thoughts for I have my own.

ludwigvan968
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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers

I have heard a lot of different horns over my time. I have liked the rethms a lot, though they are a bit under weighted. I have also liked designs like the Rehdekos, however they are less horn like, but none the less play music wonderfully...

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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers

Hello Kloss

I have heard the Clasic Audio reproduction Hartsfields and there own, Edgar Horn Titan and Slimlines. My favorites were the Edgar Titans followed very closely by the Hartsfields. Would like to here the Geedes horn two way he has as I think he may be on to something. I own dynamic hybrid system all home built so I have tried several CD and exponetial types mostly CD. I like the CD horns short throats but the exponentials used over a limited bandwidth can sound very good. Have they made progress well I think so but the Tractrix in the Edgar's isn't exactly new. So I am not sure it's the horns themselves or the implimentation and sensitivity to use in a home setting that has some systems sounding so good,

Rob

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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers

Fullrange horn speakers or what do you mean?

I've listened to some horn constructions and I've liked some and disliked some...

One of the best speakers that I've been together with is the Acapella Violon (http://www.acapella.de/german/violonMKIII.htm) with the fantastic plasma tweeter. Its a wonderful speaker from the bass to the tweeter, and the horn-loaded midrange is really great. Probably the only construction that coule keep up with the plasma tweeter.

// Patrik

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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers

My only experience is with klipsch, having owned cornwalls, and klipschorns. Their newer models (Reference and Synergy lines) tend to sound smoother than the old PWK designs, but of course they don't cover as much of the frequency range with the horns, either. Still, as "modern" horn designs, I feel they are competitive with anything in their price class. On the other hand, klipsch' older designs, the "Heritage" series, are still world-class competitors, at least, with the right set-up.

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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers


Quote:
Whats your stand on modern horn designs? Have you heard any ? would you even want too? Have they made progress? interested in your thoughts for I have my own.

I last listened to a pair horns in the Avantgarde New York Showroom a couple of years ago. An enormous sweep of sound, but still more colored than I would like, due to the fact that each horn unit has to cover a wider bandwidth than optimal.

I have been thinking for a while that the horn, with its predictable reflections from the mouth, is an ideal candidate for DSP correction.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers


Quote:

Quote:

I have been thinking for a while that the horn, with its predictable reflections from the mouth, is an ideal candidate for DSP correction.

Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

How is DSP going to fix mouth/ throat reflections?

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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I have been thinking for a while that the horn, with its predictable reflections from the mouth, is an ideal candidate for DSP correction.

How is DSP going to fix mouth/ throat reflections?

A digital equalizer can be thought of as adding "anti-reflections." Thus the effects of the mouth/throat reflections can be nulled out.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

jdm56
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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers

Unfortunately, many horn devotees would never allow an EQ in the signal path and most shun anything digital besides! -Their loss, imho.

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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers


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Unfortunately, many horn devotees would never allow an EQ in the signal path and most shun anything digital besides! -Their loss, imho.

Some "hornies" do seem to shun all that is digital, but not all I'm loving my DEQX-p and horns. Although I would probably be shunned now.

dan

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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers


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I have been thinking for a while that the horn, with its predictable reflections from the mouth, is an ideal candidate for DSP correction.

Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

I know of no digital Eq that can counteract these reflections. Please be more specific. Which model DSP/software are you referring to? This is like saying DSP can eliminate side wall reflections in a two channel system. Nope.

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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers


Quote:

Quote:

I have been thinking for a while that the horn, with its predictable reflections from the mouth, is an ideal candidate for DSP correction.

Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

I know of no digital Eq that can counteract these reflections. Please be more specific. Which model DSP/software are you referring to? This is like saying DSP can eliminate side wall reflections in a two channel system. Nope.

I am not sure I get your point. It is indeed possible to eliminate side-wall reflections using digital signal processing. The problem is that the elimination only works for one specific point in space; everywhere else in the listening room, the correction will not work and the sound will be worse. There is also the point that the position of the room boundaries is arbitrary, thus some kind of analysis of the reflections has to be done by the end user.

By contrast, the horn is a fixed system and can be completely characterized by its impulse response. I would have thought that the sound emanating from the mouth can thus be corrected by processing that impulse response with the appropriate corrective impulse response (a process called "convolving.")

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers


Quote:

Quote:
I last listened to a pair horns in the Avantgarde New York Showroom a couple of years ago. An enormous sweep of sound, but still more colored than I would like, due to the fact that each horn unit has to cover a wider bandwidth than optimal.


Perhaps Mr. Atkinson would elaborate on that

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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers

>By contrast, the horn is a fixed system and can be completely characterized by its impulse response. I would have thought that the sound emanating from the mouth can thus be corrected by processing that impulse response with the appropriate corrective impulse response (a process called "convolving.")

The reflections result in two-dimensional wavefronts at the mouth of the horn. The transfer function correction that can be applied by DSP is one-dimensional is it not? It would seem that DSP correction can be done for a line through the wavefront, and perhaps for a single direction in the far field, but my imagination has not yet caught up with how this would work in all directions? I am not disputing the claim, just saying that I don't yet understand it.

dcrowe
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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers

>>By contrast, the horn is a fixed system and can be completely characterized by its impulse response. I would have thought that the sound emanating from the mouth can thus be corrected by processing that impulse response with the appropriate corrective impulse response (a process called "convolving.")

>The reflections result in two-dimensional wavefronts at the mouth of the horn. The transfer function correction that can be applied by DSP is one-dimensional is it not? It would seem that DSP correction can be done for a line through the wavefront, and perhaps for a single direction in the far field, but my imagination has not yet caught up with how this would work in all directions? I am not disputing the claim, just saying that I don't yet understand it.

Upon further reflection (!) I think I have answered my own question. While I am used to correcting arbitrary wavefronts with two-dimensional arrays, the wavefront you are correcting is deterministically created by the one-dimesional signal, so yes, it should work. The phase and amplitude corrections will vary, perhaps greatly, with frequency.

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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers

I have tried most types of system loudspeaker combinations.I keep going back to 3-4way horn systems.I too feel single driver back horn loudspeakers to be colored sounding but I can see why many like them. But for me not my cup of tea. There is much disinformation out on horns many take this as fact and will argue.This wrong information kept me from trying horns in my home systems for many years.I took a leap of faith and purchased a AG loudspeaker system years ago and while not perfect, what is? It lead me to far greater enjoyment and performance that I ever got out of conventional systems. But as always YMMV

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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers


Quote:
>>By contrast, the horn is a fixed system and can be completely characterized by its impulse response. I would have thought that the sound emanating from the mouth can thus be corrected by processing that impulse response with the appropriate corrective impulse response (a process called "convolving.")

>The reflections result in two-dimensional wavefronts at the mouth of the horn. The transfer function correction that can be applied by DSP is one-dimensional is it not? It would seem that DSP correction can be done for a line through the wavefront, and perhaps for a single direction in the far field, but my imagination has not yet caught up with how this would work in all directions? I am not disputing the claim, just saying that I don't yet understand it.

Upon further reflection (!) I think I have answered my own question. While I am used to correcting arbitrary wavefronts with two-dimensional arrays, the wavefront you are correcting is deterministically created by the one-dimesional signal, so yes, it should work. The phase and amplitude corrections will vary, perhaps greatly, with frequency.

We are, of course, talking about axially symmetrical horns. I haven't thought about DSP correction of biradial horns.

John Atkinson
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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers

>We are, of course, talking about axially symmetrical horns. I haven't thought about DSP correction of biradial horns.

It should, in theory I think, work for biradial as well, although it may be more sensitive to non-repeatability of the transfer function due to driver nonlinearity and mechanical vibration modes that are a function of how hard it is driven.

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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers


Quote:

I last listened to a pair horns in the Avantgarde New York Showroom a couple of years ago. An enormous sweep of sound, but still more colored than I would like, due to the fact that each horn unit has to cover a wider bandwidth than optimal.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

That was a fun room experience!

This could be taken wrong, but I find horns sound better the farther away I get. Sidestepping the obvious joke about, "Yeah, a mile away..." I think it takes a certain distance from the speaker for the sound to integrate because horn drivers end up so far apart by virtue of having to be horns.

The Avantgardes have never sounded right to me in small spaces, and produced that "horn pop" ear sensation with quick upward changes in volume.

But when I've heard Avatgarde's system with their giant subwoofers in a large room, sitting maybe 20 or more feet away, they really and truly impressed me. They had that "effortless" sound that is quite relaxing to listen to. (What is it about feeling that we are listening to a speaker that doesn't seem to be working at it that we find so enjoyable?)

That being said, perhaps they made vocal images sound like they were emanating from a 15 foot tall version of Van Morrison - maybe sounding more like a club setting than a "Van is in the room with me" feeling.

As a lark, I bought a pair of Klipsch La Scala speakers and am going to experiment with some of the newer crosovers and have a go at damping the horns and the portals where the horns meet the cabinet and see what happens.

At worst, horns are great toys and seem to lend themselves to some fun DIY projects!

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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers

Hi, Romy, pleased to meet you.

My take on the distance being important in that last example was based on having heard the Avantgardes up close and finding they did not seem to integrate well for me.

Maybe they have some acoustic equivalent of a an optical focal point?

Farther back, I wasn't distracted by hearing distinct sources of sound and frequency and just got the whole wash of their sound.

As I mentioned, the imaging was a little on the large size - and kind of diffuse, now that I look for more words for the experience.

In that same room, when I sat closer, I started to get the dis-integration I had experienced before - hence, my mentioning distance in that example.

You may be right, and perhaps I've never heard them set up properly for a better nearfield experience. For the kind of money they go for, my hunch is that I may never get that chance!

I also don't mean to call the La Scalas the bees knees yet, but from playing around with them I think I can relate to Avatgarde using a full round horn rather than a "horizontal" horn (pardon my amateurish word there) - the Klipsch seem height dependent for some of their frequency response. Sitting at horn level is a better high frequency experience than standing above that level.

The Klipsch do have limitations in terms of dynamic range, but again, right up until "oops, too loud" sets in, they sound like they could have kept going up up up all day. Maybe horns just get much closer to their limits without it being as noticeable as with other kinds of loudspeakers.

I'd love to hear you take on all these different horns out there and how you have set them up. I bet there's a wealth of knowledge there!

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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers

>the Klipsch seem height dependent for some of their frequency response

My roommate had LaScalas in the 80

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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers

I had a brief listen to an Avantgarde horn at Home Entertainment (HE2003 I think, the one in San Francisco), but not enough to really form definitive conclusions. The rest of my experience comes from Klipsch (see my other post for LaScalla and Corner-Horn comments).

For the last couple of years I

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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers

I own a pair of Maggie 1.6Qs but I still love Klipschorns. Like all speakers, each has strengths and weakness'

The things that resonate with me in live music that I expect from audio equipment are good transient response, wide smooth frequency response, and wide dynamic range. The K'horns excel in all 3 areas and thus sound more like true live music for me.

The Maggies aren't bad either of course. While they do excel in 2 of the 3 areas mentioned, the dynamic range can't compare to the K'horns. Fortunately the Maggies maitain proper dynamic scaling.

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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers

I have owned the best of vintage klipsch.Even modified them to get much better performance but compared to modern horns like AG, Oris ,Azura ,Edgar etc,They do sound vintage nice but vintage.Horns do seen to have more life and air to image then other designs I have messed with.I build and buy many loudspeakers keep going back to front horns.Heck even my 5 year old insists on the big horn rig to play his music.I assembled a diferant conventional system had it in the big room for a few weeks the boy kept saying play horn speakers daddy.He can even hear the diferance and to him its only music when played on the big horns.

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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers

I have owned Klipschorns since about 1980 and have no desire to change. Over that time I have used many different front ends and driving electronics. I find these speakers very dependent upon the

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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers

Is it time for a thread about what mods people have done to their Klipsch speakers?

I'm amazed by how many Klipsch owners are out here for a line that is considered so un-hi-fi.

How can so many enthusiasts be wrong?

I'm itching to mod my La Scalas!

disco paul
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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers

I know the trendy thing among some of the snobs in our hobby is to bash Klipsch. However, the heart of this thing is in my mind suppose to be about musical realism. That's probably why the Heritage line from Klipsch lives on. Over the years many trends have come and gone but they keep going.
As I've said above, the Khorns are among the closest to match what a live performance is, period.

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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers

So Iam a snob because I have found better than vintage klipsch? I tried many diferant types of electronics modified mine over time, they where good loudspeakers but time has moved on, sorry that your feelings are hurt by my statement but this is my experance.Have owned and built many 100s of loudspeakers. I also do some design for others .I have had much experance with loudspeakers gear and set up.I stand by my statement.If you like klipsch good for you but to insist others should like because you do is crazy.

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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers

Iam glad youre happy with your system and buying a klipsch was probley a good idea in 1980 not too many loudspeakers hold up so well, my lascalas where 67 vintage and in good working order after 38 years K horns 36 years old or so.But times have changed I have heard so many loudspeakers and when I owned Lascalas and khorn they where set up very well did all the right mods .I have moved on to more modern designs.Not saying Klipsch is bad just I have owned many better sounding horns some of these where also vintage.

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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers

Kloss, I didn't mean to imply you were a snob because you preferred some other speakers. It's just that there are some who seem to get nauseated when you mention Klipsch. This as opposed to saying they didn't care for some quality that they lacked compared to a speaker they liked.
Look, I don't particularly care for the sound of Martin Logans. The bass and mid-treble interface is very audibly disjointed to me. I don't get worked up about it though the way the Klipsch haters do.
Keep in mind, I own Magnepans. The wife factor and cost kept me from owning a pair of Khorns.

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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers

Sorry if I offended I too think there great loudspeakers Paul K designed some interesting cabinets etc. But times have advanced .I used to own maggies 2.7 3.6 many electrostatics and ribbons I keep going back to front horns.

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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers


Quote:
"Anti-reflections"?

Reflections are delayed in time from the original sound. This means "anti-reflections" would have to be added to the sound slightly after the original signal (path length delta). What cancels the reflection of the anti-reflection?

Stealthaxe

Couldn't you program a frequency algorhythm that includes out of phase signals planned for in advance to cancel the reflexions?

Sort of a pre-anti-reflexion kind of thing, or "electronic anti-anti reflexions?"

Kind of like room DSP done for just the horn, I would say.

Since you absolutely know the shape and characteristics of waves propogated through the horn (who's dimensions are fixed), you could pre-plan. Horn equalization?

I will leave the anti-anti-anti reflexions out of it or my head will 'splode.

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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers


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Couldn't you program a frequency algorhythm that includes out of phase signals planned for in advance to cancel the reflexions?

Sure, this is theoretically possible, but since there is a delay, you're basically going to introduce a ring component with exponential decay (for a single burst you'll need a series of corresponding [anti-[anti-[anti-....]]] bursts to completely cancel any stray effects). Unless this is done with _great_ precision I'd think you'll have more problems than you solve.

Great precision here has more to do with accurately measuring driver / horn / room interactions than the calculations themselves. A reasonable computer can do the math with no issues but you have to start with the right numbers.

Stealthaxe

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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers

I HAVE BEEN AN AVID AUDIOPHILE FOR 30 YEARS AND HAVE OWNED LOTS OF EQUIPMENT. HOWEVER, NO SPEAKER HAS EVER CAUGHT AND HELD MY INTEREST FOR SO LONG AS THE KLIPSCHORN. I HAVE HAD MANY, MANY AUDIOPHILE FRIENDS WHO HAVE OWNED REAL STATE OF THE ART SYSTEMS THAT INCLUDED VERY HIGH END SPEAKERS.IT HAS ALWAYS SEEMED TO ME THAT IN MY CIRCLE OF AUDIOPHILE FRIENDS, KLIPSCHORN OWNERS ARE NEVER TAKEN VERY SERIOUSLY.BUT, TO MY EARS, AT THE PRICE POINT THAT I AM ABLE TO AFFORD, THEY ARE THE CLEAR CHOICE. I WOULD DARE SAY THAT MOST SUBSCRIBERS TO STEREOPHILE, ABSOLUTE SOUND, ETC. ALSO FEEL THAT THE KLIPSCHORN OR MOST HORN SPEAKERS IN GENERAL ARE NOT REALLY "HIGH END". ANY THOUGHTS OR OPINIONS ON THIS TOPIC WOULD BE WELCOMED.THANKS FOR VIEWING MY REPLY!

Jim Tavegia
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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers

I have heard very remarkable sound from Klpsch speakers especially when driven by good tube gear. If you have a harsh sounding transistor amp they can be murder to listen to.

I called on the older Mac dealer in Birmingham, AL, Likis Audio, and they had an older pair of Klipsch Cornwalls that I came close to buying. They had them forever and could not move them. I recommended to them that they buy a Jolida JD100, 100 watt/ch EL34 based tube amp. They did and sold the set in 24 hours. They were shocked.

Every writer at "Phile" talks about system synergy and it should not be some obscure idea that only applies to some things. It is critical in trying to make all the pieces fit and get the most out of the "system".

The Audio Analogue Cherubini tuner is one of the best I had heard, a beautiful clear, almost tube like sound. The customer just demanded Likis find him a vacuum tube tuner...until I got them a AA Cherubini and he fell in love. Go figure. It is not what it is...it is what it does.

I envy all the gear the writers at "Phile" get to listen to. Now that some of the Klipsch Classic models are being made again, JA had informed me that AD is trying to get a demo set of new Klipschorns for a review. I hope he can.

I really enjoyed the articles on the Fisher 500 and the Bozaks. Like many I always dreamed of of owning the Bozaks and an old Empire 598 turntable.

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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers

When you consider the sensitivity of many horn speakers, you almost have to consider single-ended tube gear. I've seen some with over 100db sensitivity. For most of my listening, I would need about 1/4 watt of power to drive them.

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Re: Opinon of modern horn loudspeakers

I HAVE 1993 K-HORNS IN WALNUT FINISH THAT I PURCHASED BRAND NEW. RELATIVELY LOW HOURS ALWAYS DRIVEN BY PREMIUM ELECTRONICS. I HAVE DECIDED TO PURCHASE BRAND NEW KLIPSCHORNS THAT ARE NOW AVAILABLE IN CHERRY FINISH WITH SOME SLIGHT MODIFICATIONS.SO, I'LL BE OFFERING MY '93 HORNS FOR SALE.QUESTION, WHAT WOULD BE A FAIR PRICE TO PUT ON THESE. I WOULD RATE THEM AN 8 OR 9 BECAUSE OF AGE. NEW K-HORNS ARE $7,500 A PAIR. I WAS THINKING $3,750 A PAIR (HALF THE PRICE OF NEW ). ANY SUGGESTIONS WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED.

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