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Faermark
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Nordost Odin

What do you think about new Nordost cables Odin?
Is it really useful to buy so expensive cables for audio components?

http://www.nordost.com/news/news.cfm

CECE
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Re: Nordost Odin

The last paragraph about trapped gasses making a new cable sound brittle!!!!! As Arnold wud say...Dats a gud von! I'm suprised they didn't say trapped gas made it sound BLOATED!!!! I've found the BEST wire are the ones that are the right length and have the correct connector.Gold plated does prevent corrosion, which will cause problems over time. Corrosion bad, gold good. Checkout www.mcminone.com or www.partexpress.com Lotsa wires Dayton house brand at PE StellarLabs or some other genric stuff at MCM Also Look at an interesting writeup with real science about wires at the BenchMark site www.benchmarkmedia.com Look for the PDF on cables etc...interesting SCIENCE using electrical properties etc. And it also shows that most home use of wires have nothing to fear using any wire. Studios, broadcast, with long long runs of wires, interconnections, need to pay attention to specifics for hum and nosie, yeah, cables running hundreds and hundreds of feet, drive abiltys of the equipment etc. In home not an issue

CECE
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Re: Nordost Odin

http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/caig/ this has the 24 page writeup on wire

Enclosure
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Re: Nordost Odin

Carl, that's a good link.

At a minimum what you are listening to when you listen to cables is inductance and resistance. Hence every cable can sound dramatically different but you have to first have purchased a system that can resolve the differences in the cable. That would be a very expensive system. Component wise you are looking at around $20,000 or better before the cable jumps out at you as a problem.

Another problem is hearing. Many people cannot hear the differences in the cable even though it makes the system sound different. They either have not been trained to listen for it or have hearing that is less than perfect. Some who have spent that much and who are not critical listeners will never hear the difference in cables. Hence they buy cheap amplification and hope for the best.

tandy
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Re: Nordost Odin

I, and friends, have heard differences in ICs with alot less expensive equipment. Try different terminations such as 60/40 solder and then silver solder on home made Ics sometime and you will see what I mean. Either termination presents little resistance/capacitance/inductance compared to the thousands of ohms of input impedance of the following components, yet makes a sonic difference.

Materials, terminations matter.

Faermark
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Re: Nordost Odin

So what is right speakers for $25000 speaker cable?

tandy
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Re: Nordost Odin

Have to listen and see how the system sounds.

CECE
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Re: Nordost Odin

So you are one of these amazingly gifted ones who can hear solder materials? Cool what's that like? The only solder joints I've heard are bad ones. The result from cold grey poor soldering, corroded joints, etc. They make very audible make/break connections. But to be able to HEAR audible differences between say Silver solder and good ole' 60/40 has to be a feat that needs further research. The speakers and amps that allow this feat have to be the finast ever. Since they are also filled with solder joints, so how does a solder joint on a piece of wire become audible over all teh other solder connections in teh chain? I am speaking of good solid connections, not defective, damaged poor connections. Which solder joint takes precedent over teh chain of audible solder sound? Incredible. Mostly using teh corrrect type solder, for teh job needed to be done, results in an optium connection. Most situations 60/40 is more than adequete. New types being made lead free, could be problematic under certain uses, since they may not flow properly when soldered...but then, that is a poor joint, dry, like any defective connection. What is the sound of solder 60/40 versus 67/33? How do I set out to hear this, what other components resolve this?

tandy
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Re: Nordost Odin

Have you tried it dup????

CECE
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Re: Nordost Odin

Yup. I do a lot of soldering. Keep lotsa things runing. Never made a bad solder joint yet, ever. Been raised on proper soldering techniques. Lots resting on my expertise actually. Terhe is no audible differences between any 60/40 or whatever is marketed as some audio nut type. What is teh difference in the joint, mechanically and electrically? Got any numbers to back this up, since you can hear this event? I can't, never knew anyone that could. What would I hear based on your experiences, please tell me, maybe i am missing something, not a "trained listener". Explain the difference, of 2 proper solder joints using different solders. Please, since you heard it, I ain't? And I have used different solders, for real, no difference, maybe my system isn't resolving enough..it that the reason? Where is this change being made inaudible in a system? Since there are so many other solder joints, why is the speaker connector joint THE one that I will hear?

tandy
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Re: Nordost Odin


Quote:
Yup. I do a lot of soldering. Keep lotsa things runing. Never made a bad solder joint yet, ever. Been raised on proper soldering techniques. Lots resting on my expertise actually. Terhe is no audible differences between any 60/40 or whatever is marketed as some audio nut type. What is teh difference in the joint, mechanically and electrically? Got any numbers to back this up, since you can hear this event? I can't, never knew anyone that could. What would I hear based on your experiences, please tell me, maybe i am missing something, not a "trained listener". Explain the difference, of 2 proper solder joints using different solders. Please, since you heard it, I ain't? And I have used different solders, for real, no difference, maybe my system isn't resolving enough..it that the reason? Where is this change being made inaudible in a system? Since there are so many other solder joints, why is the speaker connector joint THE one that I will hear?

Probably the combination of your poor ears (you stated you listen alot over 100db) and the poor equipment. Check other forums for more who have heard differences. I have friends and even local engineers who have heard differences.

Study some chemistry and you might actually learn something about materials dup. But from exerience we know you will not. We also already know, from other posts, that you know more than RCA engineers and CBS engineers etc. You might try moving beyond the GED degree. Ya think?

Joints are different in that silver solder usually has silver and tin. 60/40 is lead and tin. 60/40 will sound fuller, more grunge, lack of focus. Information in the music, like whispering, can be totally missing, for example.
Pretty clear cut dup. Same thing with components like solid state amps, even though the specs are superb.

Now do some studying before you make a bigger fool out of yourself.

CECE
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Re: Nordost Odin

That is some amazing stuff. What if you have both types of solder in teh entire system, now what would you hear? One cancels the other Is solder effects cumulitive , additive, subtrative, similar to line overlap in analytical analysis? Like say a Beta peak being too close to a line of interest in diffraction scans? So SOLDER is audible. Hmmmmm, you certainly proved it with your explanation, and how i should look into chemistry. What if the blend is 67/33 tin lead? What about lead free solder? Besides a mechanical issue with microscpic voids in the joint, which is easily viewd on an electron scope, documented. Corrosion issues. The sound of lead free solder, would have to be different since lead tin has "grunge" no focus? Taking teh lead out re focuses or removes grunge, or is it teh tin an issue...you certainly havent proved anything but speculation and hear say mostly. You are parroting some dopey articles by some writers with abiltys far beyond mortal men. Same realm as demgnetized plastics. What BRAND is most musical? Since there is Ersin multicore, and Alpha wire solders, all slightly different in specs. Which one is THE audio finast? Why does it only affect teh cords, not inside the amps or preamps? Again, what about mix and match, do they negate one anotehr, additive, subtrative. You seem to have teh knowledge, tell me. I'll specify the solder type on my next new amp and pre amp OK? Since teh stuff is made to order, not mass fi stuff.

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Re: Nordost Odin

Do you also hear audible differences in what type of iron was used to do the soldering. What about tip type? Pencil, point, what temperature sounds best? There has to be something to this SCIENCE of audible solders. Since it involes materials sciences. What heat did you sue, you certainly have a micro processor controlled soldering iron for exact reproducible temperatures, right? Random solder temps just throw anotehr variable into your results, hardly very scientific, or good data. Did you do an electron scope look at the joints to see if there is a poor solder joint, and maybe THAT is causing differences, not teh type of solder? Even someone with a GED knows all variables whoudl be removed for an accurate test result. My GED science teacher told us that. Did you listen at teh exact same levles and positions? You measured these levels and used accurate measuring devices to ensure your ears where exactly the same position. GED science students know all about removing variables. Esssh. GED is good.

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Re: Nordost Odin


Quote:
That is some amazing stuff. What if you have both types of solder in teh entire system, now what would you hear? One cancels the other Is solder effects cumulitive , additive, subtrative, similar to line overlap in analytical analysis?"

>Obviously you haven't really worked with with electronics. I also doubt if you have ever tested ICs with different terminations. You have lied too many times in the past.

"So SOLDER is audible. Hmmmmm, you certainly proved it with your explanation, and how i should look into chemistry."

>If you were really interested you would have already been studying. I provided links in the past.

"...you certainly havent proved anything but speculation and hear say mostly."

>And you haven't made any sense in the least. You completely avoid studying like I mentioned many times in the past and you haven't experimented at all. So who are you trying to kid??

"You are parroting some dopey articles by some writers with abiltys far beyond mortal men."

>I see you are now against studying any links I previously mentioned. I also tweeked, too bad your ears and system are so poor.

"Why does it only affect thh cords, not inside the amps or preamps?"

>Really brilliant. Who said it didn't make any difference inside the amps or preamps?
Just keep sticking both feet into your mouth dup.

The rest of your post is total nonsense as usual.

tandy
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Re: Nordost Odin

"Do you also hear audible differences in what type of iron was used to do the soldering. What about tip type? Pencil, point, what temperature sounds best? There has to be something to this SCIENCE of audible solders."

>So we see your true colors again, ridicule. You flat out lied about wanting to learn from your previous post. Why does that not surprise me.

"Even someone with a GED knows all variables whoudl be removed for an accurate test result."

>I haven't seen it so far. Want to try again?

"My GED science teacher told us that. Did you listen at teh exact same levles and positions?"

>Your GED teacher is wrong in your case. Have you showed him your posts? t

>The levels are NOT changed when switching ICs. Come on, you can't be that stupid can you????

"GED is good."

>In your case, we all see what you are. Not pleasant.

>Why do you bother to post when you have no idea of what you are talking about? You have not provided even one link to support you position.

And of course your system, and/or your ears, is a piece of trash.

CECE
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Re: Nordost Odin

Didn't say changing the wires changed the levels, aasked if you are certain it was at the exact same levels. Measured the levels, and of course you lsitened in teh exact same position right. Since these things are so so so subtle, certainly the slightest change in any variable will give different results right? If you are hearing teh sound of solder, turning your head or moving up or down or anything is certainly gonna make more of a change? Myabe you just had poor connections and just by moving something you cleaned off oxidation, or something. And of course you measured the cables so they where exactly the same electrical propertys, teh only difference is the solder? Riiiiight? What about teh type /brand of rosin flux, was that the exact same, so many variables, so many other things that could be the change, your test methods are useless. Your concepts and ideas are all awash in confusion, you need to comeup with a better method of proving these minute changes in things. Cus I still say, you didn't and can't hear what you claim. Try again

tandy
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Re: Nordost Odin

"Didn't say changing the wires changed the levels, aasked if you are certain it was at the exact same levels."

>The answer is still the same. Just changing ICs will not change the volume level in spl. You can't wiggle or back step on this one dup.

"Measured the levels, and of course you lsitened in teh exact same position right."

>Playing games like the last time this was discussed dup? Getting help from someone we know here?

1) Everyone knows that the ear "averages", otherwise there would be dramatic effects from just an inch of head movement. But one doesn't hear drastic sound differences. So who are you trying to kid.

2) The sonic differences heard were much greater than the "average" differences from head movement.

3) Whereas moving ones head involves simply changing high Q resonances at specific frequencies, changed in the ICs involved across the board changes in sound.

4) One can hear info, such as toe tapping, that other ICs mask. So we are not just dealing with frequency changes. This alone is proof of sonic differences.

"Since these things are so so so subtle, certainly the slightest change in any variable will give different results right?"

>Who said they were subtle? Well of course you did dup. How convenient for your argument. But see above points.

If you are hearing teh sound of solder, turning your head or moving up or down or anything is certainly gonna make more of a change?"

>And how would you know? Obviously you haven't performed any testing.

"And of course you measured the cables so they where exactly the same electrical propertys, the only difference is the solder? Riiiiight?"

>The solders exhibit different electrical properties. Of course, daaaah.

"What about teh type /brand of rosin flux, was that the exact same, so many variables, so many other things that could be the change, your test methods are useless."

>The flux is in the solder, daaaaah. The flux is "burned" off. The test is repeatable over and over again.

>Does anyone really care what your opinion is dup? I hope not as you have very little idea of what you are talking about. But I am scared some innocent individual might actually believe anything of what you say.

>Of course if you admit you know almost nothing, then your suppliers of info, (who are probably the ones who you purchased your components from) won't have any legitimacy.

mchale
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Re: Nordost Odin

Altering the parasitic characteristics of any component that carries a large amount of current or is subject to big voltage drops can create resonances that will alter the end result in ways more dramatic than imagined.

tandy
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Re: Nordost Odin

Can be small signal level components as well. Try it sometime. Terminations make a difference.

CECE
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Re: Nordost Odin

Never did answer me what brand Rosin flux sounds better? i know there is usally rosin flux in solder for elctrical work...but if you had any electrocnis experiences, or knew anything about it, you would know rosin flux is used externally applied in situations, i use it mostly on old oxidized wires, on older equipment. Nothing helps better than FLUX to give a nice clean shiny joint, but the stuff i work on, doesn't seenm to mind teh brand, what do you hear on different brands of flus, since you know that flux is in teh solder duhm, wonder why i buy Rosin flux in liquid and paste form, read this ya might learn something. So what does solder do to effect this differences you can hear? http://www.tpub.com/neets/book4/12i.htm

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Re: Nordost Odin


Quote:
Never did answer me what brand Rosin flux sounds better? i know there is usally rosin flux in solder for elctrical work...but if you had any electrocnis experiences, or knew anything about it, you would know rosin flux is used externally applied in situations, i use it mostly on old oxidized wires, on older equipment. Nothing helps better than FLUX to give a nice clean shiny joint, but the stuff i work on, doesn't seenm to mind teh brand, what do you hear on different brands of flus, since you know that flux is in teh solder duhm, wonder why i buy Rosin flux in liquid and paste form, read this ya might learn something. So what does solder do to effect this differences you can hear? http://www.tpub.com/neets/book4/12i.htm

dup, sounds like you are quite a novice. Working outside on exposed wire, copper pipe etc is completely different than using electronic parts for a project. Outside, one has to deal with extreme oxidation, many times cleaning off the wire by other means before soldering.

Electronic arts have their wires clean to begin with, and even tinned. So your example is nothing more than a cheap trick; trying to paint an outdoor situation the same as an indoor soldering parts/component situation. The two are quite different, with quite different techniques. Maybe dup just doesn't know the difference? But wait, that means dup doesn't have any experience in parts/component soldering.

CECE
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Re: Nordost Odin

Copper pipe, I ain't talking Acid Flux you putz,we ain't talking plumbing. Rosin electronic wiring...geez, comphrehension off a bit. Yup, I'm a novice..When ya work on stuff that has a few years on it, wires and connectors are oxidized, and depends on the enviorment, I seen some nasty stuff. Yup, I'm a novice. I don't think you have a clue on commercial/industrial electronics or enviorments outside your living room. so what brand flux "sounds" best? It sure has a part in the solder action. Then what brand Flux remover is audibly superior? So many things involved in "soldering"....I think you might just be clueless?

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Re: Nordost Odin


Quote:
Copper pipe, I ain't talking Acid Flux you putz,we ain't talking plumbing. Rosin electronic wiring...geez, comphrehension off a bit."

>I mean you can't even make a coherent sentence. We also are not talking years/decades old radios either.

"Yup, I'm a novice..When ya work on stuff that has a few years on it, wires and connectors are oxidized, and depends on the enviorment, I seen some nasty stuff."

>Again we aren't talking old crappy stuff. We were talking new interconnects. Do you have a problem doing a simple soldering job on some wire and connectors??

"Yup, I'm a novice. I don't think you have a clue on commercial/industrial electronics or enviorments outside your living room. so what brand flux "sounds" best?"

>When you ask a descent question, you will get a descent answer. Obviously, you don't know much about soldering and flux. Otherwise you would not be asking such a dumb question.

>The rest of your post is not worth commenting on as well.

>I am sure your next post will also be as stupid as your last.

smejias
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Re: Nordost Odin

I'm closing this now because it's strayed too from the original post.

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