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intgenx
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Need sub-woofer in the US$1000-$2000 range. Is the Genelec 7060 the best sub in the world at this price? Read more: http://www.

Dear Folks,

I've searched the forum for sub-recommendations and am now suffering from information overload and can't seem to make a list to even narrow down my choices and now I need your help to finalize a sub-woofer for a 5.1ch Home-theater with Active speakers.

Center & Surrounds: Genelec G Three (consumer grade version of 8030)
Left & Right: Genelec G Four (consumer grade version of 8040)
The advantage with this setup is the G 4 paired with a good sub gets me a very good 2.1ch setup for music that performs at the G4 level and for movies the G 4 can easily match the level of the G 3 in the center/surrounds and I will essentially get a 5.1ch setup that performs at the G 3 level for movies.

My requirement is a sub that integrates well with the above setup. The sub has to perform (fidelity not SPL) better than the Genelec 7060 (at the $2100 price range) and at least as good as the Genelec 7050 ($1100 price range).

In short - my question is as follows:
Is the Genelec 7060 the best sub in the world (for fidelity and low distortion) at its $2100 price point?

The main performance criteria being very low distortion, high fidelity/accuracy/transparency, tight, clean bass. SPL is not the most important factor.

The dealer claims that the Genelec 7060 is worth every penny of its $2200 price because of the following: Genelec's proprietary Laminar Spiral Enclosure (LSE) [does anyone know how this makes the sub better than everything else], "0" db baffle resonance, driver giving all the SPL and not the cabinets rattling, construction rock solid and no coloration in the Low Frequency and also power efficient consumes only 120W for an SPL@1m of 108dB and is well integrated with the Genelec speakers.

Other details - in case you have time to read further:
1. Budget: $1000 to $2000 (base USD prices before taxes, shipping etc).Since I can't buy used, I will also have to add about 70% on top of the base price for duty, shipping ,VAT etc to arrive at my final cost.

2. Size requirements/limits: I think an 8" or 10" sub should be sufficient - should have freq response down to 21 or 22 hz. with the best fidelity/accuracy/transparency, tight clean distortion free bass is my most important criterion - not loudness/SPL.

3. Room dimensions: Living/Dining hall: 25' x 18' open to a Foyer: 9' x 12' with Ceiling height 10'. Flooring is polished marble, walls are brick with cement plaster. (Refer: 4BHK layout.jpg )

4. Primary uses: Usage will be about 70% movies - 30% music.
All videos (avi, mp4, mpg, mkv, divx etc) and music (mp3) files are on hard-disk and will be played via VLC player from a home-theater PC, all the speakers will be directly connected to the 5.1ch sound card on the PC using XLR (any body know if a sound card has XLR out available?) or through RCA-XLR conversion jack or plain RCA jack.

5. Listening habits: I do not plan on playing it with blow me off my seats loudness (except may be when the wife is away) but just a set that is accurate/ transparent, without rattling and unwanted vibrations etc. I'm not looking for earth shattering bass - just accurate, clean distortion free bass - that is as good as or better than Genelec 7060.

6. Appearance requirements: It has to be sufficiently compact and good looking to complement the Genelecs G 4/ G 3 but needn't be super-compact or sleek - so as to compromise price or performance...It needs to be made in Europe or North America

7. Location and Time-frame: I'm an American expat based in Bangalore, India and that means fewer options to consider and there is no "used" market to speak of and imported things in general cost nearly double here compared to the base US prices. Can't really buy internet direct either - but I do want the best (most accurate, transparent) sub out there in my price range... therefore I may be willing to wait and buy the right thing by whatever means I can.

8. DIY is not an option for this setup. I may do it as a second or complementary sub - if needed - but the criteria will remain the same - tight bass, low distortion, no rattling, power efficient etc comparable to Genelec... I don't think I can achieve that in a million years...

9. WAF: "Any crazy thing which is...Not too big, Not too loud. Not too ugly."

10. I'm looking to find the "Best" sub there is not just "very good or excellent" in the $700 - $2000 price bracket.
I assume there are very few choices (in my budget)... that are equal or better performance/accuracy than the Genelec 7060 in the above categories: tight bass, low distortion, low waste due to heat or noise, accuracy/transparency,etc...(loudness and bomb like air/earth moving ability is not a criterion for me) - the brand has to have the same studio cred and audiophile/pro/musician cred and halo effect as the Genelecs and look tastefully (no flashy/glossy stuff) done too...

would the Genelec 7060 still be the sub to get at the $2000 price point?

Bill B
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Loud
intgenx wrote:

has to perform (fidelity not SPL) .... the best sub in the world (for fidelity and low distortion) ... main performance criteria being very low distortion, high fidelity/accuracy/transparency, tight, clean bass. SPL is not the most important factor. .... with the best fidelity/accuracy/transparency, tight clean distortion free bass is my most important criterion - not loudness/SPL. .. do not plan on playing it with blow me off my seats loudness ... a set that is accurate/ transparent, without rattling and unwanted vibrations etc. I'm not looking for earth shattering bass - just accurate, clean distortion free bass ...  want the best (most accurate, transparent) sub out there ...criteria will remain the same - tight bass, low distortion, no rattling, power efficient etc...the "Best" sub there is not just "very good or excellent" ...categories: tight bass, low distortion, low waste due to heat or noise, accuracy/transparency,etc

So, you primarily just want high SPL's/loudness? 

j/k!

Typically, ported subwoofers are less good at tight/clean/low distortion bass than sealed subwoofers.  The Genelecs you mention are ported.  And the ported design is probably the largest part of them being rated so efficient/loud.  Have you heard them?  (I haven't, so I can't testify to their sound.)

intgenx
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Thanks folks - I'm wondering

Thanks folks - I'm wondering if someone did a shoot-out of subs with Genelec 7060 as one of the contenders and how it fared. I'm considering KK DXD808 vs Genelec 7060.

I'm not just buying SQ but the experience of a brand - its important that the brand have a storied past or a legend behind it - the halo effect if you will. Apart from the SQ, Hi-Fi etc I'd want the bragging rights of finding that unique brand (for eg BMW 3series) that is not exactly for the common man but for only those in the know with a truly refined taste. Genelec seems to have it and KK to an extent (assuming KKs are made in USA)

 

SVS, HSU etc seem too common...and if SVS has a dealership in India and firm prices - its gotta be as common as a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic

btw: I can't go demo the SVS as it is a 10 hr drive to the neighboring state and they don't have a try it and return policy and shipping costs and interstate taxes are high...

Bill B
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Brand

Ok. I'm not too familiar with Genelec other than knowing they are much more used in "pro audio" for recordin/mixing etc. so they have much less of an audiophile halo about them,  I'm not saying anything negative about them - except for an impression that they are in the "ruthlessly revealing" category,which is useful in analyzing ones mixes as you get them down on tape. Some people find that type of speaker hard or harsh in a home environment. With your home's hard/reflective surfaces,a harsh treble could be emphasized. 

I hope someone who has actually listened to genelecs will chime in here. 

For storied/legendary brands in audio, I think of Quad, KEF, B&W, McIntosh, Vandersteen, Martin-Logan, JBL, Linn, etc. Those are more like BMW, Jaguar, etc to me. 

While I'm flapping my lips, for my taste the genelecs are pretty ugly. No offense intended, you didn't design them. 

intgenx
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I started out thinking the

I started out thinking the Genelecs were ugly... then they started looking plain and then they started looking downright cute and loveable - like a bunny rabit... it just grew on me...

and I'm quite used to the same experience when it comes to women... the hottie that every one went after always seemed quite beyond my reach and later found to be hollow and not my type at all... 

well I don't know what many audiophiles like and why they don't go for true pro-grade studio speakers which are made for true fidelity and used in the production process for the music/movies which the audiophiles later listen on - why listen to the speaker makers interpretation of the sound the sound director or musician made when you should be hearing what they heard when the mixes were made.

The flashy/glossy fancy looking designs aren't my thing either - what matters to me most is fidelity and that's why I chose active studio monitor speakers and specifically Genelecs (and the other worthy active speaker competitors were Focal, ADAM, PMC, ATC etc - none of the brands you mentioned but these brands have serious studio cred and are truly hi-fi not pseudo hi-fi)

 

Now when it comes sub-woofers there are many manufacturers who make very good subs - as subs have mostly been active from day one...

so I might have a bigger choice... I'll take a look at Quad, Vandersteen and Linn and see what they have to offer..

any other storied and legendary suggestions.. btw: they all have to be made in the country the brand belongs to...I do have a problem with brands that claim "designed/engineered in ....USA/UK/Germany etc but made in China" -  if I'm buying Scotch - it better be distilled/blended/bottled in Scotland and when I know I'm looking for sparkling bubbly made by the champagne method - I know for sure I'm not buying Champagne... its all about terroir...

 

Bill B
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cool

That's cool and there's plenty of room for variation in aesthetics.  I get your point about studio monitors.  The thing is, if they are "perfect", then anything else is inferior - that premise does correctly lead to that conclusion.  On the other hand, if Genelecs, PMC's, etc are less than perfect, then they have a character, as do more "audiophile" speakers.  Therefore, I think good implementations of different designs all have their strengths, so I think it will limit you if you go for just studio monitor types.  Of course there is a wide overlap.  B&W, for instance, is well positioned and regarded in both "audiophile" and "pro audio" worlds - as are several other brands.

The studio monitors I have heard (not Genelecs) are indeed ruthlessly revealing, and that is essential to an engineer when recording.  But they did not seem good at all at soundstaging and a sense of depth or space, and at home I value those qualities too (those qualities in the studio are probably a bonus but not necessary to the work).

For subwoofers, very accurate, deep, powerful (& expensive) ones, with prestigious names also include Velodyne, REL, B&W, and others.  One of the best direct sellers and value for the money (not sure how shipping to Bangalore would work) is Rhythmik.

intgenx
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i compared the top of the

i compared the top of the line B&W 800D to the Genelec 8260 and they were quite on par in performance... but the 8260 was less 1/3rd the price of the 800D

that's what got me to try the other Genelecs - the 8050 and 8040 and 8030 and the halo effect kicked in... apart from the studio cred and marketing of both brands...

 

Which of these subwoofer makers make their subs in North America/Europe....that's one of my key criteria...

Bill B
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Decided

Great, If you got to listen and decide for yourself, then that's ideal. 

I don't know where all the brands/models are manufactured. I know Vandersteen is all in house and all in Hanford, California, USA.  I think Rhythmik is all USA except they have their cabinets made in China. 

intgenx
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have you all heard or heard

Have you all heard or heard of
the Martin Logan Depth i - surely fits the budget, size, brand and performance wise...and i believe its made in Canada...

the only minor issue is that - it has no XLR input... (available on the Descent i - which goes into the $3200 category).
Dont you think XLR input is something a serious hi-fidelity equipment at the $2200 price point ought to have...not sure why Martin Logan cheaped out on such a small thing. Not knowing where in the room it will need to be placed and the Depth/Descent i are apparently known for requiring much more precise placement than other single/dual subs - I'd surely like to run balanced cables if need be (because the Genelec G4 and G3 speakers have both RCA and XLR).

 

ok so its 

Seaton SubM vs Martin Logan Depth i vs Acoustic Energy Pro-Sub vs Genelec 7060 vs 2 x ADAM Sub 10 vs 2 X Focal CMSSub vs Neumann KH810

 

WAF apart - not sure if it will be completely worth it to jump to the next higher price bracket:

Paradigm - Sub 1 vs Martin Logan - Descent i vs Genelec 7070 or 2 x 7060

in which case do other competitors enter the picture?

 

 

Pl. give your thoughts...

Bill B
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compari

Narrowed it down to 12 choices?  Sorry, I'm out of ammo.  Maybe someone else will comment but there won't be any real source of direct comparisons between all those.  Plus, considering using 2 subs of some brands and 1 sub of others further complicates comparisons.  It's a moving target.

intgenx
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Folks, the Seaton SubMs are

Folks, the Seaton SubMs are having a hard time with the WAF.

A smaller but 2 sub stereo configuration can clear the WAF than one large SubM...

 

I've been slowly opening up to the idea of a DIY...for which there are many enthusiasts willing to help for nothing more than the thrill of having helped a fellow DIYer.

 

What are the features/parameters that I should expect in my sub?

 

I'm thinking the following:

Must have:

1. 10" - dual opposed drives - for vibration/rattle free bass.

2. Sealed cabinet - easier to design and build - than having to optimize or tune the port etc which can be quite complex.

3. Low pass filter for drive protection

4. Needs to have XLR, RCA - gold plated inputs 

5. Max. Cabinet dimensions: 18" x 18" x 24"

6. Level control

7. Clipping and Power surge protection

8. Auto-power on signal

9. No compromise on finish and looks etc...

 

 

Nice to haves:

1. Should I consider adding dual passive radiators as well? a quad driver active/passive design?

2. Cross-over adjustment?

3. Is it advisable to use Hard-wood for cabinet instead of MDF? (other than cost - are there any other advantages to MDF - how about an all aluminum cabinet?)

4. Liquid cooled amplifier - like for a PC?

5. Parallel XLR, RCA (pass through same as input) outputs for daisy chaining

6. High pass filter out for connecting the L/R in stereo mode for 2ch music?

 

 

I will probably have to take the DIY ideas/discussions onto a different thread or should I continue to keep this thread active...

Bill B
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parameters

If you go DIY, you know already, or soon will, that you can't just make a list of "must haves", because all the parameters affect each other;  I'm speaking largely about your criteria listing size & number of drivers, along with your specific max dimensions for the cabinet, and sealed vs. ported.  They all interact.  BTW, building a good, strong, non-resonant sealed cabinet is NOT necessarily easier than building a ported box.

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