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tom collins
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

does the lambo come with a lars sound system?

Buddha
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:

Quote:
The new Lamborghini Murcielago LP670-4 Super Veloce is 450,000 dollars.

What a rip off.


I heard it's faster when the tires are demagnetized.

Ah, if only there were some way to measure that.

Welshsox
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

If JV had priced the Lambo it would cost $3,500,000 as everyone has to make at least 50 % profit to stay in business.

How can you expect to buy a car unless the sum of its parts are marked up significantly

You car buying bastards, you exploit the poor luxury car makers, how the hell can they survive on such tiny margins.

How the hell is Porsche one of the profitable car company in the world when it can only sell cars for like $50-150 k !!! I mean a $100,000 porsche carrera has nowehere the engineering content of a LARS amp, that engine !! nothing compared to the Lars speaker terminals, those alloy wheels and tyres cost nothing compared to the 1/4 watt resistors in the LARS.

I really think Jan is onto something and we should apply the same LARS margins to all products, we could have a $500 can of pepsi, a $25,000 ipod. Think how much richer all the manufacturers and dealers would be.

Alan

Buddha
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

On the other hand, this site would still be a bargain at one million times the price!

Jan Vigne
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


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How can you expect to buy a car unless the sum of its parts are marked up significantly

Now you want to display your lack of knowledge concerning the automobile business too?

The Lars might not cost $100k if you had to bring it in every six months for a $1200 service.

Alan, yesterday you were foaming at the mouth and calling John and me Nazis and Storm Troopers. You were on your way out the door and cancelling subscriptions demanding a penney back from Stereophile so you wouldn't loose money. We were a worthless lot you didn't want to be associated with and you were leaving. Don't tell me you can't get that right either.

Welshsox
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

Jan

The thing is I know when to give up. My point was made and basically its clear nobody really gives a fuck !!

If morons like you want to subsidize hifi companies then go right ahead, you obviously think these prices are justified ( although of course you never actually buy anything ) so im adopting a new approach in that im going to encourage high prices, that way the companies will bring out overpriced shiny stuff for superficial guys like you who are more interested in peer approval than real value and they will also bring out well engineered good value products for smart consumers like JimV, Buddha and myself.

In terms of JA being a Nazi, there is a little truth to that but so what. Ill ignore the crap in the magazine and read the bits that interest me.

Alan

Jan Vigne
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


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... although of course you never actually buy anything ...

Obviously, you are wrong once again. You've proven only one thing and what now we all certainly know is true I doubt was your intent when you began this protracted rant.

Of course I buy equipment, though I hold on to what I buy because I buy quality gear not assemble from off the shelf parts. No crime there though you would wish to make it so. You have such high standards for everyone but yourself.

However, as it was pointed out on page one or two of this thread, you are not buying the MF amplifier and therefore, you are not being ripped off and no one who has purchased the Titan feels they have been ripped off. At least you've certainly not provided any evidence to the show otherwise, have you?

Have a good few weeks, Alan, and rest your typing hand - you might want to practice those apostrophes. I'm sure we'll see you back here with another rant soon after the next issue of Stereophile (since you recanted your raving subscription cancellation) hits your mailbox.

I'll just bookmark this thread and when you start I'll post this to save us all a lot of time.

Same ol' same ol'.

Ajani
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


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Jan

The thing is I know when to give up. My point was made and basically its clear nobody really gives a fuck !!

You are right about one thing: the very last part of your statement... People who buy ultra-expensive gear do so because they want to and because they can... they don't care whether you think the cost of raw parts doesn't justify the price tag...


Quote:
If morons like you want to subsidize hifi companies then go right ahead, you obviously think these prices are justified ( although of course you never actually buy anything ) so im adopting a new approach in that im going to encourage high prices, that way the companies will bring out overpriced shiny stuff for superficial guys like you who are more interested in peer approval than real value and they will also bring out well engineered good value products for smart consumers like JimV, Buddha and myself.

Many of the persons here arguing with you, don't buy those reference pieces you are protesting... they just wait for the tech to trickle down to more reasonably priced gear and/or buy second/third hand...


Quote:
In terms of JA being a Nazi, there is a little truth to that but so what. Ill ignore the crap in the magazine and read the bits that interest me.

Alan

There is no truth in your Nazi remarks... The fact that JA has allowed you to continue these rants (where many other site admins would have just banned you for being a troll) shows that he has no problem with open discussion...

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


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Many of the persons here arguing with you, don't buy those reference pieces you are protesting... they just wait for the tech to trickle down to more reasonably priced gear and/or buy second/third hand...

Trickle down a lot faster if they priced their top end more in line with its cost.

Ajani
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:

Quote:
Many of the persons here arguing with you, don't buy those reference pieces you are protesting... they just wait for the tech to trickle down to more reasonably priced gear and/or buy second/third hand...

Trickle down a lot faster if they priced their top end more in line with its cost.

Not necessarily: Musical Fidelity Titan $30K... MF V Series $200 - $300 (basic, cheap cases and minimal packaging... most of the cost in electronics).

Revel Ultima Studio $16K.... Revel Concerta F12 $1.5K... see review for comparison:

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/706revel/

KBK
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:

Quote:
Many of the persons here arguing with you, don't buy those reference pieces you are protesting... they just wait for the tech to trickle down to more reasonably priced gear and/or buy second/third hand...

Trickle down a lot faster if they priced their top end more in line with its cost.

A general note, not specific to a given person:

The product is unique, It has considerable hidden cost*...it is in demand, the price is admirably fair.

That's all there is to it.

Other than that, meaning this thread----it is illiterate (of) market and illiterate (of) accounting wangers spouting off.

*I've got an a ongoing experiment that has spanned 12 years of thinking and experimenting. I've got a small container of 'stuff' that is about 1.5 oz big. Think pill cup from the hospital. It took about $12,000 in costs, plus that 12 years of thinking and work just to get to this stage of the given experiment. I'm not done yet! Think of the hidden costs, over this small 'pill container' with some stuff in it.

There is no difference here, in that regard. MF spent considerable efforts and resources designing and prototyping the amplifier, and are entitled to recover their costs. Regardless of illiterate opinion on this subject.

To me the case was closed before it began. There was no case - just ranting.

Buddha
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


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To me the case was closed before it began.

Of course it was.

JIMV
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

If a reviewer has no responsibility to note an obvious disconnect between parts and construction cost and price, then how can one take it seriously when they speak of 'value', 'budget', or 'moderately 'priced'.

If a $3K item is 'budget' component, how is it a good value when $3K in parts is priced at $20K. If Stereophile didn't compare vastly overpriced gear with gear of similar performance at less price, then I believe they would be simply hyping a logo, like the little horsey on the $15 cotton shirt. To their credit, they do note warts as well as magic.

Ajani
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


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If a reviewer has no responsibility to note an obvious disconnect between parts and construction cost and price, then how can one take it seriously when they speak of 'value', 'budget', or 'moderately 'priced'.

If a $3K item is 'budget' component, how is it a good value when $3K in parts is priced at $20K.

I see what you're saying, but that still depends on what the industry standard for cost of parts to selling price is... and also whether value for money is determined based on raw cost....

Let's say that Stereophile reviews 2 integrated amps both selling for $2.5K... one amp uses parts that cost only about 10% - 15% of the selling price but the amp sounds glorious and has virtually flawless measurements on JA's test bench... while the other amp has parts costing over 50% of the selling price, but sounds and measures like crap... which amp would you consider a better value for your money?


Quote:
If Stereophile didn't compare vastly overpriced gear with gear of similar performance at less price, then I believe they would be simply hyping a logo, like the little horsey on the $15 cotton shirt. To their credit, they do note warts as well as magic.

Your last sentence is why many of us question the purpose of this thread... Since this thread implies that Stereophile is not alerting us to MF's Titan being a "ripoff"...

JIMV
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:

Let's say that Stereophile reviews 2 integrated amps both selling for $2.5K... one amp uses parts that cost only about 10% - 15% of the selling price but the amp sounds glorious and has virtually flawless measurements on JA's test bench... while the other amp has parts costing over 50% of the selling price, but sounds and measures like crap... which amp would you consider a better value for your money?

But that is not the issue...the issue is when a reviewer reviews an expensive device with almost no parts and doesn't note it...

Stereopile seems to understand that some gear is vastly overpriced and compares this to other gear of more modest cost....they compare that shirt with the horsey to another shirt without, at a real price in line with cost.

Editor
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


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the issue is when a reviewer reviews an expensive device with almost no parts and doesn't note it...

See the photo down the page at www/stereophile.com/tubepoweramps/704wavac/index2.html and my comments that resulted from this review at
www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/704awsi .

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Jan Vigne
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

The cost of parts is not the determinant of the value of the product. Is that so difficult to understand?

Please, stop arguing about the cost and number of parts.

If someone builds a brilliant product with five parts it should be worth more than a mediocre POS with hundreds of parts. Ingenuity and brilliance are rewarded in our economy, that is the free market we embrace.

It is not about how many or which parts. Get over it.

Welshsox
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

To a certain extent you are correct.

What we are saying though is a premium for clever engineering is fine, just that it should be a reasonable premium not 200-500%

Alan

JIMV
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

$350,000 for any piece of audio gear is madness...put another way, that is 3500 $100 tickets to any series of concerts one want to see, ....Twice the price of my last house, the cost of 17 of my last new cars. Heck, one can fly 1st class to Italy, buy a seasons box's at La Scala, and do it for years.... (about $3000 a seat for the absolute best)...125 such tickets.

Heck, for that kind of money you could fly Placido Domingo to YOU a score of times...

Did I say madness? Nothing sounds that good. Live doesn't sound that good.

Sometimes I believe we take our hobby WAY to seriously.

andy19191
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

> What we are saying though is a premium for clever engineering is fine, just
> that it should be a reasonable premium not 200-500%

A product addressing only the technical requirement to amplify an input signal without audibly degrading it could be reasonably judged on your "cost plus" basis. This is essentially the view of a commodity and would result in mass produced $100 products and describes, for example, significant parts of the computer industry.

The audiophile industry is not about commodities but luxury goods. The consumers of luxury goods do not view them like commodities, the suppliers do not price and market them like commodities and a luxury goods market does not behave like a commodities market. That $100 amplifier is now $1000, $10000 or $100000 and to be successful as a luxury item at these different price points requires different approaches from the supplier.

If a consumer chooses to adopt a commodity view (price for technical performance) of a luxury item it is not going to make much sense. Particularly if the grasp of the costs and/or the technical performance is poor because of responding to luxury item's associations.

tom collins
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

in all of these arguments, i do not think that anyone has addressed the issue of the intellect required to put such products together. for example, if you are an electrical engineer who went to a good school, you may well have invested $100,000 in that education. While you worked for others in the stereoland, and learned your craft, you may have been making much less than you might have if you had gone into computers or other cutting edge technology.
One day, you get a wild hair and decide to start making a stereo product with your name on it. Consider the following:
If you buy or rent a 10,000 square foot building to build your product, you may be paying $10,000 per month depending on location. The tools and dyes and jigs you need to do the work might cost $50,000.00 (if you are making speakers). Your inventory of parts might be valued at $100,000.00 because you don't make your speakers or amps as they are called for, but in advance so that you can ship the item immediately when the dealer orders it. The opportunity cost(what you could have made had you invested the money elsewhere) of the inventory sitting in your warehouse until a dealer orders it may cost $500 per day. The utilities might be $2,000 per month if you are using heavy equipment. If you have 10 employees (a small operation), your monthly cost for salaries and unemployment taxes may be $60,000.00 (assumes $2000 per month to $5000 per month). Also, there is the cost of shipping which will add some cost per unit. After all this, there has to be some left over for the owner to take home some money (where is that going to come from?) as well as for research and development of new products and to improve existing products.
These numbers are not exact to this industry, but examples that I believe are fairly representative given my background in business. I am sure there are additional expenses I have not thought of. But, the point is that one can easily see that the "real" cost of delivering a product is far greater than simply the cost of the parts.
Anyone here want to start manufacturing gear? Given all that, it is a miracle that anyone does.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


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What we are saying though is a premium for clever engineering is fine, just that it should be a reasonable premium not 200-500%

I thought you had left the room!

No, what you are saying is nothing and you are saying it over and over and over.

Back up your absurd claim with facts. Unless you know what transformer and casework and circuits the Titan uses and can show me their costs telling me you can buy "X" piece means nothing. You have not provided any real proof of your charges in almost twenty pages and you aren't going to if you repeat the same BS for another twenty pages.

I told you how it needs to be done. So do it. This time include all of the costs of the prototyping that has been done on an amplifier such as the Titan.

Prove your point and then we'll have something to talk about. Repeat made up BS again and you should leave the room, cancel your subscription to Stereophile (without a refund) and join a secluded monastery that demands a vow of silence.

Get to work, Alan, you have a lot of research to do that you have not even attempted up to this point.

smejias
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:

Quote:
the issue is when a reviewer reviews an expensive device with almost no parts and doesn't note it...

See the photo down the page at www/stereophile.com/tubepoweramps/704wavac/index2.html and my comments that resulted from this review at
www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/704awsi .


Heh heh. I'd forgotten about that. Great piece, JA. We should review more wristwatches, though.

Buddha
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
the issue is when a reviewer reviews an expensive device with almost no parts and doesn't note it...

See the photo down the page at www/stereophile.com/tubepoweramps/704wavac/index2.html and my comments that resulted from this review at
www.stereophile.com/asweseeit/704awsi .


Heh heh. I'd forgotten about that. Great piece, JA. We should review more wristwatches, though.

Ah, the wristwatch. Those were desperate times. I seem to recall that Mu Fi was out of product that hadn't been reviewed yet.

I don't think we'll see another watch review any month soon, Mu Fi has the Primo preamp, the AMS50 amp, the 1008 integrated amp and CD player, the 5.5 integrated and CD player, the rest of the A1 series...that could use reviews or updates. I have you guys safely pencilled in for the "Mu Fi Monthly" review at least until January, 2010!

Welshsox
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off *DELETED*

Post deleted by Welsh hifi

linden518
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

Alan, I know you have a running feud with Jan, but this kind of prying into someone's personal life is pretty low - especially when it has nothing to do with the previous post. I know you're better than this.

Welshsox
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off *DELETED*

Sorry

Your right

linden518
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off *DELETED*

Thanks, bud!

Welshsox
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off *DELETED*

Going to see Janine Jansen ( excuse spelling ) tommorrow.

Especially looking forward to Dvorak Violin Concerto

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