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KBK
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


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OK

JV in is usual way likes to trash me, KBK thinks im a fucking idiot, JA thinks i have no idea. the bottom line is that i design the largest industrial audio systems in the world for a living, these are state of the art systems utilising embedded cobranet audio synchronized to 5ms latency with thousands of I/O points. The 3 stooges dismiss me because i dont design rip off high end hifi, what i design is far more sophisticated at every level. This gives me the technical background to state that a $30,000 power amplifier is a scam, im sorry that this pisses off the people with a vested interest but it does not change the facts, JV and KBK should take their heads out and smell the roses, people are getting smarter and will not put up with these scams.
Alan

Easy now, I never ever called Alan an idiot.

I think you should try to design high end audio..as you don't understand the the process or the outcome, at all. As stated, I've got nothing against you Alan, but you are seemingly constantly talking as if your systems (your words, not mine) are more sophisticated.

In some ways -they are. In the general comparative sense of your thoughts and thinking. But NOT even remotely in ways that mean anything to an audiophile.

Apples to oranges, my friend.

No fool I know of who is an audiophile would put 'professional industrial audio' in their house to listen to.

It takes a lifetime to learn how to build High end audio. You are on a different path. I would put up a $1 bet that you would fail utterly as a real high-end audio designer.

Your comparison is totally invalid.

I most seriously doubt that more than a few readers (I'm talking about counting on my toes and fingers out of 100's of thousands of readers) of Stereophile or any other audio magazine, for that matter, would even remotely agree with you.

More to the exact 'should be and -is- self evident' point, 100's of thousands of people are buying and reading audio magazines specifically because they disagree with your position. They have learned the hard way (we have all tried pro audio gear in our systems) that pro audio simply does not cut it-at all. Not in the least. Not even remotely 'true to the original signal'. Pro audio and industrial audio is designed for a different base purpose.

It isn't a war, Alan, it is simply an attempt to try and get you to understand these simple realities. Added to the mix is your insulting and incorrect trashing of things you know nothing about.

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:

Quote:
OK

JV in is usual way likes to trash me, KBK thinks im a fucking idiot, JA thinks i have no idea. the bottom line is that i design the largest industrial audio systems in the world for a living, these are state of the art systems utilising embedded cobranet audio synchronized to 5ms latency with thousands of I/O points. The 3 stooges dismiss me because i dont design rip off high end hifi, what i design is far more sophisticated at every level. This gives me the technical background to state that a $30,000 power amplifier is a scam, im sorry that this pisses off the people with a vested interest but it does not change the facts, JV and KBK should take their heads out and smell the roses, people are getting smarter and will not put up with these scams.
Alan

Easy now, I never ever called Alan an idiot.

I think you should try to design high end audio..as you don't understand the the process or the outcome, at all. As stated, I've got nothing against you Alan, but you are seemingly constantly talking as if your systems (your words, not mine) are more sophisticated.

In some ways -they are. In the general comparative sense of your thoughts and thinking. But NOT even remotely in ways that mean anything to an audiophile.

Apples to oranges, my friend.

No fool I know of who is an audiophile would put 'professional industrial audio' in their house to listen to.

It takes a lifetime to learn how to build High end audio. You are on a different path. I would put up a $1 bet that you would fail utterly as a real high-end audio designer.

Your comparison is totally invalid.

I most seriously doubt that more than a few readers (I'm talking about counting on my toes and fingers out of 100's of thousands of readers) of Stereophile or any other audio magazine, for that matter, would even remotely agree with you.

More to the exact 'should be and -is- self evident' point, 100's of thousands of people are buying and reading audio magazines specifically because they disagree with your position. They have learned the hard way (we have all tried pro audio gear in our systems) that pro audio simply does not cut it-at all. Not in the least. Not even remotely 'true to the original signal'. Pro audio and industrial audio is designed for a different base purpose.

It isn't a war, Alan, it is simply an attempt to try and get you to understand these simple realities. Added to the mix is your insulting and incorrect trashing of things you know nothing about.

I agree with most of what you've said except for:

pro audio simply does not cut it-at all. Not in the least. Not even remotely 'true to the original signal'.

That is not true of all Pro Audio Gear... take for example the Benchmark DAC1 (no idea why that item popped into my head ) - which has received rave reviews around the globe in just about all the major HiFi publications...

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


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the bottom line is that i design the largest industrial audio systems in the world for a living, these are state of the art systems utilising embedded cobranet audio synchronized to 5ms latency with thousands of I/O points. The 3 stooges dismiss me because i dont design rip off high end hifi, what i design is far more sophisticated at every level. This gives me the technical background to state that a $30,000 power amplifier is a scam, im sorry that this pisses off the people with a vested interest but it does not change the facts, JV and KBK should take their heads out and smell the roses, people are getting smarter and will not put up with these scams. For the price of one LARS amplifier I can design a full safety system for an offshore oil production platform that meets every regulatory standard in the world, please tell me how a couple of valves with a $200 ( Lundahl price ) output transfomer in a fancy box is worth more than that ? there is years of knowledge and testing gone into the oil rig system.

........

Alan

Explaining that you are from the Pro Audio side and that's why you regard the concept of a $30K amp as a ripoff, at least gives us some context for your statements...

There are some great deals to be had by buying some of the pro audio gear used in small recording studio setups such as DACs, Headphones and powered monitors... The ones I've heard/own sound exceptionally good... but the other side of pro audio; the mega-watt amps and speakers used in clubs, restaurants, concerts, movie theaters, etc have generally sounded like shit to me...

Welshsox
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

KBK

I do agree that pro audio is not in any way comparable to high end hifi in terms of sound.

I do not design pro audio systems in the traditional sense, ours our much more based on the control side. I was not using my professional experiences to justify sound quality, im my world it is of no importance whatsoever. I was using my experience more in terms of electronics value, it is this that is the crux of my issue.

You might well be correct in that my systems mean nothing to an audiophile, i disagree on the sophistication however, high end hifi is not complicated from an electronics point of view.

You are also correct in that i would fail as a high end audio guy.

What i just dont get is why you persist in defending these ridiculously priced items. Why will just not admit they are a rip off ? i dont care how good it supposedly sounds $20,000 for a 2 x 3 foot peices of speaker wire or $100,000 for an amplifier is just a rip off.

I do respect your approach, unlike JV you are discussing this intelligently, im not sure what resolution we can reach however.

Alan

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

Jan

OK - im a fucking idiot. I put my thoughts and real world experiences out there to back it up.

What the fuck are you ?

Your a failed hifi salesman in Texas who does not buy any of the equipment you talk about.

You think a small Monet is a trickle down of a big Monet, you have never provided anything other than bitchy comments, what is your real world experience.

I am happy to debate with KBK and JA because they at least have done something in the industry, WTF have you done ?

Alan

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

Welsh, as a favor, skip over the "what have you done in the industry" parts.

That's j_j's favorite kind of thing to say. You don't want to come off like j_j.

Jan has likely spent alot of time listening and playing with these toys. He defines 'avid hobbyist,' and has a well rounded experience that gives his opinion on this topic valid standing.

Yes, playing is a valid pursuit... ...and these are toys, so what accomodation can we reach?

I agree with you about there being 'rip offs' in the hobby, but audio is rife with Stockholm Syndrome victims.

For some, their audio gear is used the same way their Patek Phillipe watch is used, not so much for its superiority at its intended purpose, but to let others know the owner is a man of discriminating taste and refinement, who is capable of fully appreciating his overpriced crap in ways you obviously aren't.

I can see where you could get riled up over your magazine 'validating' this sort of thing. I look at it as entertaining, and maybe giving me a glance of the future, or maybe a glance at the future used market!

Feel free to call a rip off a rip off and just expect the Gollums to show up defending Precious.

I also consider the 100 large Lars amp a rip off. Same goes for that 300K Goldmund record player.

Quite a coincidence those products come in at exactly 100K, 300K, or even 30K. Their prices are affectations as much as they are the result of parts/research/production costs.

So, Welsh, what ya need to do now is post some real overpriced crap and call it a rip off, and if someone gets galled, find something even more pricey to call a rip-off. Somewhere out there is a place we will all finally agree!

I happen to think the Bose Wave Radio is a rip off.

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

Buddha

Sounds good

Expose the rip offs !!

Sorry about the industry thing, you are right

Alan

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:
Jan

OK - im a fucking idiot. I put my thoughts and real world experiences out there to back it up.

What the fuck are you ?

Your a failed hifi salesman in Texas who does not buy any of the equipment you talk about.

Who am I? I'm someone looking at the post of a rude, ranting fucking idiot. And this crap about failed hifi salesman is just so much hot air that you might float off at any minute.

Now you tell me this, Alan, just how am I supposed to react to someone who posts that kind of shit? Tell me, Alan. How am I supposed to react to your senseless and repeated insults?

It's too bad you have no sense of a "small Monet" and a "big Monet" and how one evolves from the other. They would actually tell you quite a bit about the creative process. But it seems you have no experience with or desire to be inspired by creativity and therefore no concept of how the creative drive affects people.

In your job you put together predetermined pieces and slip tab A into slot B and call it a system which goes out for bids. And that is what you call your experience with audio. I did that thirty years ago so while I will admit it is not a task any dummy can manage (though most systems are quite repititous and it doesn't take long to figure which tab fits which slot if you're paying attention) it is not a task that provides you any insight what so ever in retailing a piece of statement electronics from scratch to final sale. You insist it does while those with any real insight and experience into how high end electronics operate on a retail level say it does not.

But you will not accept any answer other than the one you want to hear.

So where's "the debate"?

You tell me, Alan, because I can't find it when only one answer is allowed. You won't even compromise. Only one answer will suit you. And that is not how a debate works. You seem not to have any real sense of that either.

You have had this information handed to you on a silver platter several times in this thread and numerous times in your previous rants about pricing. Yet you admit you will only accept one answer. Nothing else will do to calm you. That then constitutes a "rant" and not a debate.

You won't accept facts as presented by those within the industry and even from those who are actively engaged in the high end design aspect of the business concerning the cost of bringing a statement product to market with success within an extremely competitive and often bare bones business model.

You simply will not. You've said so yourself.

So you tell me where the "debate" exists. I can't find it and I've done this with you on several occasions. You have no proof other than what you want to see from an absolutely dissimilar business practice. You are the sausage maker telling the artist how much they should make on their talents because you think your kid could turn out the same thing. And you simply will not accept the answer that says your kid could not turn out the same thing and that is precisely where the value exists in such artistic endeavours.

You will only accept one answer - the one that agrees with your own. You do this over and over and over despite no one agreeing over and over and over and the same facts being presented in each thread. Most importantly, the fact that the sum of the parts is not equal to the cost of production and secondly that you have no concept of what actually is the cost of bringing such an item to market and finally that you will not accept the information when anyone with experience in such matters tells you exactly what costs are involved.

Therefore, JA, KBK and I are once more saying the same things to someone who is doing the exact same thing over and over and over and you are the one expecting different results each time.

What is a working definition of insanity, Alan?

And why shouldn't I believe you fit that definition to a "T", particularly after the recent posts you've made towards me. You come across as a ranting lunatic who has convinced himself it is someone else's fault he can't make sense of reality and someone else's fault that others cannot see his halucinations.

If only you'd had a few more days to find those strawberries!

Alan, if you seriously believe there is anything that resembles "debate" in this thread, you are more deluded than I previously thought. At this point I see this ongoing thread with only one acceptable resolution more as being from someone so desparate for attention you must keep this thread going no matter how many times anyone repeats the facts that prove you wrong.

Against my better judgement I will repeat why this is so, you_offer_no_solution.

Where's your solution, Alan? Where? To continue to bitch? What does that resolve?

The answer is obviously it resolves nothing. So to hear someone go on and on every month about what is wrong and never have any solution to the issue is both boring and highly convincing that you have problems you need to work out on your own. You are preaching the sky is falling for everyone else - and it is not. You are refusing the see the trickle down products which have come from MF and the numerous budget oriented items MF has and continues to produce in order to rant about one specific amplifier that will be produced in extremely limited production and which after garnering top notch reviews as the best product yet from the design lab of MF has very likely sold its production run by this time.

Two things then, Alan; 1) you are going to be treated exactly the same way you treat me, and 2) you have no point and yet you refuse to accept anyone's facts that disagree with your halucinations. So, please, stop until you can come up with something other that your warnings about the impending demise of the sky. Even the lunatic in the sackcloth with the sign has a resolution, you do not.

There is no debate, Alan, when you will only accept one answer and no one is willing to provide that answer there is no debate. Realize that first then we can work on the other issues. However, nothing will change until you change first.

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

Jan

You never cease to amaze me.

You totally insult my career, yet get all high and mighty if do it to you !!!

You continually accuse me of not accepting other points of view, yet offer no hard facts to back up the rip off argument, all you do is say i dont understand !! Please prove the point, not just say its OK and expect me to believe it.

I to am getting sick of your long winded bullying attacks with no substance.

I suggest you do not post any further responses to any of my threads as you are convinced they have no value ther is no need for you to waste your time.

Alan

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


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You never cease to amaze me.

Of that I have no doubt.


Quote:
You totally insult my career, yet get all high and mighty if do it to you !!!

I described your career as best I could from what you have provided as your background into audio. You put together crude sounding audio systems from existing off the shelf parts. You do not design parts or complete circuits from scratch and you do not create from conception to production to promotion and final sale every aspect of what goes into your systems - you buy parts from someone else after they have done the design work. And what you buy does not equal what is inside nor the work and talent that goes into creating a totally new high end amplifier or turntable or CD player or speaker and what you do has no bearing on the production cost of such items.

No matter your self proclaimed "sophistication", what you are doing is essentially "Tab A into Slot B" and put it up for bid. Repeatedly.

I enjoyed the job when I did similar work and there are things about it to keep you interested far beyond bolting a door panel on a F-150 - repeatedly. But it is not bringing a statement piece of high end audio electronics to market with success.

Stating that fact is a far cry from you pronouncing me a "failed hifi salesman".

Do you get that difference, Alan?


Quote:
You continually accuse me of not accepting other points of view ...

Alan, do I have to go back and find your words to show you. You said you would only accept one answer. Now what you have accepted is Buddha's concept that there are rip offs in this industry and that you should continually point them out. Well, that is the answer you wanted, isn't it? And the encouragement you need to keep this up next month and the month after that and the month after that.

That is not the same as accepting a different point of view or facts that disagree with your halucination. I've not seen you accept anything of that sort. What you have accepted is being placated, nothing more.


Quote:
... yet offer no hard facts to back up the rip off argument ...

You are one of the following; a blatant liar, someone with a very poor memory for recent events or a lunatic. You tell me which one it is because after all the proof presented in this thread alone for you to state no hard facts have been given is simply a function of one of those options.


Quote:
... all you do is say i dont understand !! Please prove the point, not just say its OK and expect me to believe it.

I began offering you proofs several months ago when you first started these rants. You ignored them then just as you have ignored them now because you wll only accept one answer and it is not the answer I nor JA nor KBK have repeatedly provided.


Quote:
I to am getting sick of your long winded bullying attacks with no substance.

Then stop. You control this, Alan. You are once again making this my problem - I am the one stopping everyone from agreeing with you. I am the one bullying you by disagreeing with you.

Well, no, I am not. So stop blaming someone else for your issues and stop blaming MF or whoever it will be next month for things you cannot control and for issues to which you have no solutions.

What you have control over is your response to me.

You are tired of my posts saying you are wrong? Then you have two options; either you agree to at the very least provide some sort of compromise by offering a reasonable and realistic solution to the issues which disturb you or you stop making these ridiculous accusations against audio manufacturers all together.

You seem obssesed with me in manner not unlike dup. I am the person who keeps you from getting everyone else to see your halucinations and if only you can do away with me, then all will fall into place for you.


Quote:
I suggest you do not post any further responses to any of my threads as you are convinced they have no value ther is no need for you to waste your time.

And I suppose you think that would allow - no ... commit - everyone, KBK and JA most especially, to suddenly recant their previous statements and take back their proofs in order to alter their course and agree to your position?

None of that is going to happen, Alan. You can stop this at any time. You've given me your ultimatum - only one answer that agrees with your rant.

I've provided you two options as described above.

You decide which way to go.

Welshsox
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

Jan

I have no problem with KBK and JA, its only you.

You have still not provided any back up to demonstrate that a $30,000 is justified, you dismiss my theorys because according to you i assemble crude systems from a few boxes.

You keep on making it personnal because you have no factual basis to your argument, the only position you can take is to say im not qualified and therefore have to accept your position as correct.

Please feel free to write another of your long winded answers, for a change though you could actually provide real numbers and facts to justify your side of the argument.

Alan

Jan Vigne
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

Go back and read the entire thread again. Or go back to any of your previous rants about this same topic where I offered examples of how production costs are determined. I cannot be held responsible for your lack of short term memory.

If you are done being pissed at me, why not try actually saying something that has to do with the topic of this rant. You might, for example, provide a solution to the falling sky as you envision it.

That really is beyond you, isn't it, Alan? A solution? You don't have one, do you?

No, I didn't think you did.

Welshsox
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

A solution.

No problem, stop charging these ridiculous prices. The LARS amp for $100,000 ? solution charge $8,000 which would reflect the components more accurately. How can you charge $100k when you are using an off the shelf $150 output transformer as one of your main components ?

Problem solved

Whats your solution ?

Alan

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:
A solution.

No problem, stop charging these ridiculous prices. The LARS amp for $100,000 ? solution charge $8,000 which would reflect the components more accurately. How can you charge $100k when you are using an off the shelf $150 output transformer as one of your main components ?

Problem solved

Whats your solution ?

Alan

What you've offered is not a solution:

1) It is merely an assumption that a $100K amp can be profitably sold for $8K, as you have no facts to backup your guess of what the price should be.

2) Your bitching about the price of a $30K or $100K amp is going to have about as much effect as non-audiophiles complaining about $2K amps... Just as the mid priced manufactures don't care whether the mass market thinks a complete audio setup should not cost more than $500, The companies producing $30K - $100K amps don't give a fuck about what you think of their prices... You are not even a potential customer of theirs...

3) It's all luxury goods... and no matter how "unfair" you think it is, there will always be people much richer than you are and there will always be goods aimed exclusively at them... Bentley is not going to stop making ultra-expensive cars, simply because some asshole in a Mercedes C Class wants to be able to claim that he owns the best luxury car available... same principle with audio...

Jan Vigne
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


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Whats your solution ?

The first would be to get you to use apostrophes when appropriate. Your posts look like the work of someone typing so furiously they can't take time to collect their (misguided) thoughts. Which, since it's the same thought presented verbatim post after post, day after day, week after week, and month after month, is not bolstering your case as they appear to be nothing more than the work of a nutcase frothing at a perceived enemy as he types.

The second would be the same as it has always been ever since you began these rant threads describing your halucinations.

The third would be to demand proof of your pricing structure in detail. You claim I offer no proof but you have only offered your perceived cost of off the shelf transformers and the like. Take what evidence has been provided to you and do an analysis of what an amplifier such as the Titan might actually cost a company such as MF to successfully design, manufacture in extremely limited production, then bring to market and sell at a reasonable profit.

Do so in detail.

None of the "a so and so transformer costs me 'X' dollars". Take into account the cost of cottage industry assembly of each component that goes into the Titan including any original and specific to the Titan components and their design and cost to bring to production in limited quantities and the cost of production of the Titan as a wholey unique component within - yet separated from - the budget line of MF products and determine the current (de)valuation of the British Pound against other world currencies in your figures. Do a cost analysis of MF's operating budget and show where fat could be trimmed in any and all areas. Show your work in detail explaining each component of MF's yearly budget and how it affects their profit to loss to assets margins. Assume both that MF owns their manufacturing facilties and that they are renting on a yearly schedule, do so for clarity's sake. Make realistic suggestions concerning how MF could have better utilized their money in order to bring the Titan in at what? MSRP. Show in detail the same functions for each MF product currently on the world wide market.

Proof has been entered there is far more than the cost of parts that goes into any successful high end product. Much of that proof has been entered in the words of the very people involved in such efforts. They involve costs you do not incur in your compilation of OEM parts with which to construct crude sounding systems put out for low bid. For instance, include the cost of procurring a custom built shipping contain for the Titan - one produced in sufficient numbers to provide for a limited edition run. Also include the cost of any parts that would be required to provide at least ten years of service should any component within the Titan fail within that time span. Deduct the cost of any demonstration models supplied to magazines and shows and present detailed figures as to the specific loss such items would represent to a boutique manufacturer such as MF on a limited edition item.

Did you go back and read the thread again to find this information?

I doubt it. You chose to dribble spit on your keyboard instead.

Then after you've accomplished all of the above you need to go back and perform the same sort of cost analysis for the "average" MF dealer based on similar projected cost/loss/asstets and income vs credit debt. Do so in detail including all of the items shown in this thread as your guide.

Then finally pinpoint the break in MSRP where a dealer is no longer allowed to make a normal profit when selling a limited edition statement component of which each dealer might receive one to sell and that unit must also be demonstarted. Therefore, deduct from the selling price of the Titan floor model any discount a dealer would be expected to provide a client. Include the cost of the shop and its upkeep, maintenace, month to month operating costs down to the purchase of toilet paper and light bulbs - including the estimated highest average annual cost for utilites and someone to clean the shop on a weekly if not daily schedule, cut the grass or clean away the snow in front of the shop or maintain the parking lot or even provide clean floor mats for the client's safety on a week to week schedule. Also factor in the cost of demonstration facilites and the potential cost of in home delivery and set up and therefore advanced training of staff and employeees who will also need to be paid for their services and any travel or down time for such training and take out the cost of any company owned vehicles and travel to audio shows for both the dealer and the manufacturer. Deduct any advertising monies the manufacturer and the dealer coordinate on. Add in to your figures the loss in profit due to whatever percentage of the total sale price might be deducted by a credit card company and remove that from the dealer's average profit margin against loss and assests vs total debt. Assume the highest amount of credit card service charges since that is invariably the card a client interested in the Titan will want to use. Don't forget local and state taxes and any liability insurance and workers' comp monies removed from the dealers "profit".

After doing this, determine and post the final real world profit margin a dealer might make on a $30k limited edition Titan. Be specific.

That should be pretty simple stuff since that is what you've been ranting about for months. The evidence is all in this thread. Find and use it or STFU.

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

All that said by all parties, there is no real excuse for selling $1K in parts for $7-10K (and not have it noted) aside from hype and greed. Instead of waiting for a $100K item to trickle down the product line to be found at the $20K price break, try selling the $100K item with $10K in parts for that $20K to begin with...Calling something a special edition or limited edition to justify a vast price is no more real here than in the auto industry...after a few 100% markup, one reaches a point where the brand logo stops justifying the price.

As I have noted before, when a reviewer finds such vast overpricing, they have a duty to the reader to note it. Stereophile often does through the comparison system when they note that similar or better performance can be found in another item costing a fraction as much as the item being reviewed.

That is good.

The 100K amp is a hard call. Some of the construction is simply cheap by any standard but the sound of the thing was the best ever heard so...how much of the price is justified? I would have been far more impressed if they had managed the same sound at 1/3 the price, considering the construction, but 'best sound' is, after all, 'best'...

Jan Vigne
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

JIMV you are the same as Alan, you are discounting any proof provided by someone more knowledgeable of the industry than you and countering with nothing more than a "don't charge so much" blindness. In this respect you are even more of johnny one note than Alan and that is saying quite a bit.

Please, if you have nothing more than a ridiculous same ol' same ol' comment to post, wait until you have something new and useful to the advancement of this thread before you post anything.

You might try doing the exercise I described to Alan and show us your calculations in detail. It would be extremely interesting to compare and contrast just how the two outsiders to the industry view the inner workings of the industry you are so vehemently ranting against. You can do your analysis on the Lars while Alan performs his calculations for the Titan. Two very small boutique products each of which provided the best sound available in their respective market.

Please, factor in just how much "best sound" costs.

I await your figures, sir. If you cannot provide such, then you too can politely STFU.

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

Jan

Proof of my understanding of the output transformers. This the Lundahl LL1620PP

http://www.studiomaudio.info/pdf/pricelist.pdf

From this company its 148 Euro which is approx $180

http://diyparadiso.com/price/stock-transfo.htm

Here its 157 euro

http://www.canford.co.uk/search/DefaultG...tart=0&sa=N

This company does not have the exact one in stock but has lots similar for $50-200

Thats 3 companies who are in my stated price range, im sure if i wanted to buy the same unit i could purchase it in the 100 euro range as any manufacturer gets 20-30 % discount from the catalog price.

Are you going to persist with the statement that I have no factual basis for my arguement ?

There is no solution plain and simple, charging ridiculous prices is a rip off. If people with unlimited resources are happy to spend $100 k for this amp then fine. All I am asking is that normal people should not defend this product as being of any real value whatsoever.

Is it still your contention that LARS is justified in charging $100,000 for an amplifier using off the shelf pro audio grade components ?

By the way the reason i quickly picked up on the Lundahl transformer is that we have been using them in our products for 20 years. The ones we use cost about $4 each.

Its OK to admit you are wrong Jan

Alan

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Jan

As to the rest of your waffle.

I only have to make one simple statement.

How can any hifi product or dealer exist selling normal components ( Say $500-$5000 each ) ? all the expenses mentioned exist at that level also.

What use is it stating that you want a full cost analysis of a product when you know i dont have the parts list. Provide em the parts list and ill be glad to do it. As shown in last email the majority of the parts are nowhere near the cost people think. Everyone raves about the latest DAC chip in the Marantz CD SACD player for $7,000 thats a $11 chip !!! componenst are cheap thats why proaudio can build high quality systems and make money at a fraction of the hifi price. I understand that hifi needs more work on the sound quality and that adds cost, as does the dealer etc but it should add maybe 50-200% not 500-5000 % like some of these companies are doing.

Alan

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:
JIMV you are the same as Alan, you are discounting any proof provided by someone more knowledgeable of the industry than you and countering with nothing more than a "don't charge so much" blindness. In this respect you are even more of johnny one note than Alan and that is saying quite a bit.

Please, if you have nothing more than a ridiculous same ol' same ol' comment to post, wait until you have something new and useful to the advancement of this thread before you post anything.

You might try doing the exercise I described to Alan and show us your calculations in detail. It would be extremely interesting to compare and contrast just how the two outsiders to the industry view the inner workings of the industry you are so vehemently ranting against. You can do your analysis on the Lars while Alan performs his calculations for the Titan. Two very small boutique products each of which provided the best sound available in their respective market.

Please, factor in just how much "best sound" costs.

I await your figures, sir. If you cannot provide such, then you too can politely STFU.

All I can point to are the photo's in Hi-Fi plus of near empty box's with a price tag in the thousands...

As to the final comment...I have posted maybe a dozen posts on the topic to your hundred or so...if anyone should stop commenting, it is you...

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

HERE is KBK's distributor claiming he couldn't make a go of it in a retail location with all those incredible dealer markups. Also interesting he feels compelled to openly state that unless you can afford 1500 per transaction don't waste his time...LOL!

Gives me that warm fuzzy feeling!

RG

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

You show me the cost of one isolated transformer you could buy. Yet you show no relationship to anything I requested from you.


Quote:
What use is it stating that you want a full cost analysis of a product when you know i dont have the parts list.


Quote:
Provide em the parts list and ill be glad to do it.

It's your thread, Alan, and your apostrophe-less rant. Do as requested or STFU.

How difficult is that to understand?

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As to the final comment...I have posted maybe a dozen posts on the topic to your hundred or so...if anyone should stop commenting, it is you...

ROTFLMAO!

What? didja' hear a high schooler use that line?

Are you looking for your calculator?

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

As neither of us has said anything NEW or innovative in a dozen pages, and you have posted far more of this repetition, I think my oh so minor point applies....If all you can do is post the same thing over and over, don't tell others to shut up...

Jan Vigne
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On the contrary, it would appear my list of cost/loss/ profits and assets is quite new to Alan. He acts as though he had never seen those ideas before.

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Quote:

When are we going to start demanding reasonable value from manufacturers ?


Value is for the consumer to judge. Audiophiles choose what to purchase based on a range of criteria which companies that stay in business meet. Bryston and Musical Fidelity would both seem to have been fairly successful in doing this in the past.

If audiophiles wanted products based on your criteria rather than the criteria they currently use, and it was commercially viable to produce such products, then there would be plenty on the market.

For example, if one wished to maximise (objective) sound quality in a reasonable sized room for a budget of a few thousand then the straightforward solution would be a large 3/4-way active speakers controlled by a small cheap box with a display, CD/DVD slot and support for a remote. This solution is obvious to everyone with a reasonable understanding of the relative performance and production costs of audio hardware and so should dominate the home audio market at this price point?

The reality is, of course, that (objective) sound quality is not a significantly weighted parameter by consumers in either the audiophile or consumer home audio market sectors. The demand in the proaudio market sector for main monitors is not large and so even though they may be designed to largely meet (objective) sound quality criteria they sell at small volume prices and are ugly. Unlike small 2-way monitors that sell in large quantities at large volume prices and are ugly.

So the free market is not meeting either of our wishes. However, I do not consider this scam or even a problem. It is how a free market operates in a luxury goods sector.

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

Jan

Im losing all respect, you are not making any sense.

You have asked the same questions over and over, we answer them with facts then you ask a new question over and over.

We have given you weblinks to show the cost of parts is not justified yet you still argue.

Its common sense that we do not have the exact costings of MF's business model, neither do you. All along I have stated that it is my perception is that products like the Titan or the LARS are a rip off based on the value of their component parts. You have done absolutely nothing to demonstrate that they are worth it except bitch that everyone in the food chain has to make loads of profit due to the amount of free gear they give to hifi magazines and that no way can a dealer live unless he makes $15,000 profit ( much more than he makes on a $100,000 car !! ).

No doubt you will post another 500,000 word reply with ridiculous requests, but it really is time that you STFU unless you can add some of your own facts, not just bitch that i do not understand how complex it is to build a power amp and sell it.

The other factor that does not get discussed is how much of the glowing review is because it is a $100,000 amplifier ? if it was a $1,000 chinese ampl would it get the same review ? no of course not because that would piss off the advertisers in the magazine. Why do you think that no high end product ever gets a bad review ? have you ever seen a high end peice of equipment just totally slated as being crap in the magazine ? of course not and you never will. US magazines rely on advertising for existance and therefore they cannot be impartial they are nothing more than industry mouthpeices. The fact that you express the same opinions is backed up be the fact you come from the same background of having to promote high end equipment as good value because thats how you got paid.

Alan

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Quote:
Its common sense that we do not have the exact costings of MF's business model, neither do you.

Except that everyone else has tried to show you that your guesses are wildly off the mark. You have ignored or dismissed all those posts.


Quote:
The other factor that does not get discussed is how much of the glowing review is because it is a $100,000 amplifier ? if it was a $1,000 chinese ampl would it get the same review ? no of course not because that would piss off the advertisers in the magazine.

You seem to have an inexhaustible supply of bullshit, Alan. Why in earth would you even read Stereophile if this were true? We give rave reviews to great products that are not made by advertisers all the time. The last analysis I did, round 47% of published reviews were of products from advertisers, 53% from nonadvertisers.

Even when we give a good review to a product from an advertiser, we sometimes compare it with a cheaper product form another company that doesn't advertise. See, for example my recent review of the Bel Canto USB Link: www.stereophile.com/digitalprocessors/bel_canto_usb_link_2496_usb-spdif_converter.


Quote:
have you ever seen a high end peice of equipment just totally slated as being crap in the magazine ? of course not and you never will.

More bullshit. Read Michael Fremer's recent Chord amplifier review and tell me if you think it was positive. Even on the subject of Stereophile's content, you demonstrate dismal ignorance. I respectfully suggest that Stereophile should not be on your regular reading list if you are so incapable of comprehending what it publishes.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:
The other factor that does not get discussed is how much of the glowing review is because it is a $100,000 amplifier ? if it was a $1,000 chinese ampl would it get the same review ? no of course not because that would piss off the advertisers in the magazine. Why do you think that no high end product ever gets a bad review ? have you ever seen a high end peice of equipment just totally slated as being crap in the magazine ? of course not and you never will. US magazines rely on advertising for existance and therefore they cannot be impartial they are nothing more than industry mouthpeices. The fact that you express the same opinions is backed up be the fact you come from the same background of having to promote high end equipment as good value because thats how you got paid.

Alan

Since you clearly have no regard for Stereophile (based on your above post, the mag is biased based on advertising revenue) then why do your waste your time reading it? And why do you also waste your time posting on the Stereophile forums?

Since this is all one big conspiracy between MF, Bryston, Lars, Stereophile, etc to rip you off, then the solution is for you to just avoid reading the mags and buying the products...

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Quote:
HERE is KBK's distributor claiming he couldn't make a go of it in a retail location with all those incredible dealer markups. Also interesting he feels compelled to openly state that unless you can afford 1500 per transaction don't waste his time...LOL!

Gives me that warm fuzzy feeling!

RG

The recent trend in audio, is for cheapskates to ask retailers to stock product so they can hear it..and then they go and buy it on line for a few $ less. Then they wonder why the dealer cannot support that way of doing things. Brian is well known across the entire audio industry in the US as a very honorable and great human being who's interest in audio is all about the music.

We chose Brian as our distributor as he is a friend and great human being, with rock solid morals and ethics which he will not violate. For anyone. Not even himself. After all these years, he still loves audio! What more can you ask for in a person?

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

John

No problem

Cancel my subscription immediately, ill take a partial refund for the months owing.

You have my details from the missed issues.

You are correct in that there is no point reading a magazine which only subscribes to one viewpoint and will not entertain any challange to its editorial approach.

The fact that I only stated that you gave favourable reviews to products that advertise, not that you only review them is of little consequence as its clear you are only interested in pampering to a certain audience and have no interest in a person like myself who has intelligence and enough knowledge to challenge the ivory towers in which you live.

Alan

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

John

Just think, youve already driven off most of the people on the forum by your inability to control JV.

Now you will be able to enjoy his venomous attacks on every newcomer as there will be nothing left if you keep on with the approach of eliminating any different thoughts.

Just like the other people who dont encorage thought and debate, Hitler, Stalin, Amin you know the other well known free thinkers of life you will eventually figure out that a magazine/forum without lively debate is nothing more than a dictatorship.

That is excatly what you coming across as John.

Alan

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Quote:
John

Just think, youve already driven off most of the people on the forum by your inability to control JV.

Now you will be able to enjoy his venomous attacks on every newcomer as there will be nothing left if you keep on with the approach of eliminating any different thoughts.

Just like the other people who dont encorage thought and debate, Hitler, Stalin, Amin you know the other well known free thinkers of life you will eventually figure out that a magazine/forum without lively debate is nothing more than a dictatorship.

That is excatly what you coming across as John.

Alan

You know, if you are going to leave anyway, take advantage of the ban one, get one free rule!

If you choose to ban me, I'll understand.

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:
You have done absolutely nothing to demonstrate that they are worth it except bitch that everyone in the food chain has to make loads of profit due to the amount of free gear they give to hifi magazines and that no way can a dealer live unless he makes $15,000 profit ( much more than he makes on a $100,000 car !! ).

Anyone care to guess how much profit an audio dealer makes when they sell a $100k automobile?

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

mmmm

Who to pick !!!

Of course its obvious, thing is i would never do that.

Unlike Fuhrer Atkinson or head of SS Jan I actually do believe in free speech and thought, just as long as you keep it on the issue and dont make it personnal

Alan

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:

Quote:
Love the rule!

I felt it appropriate because if someone is sincere about wanting to suppress freedom of speech for another forum member, then he should be prepared to accept it for himself. No pain, no gain.

If you don't like the rule, then stop emailing Stephen asking for him to ban someone or stop posting messages asking for someone to be banned.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

John

Based on your own rules that anyone asking for a ban should be banned themselves ? does that mean that you should not read the magazine also ?

Alan

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Quote:
... head of SS Jan ...

Nuh-uh! I use tubes.

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You seem to have an inexhaustible supply of bullshit, Alan.

Coming from the editor of Stereophile, that's mighty rich.

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Quote:
Based on your own rules that anyone asking for a ban should be banned themselves ? does that mean that you should not read the magazine also ?

There is no such rule on this forum. I suggested that there _should_ be such a rule to calm down all the demands from posters that other posters be banned.

And I am [not] demanding that you not read Stereophile, merely pointing out that if you have such a cynical view of its content, it is difficult to see why you read the magazine.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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Quote:
Just think, youve already driven off most of the people on the forum by your inability to control JV.

I don't believe that is the case.


Quote:
Now you will be able to enjoy his venomous attacks on every newcomer as there will be nothing left if you keep on with the approach of eliminating any different thoughts.

First, Jan Vigne hasn't attacked newbies, as far I as I can find. He also offers much valuable advice. However, he does over-react somewhat.

Second, I don't see how I am supposed to be suppressing "different thoughts." You came here with your mind made up on certain issues and far from discussing them with others, have appeared to demand that others who have actual knowledge of those issues acknowledge that your uninformed opinion is of equal weight to theirs. When they have protested, you have called them names, implied their motives are corrupt, and so on - anything to avoid admitting that they might have a point or that they might know more about this subject than you do.


Quote:
Just like the other people who dont encorage thought and debate, Hitler, Stalin, Amin you know the other well known free thinkers of life you will eventually figure out that a magazine/forum without lively debate is nothing more than a dictatorship. That is excatly what you coming across as John.

It appears that, according to Godwin's Law (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law ), you are conceding defeat, Alan :-)

Seriously, I have not tried to suppress anyone's opinion, least of all yours. What I have done is offer an opposing opinion supported by factual evidence. If you feel that my doing so is suppression, then that is a revealing projection on your part.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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Quote:
John

No problem

Cancel my subscription immediately, ill take a partial refund for the months owing.

You have my details from the missed issues.

Sorry, I can't do that. There some things a man has to do for himself.


Quote:
You are correct in that there is no point reading a magazine which only subscribes to one viewpoint and will not entertain any challange to its editorial approach.

Your paraphrase bears no resemblance to anything I have said, written, or done. All I said was that if you are so distrustful of Stereophile's content and the motives of those who create that content, it is difficult to see why you read the magazine in the first place.


Quote:
The fact that I only stated that you gave favourable reviews to products that advertise, not that you only review them is of little consequence as its clear you are only interested in pampering to a certain audience and have no interest in a person like myself who has intelligence and enough knowledge to challenge the ivory towers in which you live.

All I have done, Alan, is point out that the facts do not support your opinions. Sorry if you feel that my doing so is a comment on your intelligence.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

John

Sorry I must have misread some of your comments.

Please for my benefit could you repeat the facts that demonstrate that the Lars amp is justifiably $100,000.

I will gladly shut up on this issue if you can present a reeasoned argument why this amp is $100,000. The only caveat being this argument needs to be based on the actual components used ( generalisation accepted ) and not on ficticious things like intellectual property.

It is my contention that you are serving the manufacturers more that the subscribers on the issue of equipment costs, if this amp was priced with my logic it would be around $10,000 and therefore available to a lot more people.

Alan
Alan

Jan Vigne
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

Intellectual property is "ficticious"? I suppose in your world of off the shelf parts copyrights are also ficticious?


Quote:
... if this amp was priced with my logic it would be around $10,000 ...

Show your work. Use the examples I provided in my earlier post. Please, be specific, complete and factual.

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

Jan

ladies first

Alan

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:
John

Sorry I must have misread some of your comments.

Please for my benefit could you repeat the facts that demonstrate that the Lars amp is justifiably $100,000.

I will gladly shut up on this issue if you can present a reeasoned argument why this amp is $100,000. The only caveat being this argument needs to be based on the actual components used ( generalisation accepted ) and not on ficticious things like intellectual property.

It is my contention that you are serving the manufacturers more that the subscribers on the issue of equipment costs, if this amp was priced with my logic it would be around $10,000 and therefore available to a lot more people.

Alan
Alan

Welsh, sir, I don't think that boat will float.

The only reason required to 'validate' a 100 large price tag on an amp is whether or not anyone buys it.

Heck, even if nobody buys it, it's the manufacturer's to build and price as he pleases.

You are allowed to call it a rip off, but no one is required to objectively refute your claim.

Why is a bottle of Romanee Conti Burgundy 'worth' 30 grand?

Why is Heather Mill's vagina worth 50 million? (Prorated, she probably made 500,000 per act!)

"Value" can be ineffable.

No proof for either side.

However, the "Stockholmers," as a group, don't seem able to ever find a line where they will call a product like that a 'rip off,' no matter the price.

I wonder what the Lars will do to the average amp price reviewed for the year?

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:

Quote:
You are correct in that there is no point reading a magazine which only subscribes to one viewpoint and will not entertain any challange to its editorial approach.


Quote:
Your paraphrase bears no resemblance to anything I have said, written, or done. All I said was that if you are so distrustful of Stereophile's content and the motives of those who create that content, it is difficult to see why you read the magazine in the first place.

No response, but see http://news.yahoo.com/comics/uclickcomics/20090601/cx_nq_uc/nq20090601


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The fact that I only stated that you gave favourable reviews to products that advertise, not that you only review them is of little consequence as its clear you are only interested in pampering to a certain audience and have no interest in a person like myself who has intelligence and enough knowledge to challenge the ivory towers in which you live.

All I have done, Alan, is point out that the facts do not support your opinions. Sorry if you feel that my doing so is a comment on your intelligence.

Sorry I must have misread some of your comments.

I believe you have done so.


Quote:

Please for my benefit could you repeat the facts that demonstrate that the Lars amp is justifiably $100,000.

Repeat? I have been discussing the $30,000 Musical Fidelity amplifier you mentioned in your first posting. I haven't made any comment on the Lars amplifier. However, Art Dudley addressed the matter of the Lars's price in his June "Listening" column. I refer you to his text.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

I thought Dudley addressed the amp pretty well...how does one address a very expensive item with some shoddy build that sounds wonderful? He made a very good stab at it.

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Quote:
I thought Dudley addressed the amp pretty well...how does one address a very expensive item with some shoddy build that sounds wonderful? He made a very good stab at it.

Rumor has it that Robin Leach will be writing the follow up!

Just got the new issue of "Automobile."

The new Lamborghini Murcielago LP670-4 Super Veloce is 450,000 dollars.

What a rip off.

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:
The new Lamborghini Murcielago LP670-4 Super Veloce is 450,000 dollars.

What a rip off.


I heard it's faster when the tires are demagnetized.

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

One good thing has come of this thread:

It convinced me to read AD's review of the LARS...

Basically he felt they could have stripped away all the crap and sold the amp for $20K rather than $100K...

Such commentary (the Lars review and the Bel Canto USB link) shows clearly that Stereophile writers are willing to say when they feel products are seriously overpriced...

So seriously, what is the point of this thread then? I am to believe that Stereophile will be honest about LARS and Bel Canto, but lie about MF? Is it just that the OP thinks no products above what he can afford should be produced?

This thread is really stupid but at least it is entertaining...

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