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Ajani
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

A few points I want to address:

1) If a company spends 2 - 7 years designing, testing and refining a product, then is it fair to look at the cost in raw parts to produce a unit and claim that the gear is overpriced?

2) If the issue is dealer markup, then there are many online (direct to customer) brands emerging that skip that middle man... But do we really want HiFi to move to being only online ordering? To lose the ability to walk into a HiFi shop and try out new gear for hours?

3) I still fail to see how MF producing a $30K amp in anyway harms the lower end of the market... I've heard many persons complain that back in the day, the goal was to own the monitors and equipment used in the recording studio etc etc... whereas now getting SOTA is unattainable... But my problem with this criticism is A)You can own recording studio quality gear for a reasonable price - just check my signature - less than $2K for a Class A setup used in studios B) The persons complaining haven't shown that multipliers back in the day were less "ripoff" than the ones used now. It seems that companies are now willing to produce ridiculously expensive ultra-reference gear, and not that they are selling the same old stuff at hyper-inflated prices...

From what I see, now is a great time to be an audiophile, there is so much great gear available at any price range... From a simple ipod with an upgraded set of headphones all the way up to Ferrari priced speakers and amplification... You won't be able to get the bragging rights that your moderately expensive gear is the "best available" as you might have decades ago, but so what? Is this hobby about bragging rights or good music?

JIMV
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

You had best insure your expensive gear is protected from EMP...the barbarians in North Korea set of a new nuke today.

KBK
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

Are they really barbarians? Or are they people like you and me - under different circumstances? Who set off nukes in populated areas and killed 100's of thousands...and who has many thousands of them? Hopefully you were joking.

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:
Are they really barbarians? Or are they people like you and me - under different circumstances? Who set off nukes in populated areas and killed 100's of thousands...and who has many thousands of them? Hopefully you were joking.

Wrong forum for the question and I am sorry I put my note here, but in answer to your question, yes, they are the human equivalent to rabid dogs...they cannot be cured and must be controlled.

Buddha
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

Anyway, did anyone also notice that the Titan had a hum and has had to be retrofitted?

"Noticeable transformer hum."

I'm starting to wonder if there is a "Curse of Fremer" that makes these high priced babies exhibit problems. The 23K CD player, the cables that didn't conduct signal properly...poor MF! I wonder if he feels snake bit here and there.

Welshsox
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

Strange that a $30,000 product hums. Maybe there was not as much development as people thought.

KBK
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

The AC in the UK is 'balanced'. In the US, the people who put together the AC power grid wanted to save, literally, a few pennies per mile of line.

So they created the 'hot' and 'neutral' (rail) system , which is VASTLY inferior and inherently radiates a HUGE amount of EMI into people and the surroundings.

The retro-fit to fix the hum is a minor thing, but it is essentially dealing with the inferior USA AC power grid, is my guess.

Read carefully, Alan. Only 40 made. Mike Fremer ~very~ likely has the first one introduced to this country. Note the issue was fixed, ie retro-fittable. This is likely due to the fact that Musical Fidelity has great experiences in dealing with this exact issue from all the other gear they have produced.

As we see here, it is possible to lead a person toward the idea of having a balanced and fair viewpoint, but one cannot make them see the light of day. You are really looking like a petulant child kicking the back of the car seat, Alan.

Linear power supplies in audio gear in the US and Canada, for example..inherently sound better in the UK, as the balanced AC helps out in a notable manner. Which is why I tend to recommend that people try out balanced AC for their audio systems here in North America- It is a 'whole system' upgrade.

Buddha
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

How are people feeling about the 'value' of the hundred grand amplifier? The Lars.

KBK, how do you suppose the retro-fit would alter the sound of the Titan amp?

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

Didn't they also review an expensive DAC with hum as well recently? I am glad they note the issue in their reviews.

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

That is a good question...The cage is what I would call junk and the top sheet metal but the thing sounds like the best thing ever...obviously the money went into places other than case and appearance. Is something with a lot of cheap construction but with amazing sound worth the price? I personally do not think any piece of electronics is worth $100K unless it came with this:

as a 'remote'...

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:

KBK, how do you suppose the retro-fit would alter the sound of the Titan amp?

I suspect it would not change it at all. But I'm ready to be surprised. One should always be ready to be surprised - it's the only way to learn anything new.

What happens to most gear used on the USA/Canada unbalanced AC power 'hot-neutral' system, is a blur and hash is introduced as slight masking of detail and a very slight false emphasis of transient detail that is false. Ie, dirty transients mistaken as detail.

Sound like a familiar story? As in -almost very piece of audio gear you have ever heard?

When we start plugging gear into the 220V (USA=208VAC?..Canada has a 240VAC) two phase lines then gear tends to sound notably better. Some of the more high powered gear out there in North America these days utilizes this power delivery system, and it does bring more current, and also the aforementioned increase in fidelity simply due to the cancellation of noise that comes from utilizing balanced AC.

With digital power supplies..even if one creates a stable voltage rail..micro stutter of of the total ground current is still there. As the whole point of a power amplifier is to use the output transistors as a controlled gating of the total power (ground current and all, as a loop, the complex LCR of the loop system)..as modulated against a ground reference...and this micro stutter is hiding in the total current flow of the entire system (a stable voltage rail isn't the whole picture!)...then the noise generated by the digital power supply is still there and modulating the system.

The point that really drives this home is that the electron flow view of electrical function, which is the correct one...shows that the ground is actually the source and that it logically follows that the source of the sonics of a given piece of gear is quite notably inclusive of the total sum characteristic of the ground in the system, and the entire way that the ground is designed and enacted.

Balanced AC takes -some- of that issue away, as does a balanced amplifier output design.

Just to toss some info out there that messes with the given engineer that might read this..there are now experimental battery type systems out there these days that are altering their mass to the tune of nearly 10%(!!) between their charge levels, ie charged to fully discharged. Whoa!! "Something is really freaking different out there in Batman land", says Robin. Investigate. Find the fun stuff. Lead-don't follow. Turns out it's all of the nanoscale and (David Hudson-look it up -read, read, read!!) monatomic multi-dimensional stuff of 'cooper-paired' design/origin.

Yes, nano scale battery design and efficiency efforts are now touching directly on and into true and real dimensional transform.

Edit: I will clarify, though, that my above mental musings have squat to do with the Musical Fidelity Amplifier that is apparently the topic of this discussion.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:
You are really looking like a petulant child kicking the back of the car seat, Alan.


Quote:
I just will not accept that $30,000 is anything less than a rip off.
I just will not accept that
I just will not accept that

Alan, stop that, it's annoying.


Quote:
will not will not will not will not will not will not will not will not will not will not will not will not will not will not will not will not

Alan, stop that!


Quote:
will not will not will not will not will not will not will not will not will not will not will not will not will not will not will not will not will not will not will not will not will not will not will not will not will not will not will not will not will not will not will not will not

SCREEEEEEECH!

ALRIGHT! I HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF THAT!

YOU, ALAN, GET OUT OF THIS CAR!

NOW!!!

AND DON'T COME BACK UNTIL YOU'VE LEARNED SOME MANNERS!

Welshsox
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

Jan

Did you figure out the Monet thing yet ?

Im intrigued by Monet's knowledge of hifi

Alan

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

God, Alan, it wasn't me that had a problem with the Monet "thing".


Quote:
Explain that one again ?

A smaller Monet is a trickle down effect of a big Monet ?

Welsh hifi
Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off [Re: Jan Vigne]
#68603 - 05/24/09 03:27 PM

"Petulant" is too kind when describing you.

"Petulant; 1 : insolent or rude in speech or behavior
2 : characterized by temporary or capricious ill humor : PEEVISH

Synonyms IRRITABLE, fractious, fretful, huffy, peevish, pettish, querulous, snappish, waspish, waspy
Related Word grouchy, sulky"

Actually, none of those even come close either.

PITA works.

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

"An insult from an idiot should be considered a compliment " not who said it but it sure seems to apply with you Jan !!!

Jan Vigne
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

I'm sure you've heard it when someone was talking about you. As usual you weren't paying real close attention.

Well, that proves the amplifier is overpriced, doesn't it?

And that's how much proof you have had through this entire thread and the dozen before it on the exact same topic - just a different product you were ranting about.

You have no proof but you just won't settle for any answer other than the one you want to hear. And it's not coming, is it?

Why aren't you on the roof tonight, Alan? Out of beer bottles?

Welshsox
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

Jan

Without having the MF BOM for that amp how am i suppose to prove it's overpriced ? I know the perceived value is extremely poor.

Youve already stated that you think 500-800 % mark up with 50% dealer margin is perfectly acceptable although of course you never actually buy anything and JA gets everything at trade or dealer discounts.

Now you just trying to get away from the basic issues with your BS.

Alan

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:

Without having the MF BOM for that amp how am i suppose to prove it's overpriced ?

That's the point I have been trying to get you to admit: That your claim that this amplifier is a ripoff is not based on actual knowledge but on conjecture. Yet you have rejected the contrary opinions of those who do have actual knowledge.


Quote:
I know the perceived value is extremely poor.

No, this is your _opinion_. That you hold this opinion is not necessarily shared by others.


Quote:
Youve already stated that you think 500-800 % mark up with 50% dealer margin is perfectly acceptable...

Again you miss the point. A ratio of 5:1 retail price:parts cost is typical for relatively small audio companies. Less than that and they become financially unstable, with the highest-profile example being Audio Alchemy. More than that and the company becomes vulnerable to competition and also becomes financially unstable. BTW, see the discussion of this subject at http://blog.stereophile.com/ces2009/rappin_up_in_a_down_year/#COMMENT, regarding the pricing of Simaudio's i-1 amplifier.

Similarly with retailers: if they take too large a slice of the pie, they will be vulnerable to competition from less-greedy peers.


Quote:
although of course ...JA gets everything at trade or dealer discounts.

I don't see what relevance this is. Any statement I make on value is related to a product's retail price.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Jan Vigne
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

OK, now I see why you're not up on the roof. You brought your empties here and thought you'd sling a few at us.


Quote:
Without having the MF BOM for that amp how am i suppose to prove it's overpriced ?

I don't know, Alan, and I'm not the person to ask. That's your problem since you started this thread just like you've started a dozen other threads just like this one and you haven't been able to prove anything in any of those threads either. A reasonable person would have taken the clue by now.

But then ...


Quote:
I know the perceived value is extremely poor.

How do you know that? Simply because you refure to accept any other answer?

Well! there you have it! The end of this thread and we can wait for next month's issue before you find another piece of equipment to pile onto with bogus charges of "rip off".


Quote:
Youve already stated that you think 500-800 % mark up with 50% dealer margin is perfectly acceptable ...

Not quite, Alan. Have you been taking lessons on forum etiquette from jj? "How to twist words, 101A"?

What I have said is there is a typical 5:1 ratio from production cost to MSRP. What you can't understand is "production cost" even though what that entails has been spelled out for you numerous times. If you could understand "production cost", you still can't understand - or refuse to accept - what that ratio involves.

I never said 50% dealer margin is acceptable, I have said 50% is not uncommon for some products. That is a statement which even you, earlier in this very thread, admit is acceptable for certain items. So back off, jack.

What you have stepped around several times is the question you have been asked to provide - where does the break point occur? Where should a dealer not make their money back on a purchase they make with their own funds to provide a client with a product for audition? You've allowed a dealer should make a 50% margin on "small" items. Does that mean you want a dealer who only sells cables and record cleaners? Maybe a $295 speaker? Where is your break point for going from "small" to "obscene profit"?

And what does that have to do with the production cost of the Titan amplifier?


Quote:
although of course you never actually buy anything and JA gets everything at trade or dealer discounts.

How do you get this all so twisted? I hang onto my main components for long periods of time. Is that a crime, Alan? If so, explain how that is. I'm not constantly supporting the dealers and manufacturers who you say are preying on the public. So how is holding on to an amplifier a bad thing? Please, tell me. I'd very much like to know just how you rationalize that slur.

And your comment about JA?! Well, now we're back to what this is all about, aren't we? You cannot aford what you want, which is the SOTA system you feel you deserve, and so you're just pissed at anyone who has such a system. It's not aout how much they paid for it, because paying for a SOTA system is still not cheap, but it's about you can't have something and so you are whining on and on about what you can't have.

Thanks for clearing that up, Alan.


Quote:
Now you just trying to get away from the basic issues with your BS.

Right again! The facts you refuse to admit exist are just the BS of someone who knows more than you do.

I hear the roof calling you, Alan.

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

John

By the same logic as you state i have no proof its overpriced nobody has provided and evidence to show it is worth $30,000. Your statements are as equally subjective as mine.

You state that how you acquire hif is not a factor, i totally disagree. If you had to pay $30,000 of your own money for this product you examine its value proposition in a different light. Its easy to say its not overpriced when its not your money.

Alan

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:
John

By the same logic as you state i have no proof its overpriced nobody has provided and evidence to show it is worth $30,000. Your statements are as equally subjective as mine.

You state that how you acquire hif is not a factor, i totally disagree. If you had to pay $30,000 of your own money for this product you examine its value proposition in a different light. Its easy to say its not overpriced when its not your money.

Alan

A classic argument with no definitive resolution.

JA, how would you react if the Titan were priced at the same point as the Lars?

I'd love to see what price points items become 'rip offs' to people.

_____

For the prices placed on some gear, I wonder if any of these manufacturers ever made hammers or toliet seats for the US Government.

Then again, who am I to judge the relative value of a really great hammer? Or a toilet seat?

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:
John

By the same logic as you state i have no proof its overpriced nobody has provided and evidence to show it is worth $30,000. Your statements are as equally subjective as mine.

You state that how you acquire hif is not a factor, i totally disagree. If you had to pay $30,000 of your own money for this product you examine its value proposition in a different light. Its easy to say its not overpriced when its not your money.

Alan

A few quick points:

1) The general assertion is that people are innocent until proven guilty... So the onus is on the person making the allegations that someone is doing something wrong/illegal... In this case: you - since you are claiming the product is a ripoff.... Just as if I claim you are a thief, it is up to me to prove that allegation and not up to you to prove that you're not a thief...

2) JA has provided proof of its value... The review and technical measurements in Stereophile... That is the obvious basis for why he doesn't regard the product as a ripoff... You have not auditioned the product, taken measurements or even peeked at the components inside the box... but you still claim the product is a ripoff... based on what? Your gut feeling?

Jan Vigne
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:
I'd love to see what price points items become 'rip offs' to people.

And I'd love to see Alan actually answer that question since he's avoided it several times.

At what point does a product become less profitable for the dealer and the manufacturre?

For someone so certain various components are not worth their asking price, this would appear to be an easy question to answer.

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:
...you still claim the product is a ripoff... based on what?

Based on his opinion as a consumer!

That's all that's required.

There are plenty of people in this world who think a complete system costing over a thousand bucks is a rip off.

Everybody is right. (It's when they extrapolate from themselve to others that the trouble starts.)

If the Titan cost a billion dollars, maybe even JA would consider it a rip off.

We all have our boundary between value and rip off. Welsh mentioned his. Others, not so much.

Welsh Hi Fi was quite up front about where this line is for him. I admit to leaning his direction on a 30,000 dollar stereo amplifier and 'value.' You, however, may consider it a relative value. We're both right.

I don't think some chick's purse could be worth $37,000 for an Herm

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

i have enjoyed this little tug-of-war. whether this amp is a rip-off or not and the machine's true value will be determined as it always is, by the marketplace. yes, the sticker price may be $30 large, however, if no one steps up at that price, it's value will be something less, maybe $25 large, or even less. if the market determines that the true value is $25, and you subsequently are asked to pay $30, then you may indeed be able to make the rip off argument. what do you think all of those rebates and low financing incentives on cars are all about? products that the marketplace does not value at the asking price.
a fine recent example are the 550k superchargers now available at 1/2 the original asking price. if someone now asked you to pay the original price, they would indeed be trying to rip you off, but of course, they could not do so without your permission.

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

The suggested retail for the Titan was originally probably 15K till AM agreed to let MF review it, JA measure it and god knows who else followup!

RG

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:

Quote:
...you still claim the product is a ripoff... based on what?

Based on his opinion as a consumer!

That's all that's required.

There are plenty of people in this world who think a complete system costing over a thousand bucks is a rip off.

Everybody is right. (It's when they extrapolate from themselve to others that the trouble starts.)

If the Titan cost a billion dollars, maybe even JA would consider it a rip off.

We all have our boundary between value and rip off. Welsh mentioned his. Others, not so much.

Welsh Hi Fi was quite up front about where this line is for him. I admit to leaning his direction on a 30,000 dollar stereo amplifier and 'value.' You, however, may consider it a relative value. We're both right.

I don't think some chick's purse could be worth $37,000 for an Herm

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:
A fine recent example are the 550k superchargers now available at 1/2 the original asking price. if someone now asked you to pay the original price, they would indeed be trying to rip you off, but of course, they could not do so without your permission.

Seems both are Category A level product. A shoot out may be in order!

Maybe it's all a semantic thing.

The marketplace may determine the amp's 'value,' but does it determine its 'worth?'

For Welsh Hi Fi, it may be an obvious 'rip off.'

Speaking of cars, maybe Welsh can go down to the Mini Cooper dealer and look at their top of the line car and do a little mental comparison and find the Titan wanting in terms of who can accomplish more for that 30 grand.

Maybe it's a 'comparative rip off' to him.

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
...you still claim the product is a ripoff... based on what?

Based on his opinion as a consumer!

That's all that's required.

There are plenty of people in this world who think a complete system costing over a thousand bucks is a rip off.

Everybody is right. (It's when they extrapolate from themselve to others that the trouble starts.)

If the Titan cost a billion dollars, maybe even JA would consider it a rip off.

We all have our boundary between value and rip off. Welsh mentioned his. Others, not so much.

Welsh Hi Fi was quite up front about where this line is for him. I admit to leaning his direction on a 30,000 dollar stereo amplifier and 'value.' You, however, may consider it a relative value. We're both right.

I don't think some chick's purse could be worth $37,000 for an Herm

Buddha
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

Yowza!

Chopard's 25 million dollar wrist watch!

Quote:

"Yes, you read that right: twenty-five million dollars. This gaudy timepiece by Chopard is adorned with three heart-shaped diamonds

Ajani
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:
We all have our boundary between value and rip off. Welsh mentioned his. Others, not so much.

Welsh Hi Fi was quite up front about where this line is for him. I admit to leaning his direction on a 30,000 dollar stereo amplifier and 'value.' You, however, may consider it a relative value. We're both right.

I forgot to mention this in my earlier reply:

Even if I had the money, I wouldn't buy a $30K amp... My idea of great value is components in the $1K to $2K range... so a totally system cost of $3K to $6K... A $100K setup (based around a $30K amp) might well be capable of transporting me to a 3D experience where I can enjoy the music as if it were live... but since for less than $100K, I could go see an actual live band every night for the rest of my life, I wouldn't be willing to spend the $100K on a stereo...

However, that is totally different from me claiming that the $100K setup is a ripoff and should be sold for only $15K... That claim would require me to show that there are $15K setups that are just as capable of delivering the same 3D experience or at least that the $100K setup could be produced for that price...

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:
Yowza!

Chopard's 25 million dollar wrist watch!

Quote:

"Yes, you read that right: twenty-five million dollars. This gaudy timepiece by Chopard is adorned with three heart-shaped diamonds

Buddha
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

I missed the boycott part! I thought we were just comparing feelings about how to price the Titan.

Although, I am already a de facto boycotter of Chopard watches!

Your point is perfect about people buying luxury items.

Sometimes, getting "ripped off" is what allows a consumer to feel better about himself and provides exclusivity of ownership. How can you put a price on such benefit?

I'd call the Titan a luxury good and leave it at that for how we determine value.

You raised a great point in all this - we are a hobby that consists purely of luxury products, yet we have arguments within that same hobby about 'value!'

We're all Bozos on this bus, when ya get right down to it.

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

Well, I have to agree with Alan on this one, yet I don't see why Musical Fidelity is being singled out here. To me, it's like saying "Politician XYZ is corrupt!" .

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:
I missed the boycott part! I thought we were just comparing feelings about how to price the Titan.

Although, I am already a de facto boycotter of Chopard watches!

Your point is perfect about people buying luxury items.

Sometimes, getting "ripped off" is what allows a consumer to feel better about himself and provides exclusivity of ownership. How can you put a price on such benefit?

I'd call the Titan a luxury good and leave it at that for how we determine value.

You raised a great point in all this - we are a hobby that consists purely of luxury products, yet we have arguments within that same hobby about 'value!'

We're all Bozos on this bus, when ya get right down to it.

Yep... pretty much...

I 100% agree on the reference to High End as luxury items... that's something we too often forget when debating audio.... Too often I've seen persons with $15K to $20K setups complaining that $150K setups are destroying the credibility of this hobby and making us a joke... without even realizing that to the average man, $15K for a 2 channel setup is a freaking joke and severe extravagance... heck, even $2K is too much for many non-audiophiles...

It's really just a matter of how much luxury you are willing to treat yourself to...

Welshsox
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

Jan

Ive already answered that question.

As usual you are trying to simplify things to a level you can understand. Raw costs + burden + margin + distributor/manufacturers rep + dealer is a complicated calculation that cannot be answered with a simple percentage at each stage.

Every company has varying margins on its products dictated ny market forces.

What I keep on saying and you cannot comprehend is that very high end hifi is extremely poor value for money and you are being ripped off. These rip off prices have only come about in the last 10-15 years.

I understand these are luxury items but they are still rip off luxury items.

If you go back to he 70's you had companies like Revox, Linn, Naim, Mcintosh, KEF etc selling their top line poducts for very reasonable amounts, thats in relative dollars not absolute.

I do not understand how you can argue that we are not being ripped off if in 1975 the best amplifier available cost a typical guy a months pay, now it costs a years pay and the build quality and component count has not changed. The companies in 1975 still made a nice profit and dealers were supported happily.

Alan

Buddha
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

Thinking of the Lars review and some others, I'd say build quality may have diminished in some price segments.

On the other hand, the trickle down has been pretty darned good. Ethan's 150 dollar Pioneer receiver is sonically no worse, or even better, than the pinnacle of what could be achieved in 1975 at any price!

Moore's Law at the low end of the price scale, and 'watch collectors' at the top!

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:
..........................
What I keep on saying and you cannot comprehend is that very high end hifi is extremely poor value for money and you are being ripped off. These rip off prices have only come about in the last 10-15 years.

I understand these are luxury items but they are still rip off luxury items.

If you go back to he 70's you had companies like Revox, Linn, Naim, Mcintosh, KEF etc selling their top line poducts for very reasonable amounts, thats in relative dollars not absolute.

I do not understand how you can argue that we are not being ripped off if in 1975 the best amplifier available cost a typical guy a months pay, now it costs a years pay and the build quality and component count has not changed. The companies in 1975 still made a nice profit and dealers were supported happily.

Alan

In 1972 the top product in NAD's line was what? The 3020? available for very little money... in 2009 the top product will be the M2 for $6K...

Does that mean that NAD customers are being ripped off because they can no longer buy NAD's best product for very little? Nope... as the updated alternatives to the 3020 would be the C315BEE for $350 or the C326BEE for $500... all that has really happened is that NAD has expanded their product range significantly into higher price ranges... NAD has not just started charging insane prices for the same old gear...

So no longer being able to buy the "top product" in a manufacturer's range does not mean that they are now ripping you off...

Welshsox
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

Agreed

But the M2 for 6K ?

We all know that Class D amps are cheap to manufacture, so again the value of the M2 is extremely poor compared to the 315 for $350 which is the polar oposite and represents great value.

This is a typical example of a company exploiting the ability to charge stupid money.

Alan

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:
Agreed

But the M2 for 6K ?

We all know that Class D amps are cheap to manufacture, so again the value of the M2 is extremely poor compared to the 315 for $350 which is the polar oposite and represents great value.

This is a typical example of a company exploiting the ability to charge stupid money.

Alan

Possibly... NAD is in business to make money, so if they feel that there is money to be made with even more luxurious products, then they will... As long as they keep producing good budget gear like the C315 and C326, then they could produce a $100K amp for all I'd care...

The reason why I to some degree encourage manufacturers to produce statement pieces is because of the eventual trickle down effect... Using Musical Fidelity as an example... they had a $10K Integrated called the KW 550 that I was never going to buy... but I heard the X-T100 (a 50 watt, $1500 integrated amp, based on the design of the KW550 - external power supply, tubed preamp, yackity, yackity) with a pair of moderately sensitive speakers and found it to be magnificent...

Same thing with Revel's Studio 2 versus their Concerta F12...

I wouldn't spend the $25K for the KW550 & Studio 2, but I would spend $3K for the X-T100 & Concerta F12, that were derived from those products...

So I'm happy when manufacturers use rich buyers as their testing ground for new tech, that will eventually trickle down to gear I'd actually buy...

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:
Agreed

But the M2 for 6K ?

We all know that Class D amps are cheap to manufacture, so again the value of the M2 is extremely poor compared to the 315 for $350 which is the polar opposite and represents great value.

This is a typical example of a company exploiting the ability to charge stupid money.

Alan

There you go again.

Your total mis-step has been highlighted.

You have decided, for the rest of us, that all class D amp designs sound the same.

Therefore - expensive ones, ones that have all sonic characteristics that require better thinking on the subject and better design selections..selections that tend to cost more money to execute....those designs are a rip-off. You have seemingly decided for us, that any pursuit of higher quality better sounding audio gear is against all rules that you live and exist by. That's what it looks like from here, Alan. Please understand what you are projecting into the world, as it is not a pleasant or balanced thing.

Thank you for that logic. I'll add it to the pile of ill thought out junk that I dismiss from my life on a daily basis.

You should try and understand that this limited world view that you posses (and attempt to bluntly enforce) is part and parcel of why the world is in such a sorry shit pile of a state today. Yes, there definitely is something drastically wrong with your thought patterns and ideas on a very deep level. Sadly, you are far from alone in your possession of such a mental state.

Welshsox
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

Why do you think you know better ?

Are you directly involved professionally on a daily basis with audio system design and manufacture ?

I am and that is what i believe gives the knowledge to form my thoughts.

It is clear that you are very happy to let the audio manufacturers charge you whatever they feel like and you will pay full retail.

In which case good luck to you, the more gullible people like you there are the more reasonably priced second kit there will be in the marketplace.

Alan

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:

Are you directly involved professionally on a daily basis with audio system design and manufacture ?

YES.


Quote:

I am and that is what i believe gives the knowledge to form my thoughts.

I seriously fucking doubt that.


Quote:

It is clear that you are very happy to let the audio manufacturers charge you whatever they feel like and you will pay full retail.

In which case good luck to you, the more gullible people like you there are the more reasonably priced second kit there will be in the marketplace.

Alan

I don't know what you are here, Alan, but I'm sure you aren't involved in the high-end audio business.

No person in their right mind (who is in the business) would come here and trash audio like you do and then ask questions about audio set up like you have in the other forum areas. The level of ignorance they have shown about audio, in those questions and threads..clearly illustrates that you don't know shit about audio.

If you are just beginning and are attempting to be in the audio business, I wish you the best..but don't come along and attack others. that is the worst thing you can do to yourself,and you damage others for no reason with such rubbish. It has never worked, not for anyone.

You are reminding me of the scene in 'The Outlaw Josey Wales', where the kid that had recognized Josey..comes back into the bar and stares at Josey..and stammers.."I had to come back". "I know", Josey says. And then the kid attempts to draw and Josey blows him away. Josey gets up, and unhappily throws a silver piece on the counter for the burial of the kid. He walks out unhappy that he had to shoot another kid that attacked him for no reason other than the kid never had time to grow up and get some learning under his belt.

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:
Are you directly involved professionally on a daily basis with audio system design and manufacture ?


Quote:
YES.

Actually, you could be a bit more forthcoming by disclosing to all here that you, IIRC, manufacture $1,000.00 and up per meter cables as well as $500.00 per gallon paint for video screens.

RG

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:
... the more gullible people like you there are the more reasonably priced second kit there will be in the marketplace.

To dispute "gullible" with you would be, as always, a waste of my time. But to the rest of your sentence - yes! Exactly!

Why the hell haven't you figured this out before now?

Statement pieces are exactly that. It was laid out in the review. The budget pieces that accompany the Titan were discussed.

You ignored them because you want to rant on and on.

Designers design top items to learn. You don't appear to be interested in learning anything.

From what I gather, your involvement in "audio", outside of bitching about prices, constitutes ordering parts for other people's designs. Your "expertise" is in ordering from the lowest bidder.

"Trickle down" is not in your vocabulary.

That's what makes these threads of your's such a tremendous waste of time. That and the fact you are only willing to accept the answer you want to hear and so far no one has provided that answer.

You're insulting if someone buys some thing and you're insulting if someone doesn't buy something.

You have no solution - only a rant that you pull out every month.

I hear the roof calling you, Alan. Take your sack full of bottles with you this time.

KBK
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:

Quote:
Are you directly involved professionally on a daily basis with audio system design and manufacture ?


Quote:
YES.

Actually, you could be a bit more forthcoming by disclosing to all here that you, IIRC, manufacture $1,000.00 and up per meter cables as well as $500.00 per gallon paint for video screens.

RG

Then we run into the problem of some perceiving Ken as promoting himself and his products. I'm purposely not going there and purposely not hiding anything, either. I've said I'm in the business on the manufacturing end of things, and that should be good enough.

I do my best at being fair, honest and at the same time not promoting or denigrating anyone's product. Read my posts carefully. Each time I make a misstep, and that does not happen often, I apologize and attempt to correct it. I try to share as much as I can and have actually given away upwards of 10 patents of value on the AVS, and DIYAudio forums.

It is a tough line to walk, for anyone. Which is part of why you don't see much in the way of manufacturers on these forums.

Buddha
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

KBK, you do not (ever, really) come across as a marketing shill for your product.

Perhaps too kind to other maufacturuers, though...

Cheers.

Welshsox
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off

OK

There is a very obvious pattern here, on one side of the argument you have JV, JA & KBK. All 3 have a vested interest in these rip off prices that are currently being charged, they are all either in or have been in the industry selling these items, it is noteworthy that none of then have been buying them however.

They keep on ranting about how im full of shit and dont understand the complexities of putting a $50 PCB in a fancy box and charging $10,000 for it as a pre amp. They are right, i do not have any idea how companies justify the extreme prices.

Just to balance things out here, i am not talking about well made good quality rpoduct. I have no issue with $4,000 for an Esoteric CD player, $3,000 for a VPI TT, $5,000 for a pair of floor standing speakerrs, i understand these are luxury items and that you have to spend to get quality.

What the 3 hifi stooges are trying to do is divert the issue away from the rip off prices by making my arguments seem emotional, nothing could be further from the truth, im just applying simple facts to these products.

JV in is usual way likes to trash me, KBK thinks im a fucking idiot, JA thinks i have no idea. the bottom line is that i design the largest industrial audio systems in the world for a living, these are state of the art systems utilising embedded cobranet audio synchronized to 5ms latency with thousands of I/O points. The 3 stooges dismiss me because i dont design rip off high end hifi, what i design is far more sophisticated at every level. This gives me the technical background to state that a $30,000 power amplifier is a scam, im sorry that this pisses off the people with a vested interest but it does not change the facts, JV and KBK should take their heads out and smell the roses, people are getting smarter and will not put up with these scams. For the price of one LARS amplifier I can design a full safety system for an offshore oil production platform that meets every regulatory standard in the world, please tell me how a couple of valves with a $200 ( Lundahl price ) output transfomer in a fancy box is worth more than that ? there is years of knowledge and testing gone into the oil rig system.

No amount of trash talk and bullying from the 3 stooges will change the factual perspective im putting forwards.

If JV wants to save up his pennies and buy a $100,000 amplifier from LARS then he can talk until that point he should just shut up on the subject because he just sounds like a used car salesman.

Alan

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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:
...JV and KBK should take their heads out and smell the roses, people are getting smarter and will not put up with these scams.

Seems you've left out the third stooge .

In all seriousness though, this thread reminds me of some of the commentary posted about Stereophile's 2009 CES coverage. There is one comment by "Bobvin" here in response to the $60k cable scam. Here is the quote:

Quote:
"If you have the $$, like what you hear, and believe there is enough value then by purchase the wires and enjoy life. If you feel the 60K wire is what you want but can't afford it, then find a way to AFFORD it (not go in debt for gods sake) by improving yourself to provide more value to your fellow man in a way you will earn more $$."

So I guess Bernard Madoff provided more value to his fellow man than, say, Gandhi. After all, he earned more $$, right?

The situation with cables is by far the worst though. The $7.5k "danceable cables" cost $500 more than a pair of John Curl's JC-1 monoblocks. That's freakin' crazy.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Musical Fidelity Rip Off


Quote:
JV in is usual way likes to trash me ...


Quote:
If JV wants to save up his pennies and buy a $100,000 amplifier from LARS then he can talk until that point he should just shut up on the subject because he just sounds like a used car salesman.

That and everything in between pretty much sums up what you have to offer on this topic. I don't think anyone would care if you were designing and building the greatest audio gear in the world. You have nothing of value to say.

And, yep, I agree with KBK - you are a fucking idiot.

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