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ILikeMusic
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hoho

He seems to be reinforcing my point.

Anton
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No, seriously, that's how it should work.

You think it's only an aural phenomenon?

The "electret" creme should also make you able to sleep better.

Right?

Think about May's claim, Chris.

Why is she wasting her time on our small backwater hobby of audiophilia?

Never asked yourself that?

Don't knock balut - unless you've tried, you can't comment with any validity.

 

ChrisS
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food

Anton, do you have an eating disorder?

ChrisS
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Point?

And what was the point?

geoffkait
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"I'm not demanding anything"

Ilikemusic wrote,

"No one including myself is demanding anything."

Huh?!  Of course you are.  You are demanding that someone, anyone perform controlled blind tests using multiple participants, presumably to convince  the skeptics out there, at least according to you.  Who will never be convinced these things work.  I suggest you, like Randi, stick to paranormal activity.

Ilikemusic wrote,

"Your claim that the number of skeptics is few is highly questionable."

Really?  Prove it.  

Ilikemusic wrote,

"Understand that the skeptic membership includes every single audio equipment manufacturer and recording label in the world since not a single one of them incorporates these tweaks into their products at assembly."

Shame on them.  One assumes they have their heads in the sand like you.

ilikemusic wrote,

"Would May like for one of her ridiculous Quantum Foil strips to be affixed to every cd and lp manufactured? for her ludicrous cream to be applied to every piece of audio equipment manufactured?"

If it made the sound better, it would be a shame not to.  Most likely manufacturers and record execs are not interested in making the sound better.  Again, like you.  Note: You really got it bad, doncha?  Lol

Geoff Kait

Machina Dynamica

ChrisS
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More food

Anton, I hear mayonnaise makes a wonderful hair conditioner!

Anton
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You will believe anything, I guess. It goes beyond audio tweaks!
ChrisS wrote:

Anton, I hear mayonnaise makes a wonderful hair conditioner!

I suppose you tried it, then, since someone told you it was a good idea.

No way you could decide in advance.

Tell me how that Sicilian cheese was, since you can't know about something unless you try it!

kiss

May Belt
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Reply to ILikeMusic

 

Quote:

>>> “Understand that the skeptic membership includes every single audio equipment manufacturer and recording label in the world since not a single one of them incorporates these tweaks into their products at assembly.” <<<

 

Oh, just how wrong can you be !!!!!   I only wish the techniques used would GLOW !!!!

 

THEN we would all be able to see just what might be glowing in YOUR room !!!

 

You haven’t a clue what might be going on, ILikeMusic, under your very nose !!!!

 

And yet you state, categorically, with such a sweeping statement, that “every single manufacturer” – “not a single one of them incorporates these tweaks into their products at assembly” when it is SO obvious that you CANNOT possibly know !!!!!

 

But I DO know !!!!   But, it is completely up to the manufacturer whether they wish to disclose such or not.

 

Regards,

May Belt.

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multi-use

Thought you would be interested, since you seem to be on a track about multi-use products.

 

http://www.ehow.com/how_4464405_use-mayonnaise-hair-conditioner.html

 

Isn't Northern California a different planet?

geoffkait
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Controlled tests - controlled, indeed!

Ilikemusic wrote,

""Ilikemusic, shouldn't you be going after dowsers and spoonbenders and other paranormal activity?"

I routinely do just that.  It is my duty."

I believe it.  A man on a mission. 

 

Ilikemusic wrote,

""No magazine in this hobby performs carefully controlled blind tests of the type you propose.  Don't you know that?"

And your point would be? And this admission after writing

"As I already said, many tests have been done over the years, including blind tests."

showing that you twice claimed otherwise."

The PWB reviews i linked to included some blind tests.  Not up to Randi's "standards", nevertheless.

 

 Ilikemusic wrote,

""Even if they did, it would be just plain silly since everyone knows that negative results of such tests are meaningless.  Don't you know that?"

This is nonsense."

I did not see that coming.  Isn't it obvious that any test can result in negative results for any of a number of reasons, including failure to follow instructions, test subject's hearing not up to par, inexperience with listening tests and one or more problems with the test system.  

 

Ilikemusic wrote,

""The Amazing Randi, the famous witchhunter, has made a career of devising carefully controlled blind tests with many trials that are so carefully controlled that no one can possibly pass them."

This is the most revealing statement that you have made on this forum."

Really?  How so? I'm dying to know.

 

ilikemusic wrote,

"Yes, Geoff, science is a rigorous process.

I wonder if Randi could devise an experiment in which gravity would fail?"

I dunno, Randi spends all his time going after spoonbenders and dowsers.  All in the name of science.  Lol

 

Ilikemusic wrote,

""Isn't that really the type of test you have in mind?"

I have in mind, at a minimum, a double blind A/B experiment where A=no cream, B=cream over 1-2 dozen trials for each of 4-5 dozen participants, the experiment repeated by 2-3 independent individuals/organizations and in which the results and test procedures are published in respected scientific forums and are available for peer review. And yes, I highly doubt that the participants as a whole will do better than random guessing.  Sounds like you do too.  I also realize that this will likely never happen.  So be it."

Gee, that sounds just like the sort of test The Amazing Randi would propose - I.e., one that no human being has a snowball's chance in hell of passing.  But not because the device under test doesn't work, but because the test is inherently rigged.  That's precisely why The Amazing Randi has never had to cough up $1 Million.  And That's why Randi went after, uh, certain audio products, taking a break from the usual paranormal grind.  He didn't have to know anything about audio. He had the test wired.

As I expected, you don't even wait for the test to draw your conclusions.  Not very scientific of you, old bean.  Why do I have the nagging feeling that the "respected scientific forums" you have in mind are just as closed minded and dismissive as you?  

 

Ilikemusic wrote,

"The amount of money, knowledge and fame involved in a 'positive' outcome of such a series of tests is quite staggering. It is meaningful that nobody cares to investigate it seriously."

well, in fairness, the respected scientific forums you have in mind are most likely as dismissive and closed minded as you are.  Besides, talk's cheap - you yourself don't care to investigate it seriously, preferring instead to pontificate from the comfort of your easy chair.  Ah, the easy life of the pseudo skeptic.

 

Geoff Kait

www.machinadynamica.com

Anton
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Different planet, keep out.
ChrisS wrote:

Thought you would be interested, since you seem to be on a track about multi-use products.

 

http://www.ehow.com/how_4464405_use-mayonnaise-hair-conditioner.html

 

Isn't Northern California a different planet?

 

Yes.

You'd hate it.

Have fun with the mayo hair tweak. It must work for you!

ChrisS
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food issues

Anton, are you bulimic?

ChrisS
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Northern California

Did NASA ever send an explorer out there? How about William Shatner?

ILikeMusic
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Geoff

You are an illiterate fool.

ILikeMusic
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use of pwb products and other insanities

 

The Quantum Foil would be visible if it were affixed to a cd by the manufacturer.

 

"You haven’t a clue what might be going on, ILikeMusic, under your very nose !!!!"

I do to. I read my horoscope today and I dealt the Tarot cards and consulted my personal psychic. And I read your web site to learn about the 'friendly' energy patterns.

It amazes me that this is actually the 21 century.

 

ChrisS
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Point? What Point?
geoffkait
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I did not see that coming

Ilikemusic, wrote,

"Geoff

You are an illiterate fool."

I know you are but what am I? 

Run out of ammo, eh?

 

Geoff kait

machina Dynamica

May Belt
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Reply to ILikeMusic

 

Quote:

>>> “The Quantum Foil would be visible if it were affixed to a cd by the manufacturer.” <<<

 

Did you say that truism sentence because you thought it would be a killer line ?

 

Of course something like a strip of Foil would be visible, it is SOOOOO obvious it does not even need saying in a discussion between (or merely read by) intelligent people.

 

Let us now look at something INVISIBLE !!   Something which has been around in the world of audio for possibly 30 years.  The  Cryogenic Freezing technique.

 

I repeat my earlier sentence, ILikeMusic, :-

Quote:

>>> “You haven’t a clue what might be going on, ILikeMusic, under your very nose !!!!” <<<

 

Would you know, just from looking at different equipment, how many manufacturers of audio equipment cryogenically freeze the components and general bits and pieces before assembly ?

 

That technique is invisible !!   ONE of the techniques which is invisible !!

 

Another alternative technique would be if Nordost decided to produce their own LPs and CDs.   Would YOU know whether they had applied their ECO 3 liquid to the labels of the LPs and to the label side of the CDs ?   Or, would you know if they apply their ECO 3 liquid to the outer insulation of any of their cables ?

 

Yet another example would be if a producer of LPs and CDs and cables applied a demagnetiser to their LPs, CDs and cables before releasing them to the general public.

 

Just HOW visible do you think any of those techniques would be.

 

Nothing to do with “being able to SEE a strip of Foil” !!!

Regards,

May Belt.

 

 

 

 

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Falls off...

If someone falls off the edge of the Earth and no one sees or hears it, did it really happen?

Anton
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Toast, I'd say.
ChrisS wrote:

If someone falls off the edge of the Earth and no one sees or hears it, did it really happen?

Like this thread?

laugh

Bottom line, mission accomplished, Art.

More replies to this thread than all other monthly issue thread replies for the year to date....combined.

I do mourn the future loss of column inches that will be wasted by Art writing about the dire social consequences of his writing about vapor-tweaks.

 

ChrisS
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?

Did someone say something?

geoffkait
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Did someone say something?

It must have been the wind.

 

Geoff Kait

Machina Dynamica

Anton
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Geoff, you forgot to log out after posting as ChrisS

Sock puppet much?

 

 

ChrisS
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Whoosh!

There's that wind again...

geoffkait
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I heard it again, too

It's kind of like a hot wind.

 

Geoff Kait

machina erotica

ILikeMusic
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Reply to May Belt regarding Quantum Foil

Now May, please stay on topic! It is no wonder so many posts are required for this thread.

May wrote

"Of course something like a strip of Foil would be visible, it is SOOOOO obvious ... "

So we can assume that no cd's are manufactured with Quantum Foil affixed. Seems strange - something so cheap which could improve the sound so dramatically and yet it is not used.  I guess I am not the only skeptic of the Quantum Foil in the audio world.

And no reasonable person is buying your claim that the Belt products are licensed for use by audio equipment manufacturers or recording labels.  You will need a bit more proof than "ILikeMusic can't disprove all of my claims therefore it is true."

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flummery!
geoffkait wrote:

Jimv wrote,

"IMHO, any tweak or device that consists of a tiny number of parts in a box sold at a price many, many times above its cost and which produces a result that only some can hear...well, that is audio flummery."

Oh,, you mean like an amplifier?  That reminds me, we really should consider resurrectIng the thread on how small a device can be and still be effective.  I'm sure you'd get a big kick out if that one.  :-)

 

How much do tweaks cost?  Since you brought it up let's see, what do these things you're so worried about cost?

 

Pwb Rainbow Foil      About 30.00 for pack of 250 foils.

pwb Cream Electret.  About 30.00 for enough to last a year

intellgent chip, original.   16.00

Cryogenically treated CDs, LPs, cables, etc.   about 10.00 per lb.

High end fuses.   Prices start around 20.00

Photos in the Freezer Tweak.     free

Shun Mook Mpingo disc.    75.00, 30.00 on used market

 

Geoff Kait

machismo erotica

 

Hardly the stuff I speak of...if folk want to spend relatively small amounts of money for odd devices and bizarre creams, go for it. When they get $50 worth of parts in a sheet metal box for 4 significant figures, or a brass dinner gong for the same 4 figures, then yes, they have been swizzled. No one likes admitting they have fallen victim to quackery but many are.

My purpose in starting the thread was to note the very high statistical relationship between very high prices with very little actual manufacturing and the claimed effect. They almost always polish the device with claims that are simply untrue for 99% of the folk who might buy it. Too often the emperor is in fact naked.  I also decided to remind folk that, IMHO, a major purpose for a magazine that reviews stuff is to steer the reader clear of such junk.

Although some believe it is possible to polish a horse apple to a high shine, all one has, at the end of the process, is a shiny horse apple and a very dirty pair of hands.

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exactly
ChrisS wrote:

"If the explanation of the effect reads like a tome on alchemy or is 99% psychology driven...again, audio flummery."

 

You can say the same thing of Kellog's Corn Flakes or any marketing hype aimed at kids.

 

Exactly! The difference is, audio manufacturers design for adults. It is the stuff NOT marketed to adults but to children of all ages that are at issue. A ten year old would know better than to pay thousands for a device he knows only cost a few bucks.

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Does a skeptic need to get burned...
ChrisS wrote:

Wow, 174 (+1) posts on this thread!! I guess I find it perversely entertaining to see people arguing about products that they've never tried and have no intention of ever trying and yet have so much to say without any first hand experience!

Is that what Law is about?

 

Must one be burned on the stove of quackery to know quackery...I am reminded of a great Cheech and Chong skit...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eY7ZX6ngOSs

One does not have to taste doggie doo to know it is best avoided.

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What's that smell?

JIMV,

What a great skit! Reminds me of those late, late nights listening to great programs of ground-breaking talent that used to be found on FM radio many years ago!

Now, unlike Cheech and Chong, none of the skeptics here have tasted, smelled, or even stepped in the dog shit to "know" that the Belt products are dog shit.... Yet, you've already made your pronouncements! All you've done is to register your opinions and your prejudices.

In "Law", one employs someone else's experiences in a parallel situation to make a judgement. In this case, the skeptics have already pre-judged Art Dudley's experiences with the products in question to be null and void.

JIMV, do you drive a Ford or a Chev? From my own past experiences with Ford vehicles, I thought I'd never drive a Ford again. But recent reviews of new products have me interested again. So does my experience with a Ford station wagon 20 years ago tell me that all of today's Ford products are dog shit? Of course not! At least not until I've smelled, tasted, and stepped in one...

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Art is not the issue...the very costly very iffy tweaks are

And the car is an old Jeep...

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Dollars and sense...

Really? I don't know of too many 10 year olds or even adults who realize that a $6 box of cereal costs pennies to manufacture. And if they did know, does that stop them from making a purchase? Does your average 10 year old realize that their favorite brand name clothing apparel or sport shoe may be made in some sweat shop manned by laborers of the same age?

Do you know of anyone who was forced to buy a Ferrari? Even when they found out that the Ferrari had 4 wheels and had some of the same nuts and bolts as some cheaper brands?...

ChrisS
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Value

Jeeps, especially old Jeeps, are great!

ChrisS
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Bring out your dead...

Quote:

"I also decided to remind folk that, IMHO, a major purpose for a magazine that reviews stuff is to steer the reader clear of ..... junk."

They are, you just don't agree.

ChrisS
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Bring out your dead 2....

Quote:

"...note the very high statistical relationship between very high prices with very little actual manufacturing and the claimed effect..."

Sounds like pharmaceutical medications, which should be of more concern.

ChrisS
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Flummery and more flummery...

JIMV,

Do you own an Apple product of any kind? Have you read Steve Jobs bio? Steve Jobs knew the power of flummery and raised it to a science and a high art.

What's Apple worth? What do you think PWB Products are worth?

Didn't a whole lot of people get suckered into investing a whole lot of money into iffy financial "products" just a few years ago?

I rather doubt anyone would even lose a shirt button investing in a gong or a PWB product.

You have an interesting sense of scale....

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Dollars and sense 2

Quote;

"A ten year old would know better than to pay thousands for a device he knows only cost a few bucks."

When my son was 10 years old, do you think he was outraged at the price of Lego? Do you think he was outraged when he found out he really didn't get the Millenium Falcon, only the Lego-version, for Christmas?

We were outraged at the price, but he got it anyways....

ILikeMusic
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About that smell

 

"Now, unlike Cheech and Chong, none of the skeptics here have tasted, smelled, or even stepped in the dog shit to "know" that the Belt products are dog shit.... Yet, you've already made your pronouncements! All you've done is to register your opinions and your prejudices."

Refine your analogy.   What would the audio analog of taste, smell, and stepping be? Why does examining the claimed functional mechanism of the product not qualify as smelling, for example?

May Belt
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Reply to ILikeMusic
Quote:

>>> “Now May, please stay on topic! It is no wonder so many posts are required for this thread.” <<<

 

One of the reasons why so many posts (replies) ARE required is that such as you keep making categorical (such definite statements) which are just knee jerk reactions but you state them as though they are well researched and knowledgeable.   As in :-

 

Quote:

>>> “that “every single manufacturer” – “not a single one of them incorporates these tweaks into their products at assembly”<<<

 

You state EVERY SINGLE MANUFACTURER ------- and------ NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM-------and then you are surprised that you get a response challenging you!!

 

I repeat, ILikeMusic, you just don’t ‘have a clue’ what is going on under your very nose !!

 

Quote:

>>> “So we can assume that no cd's are manufactured with Quantum Foil affixed. Seems strange - something so cheap which could improve the sound so dramatically and yet it is not used.  I guess I am not the only skeptic of the Quantum Foil in the audio world.” <<<

 

Why are you fixated on the Foils ?   Why would a manufacturer use something like a visible Foil, which would require someone to physically place a strip on each disc when there are INVISIBLE treatments ?

 

You obviously want people to believe (as you obviously do) that if it (something) doesn’t have a piece of Foil showing, therefore it hasn’t been treated !!

 

Quote:

>>> “And no reasonable person is buying your claim that the Belt products are licensed for use by audio equipment manufacturers or recording labels” <<<

 

Yet another sweeping statement of yours which has NO basis in fact !!    Where on earth have I ever claimed that our products have to be licensed for use by audio equipment manufacturers ???    And yet you make categorical statements like the one above obviously hoping that people will believe that you are so knowledgeable about Belt products and techniques and, even, knowledgeable about Belt business practices.   

 

Regards,

May Belt.

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Validity vs testing again

ILikeMusic,

Please tell us how you would test a PWB product.

Thanks.

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Magic diner gongs! Please
ChrisS wrote:

Quote:

"I also decided to remind folk that, IMHO, a major purpose for a magazine that reviews stuff is to steer the reader clear of ..... junk."

They are, you just don't agree.

 

If they desire to review wacky stuff, at least note its wacky cost and iffy performance...

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wrong venue
ChrisS wrote:

Quote:

"...note the very high statistical relationship between very high prices with very little actual manufacturing and the claimed effect..."

Sounds like pharmaceutical medications, which should be of more concern.

 

If the magazine was "Meds are us" I would be concerned.

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?

Sam noted exactly the product, its cost, and its performance. All reviewers who write for this magazine do exactly the same.

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Manufacturers and PWB

At CES it was de rigor for me to use PWB products in the rooms in which I participated several years running, as early as 2001 (!) ...why not if it improves the sound, right? That was in addition to my own products.  Among other PWB products, cream electret, foils, green cream, Red X Coordinate Pen, photos in the freezer, Spiratube, and the Quantum Clip. I have participated in some of the biggest and best sounding systems ever assembled at CES.  One might wonder, how much did the PWB products contribute to the sound?  :-). One also wonders why manufacturers do not use every weapon available to produce the best sound at a show?  It seems to be one of the bizarre facts of high end audio that a great many manufacturers are either afraid to use tweaks at the Show, are ignorant of tweaks, or don't care about the sound. I was fortunate to be with manufacturers at CES who were adamant about sound quality - John Curl, Bob Crump, Pierre Sprey, Allen Chang, Jonathan Tinn and others.

 

Geoff Kait

Machina Dynamica

May Belt
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Reply to Geoff

 

Quote:

>>> “At CES it was de rigor for me to use PWB products in the room several years running, as early as 2001, if truth be told” <<<

 

That was interesting to know, Geoff.    Many have done that also in the UK.

 

The first Hi Fi Show we treated was in 1987 – 14 years before your own experiences !!   To quote Keith Howard, the then editor of the British Hi FI Magazine Hi Fi Answers, when he reported both his and his colleagues experiences.

 

Quote:

>>> “From Hi Fi Answers November 1987 issue.

Next door to us were New Hi FI Sound, who were planning CD versus DAT demonstrations.   They came armed with numerous amps and speakers, and had begun the depressing task of trying to find a combination that would work acceptably.   By the time they came into our room to witness Peter Belt at work, they were almost suicidal.   When they’d witnessed what he achieved for us, though, they asked politely if he would do the same next door.   He agreed, and two hours later they were all smiles.

I can fairly say, I think, that together we made some of the best sounds at the show.” <<<

 

Much of the treatment INVISIBLE to others !!!!!!!

 

Regards,

May Belt.

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Smell

ChrisS wrote

"Please tell us how you would test a PWB product."

Reply to #238 first.

ILikeMusic
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PWB review

Stereophile should have stopped covering the Belts after this article was published.

http://www.stereophile.com/news/10415/

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?
popluhv wrote:

I enjoy reading about quakery sometimes and I find it interesting on a certain level. I found it odd that Peter wasn't part of Art's interview. I would have liked a more probing interview, as it is he seems rather passive. I find it rather troubling that he found that the cream worked however. It makes me doubt his ability to real differences, and that's where the real trouble is. 

As for $10K carts, that's the kinda stuff I actually read Stereophile for. I find it exciting to hear about the new frontiers in audio. I find it annoying when people complain about the super expensive stuff, it just comes across as jealousy. As for the stuff I can actually afford myself, I talk to my local dealer and usually try it out. I trust him and my own ears far more than any reviewer anyhow.

Reply to what? Why?

ILikeMusic
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A review of PWB product mechanisms
ChrisS
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Last seen: 13 hours 42 min ago
Joined: Mar 6 2006 - 8:42pm
Nothing was reviewed

Not a review, just a Q &A between two people....

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