audioclash
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MM/MC phone preamp help
Jan Vigne
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Quote:
Sumiko Blue Point Special Evo III is a high output moving coil phono cartridge ... http://www.needledoctor.com/Sumiko-Blue-Point-Special-Evo-III?category=134
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High output MC's operate into a moving magnet phono input. There is no need and you would only be disappointed with a MC phono step up device or dedicated phono pre amp. If you wish to buy an outboard phono pre amp, look for a good MM variety and if you choose one that has a MC option, that's fine, but for the Sumiko all you require is a MM phono section. There is no requirememnt for gain switching and it only puts more switches and circuitry in the signal path in this situation, use your volume control for variable gain. A "fiter"? What sort of "filter" did you have in mind? There should be none needed with the Blue Point.

Don't know why this is underlined but it doesn't seem to want to go away.

dbowker
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Take a look at the Grado PH-1. I'm very happy with it and although it's a SS, it's not at all on the hard side sonically. Great bass too. It's about $500 so not exactly inexpensive, but then again, not somehting you'll be thinking you need to upgrade for a long time. Grado PH-1 Review

dcstep
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Sumiko's Blackbird HOMC is an excellent cartridge. I just replaced mine with a $2,000 moving iron cartridge, which only marginally beats the BB. The tracking of the BB is actually superior to my new MI cartridge. The output is high enough that it works very well with a MM input.

My BB has a few hundred hours on it in a Pro-ject RM10. I'd part with it for $300. I hadn't planned on selling it, but it's just sitting around right now.

Dave

audioclash
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thanks dave, but as you know having dealt with a project tt, they give you a big price break if you buy at the same time. I know it is a big jump from the blue, have you ever heard it to compare?

audioclash
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thanks guys, sounds like you all like the sumiko cartridges (which of course makes me happy), I guess I wanted to try a pre because I have never owned a separate preamp dedicated to a phono stage.

V- I do hear what your saying about fewer interconnects. I too am a believer in 'less is more' with hi-fidelity. I don't bi-amp, other than a simple DAC I like to keep all of my cables as short as possible and my system concise. I've seen some pictures on this site of people's systems that blow my mind (in terms of processing and re-processing). I just want it to sound rad....you know.

dbow- thanks, i will check out the grado (I have heard good things). It's not really too expensive, both of the pro ject tube pres are 400-650. I just didn't want to go too far above 500.

But now guess I have another dilemma...to pre or not to pre?
any other thoughts?

Thanks guys,
Happy listening, (I have to review new Roots, and Walkmen records now)

Matt

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Yes indeed, I have heard the BP Special, but not the Evo III and not in the same system. I CAN say that when I heard the Blackbird on the RM10 it was well beyond anything I'd heard in that price range at the time ($2880 for RM10/BB combination in 2007) but it's so hard to say how much is TT and how much is cartridge. I've since more than doubled my investment by adding an HRS M3 isolation base, the Pro-ject Speedbox SE and the aforementioned moving iron cartridge by Soundsmith. Each improvement was significant.

IF you're getting satisfying performance with your BPS, then you should probably stay with it. Without buying used, it'll be hard to beat it at the price point.

The Pro-ject Tubebox SE is a fine phono preamp for the money, particularly used (look around www.audiogon.com )I sold mine when I upgraded to Rowland, but it was very satisfying in its own right.

Dave

audioclash
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I guess another reason I wanted a pre for this new turntable is that my records just haven't been sounding that good recently. I switched receivers a few months ago from a techniques dinosaur to a new Arcam. And I have not been happy with the Arcam's mm phone pre. My records now sound thinner. I think the old receiver was build with vinyl in mind (due to the fact that that was the main format of the time). On that preamp, (same tt and cartridge mind you), my records sounded much better...fuller, more bass, richer, fatter...I guess I just miss that. Maybe the new tt will alleviate that, but I fear it is the Arcam and a separate phone pre I figured would alleviate that.

Thanks, matt

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Quote:
But now guess I have another dilemma...to pre or not to pre?
any other thoughts?

You've spent enough with your Pro-ject dealer, so why won't he let you take a Tubebox home??? Comparing to your onboard phono-pre will give you a crystal clear answer.

Separate phono pres are NOT always superior.

Dave

audioclash
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good point

judicata
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For what it is worth, I thought my TT sounded thin, and, upon the recommendation of the people in this forum, I got an external phono stage (a tube bellari), and the difference was very dramatic.

tom collins
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i am running a clearaudio aurum beta s (MM) with an arcam A80, very similar to your setup. previously i was using a benz high output (2.0mv) moving coil, both into the standard input on the amp. only speaking for myself, i did not notice "thinness" with either cartridge. however, sub-par record will still sound subpar and compressed or flat, like radio. i borrowed a rega phono pre from my dealer and did not notice any improvement, having borrowed it for the benz because the 2.0 mv output didn't give me the volume i wanted. the 3.6 mv of the clearaudio gives all you could want. anyway, i was also listening for any difference in sound, color, soundstage, quiteness and could not detect anything. if you don't have a dealer to lend you these things, you can probably try a few from audiogon and just resell the ones you don't like for about what you paid. let us know if you find one you like, i would be personally interested and might like to try it myself.

audioclash
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thanks everybody for all of your advice. i have decided to run a sumiko blackbird directly into my arcam and give it a shot before i do any preamping. i will keep you all updated on the results (when i get the new tt and cart from berkeley, ca)

piinob
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AC, I have a 9.1 with a Blackbird playing through the MM input on a McIntosh C-37. It works wonderfully. I have not heard the Bluepoint, but the Blackbird is a real winner for me. Sounds like you have a good plan.

tom collins
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the blackbird was on my short list as well.
it will need break-in time to sound its best. at first, it may sound similar to what you already don't like about your system, thin and compressed. dont' judge until you have at least 20 hours.
let us know how you like it, but give it a little time to break in.

audioclash
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absolutely. Also, I am changing a lot of my cables at the same time. I will be using the audioquest diamondbacks (PSC) for my interconnects between phone and preamp, and audioquest type-4 (LGC) for speaker cables. So I assume both of the them will need some run in time as well. The money keeps pouring out. Good thing my stocks are doing so good....lol!

I'm hoping that the cable change will be a huge improve...im really using crap right now...Now I just need to start learning how to build amps...I've been modifying a old technic's from the eights to work only as a mm phono pre (just for shits and giggles)...I just remember it always sounding nice and warm and bassy...I figure if I get rid of some of the other garbage in there (FM tuner ect.) it may even clean it up more. And I want to build a record cleaner now that I will have such a nice tt.

Any tips on record/cartridge maintenance? And is it really worth it to have a pro set up the tt and balance it? I 'd love to just learn to do it myself.

So how did you find the setup of your 9.1 (easy/diff.)?

linden518
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Investing in a record cleaner is pretty essential, I think, especially if most of the vinyl you purchase are used (which is more likely than not.) You don't need anything more than VPI 16.5, which you can pick up used for $300-350... if you read MF's review of the $3000+ Clearaudio RCM in this month's issue, he basically says the same thing, that all you need is a 16.5. If you really want to get the cleaning done right, you have to do the process manually anyway. Get yourself a decent cleaning fluid from MoFi or Audio Intelligent, get some MoFi brushes, and you'd be amazed how much better your collection will sound after a thorough cleaning. Since it seems like you're an inveterate tweaker you may want to concoct for yourself DIY fluid... I think forum member Jan Vigne has a good recipe, as well as Buddha, if I'm not mistaken. As for me, I'm a bit lazy as well as anal, so I just bought the 3-step solution from Audio Intelligent. It's fantastic. If you're not ready to go RCM, at least get a couple of quality brushes, like the Audioquest or Hunt.

For cartridge cleaning, I just use Onzow Zerodust. Easy, and no fluid to worry about to travel up the stylus, whether that's true or not. I've read in audiogon that Mr. Clean pad or something also works miracles. Audiophiles are crazy.

audioclash
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crazy is an understatement!

as far as a record cleaner, I think I will just try and build one using a old turntable and a tiny tank-vac that has a modified suction devise made from pvc that hovers over the record, which I believe will accomplish exactly what the cleaner you suggested will but for less that $350+. I would love to just buy one, but times is tough thanks to all of my new crazy purchases.

I sincerely hope my hifi dealer does not see my face until I make a lot more money and finally get those $10,000 Sonus Faber m series ive been dreaming of, and of course a brand new set of monoblocks to amp them with...hehehe

thanks guys,
will be in touch,

matt

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Quote:
as far as a record cleaner, I think I will just try and build one using a old turntable and a tiny tank-vac that has a modified suction devise made from pvc that hovers over the record, which I believe will accomplish exactly what the cleaner you suggested will but for less that $350+.


Even better. Check out forum member dbowker's homemade RCM in the photos, pretty impressive.

See you around, Matt.

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