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geoffkait
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Houston, we have a problem
toledo wrote:
geoffkait wrote:
toledo wrote:
Quote:

What do I mean when I use the term purity of sound? Well, have you even been sitting there, in the comfort of your BarcoLounger, and thought to yourself, "Geez, for a medium that has always been touted to have a very high SNR (circa 90 dB) it frequently sounds obscured by noise and distortion. Why does this sound thin, wiry, threadbare, irritating, rolled off, bass shy, boring, like paper mâché, two dimensional, weird, disembodied and compressed?"

So you now posit a strawman argument that the CD medium is the cause of all evil. So are we to assume all your component tweaks are of little use?

The first step to fixing the problem is realizing you have a problem in the first place.

Cute little anecdotes when your argument hits the wall. A lazy man's debate approach or no answer?

The never ending excuses for high end components failings. I was there once so can relate.

The failings are not the medium but an overbuilt, high mass blocked signal path which no amount of tweaking will fix.

How about a little less BS and a little more experimenting with basic signal blockage and put the quantum stuff aside for a bit. Like I said, what do you have to lose.

Well, there's some blockage allright. Lol. Here are some reasons why CDs sound so bad tomthentrained ear. I don't expect everyone can hear how bad they sound because they are either used to the sound or they are oblivious to the sound.

1. Most CDs are out of round. For that reason they flop around inside the transport during play, relatively speaking, making the laser reading of the data and the servo mechanism work overtime.

2. The chemical, Mold Release Compound most likely, that is absorbed in the polycarbonate during manufacture must be removed. This chemical interferes with the laser reading the data. The issue is the transparency of the polycarbonate layer which is not perfectly transparent.

3. The transport must be absolutely level, otherwise the spinning CD tends to flop around in there, making the laser reading much more difficult. Next topic suggestion: why Reed Solomon Error Correction doesn't correct all errors. Perhaps the PhD in information theory can help out with that one.

4. As I've already pointed out, there are many sources of vibration that interfere directly with the audio signal in the wires inside the CD player. The primary culprits are seismic vibration, the CD transport motor noise and the transformer, but I'll throw in airborne vibration (acoustic waves) just to make everyone happy.

5. Scattered laser light that fills up the inside of the CD transport compartment interferes with the laser reading of the data by entering the photodector as noise. One assumes the designers of the Compact Disc were trying to slip one past the goalie. The photodetector is rather stupid, you see, and accepts any signal greater than 70% of full reflected signal. For this reason coloring various areas of the CD produces much better SNR. The CD can be colored not only around the outer edge and inner edge but also in the innocuous blank band on the shiny data side. These colors, for example the color cyan, deal with the visible portion of the laser spectrum, which is red. In some cases, I must confide, we're not sure why a color, e.g., orange, is effective. This is all fine and dandy, but we have a big problem. CD laser is actually (centered) in the near infrared portion of the spectrum at 780 nm, so what about the near infrared portion of the spectrum, you know, the invisible light?! The scattered light above 700 nm? See next paragraph.

6. The invisible portion of the scattered background laser light also interferes with the laser reading of the data. But this is not so easy to deal with because there are no (visible) colors that can be used to absorb the near infrared light. So, we must resort to more, uh, stringent means. Evil laughter.

For these reasons, as well as many others, I hereby declare you variable tuning guys are most likely living in what they call a false bliss state. ;-)

Did someone say, "Perfect Sound Forever"?

Tootles,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
We do Artificial Atoms Right

toledo
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Have you ever experimented

Have you ever experimented with lossless digital playback from a well designed USB dac like Gordon Rankins or other dedicated music servers.
This would eliminate some of these physical medium issues you document instead of putting band aids on them.
I cannot speak from experience on this, but if these are issues you wish to address this is a possible solution.
We have variable tuners that use somewhat tuneable music servers.

Would like to hear your findings.

I suspect the signal blockage will still be present in up stream components and possibly the USB dac, though and no tweaks will fix it.

Yes we variable tuners do blissfully listen to our entire collection of music.

P.s. Are we back to vague innuendos regarding peoples hearing? I am sure the readers and your customers or potential customers appreciate the somewhat elitist tone of your writings.

iosiP
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Geoff, would you please post your latest audiogram?

Unless, of course, you are directly streaming music to your brain (using the phone, and without turning on your audio gear).

michael green
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need the HBO crew, who's really listening

Many wonder why the audiophile world is at a stand still. Sadly we who are reading these threads are seeing why in almost real time.

How many times I have stood at the edge of a showroom with the "know it's" spewing all over the people waiting to enter. Finally we do enter and hear just how bad these systems are (according to show reports), more spewing begins when we ask why. We come on forums to share and even more spewing. No listening mind you, but plenty of spewing. "here's" why this is" they say, still no listening. I walk into to one of my systems and listen to a distortion free paradise producing beautiful, huge graphic soundstages and I'm ready to share my experience, come to the threads, and more spewing.

A hobby that has created so many systems, and so many "experts". Experts that as you start to peel back the layers you begin to see that there is little listening going on at all. Tons of talk but very little listening.

Geoff I invite you to come listen with us. Come experience this side of the hobby and business. Please share with us not how it works but give us a listening tour of your world. We on this forum are starting to get closer as of late, and I believe are on the edge of listening together. Would you join us on this adventure? I think that even though people have different ideas when we start to listen together there will be a bonding that takes place and we together will start relating on a higher level. I level that is about walking into the room and turning the system on and exploring what each other are experiencing.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

geoffkait
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CDs
toledo wrote:

Have you ever experimented with lossless digital playback from a well designed USB dac like Gordon Rankins or other dedicated music servers.
This would eliminate some of these physical medium issues you document instead of putting band aids on them.
I cannot speak from experience on this, but if these are issues you wish to address this is a possible solution.
We have variable tuners that use somewhat tuneable music servers.

Would like to hear your findings.

I suspect the signal blockage will still be present in up stream components and possibly the USB dac, though and no tweaks will fix it.

Yes we variable tuners do blissfully listen to our entire collection of music.

P.s. Are we back to vague innuendos regarding peoples hearing? I am sure the readers and your customers or potential customers appreciate the somewhat elitist tone of your writings.

I only taking about CDs and CD playback. While it might be true downloading music is becoming very popular a lot of folks still listen to CDs. Don't you?

Geoff at Machina Dynamica

geoffkait
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Audiogram
iosiP wrote:

Unless, of course, you are directly streaming music to your brain (using the phone, and without turning on your audio gear).

I don't have an audiogram but I did hear a mouse fart at 40 paces once. Does that count?

Geoff Kait
Machina Erotica

ChrisS
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You don't have to carry a big stick!

Your "inclusive" attitude is extremely refreshing, Michael!

iosiP
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Yessir!
geoffkait wrote:

I don't have an audiogram but I did hear a mouse fart at 40 paces once. Does that count?

It shows you're an expert on farting, which should give you any credentials you require!

geoffkait
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Whole Lotta Spewin' Goin' On
michael green wrote:

Many wonder why the audiophile world is at a stand still. Sadly we who are reading these threads are seeing why in almost real time.

How many times I have stood at the edge of a showroom with the "know it's" spewing all over the people waiting to enter. Finally we do enter and hear just how bad these systems are (according to show reports), more spewing begins when we ask why. We come on forums to share and even more spewing. No listening mind you, but plenty of spewing. "here's" why this is" they say, still no listening. I walk into to one of my systems and listen to a distortion free paradise producing beautiful, huge graphic soundstages and I'm ready to share my experience, come to the threads, and more spewing.

A hobby that has created so many systems, and so many "experts". Experts that as you start to peel back the layers you begin to see that there is little listening going on at all. Tons of talk but very little listening.

Geoff I invite you to come listen with us. Come experience this side of the hobby and business. Please share with us not how it works but give us a listening tour of your world. We on this forum are starting to get closer as of late, and I believe are on the edge of listening together. Would you join us on this adventure? I think that even though people have different ideas when we start to listen together there will be a bonding that takes place and we together will start relating on a higher level. I level that is about walking into the room and turning the system on and exploring what each other are experiencing.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

Whole lotta spewin' goin' on. Sounds like a Jerry Lee Lewis song.

You might have prompted me to pick up the 2009 remaster of Abbey Road....

Geoff at Machina Dynamica

toledo
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geoffkait wrote:
geoffkait wrote:
toledo wrote:

Have you ever experimented with lossless digital playback from a well designed USB dac like Gordon Rankins or other dedicated music servers.
This would eliminate some of these physical medium issues you document instead of putting band aids on them.
I cannot speak from experience on this, but if these are issues you wish to address this is a possible solution.
We have variable tuners that use somewhat tuneable music servers.

Would like to hear your findings.

I suspect the signal blockage will still be present in up stream components and possibly the USB dac, though and no tweaks will fix it.

Yes we variable tuners do blissfully listen to our entire collection of music.

P.s. Are we back to vague innuendos regarding peoples hearing? I am sure the readers and your customers or potential customers appreciate the somewhat elitist tone of your writings.

I only taking about CDs and CD playback. While it might be true downloading music is becoming very popular a lot of folks still listen to CDs. Don't you?

Geoff at Machina Dynamica

I think you kinda missed the point of the post.

Will somebody give that man a CD so he can join the party.

geoffkait
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Missed the point
toledo wrote:
geoffkait wrote:
toledo wrote:

Have you ever experimented with lossless digital playback from a well designed USB dac like Gordon Rankins or other dedicated music servers.
This would eliminate some of these physical medium issues you document instead of putting band aids on them.
I cannot speak from experience on this, but if these are issues you wish to address this is a possible solution.
We have variable tuners that use somewhat tuneable music servers.

Would like to hear your findings.

I suspect the signal blockage will still be present in up stream components and possibly the USB dac, though and no tweaks will fix it.

Yes we variable tuners do blissfully listen to our entire collection of music.

P.s. Are we back to vague innuendos regarding peoples hearing? I am sure the readers and your customers or potential customers appreciate the somewhat elitist tone of your writings.

I only taking about CDs and CD playback. While it might be true downloading music is becoming very popular a lot of folks still listen to CDs. Don't you?

Geoff at Machina Dynamica

I think you kinda missed the point of the post.

Will somebody give that man a CD so he can join the party.

Back at you. I am pretty sure you missed my point as well. Oh, well....

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

toledo
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geoffkait wrote:
geoffkait wrote:
toledo wrote:
geoffkait wrote:
toledo wrote:

Have you ever experimented with lossless digital playback from a well designed USB dac like Gordon Rankins or other dedicated music servers.
This would eliminate some of these physical medium issues you document instead of putting band aids on them.
I cannot speak from experience on this, but if these are issues you wish to address this is a possible solution.
We have variable tuners that use somewhat tuneable music servers.

Would like to hear your findings.

I suspect the signal blockage will still be present in up stream components and possibly the USB dac, though and no tweaks will fix it.

Yes we variable tuners do blissfully listen to our entire collection of music.

P.s. Are we back to vague innuendos regarding peoples hearing? I am sure the readers and your customers or potential customers appreciate the somewhat elitist tone of your writings.

I only taking about CDs and CD playback. While it might be true downloading music is becoming very popular a lot of folks still listen to CDs. Don't you?

Geoff at Machina Dynamica

I think you kinda missed the point of the post.

Will somebody give that man a CD so he can join the party.

Back at you. I am pretty sure you missed my point as well. Oh, well....

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

I think people get the point of your posts. They generally outline arguments that lead to the use of your products in a rather blatant fashion. You don't really want to discuss issues unless they are lead-ins to cd treatments or other tweaks.

People tend to push arguments in their favor, but, variable tuning is an Open Source type concept that can done with off the shelf components and ideas.

Got that off my chest and now come and join the listening party.

geoffkait
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Uh, Toledo
toledo wrote:
geoffkait wrote:
toledo wrote:
geoffkait wrote:
toledo wrote:

Have you ever experimented with lossless digital playback from a well designed USB dac like Gordon Rankins or other dedicated music servers.
This would eliminate some of these physical medium issues you document instead of putting band aids on them.
I cannot speak from experience on this, but if these are issues you wish to address this is a possible solution.
We have variable tuners that use somewhat tuneable music servers.

Would like to hear your findings.

I suspect the signal blockage will still be present in up stream components and possibly the USB dac, though and no tweaks will fix it.

Yes we variable tuners do blissfully listen to our entire collection of music.

P.s. Are we back to vague innuendos regarding peoples hearing? I am sure the readers and your customers or potential customers appreciate the somewhat elitist tone of your writings.

I only taking about CDs and CD playback. While it might be true downloading music is becoming very popular a lot of folks still listen to CDs. Don't you?

Geoff at Machina Dynamica

I think you kinda missed the point of the post.

Will somebody give that man a CD so he can join the party.

Back at you. I am pretty sure you missed my point as well. Oh, well....

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

I think people get the point of your posts. They generally outline arguments that lead to the use of your products in a rather blatant fashion. You don't really want to discuss issues unless they are lead-ins to cd treatments or other tweaks.

People tend to push arguments in their favor, but, variable tuning is an Open Source type concept that can done with off the shelf components and ideas.

Got that off my chest and now come and join the listening party.

I'm so confused. This IS the Tweaks and Tips forum. I am a tweaks manufacturer. Am I missing something? If you don't wish to discuss tweaks why are you even here? I mean other than to act as the local scold. It's my distinct impression you're just not used to or comfortable around advanced audiophiles. Plain fact is I have tweaks for digital as well as analog systems, even for video systems.

Geoff Kait
machina dynamica

toledo
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geoffkait wrote:
geoffkait wrote:
toledo wrote:
geoffkait wrote:
toledo wrote:
geoffkait wrote:
toledo wrote:

Have you ever experimented with lossless digital playback from a well designed USB dac like Gordon Rankins or other dedicated music servers.
This would eliminate some of these physical medium issues you document instead of putting band aids on them.
I cannot speak from experience on this, but if these are issues you wish to address this is a possible solution.
We have variable tuners that use somewhat tuneable music servers.

Would like to hear your findings.

I suspect the signal blockage will still be present in up stream components and possibly the USB dac, though and no tweaks will fix it.

Yes we variable tuners do blissfully listen to our entire collection of music.

P.s. Are we back to vague innuendos regarding peoples hearing? I am sure the readers and your customers or potential customers appreciate the somewhat elitist tone of your writings.

I only taking about CDs and CD playback. While it might be true downloading music is becoming very popular a lot of folks still listen to CDs. Don't you?

Geoff at Machina Dynamica

I think you kinda missed the point of the post.

Will somebody give that man a CD so he can join the party.

Back at you. I am pretty sure you missed my point as well. Oh, well....

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

I think people get the point of your posts. They generally outline arguments that lead to the use of your products in a rather blatant fashion. You don't really want to discuss issues unless they are lead-ins to cd treatments or other tweaks.

People tend to push arguments in their favor, but, variable tuning is an Open Source type concept that can done with off the shelf components and ideas.

Got that off my chest and now come and join the listening party.

I'm so confused. This IS the Tweaks and Tips forum. I am a tweaks manufacturer. Am I missing something? If you don't wish to discuss tweaks why are you even here? I mean other than to act as the local scold. It's my distinct impression you're just not used to or comfortable around advanced audiophiles. Plain fact is I have tweaks for digital as well as analog systems, even for video systems.

Geoff Kait
machina dynamica

Please review forum rules.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/note-manufacturers-2

geoffkait
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Catch 22
toledo wrote:
geoffkait wrote:
toledo wrote:
geoffkait wrote:
toledo wrote:
geoffkait wrote:
toledo wrote:

Have you ever experimented with lossless digital playback from a well designed USB dac like Gordon Rankins or other dedicated music servers.
This would eliminate some of these physical medium issues you document instead of putting band aids on them.
I cannot speak from experience on this, but if these are issues you wish to address this is a possible solution.
We have variable tuners that use somewhat tuneable music servers.

Would like to hear your findings.

I suspect the signal blockage will still be present in up stream components and possibly the USB dac, though and no tweaks will fix it.

Yes we variable tuners do blissfully listen to our entire collection of music.

P.s. Are we back to vague innuendos regarding peoples hearing? I am sure the readers and your customers or potential customers appreciate the somewhat elitist tone of your writings.

I only taking about CDs and CD playback. While it might be true downloading music is becoming very popular a lot of folks still listen to CDs. Don't you?

Geoff at Machina Dynamica

I think you kinda missed the point of the post.

Will somebody give that man a CD so he can join the party.

Back at you. I am pretty sure you missed my point as well. Oh, well....

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

I think people get the point of your posts. They generally outline arguments that lead to the use of your products in a rather blatant fashion. You don't really want to discuss issues unless they are lead-ins to cd treatments or other tweaks.

People tend to push arguments in their favor, but, variable tuning is an Open Source type concept that can done with off the shelf components and ideas.

Got that off my chest and now come and join the listening party.

I'm so confused. This IS the Tweaks and Tips forum. I am a tweaks manufacturer. Am I missing something? If you don't wish to discuss tweaks why are you even here? I mean other than to act as the local scold. It's my distinct impression you're just not used to or comfortable around advanced audiophiles. Plain fact is I have tweaks for digital as well as analog systems, even for video systems.

Geoff Kait
machina dynamica

Please review forum rules.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/note-manufacturers-2[/quote]

Catch 22. Very familiar with. Manufacturers cannot discuss anything since anything can be construed as promoting ones products.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

toledo
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geoffkait wrote:
geoffkait wrote:
toledo wrote:
geoffkait wrote:
toledo wrote:
geoffkait wrote:
toledo wrote:
geoffkait wrote:
toledo wrote:

Have you ever experimented with lossless digital playback from a well designed USB dac like Gordon Rankins or other dedicated music servers.
This would eliminate some of these physical medium issues you document instead of putting band aids on them.
I cannot speak from experience on this, but if these are issues you wish to address this is a possible solution.
We have variable tuners that use somewhat tuneable music servers.

Would like to hear your findings.

I suspect the signal blockage will still be present in up stream components and possibly the USB dac, though and no tweaks will fix it.

Yes we variable tuners do blissfully listen to our entire collection of music.

P.s. Are we back to vague innuendos regarding peoples hearing? I am sure the readers and your customers or potential customers appreciate the somewhat elitist tone of your writings.

I only taking about CDs and CD playback. While it might be true downloading music is becoming very popular a lot of folks still listen to CDs. Don't you?

Geoff at Machina Dynamica

I think you kinda missed the point of the post.

Will somebody give that man a CD so he can join the party.

Back at you. I am pretty sure you missed my point as well. Oh, well....

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

I think people get the point of your posts. They generally outline arguments that lead to the use of your products in a rather blatant fashion. You don't really want to discuss issues unless they are lead-ins to cd treatments or other tweaks.

People tend to push arguments in their favor, but, variable tuning is an Open Source type concept that can done with off the shelf components and ideas.

Got that off my chest and now come and join the listening party.

I'm so confused. This IS the Tweaks and Tips forum. I am a tweaks manufacturer. Am I missing something? If you don't wish to discuss tweaks why are you even here? I mean other than to act as the local scold. It's my distinct impression you're just not used to or comfortable around advanced audiophiles. Plain fact is I have tweaks for digital as well as analog systems, even for video systems.

Geoff Kait
machina dynamica

Please review forum rules.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/note-manufacturers-2

Catch 22. Very familiar with. Manufacturers cannot discuss anything since anything can be construed as promoting ones products.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica[/quote]

You can choose to post here or not, that is your choice.
You don't make the rules.

I have lost count of how many references to 'nimbus' or artificial atoms there are in your posts and these are just the obvious ones.

Try discussing things on a listening level and engage others instead of browbeating the merits of your ideas through technical obfuscation.

We also get it Geoff... Your smart, we're dumb.

What's the old saying which I will butcher. When you look around the room and all you see are idiots, you may want to look in the mirror.

toledo
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Geoff don't quote last post

Thread has gotten out of kilter due to misplaced quote tag.
I will keep an eye on this also.

geoffkait
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Technical obfuscation

Toledo, that's kind if an interesting accusation you make as if I'm not mistaken I have gone to some pains to describe technically my point. I think perhaps you are being a little bit hyper critical. You just don't like the answer or you're overly suspicious. Pseudo skeptical, maybe.

I haven't made the Nimbus in years. I use it as an example to explain vibration isolation. A very good example.

I would have thought Artificial atoms would have generated a little more interest. Oh, well...

Geoff at Machina Dynamica

michael green
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the listening part

Geoff, if I may, I think what is being said is as you make suggestions it's nice to tie it in with specific listening that you are doing now while tweaking, or even a past listening session so that we all as listeners, designers, engineers and hobbyist can get to a point of relating.

If I had my way this would be one big jamm session and people would be coming in and out of each others listening rooms, listening and learning not only about each others systems but also about our tastes and how we get from one place to the next while listening. For myself and the "Tunees" we take a variable approach, others take more of a "fixed" approach, but the end goal is to be able to play recordings and compare.

Let me give an example. Bill on the referencing thread mentioned his cymbals splashing. What if someone is out there and not hearing the cymbals filling the entire stage like Bill's is and they would like to have this? If Bill is listening farfield and I am listening extreme nearfield and let say Toledo is listening midfield, right here are 3 different views to enjoy this recording from. None of us are saying the other is right or wrong we are just relating so all of us can hear each others stage. I for one am hoping to learn even more about one of my favorite recordings, so when I hear Bill or Teledo, or Costin or you bring up a sound I'm not hearing, you can bet I'm going to put on my tuning gloves and go after it (that's what tunees do). Maybe through this I'm hoping that some might say "wow he can do that", and that's how I make my pitch of variable tuning. I'm not going to stand up and wave my hands and say everyone come and buy CornerTunes or whatever. That's not why I'm here. I'm here so people can see that there is a way they can get where their going if stuck, or if they want to go just a bit further without having to play the trade equipment game the rest of their lives. So there you have it, my pitch. But my pitch is only as good as me being able to go up to my system and tune it to the sound that Bill has or you or anyone else. I'm not going to tell them they are wrong and I am right. I'm going to be a faithful student of variable tuning and let people know that they can go wherever they want and it's ok. As detailed as they want or as big, as revealing or spacious. But I'm not going to throw things at them without being an active listener in their game as well as mine. If I can't get there, I'm going to say "how did you get there", likewise if I do get there I'm going to share how. I'm not going to say they aren't there and I am, and if they say they don't believe me well it's up to them to try tuning for themselves. If they do they will find what I have and if not than they will maybe get there another way and maybe choose not to worry about it, next recording.

Geoff, I want to help people be able to listen to more music not stand there and say "that's not possible", or "show me the specs". They have two ears and can join in anytime they want, so can you by referencing with us. At the end of the day we're either a bunch of great listeners or a bunch of hot air needing to be heard. Proof is in the listening, words....well I prefer listening.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

geoffkait
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Hallelujah!

I'll drink to that.

Geoff Kait,
Machina Dynamica

wkhanna
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A fragile détente....

...appears to have been reached.

Don't anybody breathe!

michael green
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so true

Why does it take so long for audiophiles to listen together? It seems like so many times it has to get through the brain (theory correctness), and the egos, and then finally after a Rocky movie or two we get to the listening.

as Bob says "slow train coming"

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

wkhanna
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This is not a crisis....

It is music.

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