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toledo
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Mass loaded isolation, dampening and vibration control
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Michael, you might have forgotten I am strictly using a dedicated headphone system. Yes I recommend placing speakers closer together than one would ordinarily think, this is actually the recommendation of the good folks at XLO, Roger Skoff and Keith O. Johnson. The reason for the better sound with speakers relatively close together compared to where a lot of folks might place them - what would you guess, 6 to 8 feet apart in an average room? - is the physics of the speaker/room system. When speakers are properly set up, and I'm not saying all speakers should be 4 or 4.5 feet or even 5 feet apart, it all depends on the speakers and the room, layout, types of room treatment, distance to the listener, obviously. And toe in should not be necessary in most cases, all things being equal, which of course they frequently aren't. Lol. For my system when I had Fultons, the proper distance between them was about 4.5 feet iirc. I am just suggesting that folks rethink the whole speaker placement thing as you might be able to do better. As I also mentioned, or at least I think I did, the best speaker locations in terms of center fill, soundstage, etc. will be found using the XLO Test CD as opposed to the tedious and relatively less inaccurate process of trial and error, moving a little, listening a little.

Moving right along, I am not a big fan of transformer noise and it's effect in the other electronic components and wiring in the component, and cannot conceive why that noise would produce a better soundstage than would the elimination of the noise. By the same token the magnetic field of the transformer impinges negatively on the electrical components and wires in the component and needs to be dealt with to achieve the best results, to achieve taut, dynamic bass, more information and a larger, expanding sphere of the sound. The magnetic field issue can be saved for another day. What I think we are looking for soundstage wise is the dimensions of the actual room or hall where the recording was made, assuming the thing was recorded live. I'm pretty confident all the room echo and reverberant decay and so on is captured on the recording, all things being equal.

Soundstage height kind of comes with the territory, don't you think, the larger the expanding sphere the higher the soundstage and the more you can perceive the sound all around you, perhaps way to the sides or even behind you under the right conditions, assuming the information is on the recording. By the way vibration isolation of the components (I.e. Mass on spring iso system) is quite important for achieving the largest and most accurate soundstage depth, width and height. But a real, live, integrated soundstage, not a projected facsimile of a soundstage.

Cheers, Geoff @ Machina Dynamica

Geoff,

This is a better place to discuss your ideas and not in Room tuning and Acoustics.

toledo
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Spring isolation

Spring isolation is an old area used in variable tuning. However, very light weight springs were used coupled to the component via thin wood. It was more a transfer process, though, and not isolation.

We are not that far apart on this except for the mass loading part and heavy springs.

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Interesting vibes.....

Barry Diament has some opinions on vibrations.

http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/vibration.htm

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Mass on spring
toledo wrote:

Spring isolation is an old area used in variable tuning. However, very light weight springs were used coupled to the component via thin wood. It was more a transfer process, though, and not isolation.

We are not that far apart on this except for the mass loading part and heavy springs.

Actually my Nimbus isolation stand was a mass on spring device. The Nimbus debuted with Mapleshade Recording Studio at CES in Sin City 17 years back. When I use the term mass on spring I am referring specifically to vibration isolation. My first device was a 0.5 Hz six degree of freedom airspring device. My second device was a mechanical spring stand that was able to support much more weight. Almost all isolation devices are mass on spring devices. There are some notable exceptions like magnetic levitation and negative stiffness devices. Would you believe all of these things fit right in with my background in theoretical fluid dynamics? My current isolation thingamabob is a set of cryo'd high carbon steel miniature springs.

Cheers, Geoff at Machina Dynamica

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Things are getting funny here...

I thing you all forget we are talking about three different things:
1. Mechanical vibrations (and the associated electromagnetically induced noise) in circuits where the musical signal travels as voltage and current.
2. Mechanical vibrations (and electromagnetically induced noise) in the transducers/loudspeakers, and their influences on both the electronic and mechanical part of vibration control.
3. Sound waves as mechanical vibrations, with all the known (and less known) influences on the psycho-acoustic effect of listening to music.

Now let me put it straight:

- airborne or material-induced vibrations in electrical circuits are bad: these cause mechanical vibrations not correlated to music and, as such, induce voltage/current artifacts into the (electrical) signal propagation chain. Therefore, I would make my system as mechanically damped as possible (concrete would be nice, but I can do with thick and non-vibrating cases on a rigid stand);

- transducers should only reproduce whatever signal they are feed (I won't go into electrical damping, this is another story). So, if a transducer also vibrates as a result of "recoil" this will certainly cause a smearing of the acoustical signal, which is bad. Yes, it will also have a deleterious effect on the power amp (by way of back-EMF) but then I promised not to go into much theory. Anyhow, speakers should be rigidly coupled to the floor (or to a high mass platform), so they only vibrate according to the electrical signal feed to them;

- the room interacts with the speakers depending on their specific position and dispersion. Here there is no fast rule: it all depends on the lateral dispersion of the speakers, their positioning and the acoustic properties of the room - just listen and decide (and yes, by all means, use the XLO test disc if you don't trust your own ears). However, always be conscious that what you gain in soundstage width is what you lose in imaging: there is always a trade-off, an it's all depending on your room, on your speakers and on your musical preferences.

My $0.02

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Kool Aid
wkhanna wrote:

Barry Diament has some opinions on vibrations.

http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/vibration.htm[/quote]

I hate to judge before all the facts are but it doth appear Barry Diament hath drunk from the Kool Aid of Machina Dynamica.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Walls have ears
iosiP wrote:

I

- the room interacts with the speakers depending on their specific position and dispersion. Here there is no fast rule: it all depends on the lateral dispersion of the speakers, their positioning and the acoustic properties of the room - just listen and decide (and yes, by all means, use the XLO test disc if you don't trust your own ears). However, always be conscious that what you gain in soundstage width is what you lose in imaging: there is always a trade-off, an it's all depending on your room, on your speakers and on your musical preferences.

My $0.02

If you don't mind too much my saying so the walls of the room vibrate like a drum head whilst music is playing. I trust I'm not saying something too esoteric. Would it really be so bad if we damped the walls? Just a little bit? Is that too much to ask?

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

iosiP
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geoffkait wrote:
geoffkait wrote:

If you don't mind too much my saying so the walls of the room vibrate like a drum head whilst music is playing. I trust I'm not saying something too esoteric. Would it really be so bad if we damped the walls? Just a little bit?

Geoff, not all walls are vibrating! This may be valid in the US, where most walls (at least the internal ones) are drywall or plaster, but my home has brick walls of between 1 and 1.5 ft thick: I guarantee you won't make those resonate unless using a sledgehammer!
Actually, I was referring to the reflections of sound...

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Wow
geoffkait][quote=wkhanna wrote:

Barry Diament has some opinions on vibrations.

http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/vibration.htm

I hate to judge before all the facts are but it doth appear Barry Diament hath drunk from the Kool Aid of Machina Dynamica.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Since you enjoy snark, snark it is.

You mean there is information on vibration control on the web??!! I am shocked, shocked I say .... you found something relevant to your vibration control thesis. What a Perry Mason moment. Stop the presses!

But, inner tube, air bladder vibration control and my enthusiasm is deflated.

Well I guess the Koolaid makes sense since this tech has been around just as long and may I say 'tastes' just as good.

Since you love wiki so much, you may want to review how 'drinking the koolaid' is defined.

"Drinking the Kool-Aid" is a figure of speech commonly used in the United States that refers to a person or group holding an unquestioned belief, argument, or philosophy without critical examination.

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geoffkait wrote:
geoffkait wrote:
iosiP wrote:

I

- the room interacts with the speakers depending on their specific position and dispersion. Here there is no fast rule: it all depends on the lateral dispersion of the speakers, their positioning and the acoustic properties of the room - just listen and decide (and yes, by all means, use the XLO test disc if you don't trust your own ears). However, always be conscious that what you gain in soundstage width is what you lose in imaging: there is always a trade-off, an it's all depending on your room, on your speakers and on your musical preferences.

My $0.02

If you don't mind too much my saying so the walls of the room vibrate like a drum head whilst music is playing. I trust I'm not saying something too esoteric. Would it really be so bad if we damped the walls? Just a little bit? Is that too much to ask?

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

The true Geoff Kait of AudioAsylum fame has finally arrived. A little condescending debate approach never fails to try to win an argument. How did that approach work out on the AudioAsylum tweak forum .. not too well if I recall.

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Asylum
toledo wrote:
geoffkait wrote:
iosiP wrote:

I

- the room interacts with the speakers depending on their specific position and dispersion. Here there is no fast rule: it all depends on the lateral dispersion of the speakers, their positioning and the acoustic properties of the room - just listen and decide (and yes, by all means, use the XLO test disc if you don't trust your own ears). However, always be conscious that what you gain in soundstage width is what you lose in imaging: there is always a trade-off, an it's all depending on your room, on your speakers and on your musical preferences.

My $0.02

If you don't mind too much my saying so the walls of the room vibrate like a drum head whilst music is playing. I trust I'm not saying something too esoteric. Would it really be so bad if we damped the walls? Just a little bit? Is that too much to ask?

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

The true Geoff Kait of AudioAsylum fame has finally arrived. A little condescending debate approach never fails to try to win an argument. How did that approach work out on the AudioAsylum tweak forum .. not too well if I recall.

Every king has his reign.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dramatica

toledo
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Live free
geoffkait wrote:
toledo wrote:
geoffkait wrote:
iosiP wrote:

I

- the room interacts with the speakers depending on their specific position and dispersion. Here there is no fast rule: it all depends on the lateral dispersion of the speakers, their positioning and the acoustic properties of the room - just listen and decide (and yes, by all means, use the XLO test disc if you don't trust your own ears). However, always be conscious that what you gain in soundstage width is what you lose in imaging: there is always a trade-off, an it's all depending on your room, on your speakers and on your musical preferences.

My $0.02

If you don't mind too much my saying so the walls of the room vibrate like a drum head whilst music is playing. I trust I'm not saying something too esoteric. Would it really be so bad if we damped the walls? Just a little bit? Is that too much to ask?

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

The true Geoff Kait of AudioAsylum fame has finally arrived. A little condescending debate approach never fails to try to win an argument. How did that approach work out on the AudioAsylum tweak forum .. not too well if I recall.

Every king has his reign.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dramatica

... to forever live in exile.

The nerve of those silly little townspeople with their pitchforks that could not see the wisdom ...

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Could we please go back on topic?

And leave personal feuds to where they belong: on the main (and only) street of a small western town, to be solved at noon with Colt 45 arguments?

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iosiP wrote:
iosiP wrote:

And leave personal feuds to where they belong: on the main (and only) street of a small western town, to be solved at noon with Colt 45 arguments?

I agree .. Let's get back to audio.

I do need to clarify that this is not a previous feud.. I just "met" the guy on this forum and figured him out pretty quick. Any info on him was found when I researched his bonafides as an audio designer. I hated bringing up the past, but, he is starting up with his condescension and it will not stop. I hope Geoff takes some advice and conducts himself appropriately on this forum.

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The closer you look the better I look
toledo wrote:
iosiP wrote:

And leave personal feuds to where they belong: on the main (and only) street of a small western town, to be solved at noon with Colt 45 arguments?

I agree .. Let's get back to audio.

I do need to clarify that this is not a previous feud.. I just "met" the guy on this forum and figured him out pretty quick. Any info on him was found when I researched his bonafides as an audio designer. I hated bringing up the past, but, he is starting up with his condescension and it will not stop. I hope Geoff takes some advice and conducts himself appropriately on this forum.

http://youtu.be/8vY-4zWKsJM

Cheers,

Geoff @ Machina Dramatica

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Mass on spring
toledo][quote=geoffkait wrote:
wkhanna wrote:

Barry Diament has some opinions on vibrations.

http://www.barrydiamentaudio.com/vibration.htm

I hate to judge before all the facts are but it doth appear Barry Diament hath drunk from the Kool Aid of Machina Dynamica.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Since you enjoy snark, snark it is.

You mean there is information on vibration control on the web??!! I am shocked, shocked I say .... you found something relevant to your vibration control thesis. What a Perry Mason moment. Stop the presses!

But, inner tube, air bladder vibration control and my enthusiasm is deflated.

Well I guess the Koolaid makes sense since this tech has been around just as long and may I say 'tastes' just as good.

Since you love wiki so much, you may want to review how 'drinking the koolaid' is defined.

"Drinking the Kool-Aid" is a figure of speech commonly used in the United States that refers to a person or group holding an unquestioned belief, argument, or philosophy without critical examination.

In his favor he apparently knows the difference between mass on a spring vibration isolation and mass loading. Would you believe I published my theory of vibration on the Internet 17 years ago? There was almost no audio related info on the subject at that time. Shannon Dickson of Stereophile was the first to write extensively on the subject. In fact Shannon Dickson provided me with an important piece of my six degree of freedom Sub Hertz Platform design.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Mincing words

Geoff,
I think I already stated my view point on springs at top of post.

Your product uses a 25 lb ballast on the air bladder ... I think most people would consider this mass.

I have found that air bladder isolation leads to a somewhat slow, fat music presentation. Theory meets listening. I will rely on my 25 years of listening. Damn we're old.

Air has its use as in Rockport turntables tone arms, but, not IMHO as general component isolation.

I think Costin is waiting for a reply.

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Airsprings and ballast
toledo wrote:

Geoff,
I think I already stated my view point on springs at top of post.

Yes, I know, and as I tried to point out several times mass on spring devices are mechanical low pass filters.

[/quote]Your product uses a 25 lb ballast on the air bladder ... I think most people would consider this mass.[/quote]

Yes it is mass...mass on a spring (airspring). The ballast is located below decks, kind like Vibraplane. In my case, the mass below decks improves the lateral stability of the system, which employs a single airspring. Have you ever tried to balance a forty pound turntable on a single rubber airspring?

Quote:

I have found that air bladder isolation leads to a somewhat slow, fat music presentation. Theory meets listening. I will rely on my 25 years of listening. Damn we're old.

That's because you haven't heard the right air "bladders." The ones almost everyone uses are not the right geometry, far from it. And they use too many of them. Thus the resonant frequency you can obtain is just so low and no lower. There really is both art and science to the whole isolation thing. The resonant frequency of the isolating system is equal to a Constant times the square root of the ratio of the total spring rate over the total mass.

If number of years in the game were of any real value all us old dudes would have great systems and we would all be geniuses.

Quote:

Air has its use as in Rockport turntables tone arms, but, not IMHO as general component isolation.

.

Well, actually the whole Rockport turntable is up on a dedicated four point iso system, which is, you guessed it, a mass on spring system. My single point Nimbus' performance is far better than Rockport's system. Vibraplane is also mass on spring with ballast weight, kinda like mine. Any turntable with feet is also a mass on spring system. Bright Star and Seismic Sink - also mass on spring systems. I have also been using steel spring based iso systems for a great many years, at least 13.

Cheers,
Geoff @Machina Dynamica

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Low Mass Free Resonant guy

Hi Geoff,

A full page post just for lil ole me. I am flattered.

I thought I made it pretty clear in my post that I was discussing air and its qualities and uses, IMO. Not springs.
I did zero in the use of air in turntables and agree it has it's merits.. Just didn't finish my thought process. Us old dudes need much more coffee in the morning.

The point being for general component use, I do not like its properties.

I kinda figured the discussion would lead to me not using the "right" products.

You know where I stand. I am a low mass free resonant system guy after being let down by other high-mass systems all these years.

You're making your sales pitch to the wrong guy, but, I don't think I am your intended audience.

Now where is my dang hearing aide that I have used for the last 25 years.

Salud

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Sorry to intrude in your debate

But I do know a guy (high-end dealer) that uses plenty of air bladders under most anything - I thing even his toilet seat sits on an air bladder.
Well, together with his placing the speakers too far apart and with limited or no toe-in gives a huge soundstage but almost no imaging: last time I listened to some violin solos there was a cloud of violin maybe 8 feet wide and desperatly changing position and shape according to the pitch of the notes being played.
The record was "Stradivarius on Gold CD" but I joked callng it "Stradivarius on Jellyfish Pancake".

P.S. The only time I had any use for an airbladder was when I had a broken spine and had to sit 24/24 for three months (no way to stand or lay down). But then, it came together with a portable urinal... who knows, you may try to adapt one for audio?

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Low mass
toledo wrote:

Hi Geoff,

A full page post just for lil ole me. I am flattered.

I thought I made it pretty clear in my post that I was discussing air and its qualities and uses, IMO. Not springs.
I did zero in the use of air in turntables and agree it has it's merits.. Just didn't finish my thought process. Us old dudes need much more coffee in the morning.

The point being for general component use, I do not like its properties.

I kinda figured the discussion would lead to me not using the "right" products.

You know where I stand. I am a low mass free resonant system guy after being let down by other high-mass systems all these years.

You're making your sales pitch to the wrong guy, but, I don't think I am your intended audience.

Now where is my dang hearing aide that I have used for the last 25 years.

Salud

A component sitting on a "mass on spring" isolation system actually weighs considerably less than if were sitting on a low mass base of your choice. See the irony? Now, which is really the low mass system? My systems are not high mass systems any more than a system sitting on a cement slab is a high mass system. Follow?

Cheers, Geoff at Machina Dynamica

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You are missing the point of

You are missing the point of low mass free resonance. Vibrations and tone of the materials are the key ingredients plus no signal blockage. It eschews dampening and vibration killing.

A question I would like to ask is why don't you agree to a direct listening test between dampened and isolated system and a well tuned low mass system?

You are very proud of your life's work and I would think you would want to show it off.

Guys with low mass systems can't wait to show off.

I am sure you and Michael can come up with a test situation that is agreeable to both of you.

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Look Geoff, now you really started to piss me off

And I'm kind of a laid-back guy, until someone gets me out of my pants.
So let me spell it out for you: I dunno how well your platform works (it might even be the best thing since sliced bread) but I do now for sure some of your tweaks are pure snake oil! Now please don't get me started or I promise you'll have your arms full of "it" when I'll start dissecting your claims.

If you still don't get it, I came to these forums to exchange some ideas about audio (including but not limited to tweaks) and maybe learn a thing or two from people who have more hands-on experience and are willing to share it, not to read you endless rants about how you made the Jello stand still.

Capisci?

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Huh?
iosiP wrote:

And I'm kind of a laid-back guy, until someone gets me out of my pants.
So let me spell it out for you: I dunno how well your platform works (it might even be the best thing since sliced bread) but I do now for sure some of your tweaks are pure snake oil! Now please don't get me started or I promise you'll have your arms full of "it" when I'll start dissecting your claims.

If you still don't get it, I came to these forums to exchange some ideas about audio (including but not limited to tweaks) and maybe learn a thing or two from people who have more hands-on experience and are willing to share it, not to read you endless rants about how you made the Jello stand still.

Capisci?

Hey, don't get your knickers in a twist, I don't even sell the platform any more, haven't sold it for years I just enjoy debating the issues. One thing, if I can be so bold, you seem either unable or unwilling to do. You can go back to sleep, now, Mr. know-it-all.

Cheerio

Geoff at Machina Dynamica

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Quote:
Quote:

Hey, don't get your knickers in a twist, I don't even sell the platform any more, haven't sold it for years I just enjoy debating the issues. You can go back to sleep, now, Mr. know-it-all.

Well you just lost all credibility. If you want to swap war stories, the American Legion is down the street.
I will give your posts the attention they deserve.
This is just a game for you peddling your trinkets.

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Meeting by the river
toledo wrote:

You are missing the point of low mass free resonance. Vibrations and tone of the materials are the key ingredients plus no signal blockage. It eschews dampening and vibration killing.

A question I would like to ask is why don't you agree to a direct listening test between dampened and isolated system and a well tuned low mass system?

You are very proud of your life's work and I would think you would want to show it off.

Guys with low mass systems can't wait to show off.

I am sure you and Michael can come up with a test situation that is agreeable to both of you.

Life's work? Dunno where you got that from. Shirley you jest. Maybe 1/100 of my life's work. :-)

Cheers,

Geoff Kait, Machina Dynamica

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No kiddin?
geoffkait wrote:

Hey, don't get your knickers in a twist, I don't even sell the platform any more, haven't sold it for years I just enjoy debating the issues. You can go back to sleep, now, Mr. know-it-all.

At least I'm awake, which cannot be said about you, Mr. Shiny-Pebbles!
But you are wrong, and I do not know it all. For example, before going to your site I never knew that:
- light can travel around convoluted paths (light fibers optics not included) and enter an almost airtight CD tray;
- my sistem can be "tuned" over the phone, even in the OFF state (do I have to put the phone on speaker?);
- plastic cups with water in them can affect the sound of the system (yes they can, but only if you spill the water on the components);
- my RGB LED lamp reads my mind (or maybe not: it have to be the special Mind Lamp from Psyleron to do it).

Keep dreaming... and hoping stupidity keeps on spreading, or else you'll lose your customer base!

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iosiP wrote:
iosiP wrote:

And I'm kind of a laid-back guy, until someone gets me out of my pants.
So let me spell it out for you: I dunno how well your platform works (it might even be the best thing since sliced bread) but I do now for sure some of your tweaks are pure snake oil! Now please don't get me started or I promise you'll have your arms full of "it" when I'll start dissecting your claims.

If you still don't get it, I came to these forums to exchange some ideas about audio (including but not limited to tweaks) and maybe learn a thing or two from people who have more hands-on experience and are willing to share it, not to read you endless rants about how you made the Jello stand still.

Capisci?

Hey Costin,

What about taking Michaels offer and post your system on the tuneland forum. I think you may find what you are looking without all the "distractions".

It may not be for you but you could maybe address the room tuning aspect you inquired about.

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toledo wrote:
toledo wrote:

Hey Costin,

I think you should take up Michaels offer and post your system on the tuneland forum. I think you may find what you are looking without all the "distractions".

It may not be for you but you could maybe address the room tuning aspect you inquired about.

I'll certainly will, just give me time for some photos (to be shot by a friend, since I am nill at that "sport"). But I sure hope to have a decent conversation with Michael, with science as a support, since I got sick and tired of neutrino-activated black holes scattering the light of my laser lenses (or something similar). I certainly wonder how stupid (or desperate) can someoone be to buy into this mumbo-jumbo? Well, I'm sure my mind-reading lamp will tell me...

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iosiP wrote:
iosiP wrote:
toledo wrote:

Hey Costin,

I think you should take up Michaels offer and post your system on the tuneland forum. I think you may find what you are looking without all the "distractions".

It may not be for you but you could maybe address the room tuning aspect you inquired about.

I'll certainly will, just give me time for some photos (to be shot by a friend, since I am nill at that "sport"). But I sure hope to have a decent conversation with Michael, with science as a support, since I got sick and tired of neutrino-activated black holes scattering the light of my laser lenses (or something similar). I certainly wonder how stupid (or desperate) can someoone be to buy into this mumbo-jumbo? Well, I'm sure my mind-reading lamp will tell me...

Hehe mind boggling for sure. If you wish to get started, pics can added later. That's what I did. The format is basically you own your own thread and a back and forth posting can be done related to your system. This way things can be tracked and referred to.

There is an member from Singapore that has hard walls like yours that may shed some insight besides Michael.

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Tuneland

Hi Costin

I think you'll enjoy Tuneland a lot. We have a very open forum and if there is a theory that I haven't tried out I will do my absolute best to explore it from a listening point of view.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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It's not rocket science
iosiP wrote:
geoffkait wrote:

Hey, don't get your knickers in a twist, I don't even sell the platform any more, haven't sold it for years I just enjoy debating the issues. You can go back to sleep, now, Mr. know-it-all.

At least I'm awake, which cannot be said about you, Mr. Shiny-Pebbles!
But you are wrong, and I do not know it all. For example, before going to your site I never knew that:
- light can travel around convoluted paths (light fibers optics not included) and enter an almost airtight CD tray;
- my sistem can be "tuned" over the phone, even in the OFF state (do I have to put the phone on speaker?);
- plastic cups with water in them can affect the sound of the system (yes they can, but only if you spill the water on the components);
- my RGB LED lamp reads my mind (or maybe not: it have to be the special Mind Lamp from Psyleron to do it).

Keep dreaming... and hoping stupidity keeps on spreading, or else you'll lose your customer base!

Come on, I bet a PhD can think of at least one reason why water might affect the sound in a room. It's not rocket science. For example, you might opine that the water temperature affects the speed of sound in the room.

If you examined a CD player you would see there are at least a few light can enter and escape. Besides, it's moot as we have a much better way to do it these days than placing the little thingamabob on top of the player. Didn't you get the memo? Extra Credit: how many CD laser photons can pass thru a hole the size of a pinhead in 2 seconds?

Systems can be tuned over the telephone. My personal best is 10,000 miles. I'm guessing there wasn't a chapter on quantum teleportation in your information theory textbooks, eh?

The mind lamp can read a mind that is active, probably not one at rest. ;-). I suppose as a theoretical type you're not into the whole mind matter interaction thing, eh? That's weird.

At least you're debating the issues. Good on ya, mate!

Cheers

Geoff Kait,
Machina Dynamica

michael green
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systems

Geoff

I hope you can appreciate that Costin, Toledo and I all are listening to a stereo in a room. Even though we may be exploring the audio signal together and may differ on our results based on our experiences or thoughts we are still listening and using this as a guiding factor. We all agree that we are working with the three parts of the audio trilogy (acoustical, mechanical and electrical). We are also all three in room soundstage listeners. If we were headphone listeners only like yourself we would be in the headphone forum.

When I read your posts I have a very hard time understanding why. Why is this guy speaking from a point of view that he is not even a part of? It keeps seeming strange that you bring up all these points and your not even a practicing listener, the way the people you are talking to are listening. I think all of us have tried to be patient, and wouldn't mind if you were after the explorations we are, but every time I see a thread get on a roll it seems like you are a wayward cop throwing spikes strips randomly under listeners audio systems.

It's totally a free country, and a free hobby, but I could never recommend things or talk about things that I am not doing myself, and this is what I see happening over and over. When I read on this forum and others it seems like people are heading in a direction to either find something or delivering something. Something they are actively doing. Again I can buy you on the headphone forum and you describing here's what I did, here's what I heard, and here's what I think is happening to the best of my knowledge. That's how it works, plus because this hobby is a little on the engineer-y side and little theory siding or making. But I don't get the angle of ramdom sidetracks as if the guys talking here are not seasoned listeners. For myself I take it to a point and then when I see it is time to explore together through listening I say so. Kinda like "Ok we talked, time for the show part of show & tell". But when it is talk and talk and talk some more and no let's get down to it, I for one see no reason. I always pictured this as a listening hobby.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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Headphone system advantages

Headphone system advantages

1. Cost

2. Space requirements

3. Purity of sound

A. pure class A SET tubes or hybrid SET
B. No crossovers
C. Low power requirements
D. Put your money to work efficiently on expensive 6SN7s, or whatever your little heart desires
E. Now you can afford to cryo cables, tubes, CDs
F. You can also afford all those tweaks you've been thinking about.

4. Minimum number of cables. I have two power cords and one pair ICs plus headphone cable.

5. No room treatments necessary. None.

6. Did I mention purity of sound?

Cheers,

Geoff at
Machina Dynamica
We Do Artificial Atoms Right

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Purity of sound

If this is your goal, I suggest you experiment with a low mass system with minimal signal blockage. For the cost of a few tubes, you could set up a variable tuned system.
What do you have to lose ...

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And the point is?
geoffkait wrote:

Headphone system advantages

This is not a headphones vs. speakers debate, this is a talk between people who prefer loudspeakers. As Michael put it (gently) you have no business interfering for the simple reason that we are discussing things that are irrelevant to headphone listening.

Or to be clear: you may be a vegan and think this a much better way to eat: we don't challenge your beliefs, we just ask you to stop getting into discussions about the best recipe for hamburgers, just 'cause you have no way to tell a burger from McDo from one made of grade 7 Kobe beef.

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Debate
iosiP wrote:
geoffkait wrote:

Headphone system advantages

This is not a headphones vs. speakers debate, this is a talk between people who prefer loudspeakers. As Michael put it (gently) you have no business interfering for the simple reason that we are discussing things that are irrelevant to headphone listening.

Or to be clear: you may be a vegan and think this a much better way to eat: we don't challenge your beliefs, we just ask you to stop getting into discussions about the best recipe for hamburgers, just 'cause you have no way to tell a burger from McDo from one made of grade 7 Kobe beef.

I never said or even implied it was a headphone vs speaker debate but you and Michael have made it abundantly clear it IS. Good luck with all the angst and hostility.

Remember, there's no substitute for high signal to noise ratio. If you're out on your bike wear white.

Geoff Kait,
Machina Dramatica

michael green
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what exactly did you mention

Geoff's words

"6. Did I mention purity of sound?"

"There is no doubt that speakers, when I had them, are much more capable soundstage-wise than headphones; that's certainly one of the big challenges with headphones - to get as big and open and transparent and "realistic" a soundstage as possible. But I wouldn't say I was trying to get the soundstage my speakers, which were Fultons, had."

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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Yeah sure!
geoffkait wrote:

Remember, there's no substitute for high signal to noise ratio.

I suppose this is why you favour triodes in your setup: they have an amazing SNR, one that can really blow your socks off!

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Purity
michael green wrote:

Geoff's words

"6. Did I mention purity of sound?"

"There is no doubt that speakers, when I had them, are much more capable soundstage-wise than headphones; that's certainly one of the big challenges with headphones - to get as big and open and transparent and "realistic" a soundstage as possible. But I wouldn't say I was trying to get the soundstage my speakers, which were Fultons, had."

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

And?

Cheers,

Geoff Kait,
Machina Dynamica

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Purity of sound
iosiP wrote:
geoffkait wrote:

Remember, there's no substitute for high signal to noise ratio.

I suppose this is why you favour triodes in your setup: they have an amazing SNR, one that can really blow your socks off!

Triodes don't hurt. I have very specific triodes, '52 Sylvania 6SN7GT. And a WWII Tung Sol rectifier to go with them. The real trick though is getting the SNR of the CD up out of the noise floor where it's supposed to be. For a medium that has always been touted to have a very high SNR (circa 90 dB) it has frequently been obscured by noise and distortion. IMHO.

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Purity of Sound PT. II
michael green wrote:

Geoff's words

"6. Did I mention purity of sound?"

"There is no doubt that speakers, when I had them, are much more capable soundstage-wise than headphones; that's certainly one of the big challenges with headphones - to get as big and open and transparent and "realistic" a soundstage as possible. But I wouldn't say I was trying to get the soundstage my speakers, which were Fultons, had."

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

What do I mean when I use the term purity of sound? Well, have you even been sitting there, in the comfort of your BarcoLounger, and thought to yourself, "Geez, for a medium that has always been touted to have a very high SNR (circa 90 dB) it frequently sounds obscured by noise and distortion. Why does this sound thin, wiry, threadbare, irritating, rolled off, bass shy, boring, like paper mâché, two dimensional, weird, disembodied and compressed?"

Cheers,

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

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Strawman
Quote:

What do I mean when I use the term purity of sound? Well, have you even been sitting there, in the comfort of your BarcoLounger, and thought to yourself, "Geez, for a medium that has always been touted to have a very high SNR (circa 90 dB) it frequently sounds obscured by noise and distortion. Why does this sound thin, wiry, threadbare, irritating, rolled off, bass shy, boring, like paper mâché, two dimensional, weird, disembodied and compressed?"

So you now posit a strawman argument that the CD medium is the cause of all evil. So are we to assume all your component tweaks are of little use?

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purity

Hi Geoff

Actually, no I don't think those things. Since I've been tuning, whenever I hear something out of sorts I think one of two things, do I want to listen anyway or do I want to tune my system to the recording. For example this morning I put on "leftoverture". It sounded a lot like you describe, it doesn't now. I needed to find the vibratory code of this CD and match the system to it. Once done it sounds big, lush, deep, rich with lots of impact. It took a little tuning of the amp and the CD player and a little on the speaker platforms, but when it got locked in, slam! Kansas in all it's glory.

Geoff, with my systems I don't play the music through them and suffer through the good and bad. I make my systems so they allow the music to play the system. My systems have been made low mass which allows the music to have it's way and doesn't force the music to sound like components. I have learned there's a big difference between listening to a system and listening to a recording. I'll tell you what helped me learn this. Having 5 stereo stores taught me a ton about components and the way music either passes through or gets stuck in the components sound. When I discovered variable tuning the component game for me was over. I now spend my time uncovering the signal and not listening to it be shaped by the component, which to me is distortion regardless of measurements. I'm in this to be inside of a recording and that has little to do with numbers on a screen I have learned. Kinda goes back to J.Gordon talking about measurements. I didn't know Justin made this statement till well after I learned it on my own but I agree, some of the worst measured systems make the best music. I'd rather listen and make it a Kansas-fest or whatever musicfest I wish instead of being stuck to a theory or number. I'm in this to listen. Way too much music to learn about and enjoy, and with variable tuning it's only me and my skill that stands between me and my music.

Geoff, at the end of the day there are people who have do deal with their systems to tell them what to listen to. I no longer belong to that hobby. I belong to the hobby of exploring the recording.

michael green
MGA/RoomTune

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The first step
toledo wrote:
Quote:

What do I mean when I use the term purity of sound? Well, have you even been sitting there, in the comfort of your BarcoLounger, and thought to yourself, "Geez, for a medium that has always been touted to have a very high SNR (circa 90 dB) it frequently sounds obscured by noise and distortion. Why does this sound thin, wiry, threadbare, irritating, rolled off, bass shy, boring, like paper mâché, two dimensional, weird, disembodied and compressed?"

So you now posit a strawman argument that the CD medium is the cause of all evil. So are we to assume all your component tweaks are of little use?

The first step to fixing the problem is realizing you have a problem in the first place.

Made the scene, week to week
Day to day, hour to hour
The gate is straight
Deep and wide

Break on through to the other side
Break on through to the other side
Break on through, break on through
Break on through, break on through
Hey hey hey hey
Hey hey hey hey hey

Cheers,

Geoff Kait,
Machina Dramatica
Really Advanced Tweaks

iosiP
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Stop feeding the troll!

Just ignore!

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Troll
iosiP wrote:

Just ignore!

But I'm a pleasant troll; if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

:-)

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
Advanced Auto Parts

iosiP
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There are no roaches in my kitchen!
geoffkait wrote:

But I'm a pleasant troll; if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

They all get exterminated (I tried Brilliant Poison, but looks like standard Raid spray works much better).
BTW, ever tried the quantum teleportation to help people get rid of pest? I guess the Pied Piper of Hamelin role would suit you well!

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Geoff, you're a national treasure!

I wonder why you are not on your (private) island with a bunch of young exotic beauties waving palm leaves to keep you cool? Or better yet, how comes you are not locked down somewhere below a hangar in Area 51?

Just imagine: you found out how to modify the circuits of a turned-off electronic system by phone! I wonder: are those NSA/CIA people that stupid? They could use you to call the Kremlin and deactivate all Russian nukes just by playing "Katiusha", or maybe cripple the Iranian missiles by a loud burst of "Hava Nagila".

Now Snowden was a little child compared to you: the world peace lays in your frail hands, just a few phone calls away! Just do it, my friend, and I promise all your audiophile comrades will praise you as a savior (and who knows, maybe even buy a few of your "special" plastic jars).

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geoffkait wrote:
geoffkait wrote:
toledo wrote:
Quote:

What do I mean when I use the term purity of sound? Well, have you even been sitting there, in the comfort of your BarcoLounger, and thought to yourself, "Geez, for a medium that has always been touted to have a very high SNR (circa 90 dB) it frequently sounds obscured by noise and distortion. Why does this sound thin, wiry, threadbare, irritating, rolled off, bass shy, boring, like paper mâché, two dimensional, weird, disembodied and compressed?"

So you now posit a strawman argument that the CD medium is the cause of all evil. So are we to assume all your component tweaks are of little use?

The first step to fixing the problem is realizing you have a problem in the first place.

Cute little anecdotes when your argument hits the wall. A lazy man's debate approach or no answer?

The never ending excuses for high end components failings. I was there once so can relate.

The failings are not the medium but an overbuilt, high mass blocked signal path which no amount of tweaking will fix.

How about a little less BS and a little more experimenting with basic signal blockage and put the quantum stuff aside for a bit. Like I said, what do you have to lose.

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Who's on first?
iosiP wrote:

I wonder why you are not on your (private) island with a bunch of young exotic beauties waving palm leaves to keep you cool? Or better yet, how comes you are not locked down somewhere below a hangar in Area 51?

Just imagine: you found out how to modify the circuits of a turned-off electronic system by phone! I wonder: are those NSA/CIA people that stupid? They could use you to call the Kremlin and deactivate all Russian nukes just by playing "Katiusha", or maybe cripple the Iranian missiles by a loud burst of "Hava Nagila".

Now Snowden was a little child compared to you: the world peace lays in your frail hands, just a few phone calls away! Just do it, my friend, and I promise all your audiophile comrades will praise you as a savior (and who knows, maybe even buy a few of your "special" plastic jars).

Who's the real troll here? You are apparently much more adept at zingers than you are at physics. Eight years in the making, the Teleportation Tweak has been accused of breaking more laws of physics than you can shake a stick at. Are you going to demand that I provide links to the latest quantum teleportation experiment? Are you going to threaten to hold your breath? Are you going to threaten to turn me into the FCC?

"When you control the mail you control...information." Newman

Cheers, Geoff at Machina Dynamica

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