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jackfish
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Magnepan MMG and subwoofer

Any ideas about which subwoofer would mate the best with these?

mrlowry
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Re: Magnepan MMG and subwoofer

The REL subs are lightning fast, tonally accurate, and wonderful at seamlessly integrating with a wide variety of speakers. I've paired them with a number of Magnepans to great effect.

JoeE SP9
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Re: Magnepan MMG and subwoofer

There's no question that REL subs are good. However, all but one cost way more than MMG's. The T3 at $799 with an 8" woofer is questionable. Even that costs 25% more than the MMG's.

jackfish
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Re: Magnepan MMG and subwoofer

Know anything about the HSU STF-1?

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Re: Magnepan MMG and subwoofer

No. But I would think the better value is the STF-2 at $50.00 more but comfortable in medium size rooms.

mrlowry
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Re: Magnepan MMG and subwoofer


Quote:
There's no question that REL subs are good. However, all but one cost way more than MMG's. The T3 at $799 with an 8" woofer is questionable. Even that costs 25% more than the MMG's.

But one can't make decisions on price. Just because someone got an unbelievable deal when it comes performance to dollars spent doesn't mean that they should skimp on performance in another area. MMG's may cost $550 a pair but they perform more like a $1500 to $2000 per pair, maybe more. My older brother ran a pair of MMG's with a pair of $10,000 Audio Research monoblocks for space reasons for quite a while and that was a stunning sounding system, seriously.

KBK
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Re: Magnepan MMG and subwoofer

When doing match ups with electrostatics or the like, the best result happens when you find subs that have, lets say, 2 or 3 8" woofers. but not much if any bigger. getting the dynamic and expressive characteristics of the two driver types to match up -- is tricky.

You end up, eventually, hearing two different types of notes instead of a seamless blend.

JoeE SP9
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Re: Magnepan MMG and subwoofer

Maybe I should have said there are better buys out there for the same amount of money. Were I in that situation I'd look at Velodyne or Martin Logan for a sub.

Matching subs with stats, Maggy's or almost any planar is difficult because planars are di-polar and subs are essentially omni-directional. The lower the crossover point the easier it is to get good integration between the two. The relatively high crossover point ML uses in their smaller models shows the differences in radiation patterns in a bad light (to me).

KBK
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Re: Magnepan MMG and subwoofer

Oh yes. As well, try very hard to use sealed subs, and not ported subs. Very important with regard to integration.

jackfish
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Re: Magnepan MMG and subwoofer

Any information on the Martin Logan Dynamo 10" sub in closeout right now for $450? The low pass crossover is selectable from 30 - 80 Hz.

KBK
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Re: Magnepan MMG and subwoofer

looks good, as it is a sealed sub that is designed and implemented by the right guys - who just might know what I'm talking about, when it comes to integrating with a panel speaker.

greenelec
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Re: Magnepan MMG and subwoofer

I use a REL Storm w/MMGs and the sound is wonderful. Crossed over at 47hz. The REL is a ported 10" by the way.

KBK
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Re: Magnepan MMG and subwoofer


Quote:
I use a REL Storm w/MMGs and the sound is wonderful. Crossed over at 47hz. The REL is a ported 10" by the way.

This is the internet, so now, apparently, we have to fight or something.

I'll go first.

"A ported sub? With panel speakers? That's a load of bollocks!"

Your turn.

RGibran
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Re: Magnepan MMG and subwoofer


Quote:
looks good, as it is a sealed sub that is designed and implemented by the right guys - who just might know what I'm talking about, when it comes to integrating with a panel speaker.

Those same folks use vented woofer/sub enclosures in many of their hybrid designs as well.

They also use equalization in some of those designs.

The biggest advantage to sealed designs is size, they can be much smaller than vented designs.

That sealed subs are 'faster' than a well designed vented unit is a myth. There are many ways to skin a cat.

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Re: Magnepan MMG and subwoofer

I have the non-recommended list (sorry, had to get the dig in again:) Magnepan 1.6QR. I have integrated a Velodyne SPL1200. It was around $800 several years ago.

I have tried more powerful subs, but they were overpowering, and I just couldn't get a seamless transition.

The Velodyne is perfectly blending with the the Magnepans.

jackfish
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Re: Magnepan MMG and subwoofer

I'm now leaning toward the Rythmik Audio F12G A370-PEQ.

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12G.html
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazine/equipment/0709/rythmik_f12se.htm

Upstream I'm probably going with the Emotiva USP-1 preamp for its bass management to be set for 50 Hz high pass and low pass filters and an Emotiva XPA-2 power amp.

http://www.emotiva.com/usp1.shtm
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/preamplifiers/689-emotiva-usp-1-stereo-preamplifier.html

http://emotiva.com/xpa2.shtm
http://www.affordableaudio.org/EmotivaXPA2.pdf

RGibran
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Re: Magnepan MMG and subwoofer


Quote:
I'm now leaning toward the Rythmik Audio F12G A370-PEQ.

Nice looking package. If you get one in house be sure to let us know your impressions.

dave_b
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Re: Magnepan MMG and subwoofer

I beleieve sealed designs require a larger volume for an equivelant output. It does look like an interesting sub however, plus they offer a 30 day satisfaction gaurantee. I use 2 subs to smooth out the in room bass response in my 3.6R based system . I also use wood risers and mapleshade heavyfeet under the subs and platforms...makes a huge difference for reducing boom and smearing and allows for a more seamless transition to the panels.

jackfish
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Re: Magnepan MMG and subwoofer

dlb, what subs are you using?

I have a small room, 11.5' x 15.75', and one sub should do, just to reinforce the low end and let the MMGs do what they do best.

dave_b
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Re: Magnepan MMG and subwoofer

They are two Def Tech 200TL Prosubs that I stole for about $600/pair...they were mismatched leftovers from my HT supplier. After tweakin the setup and moving to 3.6's I managed to get pretty decent performance out of them. They go down to 18hz wt 500w/ch on tap. If I were in your position i would go for the rythmik's or maybe check out AV123's offerings...they also seem to be quite the deal and have good customer service and product support. FYI, I put brass heavyfeet on my subs and the wood platforms I have them on...a nice way to improve your sub's integration.

jackfish
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Re: Magnepan MMG and subwoofer

I was also looking at a pair of Elemental Designs A3S-250s to sit under the MMGs in kind of a Martin Logan configuration. I don't know how the MMGs would sound raised 15" though.

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Re: Magnepan MMG and subwoofer

What are you using as wood platforms? Something DIY or a product?

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Re: Magnepan MMG and subwoofer

I thought building raised stands for the MMG's was one of the more popular tweaks? Not sure about the height...

dave_b
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Re: Magnepan MMG and subwoofer

DIY oak stained and spiked with brass footers.

Elk
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Re: Magnepan MMG and subwoofer

Why not just put the footers on the bottom of the subs?

dave_b
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Re: Magnepan MMG and subwoofer

Did that first and then lived with it for a while, but decided to try and decouple them even more from the floor...instinct I guess mostly . The result was far better definition, clarity and just overall integration...they simply do not draw attention to themselves anymore .

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Re: Magnepan MMG and subwoofer

greenelec
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Re: Magnepan MMG and subwoofer


Quote:

Quote:
I use a REL Storm w/MMGs and the sound is wonderful. Crossed over at 47hz. The REL is a ported 10" by the way.

This is the internet, so now, apparently, we have to fight or something.

I'll go first.

"A ported sub? With panel speakers? That's a load of bollocks!"

Your turn.

I just said that,"I have MMGs integrated w/ a REL 10" ported sub and it sounds wonderful." You can quote all the theory you want or you can meet me at high noon on main street and
I'll ...

dave_b
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Re: Magnepan MMG and subwoofer

OOH, OOH, do ya think I could jump in and piss somebody off to...please?

jackfish
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Re: Magnepan MMG and subwoofer

I think it is evident that most ported subs on the market do not have the ability to handle the transient integration necessary with magnetic planar/ribbon/quasi-ribbon drivers. However, there appears to be much experience of successful integration of ported and passive radiator subs with them. The Definitive Technology Supercubes are one example. I've heard many positive things about REL subwoofers in this regard and there was even a reviewer of the Magnepan MMGs finding the HSU VTF-2 adequate. Regardless, I'm leaning toward subwoofer implementations exhibiting low Q in sealed, and preferably servo designs. This pretty much means Rythmik and Martin Logan. There may be others.

dave_b
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Re: Magnepan MMG and subwoofer

Let us know what subs work out for you and how they integrate. I use Def Tech subs and found that with some tweaking, experimenting with placement and deciding on the right IC for them, I have no complaints about their integration. More than once I thought about getting newer, better subs but....I'm just too happy as it is

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I'm another Magnepan fan that

I'm another Magnepan fan that has gotten very good results from using a Velodyne sub (mine is non-ported) and you simply cannot tell that the sub is there until the music calls for very low notes. The sub just doesn't slow the panel down or muck up notes coming from the panel.

I have tried some subs with various Maggies (MMG, 1.5 and 1.6's) and could always tell that a sub was on regardless of the music being played. There are several subs on the market from companies like Velodyne, REL, HSU Research and others that I'm sure you'd be very happy with once you have them dialed in. Just make sure that you buy from a dealer that will allow you to return the sub if it does not blend will with the MMG in your room.

Best of luck with your search and enjoy those MMG's.

jackfish
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Its been a year since I

Its been a year since I started this thread. The MMGs are going in to get "Gunned" in February. I've concluded that a saving up for a Rythmik F12G will be my best option.

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MMGs plus Hsu STF-2 sub

I have the Hsu STF-2 subwoofer and am using it with my MMGs, and I think it's a great combination, both sound and price-wise ($350). I use the high-level inputs/outputs, a crossover setting of 50 Hz, and the level at 9 o'clock. Placement makes a lot of difference, in my medium-sized living/dining room area.

By keeping the MMGs full-spectrum, and the crossover point and volume low, the effect is very subtle, i.e. non-existant on much program material, and unless you are listening to pipe-organ music or very bottom bass or synth notes, mostly transient and reverberant information, like the almost subliminal *whump* after a crescendo, that keeps the excitement going. The kickdrum is now made quite distinct from the bass guitar, and from the other end of the house!

If the placement is good, the MMG's wonderful mid-bass articulation is preserved, and the sub is undetectable by location. I'm sure the STF-1 would do the same in a smaller room.

jackfish
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The Rythmik Audio F12 should be here this week.

I'll report on my efforts to integrate it with the Magnestand MMGs.

JoeE SP9
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nice

The Magnestand mod sure gives a very nice looking speaker.

jackfish
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I have had the Rythmik F12 since 12-30-2011 and

it was worth the wait. My system now includes an Emotiva ERC-1, USP-1 and a pair of UPA-1s, a ProJect Xpression III with an Audio Technica AT440MLa, an Akai AT-2600 tuner, a Harman Kardon TD4400 CD transcription cassette deck, Grado Prestige SR80i headphones, Magnestand MMGs and the Rythmik F12 subwoofer. The integration between the loudspeakers and subwoofer is seamless. New pictures to follow.

BillB
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more about the Rhythmik

I've got a F12 on order.  Tell us more about your initial settings and any changes.

jackfish
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I haven't experimented much from the following settings

because it sounds so good.

 

LINE IN

POWER AUTO LIMITER ON

PEQ OFF

PHASE/DELAY 0

CROSSOVER 120

VOLUME 50%

LINE IN LOW PASS AVR/12

RUMBLE FILTER OFF

EXTENSION FILTER FREQ 14

EXTENSION FILTER DAMPING HI

 

I have the F12 connected to the low pass output of the USP-1 with a 50 Hz setting and an RCA splitter into the F12 LINE IN inputs. The Magnestand MMGs are powered by UPA-1 monoblocks fed by the USP-1 high pass outputs also set at 50 Hz. The F12 sounds to be in phase with the 0 setting. The F12 crossover is set at 120Hz to "get out of the way" of the USP-1 bass management. The 14Hz FREQ and HI DAMPING is supposed to be the best setting for music.

 

Over the next several weeks I'll be doing some frequency sweep tests to see if there are any peaks or nulls at my listening position. The results may suggest F12 PEQ and USP-1 bass management adjustments to dial it in.

BillB
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good set up

Interesting that your pre has the low and high pass outputs, cool.  I have 2 sets of outputs on my pre, so will be running one set line level to the sub and the other set to the power amp running the Vandersteens full range.  I figure that will give me at least some of the advantages of more than one sub, since the Vandies go down reasonably low too.

I figure I will keep rumble filter off except ON when playing vinyl.

jackfish
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You can effect low and high pass filters with FMOD 12dB per

octave in line crossovers.

http://store.hlabs.com/pk4/store.pl?view_product=9

http://store.hlabs.com/pk4/store.pl?view_product=10

They are cheap enough to try to see how much they affect the sound.

BillB
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Got it yesterday!

And one thing I have learned is that my overhead light fixture vibrates/rattles like hell when the Rhythmik is putting out clean tight 20 Hz.  That light never rattled with my full range speakers + my other subwoofer.  Wow the F12SE goes deep, comfortably.

BillB
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And my F12SE settings so far are:

LINE IN

POWER AUTO LIMITER OFF

PEQ OFF

PHASE/DELAY 135 degrees

CROSSOVER 80

VOLUME 60% (about 1:00)

LINE IN LOW PASS 50 Hz/24

RUMBLE FILTER OFF (ON with vinyl)

EXTENSION FILTER FREQ 14

EXTENSION FILTER DAMPING Med

I have the F12 connected to the "bypass" set of line outputs from my preamp, while my main speakers are driven full range by the power amp.  Although it's only necessary to run 1 interconnect from the preamp to sub (if I used a Y connector) I run 2 anyway, 'cause more is better (maybe, and certainly can't hurt) to get maximum signal to the sub.

I used an SPL meter and Stereophile's Test CD 2 to record the frequency response at my listening position, at 5 different phase positions.  The 135 degrees phase was just slightly better than other phase positions.  That agreed with my ears as it happened, in this case.

Integration is excellent and the sub position cannot be localized (right now I have it inboard of the right main speaker, on the same plane).  The depth of the bass is unprecedented in my system.  I will be doing further adjustments/testing over time but no rush anymore -- I'm pleased with it right now and listening a LOT.

Highly recommended:  James Blake's self titled album.  It's on my personal favorites of 2011 anyway.  And as it happens, track 5 gives great "room lock" with this subwoofer.

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