VTL and power conditioners previously discussed here: Been There

He's definitely a try it and see type of guy.

Why not just return the Shunyata?

I have trouble understanding how a Shunyata can restrict power; they simply have a MOV (metal oxide varistor) and a single capacitor (for noise suppression) across each power receptacle. That is, there is nothing running in serial with the power.

Weird.

But all that matters is what one hears.

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BTW, there were 3 of us, and we all heard the same thing, so I don't think it's an illusion. Unless it's a collective illusion

You guys had a peyote night without me!

Has the Hydra been run-in?
What 20A Shunyata cable was used to power the Hydra?
What Shunyata cables were used to connect components to the Hydra?
The Hydra 8 has a section for digital was that used for the right equipment?
Any of the above can cause the results you are describing.

I once cut class to listen to DSOM...in the dark. I've never dropped acid, but I imagine it's a lot like Pink Floyd and the iTunes visualizer all at once.

Odd about the Shunyata, though. I've been meaning to try my amplifier straight into the wall versus through my Furman (which is current-limiting). I suspect that the sonic improvement has more to do with my digital components benefiting. I could be wrong.

Collective illusion - There's a political joke in there somewhere, but I'll refrain.

That's very curious. I don't doubt you at all, that's just counter-intuitive to me.

Luke Manley, if I'm correct, was referring to his equipment specifically, yes?

Are you saying you don't care for the Hydra, or are you speaking about all power products in general?

VTL pays a great deal of attention to its power supplies. Thus, they are extremely well regulated, able to address voltage sags, etc. as well as doing a better job of filtering capacitor ripple and removing other rectification nasties.

Contrary to popular belief, it is not easy to get high quality DC from AC power. The basic transition to DC is easy, but obtaining high quality DC is tough. This is why battery powered units can sound better; they enjoy perfect DC.

It is correct that properly designed power supplies do not need a power conditioner. But what is "properly designed"?

The majority of components have a compromised power supply - limited by cost considerations. These will typically sound better if supplied with better quality AC.

Others have spectacular power supplies. For example, Levinson equipment has onboard AC regeneration similar to a PS Audio Power Plant already built in.

VTL also employs wonderful power supplies. Yet, as Mr. Manley recognizes, "Even with its twelve massively filtered, precision regulated power supplies, the 7.5 is sensitive to external power cables and power conditioners."

Luke Manley of VTL uses a Nordost Thor with Valhalla power cables as his reference. As described by Nordost:

"The Thor project has been a joint collaboration between Nordost and UK mains power specialist IsoTek. Thor is an elegant, full rack width, 6-way AC mains power distribution unit featuring sophisticated circuitry for dealing with mains noise and voltage spikes without limiting dynamic headroom."

Sure sounds like a power conditioner to me. If it walks like a duck . . . QUACK!

Bottom line:

1) The output from a CD Player, phono preamp, preamp or amplifier is the mains power supply modulated by a musical signal. The more perfect the incoming mains power, the less distorted the musical output.

2) Whether a specific power conditioner or power regenerator will improve the sound depends on the equipment used and the power coming in to your listening room.

Alex and his cronies heard that the Shunyata hurt the sound. Thus, the Shunyata is not a good choice for this system. Yet, the Shunyata may be great for other systems or for this same system installed elsewhere.

I just wish that "a power supply is a power supply". Then we could all simply use inexpensive switching power supplies - like those in desktop computers - and be done with it.

All interesting posts. Alex- the first thing that struck me was that this is clearly a subjectivist test experience you are siting (in a good way) - and one that shows that looks, name, prestige and the like had no power whatsoever to skew your judgement. The Hydra 8 retails for around $2000 so clearly that did not make anyone "hear" what they didn't want to hear, which is the silly argument I've seen sited many times. "Those cables (or whatever) just sounded good to you because you spent a lot of money on them and they look fancy." Personally I'm a little surprised at the results given how many positive reviews I've read about it, but that's why it's so important to try out a product, no matter how good reviewers think it is, with your system.

Food for thought: Maybe your friend's digital front-end already is on the edge of softening the sound a bit and something in the Hydra 8 exacerbated that? On other setups it could be just the thing to help it. Still another thought could be is that the boxed in sound IS what his front end sounds like, and some noise in the electrical system is pushing forward some of the frequencies in such a way as to make it sound more "open." Here would be the point of an objectivist series of tests to see exactly what is going on.

Anyway- if he doesn't have one already, a dedicated circuit for his audio system is absolutely the best and most cost effective thing one can do to give clean power to gear. I highly recommend it to anyone who is looking for overall system improvement and it's a great way to take away a hard to pin down variable, i.e. power noise.

Good points.

I, also, do not accept the argument that if something is expensive and we hear what we are supposed to. If it were that easy the world would be full of successful companies selling easy to make, good looking, expensive products.

Electrical noise, IM distortion and other baddies can make a system sound like it is more resolving and has more air. I did not think of this as a possible explanation. Good to consider. Well done.

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VTL also employs wonderful power supplies. Yet, as Mr. Manley recognizes, "Even with its twelve massively filtered, precision regulated power supplies, the 7.5 is sensitive to external power cables and power conditioners."

What it comes down to, is that when the diodes in the AC bridge are in conduction mode, any of the given signal reproduction (or any conducting component, for the larger part) transistors are directly connected to the AC coming out of the wall. The place where they are connected, which has little to do (in the direct sense) with transient noise suppression, is in overall transient and micro-transient current fluctuation. One way to say it is: It's a 'smoothness of draw' consideration.

As soon as the given signal transistors deviate from a straight DC current flow situation, or the signal itself that is being reproduced fluctuates or deviates from a straight DC consideration..which means..all of the time...we get a change in the reproduced or handled signal. Thus distortion.

Even some audio designers won't get what I'm saying as I'm not saying it very well - according to how many need it presented. Nevertheless, it's all right there. The complex AC considerations of a Transformer can help in this to some degree, as can CLC filters, due to inductive mass being converted. The old tube guys had it right.

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Good points.

I, also, do not accept the argument that if something is expensive and we hear what we are supposed to. If it were that easy the world would be full of successful companies selling easy to make, good looking, expensive products.

Electrical noise, IM distortion and other baddies can make a system sound like it is more resolving and has more air. I did not think of this as a possible explanation. Good to consider. Well done.

The human ear hears the leading edge of transient waves and the leading edges of micro transients, over time, and with regards to levels between them. Longer transients or tears in peaks, can be heard as emphasized treble or louder 'noise' at the given transient tear frequency.

Long term transient tears at given 'beat' frequencies create a frequency and 'level' to the ear --of the given sound.

We are even sensitive to 0.5-0.25 db differences or even less-between these peaks.

From that point, it is easy to roll down the hill to the logical conclusion that minute changes in current delivery can completely alter the given sonic presentation, balance and emphasis.

From this, comes the idea of 'spacial emphasis', ie huge soundstage, great depth, tinkly highs..stuff I strive for, but in a natural sense, not the stuff we hear some days..that cannot handle high volume levels-and drives you out of the room.

A good sound system should have all of those things, plus the sonority to make your entire body vibrate from the intensity of the transient attack and dynamics, at the same time it has you reaching for the volume to crank it....at the same time it NEVER drives you out of the room with nasties.

A tall order, to say the least.

FYI, Luke came over last night. I too have Nordost Valhalla cabling (interconnects and power) and a Thor, but not because Luke has them. We both obtained them long before we knew each other. Anyway, I do plug my VTL amps into the Thor. Luke doesn't recommend this, but I hear an improvement. I do not hear compression. Then again, the Thor does not work like a standard power conditioner.

I'm going to tell Luke about this thread in case he wishes to respond.

jason victor serinus

Jason, it would be great to get his thoughts on the affects of the power supply on a component's sound, as well as on power conditioners and regenerators.

VTL makes wonderful sounding stuff. Thus, he and his team are doing something right.

Perhaps he shares my enjoyment that Shunyata switched from calling its electromagnetic absorbing component from StarDust to FeSi 1000. Is this an admission that it is BS?

(That Shunyata felt it had to identify the compound in a serious way is a great example of the lack of humor amongst audiophiles. StarDust was wonderfully cute and tongue-in-cheek.)

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Big Shinyata power cables were used. AFAIK, everything was plugged into the right outlets.

The thing is there are special Shunyata cables for digital gear. Another suggestion is to plug in only one of them e.g Verdi then Purcell then Elgar and not the others and see if how much of a difference it makes. You may be able to identify which component does not like the Hydra. You should also ask the guys at Shunyata as to what to connect where with which cable.