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Stephen Scharf
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Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells it for $3500.00

You guys are going to love this....Lexicon took a $500 Oppo BD-83, and quite literally stuffed the entire chassis into a Lexicon skin and front plate and is selling it for $3500.00

There's an in-depth review of it here on Audioholics:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/trans...xicon-outside-1

They did some tear-downs (three IIRC), and despite Lexicon's statements about "performance enhancements" to the otherwise, found that the two units are virtually identical, right down to capacitor values.

This is causing quite a scandal on the Hoffman and AVS forums, deservedly.

To make matters worse, a publication called Home Theater Review did a review of the Lexicon and quite disingenuously stated its performance was better than the Oppo. After a rash of emails, complaints, and no doubt, angry customers, they then wiped the responses to the article locked the article with respect to comments. A classic example of a publication that is a shill for the industry.

http://hometheaterreview.com/lexicon-bd-30-universal-blu-ray-player-revi...

Audioholics summed up their review this way:

"We fully disclosed our findings to Lexicon prior to publishing this article and they still maintain their player has audio and video enhancements over the stock BDP-83. We find this rather insulting given the insurmountable evidence we presented here that indicates otherwise. We also emailed THX our findings and our response is posted on the prior page of this review. So far, there is not much to change our conclusion. This situation saddens us as it alienates us from two major companies in this industry that we otherwise have great admiration towards"

So much for journalistic integrity.

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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i

We already had some discussion about this in the "The Open Bar" - see http://forum.stereophile.com/forum/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=TheOpenBar&Number=80773 . The issue is: how different is the Lexicon from the stock Oppo on which it is based? The answer would seem: hardly at all.

As I wrote in that earlier thread, Kal Rubinson reviews the Lexicon player and discusses its being based on the Oppo in our March issue, due to hit newsstands on early February. He also reviews the SE version of the Oppo in that issue,

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

Stephen Scharf
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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i

Missed the discussion in the open bar.

As for it being based on an Oppo, it IS an Oppo. Read the Audioholics review in detail; they took the two apart and there are virtually no differences, right down to the components. Lexicon took off the external cosmetic covers and fascia of the Oppo and dropped the entire unit into a Lexicon skin.

The Lexicon, er Opp BD-30.

The genuine article:

There is also extensive testing data to show that they are virtually identical from a performance perspective.

Buddha
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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i

Maybe Lexicon dipped the unit in secret special sauce, or exposed it to quantum tunneling quasi bit treatment via a field of some sort - none of that would be outwardly visible.

I bet Lexicon will use the special sauce defense.

I also bet this player would match up well with Red Rose gear.

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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i


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I also bet this player would match up well with Red Rose gear.

That's what I was thinking....Red Rose, er, I mean Dussun (Korsun).

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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i

Those of you that would like to read the comments that were deleted from the Home Theater Review, they are here:

http://stabbingpixies.com/fr_index.cfm

Then click on the HTR transcript link.

Makes interesting reading. Some folks will never admit that the emperor is wearing no clothes...

Stephen Scharf
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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i

Apparently the news is out, and Slashdot has picked it up...

http://hardware.slashdot.org/index2.pl?fhfilter=Lexicon1

It will be interesting to see the Stereophile review.

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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i

The Consumerist has picked up this story and has it under their "Ripoffs" section:

http://consumerist.com/2010/01/company-p...ets-caught.html

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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i

The wires are bent differently.

This has got to be the enhancement.

Kal Rubinson
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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i


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The wires are bent differently.

This has got to be the enhancement.

Wow! How did you guess?

Kal

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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i


Quote:

Quote:
The wires are bent differently.

This has got to be the enhancement.

Wow! How did you guess?

Kal

That sounds like foreshadowing of the March issue.

rvance
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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i

I'm sure Consumer Reports will pick this up and demand a Congressional investigation.

I can't believe how dumb Lexicon was in failing to make any attempt to nominally modify or at least disguise the stock Oppo unit beyond cosmetics.

In commercial/industrial electronics it is a widely accepted, if not predominant, practice to rebadge myriad testing/power/security and computer equipment for resale. There are very few engineering companies that supply the market. And the customer is king. But an industrial consumer is not going to trace component sources to establish value or purchase price.

There is a large contingent of audiophiles who notice these things and Lexicon should have respected that for their own sake, if not for ours.

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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i


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I'm sure Consumer Reports will pick this up and demand a Congressional investigation.

I can't believe how dumb Lexicon was in failing to make any attempt to nominally modify or at least disguise the stock Oppo unit beyond cosmetics.

In commercial/industrial electronics it is a widely accepted, if not predominant, practice to rebadge myriad testing/power/security and computer equipment for resale. There are very few engineering companies that supply the market. And the customer is king. But an industrial consumer is not going to trace component sources to establish value or purchase price.

There is a large contingent of audiophiles who notice these things and Lexicon should have respected that for their own sake, if not for ours.

Good post.

I think I have seen enough "nude" shots of what's actually inside some Hi FI gear that what Lexicon did seems like a step up from some "high end" "manufacturers" have foisted upon the marketplace.

On the plus side, that fancy aluminum face plate may reduce airborne vibration to the point that the tried and true "night and day difference" may be claimed.

A 3 kilodollar faceplate should be fully defensible within our hobby!

rvance
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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i


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A 3 kilodollar faceplate should be fully defensible within our hobby!


Exactly! What's it worth to the average Lexicon customer to NOT have a "down market" Oppo faceplate in their stack? On aesthetics alone you can justify it. The nouveau riche are so shallow. Old money wouldn't give a shit. They'd just have Jeeves call in a chamber ensemble for some tunes after dinner.

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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i

I dont understand what the fuss is about.

Stereophile has for years been perfectly happy to promote $500 worth of components in a fancy box for $10,000. It is due to the expertise required to come up with a suitable scam line to justify the $10k.

If you dig deeper into the Lexicon and Mark Levinson line you will find loads of similarities to Crown, Harmon Kardon etc as they are all owned by HMG and a lot of the stuff is built on the same production line.

Badge engineering is the norm in this industry, Lexicon's crime here is not what they did but in getting caught.

Hopefully this is the beginning of a new era where real value based on a units intrinsic qualities becomes the driving factor, all the bullshit marketing and magazine fluffing stops.

Alan

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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i


Quote:
Hopefully this is the beginning of a new era where real value based on a units intrinsic qualities becomes the driving factor, all the bullshit marketing and magazine fluffing stops.


Followed shortly thereafter by world peace, the end of corruption in politics, and ethical behavior of the high-end audio press.

KBK
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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i

Well, I will say that when a car goes by...a 1983 Camaro with rusted out fenderwells... and the blown/screaming 3-way 6x9 speakers in the back distorting out some Motorhead or AC/DC, or whatever..and a friend remarks that 'this looser is polluting life', I 'tut-tut' them.

I explain to the friend that if this person did not exist to hold one end of the scale down, to define the limits, so to speak, then where and how would we know what the end of the given trough was? We need that guy so we can identify a limit, and in this particular case, we express it with disdain, and associate it with a cesspool or similar. The bottom, we say.

Thank you for expressing your viewpoint, Alan.

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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i

Your welcome

After all i love Motorhead and AC/DC

The difference between us is that i can see what a cesspool of ripoffs the hifi world as become, you cannot see the cesspool because you are fully submerged in it and it has become your world.

Enjoy your view, ill enjoy mine

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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i

This will be the perfect chance for Stereophile to show themselves to be the hard-hitting, consumer-oriented publication they really are. Since Audioholics has already done the hard work and made themselves out to be the bad guys, Stereophile can now come in with its own tough review. Then when someone complains about Stereophile always writing "smiley-faced" reviews, JA can reach deep into the almost-empty bag of accurate representations and say, "Here it is, an example that we don't always kiss the ass of the manufacturers!", and belittle any would-be conspiracy theorists who would dare suggest they are simply industry toadies. This counterexample will tide them over for the next ten years I'm sure.

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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i


Quote:
This will be the perfect chance for Stereophile to show themselves to be the hard-hitting, consumer-oriented publication they really are. Since Audioholics has already done the hard work and made themselves out to be the bad guys, Stereophile can now come in with its own tough review. Then when someone complains about Stereophile always writing "smiley-faced" reviews, JA can reach deep into the almost-empty bag of accurate representations and say, "Here it is, an example that we don't always kiss the ass of the manufacturers!", and belittle any would-be conspiracy theorists who would dare suggest they are simply industry toadies. This counterexample will tide them over for the next ten years I'm sure.

I find it ironic that you don't realize that the fact that the Stereophile team have allowed you and Alan to chat such shit on their forums repeatedly, is clear evidence of their credibility...

Other forums would have banned you both and deleted all your posts a long time ago...

Anyway, enjoy your conspiracy theories... hopefully this Lexicon scandal will keep all you trolls well fed for years to come...

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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i

Thats the difference between us, you think this is a scandal, I think its just the common practice being exposed.

I agree that JA is very forgiving and does indeed let people like me spout our shit even though he could shut us down.

Is that what you want ? a forum with no opinions except ass kissers ? a forum where nothing is ever challenged ?

Please feel free to join the line of lemmings, ill be the free thinking asshole thank you

Alan

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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i


Quote:
Thats the difference between us, you think this is a scandal, I think its just the common practice being exposed.

I agree that JA is very forgiving and does indeed let people like me spout our shit even though he could shut us down.

Is that what you want ? a forum with no opinions except ass kissers ? a forum where nothing is ever challenged ?

Please feel free to join the line of lemmings, ill be the free thinking asshole thank you

Alan

No. The difference between us is that you are in the extremists camp who think all of High End is just scams and ripoffs... I'm very much middle ground... So I know that there are many rip-offs, whether it's as blatant as what lexicon pulled or essentially just replacing cheaper materials with much more expensive ones that don't add anything to sound, and charging a small fortune for the final product... I accept that there are reviewers on some sites/magazines who couldn't tell the difference between their asshole and a hole in the ground, but pretend to be experts on Hi-Fi... However, I also know that there are honest persons making quality products and charging a fair price... and that there are reviewers who take their jobs seriously...

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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i


Quote:
Since Audioholics has already done the hard work and made themselves out to be the bad guys, Stereophile can now come in with its own tough review.


You're forgetting that Kal's article was already done and submitted before this issue came to light on the web.

While Stereophile may not be "first to market," it appears it was "first to invent;" that is, it is only a function of the relative slowness of print that Stereophile did not break the story first.

As you feel Stereophile is suspect, in your mind what is the most informative, most legitimate source of hi-fi information?

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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i


Quote:

Quote:
Since Audioholics has already done the hard work and made themselves out to be the bad guys, Stereophile can now come in with its own tough review.


You're forgetting that Kal's article was already done and submitted before this issue came to light on the web.

While Stereophile may not be "first to market," it appears it was "first to invent;" that is, it is only a function of the relative slowness of print that Stereophile did not break the story first.

As you feel Stereophile is suspect, in your mind what is the most informative, most legitimate source of hi-fi information?

The problem with reminding conspiracy theorists about Kal's article is that since it hasn't been published yet, they will refuse to believe that it was written first anyway...

Or if they do believe, they'll claim that he originally wrote a rave about the Lex, but then changed it once the scandal broke... That's what conspiracy theorists do... Trying to have a serious debate with them is a waste of time...

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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i


Quote:

The problem with reminding conspiracy theorists about Kal's article is that since it hasn't been published yet, they will refuse to believe that it was written first anyway...

Or if they do believe, they'll claim that he originally wrote a rave about the Lex, but then changed it once the scandal broke... That's what conspiracy theorists do... Trying to have a serious debate with them is a waste of time...

Careful, that's a big bit of self created windmill tilting you've indulged in, there.

You've made a broad statement of your personal idea of what truth may be toward us as a form of known gospel, which is that anyone who sees a conspiracy, anywhere, changes data that they might encounter in order to believe some sort of lie they are telling themselves.

You have just indulged in the same-said behaviour. Careful.

Balance can be difficult as it forces our own psychology to be correct...and for that, we can (depends on the given individual and subject) ceaselessly beat ourselves out of proper balance, in our analysis, due to underlying emotional bias that colors our judgement and handling of data.

Ajani
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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i


Quote:

Quote:

The problem with reminding conspiracy theorists about Kal's article is that since it hasn't been published yet, they will refuse to believe that it was written first anyway...

Or if they do believe, they'll claim that he originally wrote a rave about the Lex, but then changed it once the scandal broke... That's what conspiracy theorists do... Trying to have a serious debate with them is a waste of time...

Careful, that's a big bit of self created windmill tilting you've indulged in, there.

You've made a broad statement of your personal idea of what truth may be toward us as a form of known gospel, which is that anyone who sees a conspiracy, anywhere, changes data that they might encounter in order to believe some sort of lie they are telling themselves.

You have just indulged in the same-said behaviour. Careful.

Balance can be difficult as it forces our own psychology to be correct...and for that, we can (depends on the given individual and subject) ceaselessly beat ourselves out of proper balance, in our analysis, due to underlying emotional bias that colors our judgement and handling of data.

Not really... you can argue that my point should have been started with the standard disclaimer of "IMO" or even that it is a bit harsh... but the basics remain the same...

Do you believe that persons who have such a cynical view of Stereophile and high end in general, are going to be moved in anyway by the point that Kal's review was written before the story broke on Audioholics?

Kal Rubinson
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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i


Quote:
Do you believe that persons who have such a cynical view of Stereophile and high end in general, are going to be moved in anyway by the point that Kal's review was written before the story broke on Audioholics?

Why waste breath or bandwidth on people whose bias destroys their ration?

Kal

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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i


Quote:
Do you believe that persons who have such a cynical view of Stereophile and high end in general, are going to be moved in anyway by the point that Kal's review was written before the story broke on Audioholics?

Nope.

But I am dying to read what he wrote; he is both perceptive and eloquent.

Coincidentally I have the Oppo on order. I haven't played with Blu-Ray and I like that it is a universal player with digital outs.

Maybe Lexicon will sell me one of their cool faceplates and chassis . . . cheap.

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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i


Quote:
Missed the discussion in the open bar.

As for it being based on an Oppo, it IS an Oppo. Read the Audioholics review in detail; they took the two apart and there are virtually no differences, right down to the components. Lexicon took off the external cosmetic covers and fascia of the Oppo and dropped the entire unit into a Lexicon skin.

The Lexicon, er Opp BD-30.

The genuine article:

There is also extensive testing data to show that they are virtually identical from a performance perspective.

Well worth the price..they used the weird magic record demagnetizer on it...

rvance
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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i


Quote:

Quote:
This will be the perfect chance for Stereophile to show themselves to be the hard-hitting, consumer-oriented publication they really are. Since Audioholics has already done the hard work and made themselves out to be the bad guys, Stereophile can now come in with its own tough review. Then when someone complains about Stereophile always writing "smiley-faced" reviews, JA can reach deep into the almost-empty bag of accurate representations and say, "Here it is, an example that we don't always kiss the ass of the manufacturers!", and belittle any would-be conspiracy theorists who would dare suggest they are simply industry toadies. This counterexample will tide them over for the next ten years I'm sure.

I find it ironic that you don't realize that the fact that the Stereophile team have allowed you and Alan to chat such shit on their forums repeatedly, is clear evidence of their credibility...

Other forums would have banned you both and deleted all your posts a long time ago...

Anyway, enjoy your conspiracy theories... hopefully this Lexicon scandal will keep all you trolls well fed for years to come...

Excellent point, Ajani. Can you imagine the self-appointed critics that troll these forums having any FUN in this hobby...or in anything they do? Is it not obvious they go through life bitching and moaning about everything being too expensive or of lower value than their sacred money merits? While pinching their pennies they also choke the life out of any balanced perspective that would allow them to escape the victimhood they've created for themselves. Let the s.o.b.'s suffer!

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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i

Interesting how anyone who is not following the party line is deemed unworthy.

I have had lots of great discussions about a lot of topics on here without any confrontation whatsoever.

Just because i have very strong feelings about the lack of value in high end equipment and will defend my thoughts aggressively it does not make me a troll or unworthy. I get equally sick and tired of arrogant self righteous pompous assholes who think they have the right to judge everyone just because they drink the Kool aid. You have the right to pay $20,000 for a few feet of Kens wire, I have the right to say its a total rip off.

If you do not want any negative comments on the forums please feel free to have me banned, i believe it was Stephen who introduced the policy though of anyone asking for a person to be banned needs to accept the same punishment.

Just for your info I am not a member of any other audio related forums, nor have i been banned from any.

Alan

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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i

Hell, with all this pub Lexicon is getting, get ready for a 6,000 dollar faceplate upgrade!

Heck, maybe they can invade the territory occupied by DarTzeel and sell broken Oppo's for 40k!

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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i


Quote:
Just for your info I am not a memeber of any other audio related forums, not have i been banned from any.

Alan

I'm glad we have you all to ourselves!

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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i

Get ready for a run on the Goldmund Eidos 20 BD Blu-Ray Player.

Lexicon is to Oppo as Goldmund is to...Pioneer?

(To give props to Goldmund, your 16,900 dineros buys you a new transformer.)

Lots of nuggets gonna turn up as these players get the full gyno exam from the hobby.

This Lexicon story may have legs.

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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i


Quote:
Interesting how anyone who is not following the party line is deemed unworthy.

I have had lots of great discussions about a lot of topics on here without any confrontation whatsoever.

Just because i have very strong feelings about the lack of value in high end equipment and will defend my thoughts aggressively it does not make me a troll or unworthy. I get equally sick and tired of arrogant self righteous pompous assholes who think they have the right to judge everyone just because they drink the Kool aid. You have the right to pay $20,000 for a few feet of Kens wire, I have the right to say its a total rip off.

If you do not want any negative comments on the forums please feel free to have me banned, i believe it was Stephen who introduced the policy though of anyone asking for a person to be banned needs to accept the same punishment.

Just for your info I am not a memeber of any other audio related forums, not have i been banned from any.

Alan

Actually, your illiteracy and aggressive behaviour in these areas where you are illiterate.. only serves to show how little you do know or understand. Not everything expensive is a rip-off and your idea of what is a rip-off and what is not is very stilted, and you show considerable lack of knowledge about how markets work and how people in business manage to put food on the table. And I have the right to say you are illiterate on and in these areas and I have on more than one occasion. Each time this has been clearly illustrated to you, you come back in on the same line again and again.

Which shows that you are probably incapable of learning very much in this world. We have been through this before but it s clear that if you attempted to fully run a business in the same way people try to fly planes, you'd crash the damn thing before it got off the ground.

As how this may relate to this given device here, in this thread, I'm not speaking on it or about it. Mmmmk?

Remember, I be a manufacturer. One of the rules that I made for myself, is that I can elevate or compliment a manufacturer only if I'm not doing anyone else any harm, and I will NOT denigrate any company or any product.

So, I'm not talking about, nor have I ever spoken about the Lexicon at all, you might notice. I'm only speaking on your ongoing lack of mental balance on these issues of what high end audio is.

There is something in there that you cannot see or understand, is likely the deal. And I can't help you there, you have to fix your noggin all by yourself.

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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i


Quote:
Not everything expensive is a rip-off...

And the inverse.

Not everything expensive represents justifiable value.

The Lexicon disc player comes to mind.

KBK
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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i


Quote:

Quote:
Not everything expensive is a rip-off...

And the inverse.

Not everything expensive represents justifiable value.

The Lexicon disc player comes to mind.

No Comment!

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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i

Its a funny thing.

As im sure you know from the forum I design large very complicated industrial audio systems for a living. These are centered around Cobranet and the wave of new products are based on Dante and Ethernet AVB.

You seem convinced i cannot learn yet on a daily basis i have to make value decisions on equipment. Its the same old argument from your side, because im calling out the industry you have to defend it because otherwise you go out of business.

I do not believe that all high emd hifi is a rip off, there are a lot of companies who offer good value for the dollar. Companies like Mcintosh, NAD, Project, Cambridge Audio, Arcam, Odyssey are just a few who spring to mind who generally represent good value. The rip off artists are firms like Nordost, Wilson, Musical Fidelity ( titan amp ) LARS etc who charge stupid amounts of money. There is no way on this planet you can argue that a speaker cable is WORTH $20,000, yes im sure there are people who will pay it and if they are rich enough to pamper their egos then go for it but do not treat us as dumb enough to actually try and justify it, the material cost of a lot of high end hifi is 2-5% of the selling price at best. My favourite example being the LARS amp for $100,000 which was so proud of using a special output transformer that was actually available for a few bucks if you had access to the right industry sources !!

So I do fully understand the business model of high end audio companies like yours, your right its not like flying a plane, its more like a magician's show all smoke and mirrors !!!

Alan

Ajani
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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i


Quote:
Its a funny thing.

As im sure you know from the forum I design large very complicated industrial audio systems for a living. These are centered around Cobranet and the wave of new products are based on Dante and Ethernet AVB.

You seem convinced i cannot learn yet on a daily basis i have to make value decisions on equipment. Its the same old argument from your side, because im calling out the industry you have to defend it because otherwise you go out of business.

I do not believe that all high emd hifi is a rip off, there are a lot of companies who offer good value for the dollar. Companies like Mcintosh, NAD, Project, Cambridge Audio, Arcam, Odyssey are just a few who spring to mind who generally represent good value. The rip off artists are firms like Nordost, Wilson, Musical Fidelity ( titan amp ) LARS etc who charge stupid amounts of money. There is no way on this planet you can argue that a speaker cable is WORTH $20,000, yes im sure there are people who will pay it and if they are rich enough to pamper their egos then go for it but do not treat us as dumb enough to actually try and justify it, the material cost of a lot of high end hifi is 2-5% of the selling price at best. My favourite example being the LARS amp for $100,000 which was so proud of using a special output transformer that was actually available for a few bucks if you had access to the right industry sources !!

So I do fully understand the business model of high end audio companies like yours, your right its not like flying a plane, its more like a magician's show all smoke and mirrors !!!

Alan

If someone purchased a $20K Cable and it sounded exactly the same as a $50 Monster Cable, would you feel sorry for them?

I wouldn't. Anyone with $20K to spend on cables, clearly has no financial worries... So if they got 'ripped off', then so what? How does it affect you? I'm sure they have lots more money where that $20K came from...

Truth is that our hobby is for the most part luxury (like watches, clothing, cars, etc)... Who needs a $3.5K Blu-Ray Player? While I'll condemn what Lexicon did, I'm sure that anyone who bought such a player was not worrying about how he was going to put the next meal on the table for his family....

We're not talking about life saving medicine, where overcharging will result in people dying... we're discussing money spent on a hobby... There is no reason to be in anyway upset that products sell for ridiculous amounts....

As much as I love my stereo, if it was stolen or destroyed I wouldn't die... Eventually I'd just buy a new one... It's a hobby... If I bought an expensive amp and found out later that it was junk, I'd be upset... but it's not the end of the world... I chose to spend that money on recreation...

Who am I to tell a millionaire that he shouldn't spend $20K on Cables and $100K on a Lars Amplifier? Why should it matter to me?

I just can't see why ultra-expensive gear aimed at the very wealthy should in anyway bother you or anyone for that matter...

Elk
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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i


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Who am I to tell a millionaire that he shouldn't spend $20K on Cables and $100K on a Lars Amplifier? Why should it matter to me?

I just can't see why ultra-expensive gear aimed at the very wealthy should in anyway bother you or anyone for that matter...

I like that there are expensive state of the art products available, whether it is audio, cars or other toys.

They are fun to contemplate, to try and there can be benefits to the rest of us as the cutting edge trickles down.

However, if the latest Ferrari is actually a re-badged Mustang I would want to know and so would any reasonable buyer.

While it doesn't directly affect me, what Lexicon has done appears to be a fraud on the marketplace. This does affect all of us indirectly as the integrity of sellers and buyers is important in niche markets. If none of us know what we are actually buying we will stop buying.

On the other hand,if the buyer knows he is buying a hand-made watch merely because it is gorgeous and an example of craftsmanship even though a cheap digital will keep better time there is no fraud, merely a choice.

jazzfan
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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i

Just a suggestion:

How about Stereophile break with tradition and publish Kal's Lexicon on their web site BEFORE the March issue comes out? Isn't this kind of controversy exactly what the Internet is best at resolving? Sure a pre-publication of Kal's review might hurt sales of the march issue but it would go a long, long way towards shoring up Stereophile's image within the high end audio community.

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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i


Quote:

Quote:
Who am I to tell a millionaire that he shouldn't spend $20K on Cables and $100K on a Lars Amplifier? Why should it matter to me?

I just can't see why ultra-expensive gear aimed at the very wealthy should in anyway bother you or anyone for that matter...

I like that there are expensive state of the art products available, whether it is audio, cars or other toys.

They are fun to contemplate, to try and there can be benefits to the rest of us as the cutting edge trickles down.

However, if the latest Ferrari is actually a re-badged Mustang I would want to know and so would any reasonable buyer.

While it doesn't directly affect me, what Lexicon has done appears to be a fraud on the marketplace. This does affect all of us indirectly as the integrity of sellers and buyers is important in niche markets. If none of us know what we are actually buying we will stop buying.

On the other hand,if the buyer knows he is buying a hand-made watch merely because it is gorgeous and an example of craftsmanship even though a cheap digital will keep better time there is no fraud, merely a choice.

I'm loving the idea:

People open up a Rolex and find a Swatch.

Look inside an Audi TT and find a Beetle.

I can picture a trip along a New York sidewalk:

"Hey, buddy, wanna buy a 'Rolex?' (wink wink) Ten bucks."

"No, thanks, got any 'Lexicon' digital playback gear?" (wink, wink wink.)

"No, we only forge upmarket, not down."

KBK
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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i


Quote:
Its a funny thing.

You seem convinced i cannot learn yet on a daily basis i have to make value decisions on equipment. Its the same old argument from your side, because im calling out the industry you have to defend it because otherwise you go out of business.

I do not believe that all high emd hifi is a rip off, there are a lot of companies who offer good value for the dollar. Companies like Mcintosh, NAD, Project, Cambridge Audio, Arcam, Odyssey are just a few who spring to mind who generally represent good value. The rip off artists are firms like Nordost, Wilson, Musical Fidelity ( titan amp ) LARS etc who charge stupid amounts of money. There is no way on this planet you can argue that a speaker cable is WORTH $20,000, yes im sure there are people who will pay it and if they are rich enough to pamper their egos then go for it but do not treat us as dumb enough to actually try and justify it, the material cost of a lot of high end hifi is 2-5% of the selling price at best. My favourite example being the LARS amp for $100,000 which was so proud of using a special output transformer that was actually available for a few bucks if you had access to the right industry sources !!
Alan

Uh huh. And the difference beween a Yugo and a Maserati is about 1000-700 pounds of Metal, sand, and plastic polymers.

And on the open market, that is about $500. Maybe $1500.

This appears to be the basis of your argument, every time.

You might imagine that such a position, when it comes to your repeated attacking of High End audio...tends to mystify most thinking people.

TheAnt
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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i


Quote:

Elk said: ....If the latest Ferrari is actually a re-badged Mustang I would want to know and so would any reasonable buyer.

On the other hand,if the buyer knows he is buying a hand-made watch merely because it is gorgeous and an example of craftsmanship even though a cheap digital will keep better time there is no fraud, merely a choice.

Well said, and this should have been the basis for this discussion in the first place.

I'm not a millionaire, or even close. The Oppo and Lexicon players are however in the price range of what I sometimes spend on home electronics. So I have followed this thread with interest.

KBK
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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i

Aanta, I like the avatar. It makes me think of the Pink Floyd album cover for 'The Wall', but the robotic version.

TheAnt
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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i


Quote:
Aanta, I like the avatar. It makes me think of the Pink Floyd album cover for 'The Wall', but the robotic version.

Thanks. Any such similarity never crossed my mind.
I rather picked it to show what I look like when I hear some audio gear that really gives me that 'geee whiz' feeling.

Elk
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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i


Quote:
"No, thanks, got any 'Lexicon' digital playback gear?" (wink, wink wink.)

"No, we only forge upmarket, not down."

Buddha
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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i

Our hobby is definitely unique.

If Ferrari released a Yaris with rebadging for 200K, I wonder how many sports car aficionados would potentially leap to its defense declaring that Ferrari must have done something magical to the Toyota to make it 'better.'

Hmmm, wait a minute...didn't Ferrari already do that with a 3,500 dollar table radio?

Oh!

Wow, That 3,500 dollar price point must have been researched within the industry as being some sort of "gullibility threshold."

Quite a pricing coincidence, eh?

(At least Ferrari left the 'Meridian' badge on the radio.)

Ajani
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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i


Quote:
Our hobby is definitely unique.

If Ferrari released a Yaris with rebadging for 200K, I wonder how many sports car aficionados would potentially leap to its defense declaring that Ferrari must have done something magical to the Toyota to make it 'better.'

Hmmm, wait a minute...didn't Ferrari already do that with a 3,500 dollar table radio?

Oh!

Wow, That 3,500 dollar price point must have been researched within the industry as being some sort of "gullibility threshold."

Quite a pricing coincidence, eh?

(At least Ferrari left the 'Meridian' badge on the radio.)

Where is anyone defending Lexicon in our hobby? As far as I see, all the threads and posts on this scandal have condemed Lexicon...

clarets2
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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i

I gotta congratulate the Oppo marketing team....so you thought there products were value before this.....

Is there a financial as well as a transport connection between Lexicon and Oppo?

Ajani
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Re: Lexicons stuffs a $500 Oppo BD-83 into a chassis and sells i


Quote:

Quote:
Who am I to tell a millionaire that he shouldn't spend $20K on Cables and $100K on a Lars Amplifier? Why should it matter to me?

I just can't see why ultra-expensive gear aimed at the very wealthy should in anyway bother you or anyone for that matter...

I like that there are expensive state of the art products available, whether it is audio, cars or other toys.

They are fun to contemplate, to try and there can be benefits to the rest of us as the cutting edge trickles down.

However, if the latest Ferrari is actually a re-badged Mustang I would want to know and so would any reasonable buyer.

While it doesn't directly affect me, what Lexicon has done appears to be a fraud on the marketplace. This does affect all of us indirectly as the integrity of sellers and buyers is important in niche markets. If none of us know what we are actually buying we will stop buying.

On the other hand,if the buyer knows he is buying a hand-made watch merely because it is gorgeous and an example of craftsmanship even though a cheap digital will keep better time there is no fraud, merely a choice.

Sadly (for me anyway) my initial long winded response was eaten by the net...

So here goes the short version:

1) I'm not in anyway condoning what Lexicon did...

2) This scandal will not break the Hi-Fi industry, just as scandals among Lawyers, Doctors and Accountants have not killed those professions..

3) Persons who think all High End is a ripoff will continue to do so... Persons who think spending more money will always give better performance will continue to think so... Persons in the middle (like me) will continue to be on the alert for products that give us the best value for our money, and be skeptical of those we think won't give us that value...

4) Value is relative to the individual... So for me, a $100K pair of speakers will never be good value for money, even if it perfectly recreates the sound of a live event... as I'd rather buy a lifetime worth of concert tickets with that money...But someone else with $100K to spend would respectfully disagree with my opinion on value... which is his right... So who am I to tell him that he shouldn't buy a $100K pair of speakers? And who am I to tell the manufacturer that they should not produce those speakers? How does it affect me?

Hopefully I've made my original point more clear now...

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