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March 1, 2009 - 12:25pm
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Let's see if we can help newbees -Recommended system <$5000
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Wait until ncdrawl sees this. I can't wait for the fireworks!
Why would I be provoked by that post? the problems come , in my opinion, when one states that "a minimum of X dollars has to be spent to get good sound" or "x component is always going to sound better than Y component because X is a dedicated "audiophile" product and Y is a mass market product" or "the more money one spends the better sound one is going to get"
I have no problem with setting a hypothetical budget and listing possible components within that budget..
now if he had said one HAD to spend at least 5 grand to get good sound, id start calling BS.
I usually tell people that I can set them up with a system that won't stop me from visiting for $2K or so. That's the kind of numbers Circuit City rack system purchasers can handle. Anything much higher than that and most people get a vacant look and change the subject of the conversation. These figures are for something that I could listen to. In my experience folks spending more than that $2K figure have some idea what they want. Sometimes I think their choices are truly awful. However, it's their money and their ears.
I've been thinking about just such a system myself lately....but it has to have a turntable instead of a CD player (CDs...yuck)
Jolida JD801A $1550
Era Design 4 monitors $700
Era Design sub $800
Rega Planar 3 $895
Dynavector 10x5 cartridge $395
Anti-Cables $80 for 8 ft pair
Audio Advisor Black Mamba II IC's $119/1 meter; 2 pair: $238
Pro-Ject Phono Box $159
Okay, okay, if you insist on a CD player: Sony Playstation 1 SPCH-101 ~$35
Grand total: $4,852
My recommendation:
Ayre C7 CD player- $3000 (class A...RC)
NAD C372- - $1000 (class B...RC)
Monitor Audio Silver RS6 Speakers- $1000 (class B)
I believe in having a front end so good that you will have something to work with to start with; garbage in...garbage out. No amplifier or speaker can make up for a poor quality source. As a matter of fact, if you have a poor quality source component, a great amplifier and speaker will make it sound just exactly as bad as it is!
Speakers - FJ Minis ($1295 new)
Integrated Amp - Pathos Classic One MKIII ($1600 on Audiogon)
CDP - Opera Consonance 120 Linear (~$1000 new)
Got $1K left for audio rack and cables... or, another option, just for fun, if you like full floorstanders:
Speakers: Vandersteen 2ceII ($2300 new?)
Integrated amp: Primare I30 ($1500 on Audiogon)
CDP: Primare CD31 ($1200 on Audiogon)
Gorgeous!
A really fine well thought out answer.
But....there's no turntable...
Yes, he left a terrific upgrade path...with no wastage of the original gear!
Buddha, Steven Scharf brings up a good point. As I listen to Szell's Mahler 4th on a '60's vintage Epic LP, I wonder whether CD's were EVER really necessary.
But, that aside, I will take your post seriously. A post responding to another post.
Hello! You need both. You need good source components. GIGO is true. But only up to a point. Nothing is that simple. GIGO may be true, but BIGO (Beauty in, Garbage Out) is also true. No matter how wonderful your source components are, a bad speaker-amplifier-room match will kill the deal.
These sorts of arguments make for wonderfully arcing lobs of separatist audio turds. But, the truth is, you can't have one without the other. You need good source components, but they can't reveal their goodness without honest speakers and the transparency to let their virtues pass through unsullied and the power to drive them.
And, I guess we can't even mention the need for appropriate cables to strap the whole mess together. Or some kind of rack to keep the whole schmear from vibrating all the abstract virtues into sonic hell. Can't we just put all this shit into some spatial limbo, and not worry about how the physical necessities of sitting things down (things that hurt when you drop 'em on your foot) on a real floor just might make a little DIFFERENCE, since sound IS vibration, or the excitation of whatever good AND evil throbs your walls?
It couldn't be the fucking SYSTEM, after all, that counts, right? I mean, it HAS to be "source components" VERSUS speakers, right?
Fuck. I won't even mention chickens and eggs, or somebody will start an argument.
Happy tunes, whereEVER you start. And, next thing you know, money will get involved.
Sheesh.
You are absolutely right, except that one has to start somewhere if one is starting out.
My take on this is simply that if you are going to mostly listen to CD's, then starting with a really good CD player is the place to put the BULK of the money TO START WITH, because there is a lot greater sound quality loss by going with a cheaper CD player than is lost by keeping the cost fairly modest on the speakers and amplifier. I think one can do fairly well for around $1000 each on the amp and speakers, if one chooses wisely, and the Recommended Components list tends to bear me out, I think.
Go back to my specific recommendations, and you will see no garbage at all; just that the CD player is arguably the highest in quality; the speakers and amplifier get very high marks too!
That, obviously, is just my value judgement.
When I was starting out 30 years ago, I put fairly big bucks into Polk RTA 12 monitor speakers; their top-of-the line big boys at the time ($1200..?..not sure). In any case, the turntable and amp I was using were not cutting it, and I was too dumb to realize that (Gee...these speakers sounded SO great in the store...WTF is the matter!!??)...lol.
Looking back, my turntable was a fairly good one, and so was my cartridge, so my amp was almost surely the real culprit. It was a Harmon-Kardon Award Series 50-watt tube integrated from the mid-60s that used crap coupling capacitors and had power output transformers a little bigger than a wall wart...lol. Oops.
When I bought my first NAD 3020 a few years later, things sounded a LOT better, but it was a little under-powered for those big speakers and a big room, so there was another problem to work out.
So anyway, having made that mistake a couple of times over the past 30 years, I advise people not to make that same mistake. That's my sad story...lol.
Harman/Kardon 3490 or Outlaw RR2150
http://www.stereophile.com/features/0407recommended/index.html
http://www.stereophile.com/integratedamps/306outlaw/index.html
Onkyo DX-7555
http://www.stereophile.com/cdplayers/108onk/
Heresy III
http://www.stereophile.com/news/11338/index.html
http://www.testfreaks.com/hifi-speakers/klipsch-heresy-iii/
About $1,900 total.
I figured most folks who already listen to Mahler's 4th on a vintage Epic LP wouldn't exactly be "newbies."
I also left out people who need an extra tonearm and cartridge to dedicate to mono 78's.
Your point is 100% true, of course. I was just thinking a newbie could grow into vinyl.
Clifton, I miss the pleasure of your company. Your posts have been great lately.
For a person who will be upgrading for a few years until he gets one of the best possible systems, this is an awsome starting point. Great suggestion.
Only if you want to buy a good system for $5000 and get done with it, I would suggest a less pricier cd player (around $1000 like the Marantz 8003) and a better speaker (around $2000 like the Vandersteen 2CE) and leave the $1000 for accessories or get a TT set up : Rega P2/ RegaP3-24 used (~700), with a nice phono stage like the Bellari VP129.
I agree a lesser priced CD players and more investment in speakers is the way to go.
Holy crap, somebody really scored over at Audiogon: the FJ Mini's that I mentioned in this thread ($1295 MSRP) sold for $350.
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1240949134&/FJ-Mini-Monitor
....in the case of the Szell/Mahler, yes; the CD remastering has smoother highs and more audible bass than the LP ever did, in my experience. What a great performance, in any format. Anybody who thinks Szell was "cold" in his performances ought to hear this one.
For some newbees a different sort of system might be good. So I'd propose this system:
PC - ~ $ 1000 max
including big hard drive and big backup drive
(build with parts from newegg.com for best results)
PCI soundcard - ESI Juli@ for example
J. River med center 13 player - $ 40
Win XP
integrated amp - $ 1000 max
NAD or Rotel
PSB or Paradigm speakers - ~ $ 2000 max for 2
Now that leaves ~ $ 1000 for an upgrade to an external DAC.
Bill
On the surface all that makes some kind of digital sense. Let me sound a dire warning not though. My friend who is an audio & IT technician is being driven insane by customers who have lost their entire music collection through music server and computer hard disk crashes.
For anyone brave enough to take on the risks involved in such an approach, they should add a Cambridge Audio DACMagic D/A converter if they want to experience music rather than noise.
Did you note that I included a backup drive in the PC part of the system? The required quality is not bravery; it is common sense. Do you keep regular backups of your computer's contents?
You appear to be recommending the Cambridge DAC as the only path to good sound. I would not agree; there are plenty of alternatives at different price levels.
Bill
Rich, if we really wanted (with a straight face) to advise any "newbie" on how to spend 5 large, we just might want to figure out, first, how much he/she loves music, how he/she listens ("mood" music? Ugh. Yet, that is what some folks crave. Serious sit-down, for an hour or more? "Background," while doing the daily chores? -- hey! life goes on...). And so on.
My own subjective answer would be, "find a concert, somewhere, anywhere, within driving distance, and get a good seat and listen -- preferably, find a concert with a big symphonic orchestra playing big music."
What was your response? Blah? No reason to spend more than $500-$800. All a-tingle? Oops. NOW, you gonna have to make some serious choices. Listen around. Learn about your ears, your heart, your household (lucky you, if you live alone), and your threshold for uncertainty, when it comes to dealing with the INCREDIBLE variety of software quality, as you feed your system.
Start with neutral. As neutral as things get. Amplifiers, speakers, and source components.
What is "neutral"? Sorry. That is your call. See paragraph 2. If you have no reference, than NOBODY here can help you find one.
Experts (what a yuck!) can only help you if you know what you want to hear. If you don't know what you want to hear, then listen to everything you can get within earshot of, for about a year. Then, give us your thoughts.
NOBODY can pick your system (whether it costs $500, $5000, $50,000, or $500,000) except you. Do you love music? Assuming a "yes," I would say that is a good start.
Go forth and listen. Abstract advice does NOT work in this area of life. The concrete reality of sound poundin' into your listening room dictates all. If you do not yet know what you love, when you listen to music, then find out. And let us know. We got your back. But YOU have to start the process.
Happy tunes.
Clifton:
You're reading way too much into this. Since a lot of newbees request information on recommended components I just figured 1: they like music and 2: they're ready to make the commitment. The next step would be for the them to research the recommendations and then go listen to them at their hi-fi dealer with the type of music they listen to. My goal was to both let people know that you can build a great system for under $5K and to share recommendations.
Yes. Did you notice that the nongs who are driving my tech friend insane with their crashed hard disks wouldn't have used their common sense?
I back up my three Macs contents every day on external hard disk, a server at a remote location and seriously important stuff on CD-R's that are stored in a fire proof safe. I hope that alleviates your worries about my data security. I have no music stored on computer being addicted to the packaging & liner notes that come with LP's & CD's. I know, that's queer but so am I.
Only? Don't know where you got that idea. Maybe I should have written 'they COULD add a Cambridge Audio DACMagic' It really is the best you can get for the money and to my ears the equal & often better than status symbol, overpriced audio jewelry selling for silly money. And no, I don't use one. I have a stand alone CD player I'm blissfully happy with.
Some people should not be using PCs to store audio.
Creating safe backups for audio files will be fairly painless for many people. Buy a CD, rip it to audio files, get the file names and basic tags roughly right and archive the files. Much less demanding than backing up material that is always changing.
Bill