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February 27, 2015 - 9:16am
#1
Lame forum
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hi Steve
I was very surprised myself to find how dead this forum and TAS are compared to others. I also noticed when looking at the views that the year before I came here the views were about half as many compared to me arriving and posting. That's dead when you consider this is Stereophile. It's easy to see what we need here but the forum has to be willing to let this happen.
It reminds me of the scene where Wyatt Earp walks into the bar at the oriental
http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=scene+from+the+oriental+tombstone&FORM=VIRE1#view=detail&mid=FFC51189940DDAD65E10FFC51189940DDAD65E10
It's been this way since 2008 I hear.
If you have the main poster on stereophile not understanding what stereo is or how it works, and allowed to disrupt the place at will, not much is going to happen except for the dregs. All the high class will leave.
Bottom line is, you can't have a music forum without people "doing" stereo, and the guys here seem scared to death to compare systems and sound. Oh, they can talk alot but when it comes to listening the talkers disappear faster than bugs at the first sign of raid.
They know how to post stupid pictures through, gotta give em that.
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
You cannot be serious.
I know you are but what am I?
Whatever.
Where did you get that from?
Are you off your meds?
Your mother wears combat boots.
Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
If you want to find out what "LAME" is really like, go over to the AVS forums, where half of the morons insist that "all amplifiers sound the same" whether they are $40 Class T amplifiers or $8000 Mark Levinson amplifiers, and every CD player made in the last 30 years sounds the same as every other.
I could go on and on about the jerks over there. There is no law against ignorance, but when someone is clueless AND insists on agressively ramming his horse manure down the throat of the people who are more knowledgeable, it gets tiresome. The inmates are mostly in charge of the asylum over there.
For some folks the glass is half empty.
Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
It rapidly became like this after the forum software and layout was changed from adequate to surprisingly bad and even worse than the current poor offering. I don't think the software they switched to was even designed for forums but, presumably, was used elsewhere on the site for some other purpose. Would be interesting to know who made the decision and if they even noticed or cared about the result.
From my take on the issue of dead. If you have a forum called Stereophile, which has the reputation of being at least somewhat in the know, and someone of knowledge comes up here to talk about "tape recording and playback" for example, and reads this thread http://www.stereophile.com/content/remember-cassettes , chances are he's not coming back or might visit my site, but as far as the info shared, what keeps a guy coming back?
I see people coming up, getting an opinion on components and some system match ups (good or bad) and music sharing, but for the guy who pictures Stereophile as this great source of audio info, it's a little disappointing.
Part of this is this undertone of negativity. The other part is, as with Stereophile giving people recommended classes of their opinions from lower to higher, there's no such structure here on the forum. People who barely know how to tie their audio shoes give advice on stereo, some not even having a stereo or knowing what stereo even means.
For the guy who wants to embrace this hobby, there's very little in the way of listening experience being shared. There's plenty of people claiming to have experience, but very little listening on the table. This forum even has "designers" coming up saying "you don't have to have a system to talk about stereo".
If your a serious listener and read this sitting in front of your system, your not going to take this forum serious, and certainly not going to use this forum as a tool to move forward.
Your not going to sit there with your speakers pulled out, room voiced, electric tricked out and components tweaked and listen to a designer who uses a Sony Portable Cassette Player as their only system of reference, to tell you how and where to place the crickets on Abbey Road. You've got music courses teaching this recording in universities, studying each part note by note, and on here you can't even get people to listen to it. Half of the guys here can't even get the crickets to play like at the studio to study, but they will tell you it's because they have revealing systems.
So lame? yeah, pretty lame, but it doesn't have to be. If the Stereophile forum would start talking about stereo and recordings in stereo, these pages would fill up in no time. Look how many people join. We need to give them something to enjoy, and levels of listening and do things that are meaningful for the hobby of listening.
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
You sure can talk some shit, mask man. More self serving, factually incorrect obsessive behavior from the car salesman of pro audio. Did you ever stop to consider it is YOUR behavior that's keeping them away in droves? I have posted on numerous occasions that I am using two portable systems, one analog and one digital. The good news for you is they are both what you mistakenly refer to as Low Mass Systems. See the irony? If you can't keep up with the conversation or your memory is acting up again do me a favor and refrain from posting. In fact why don't you take a short vacation from all this obsessing?
Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
...see much from the basement, do you?
I am not saying either of you are to blame for the state of the forum and I am not passing judgement on your respective (and considerable) knowledge but your back and forth showing up in so many threads is silly and is certainly not helping matters around here.
Im so glad to hear we're not to blame for anything. You know, it wouldn't kill you to start a thread of your own or participate in one of the MANY threads here. No reason why Michael Green and I should do all the heavy lifting. You don't want to be a useless lump like ChrisS, do you?
Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
Hi fourpobs
"I am not saying either of you are to blame for the state of the forum and I am not passing judgement on your respective (and considerable) knowledge but your back and forth showing up in so many threads is silly and is certainly not helping matters around here."
I agree 100%, and have been trying to figure out how to avoid these spins and still give the info.
Good news is the readership on TuneLand has gone up and people from here who are sick of flames and trolling have been showing up on our forum, or contacting us by email and calls.
My take on things is this.
First you have to confront the flames and as time goes on they will either disappear or the readers will find other places to visit and share. If you notice, as of late I don't show up on many of geoff's threads and this will continue on my part until I barely show up on any of them at all. I would think geoff would consider doing the same toward my threads, but time will tell.
But here's one thing that you should take notice of as well fourpobs. Visit http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/ and see that there are "no" flames or trolls, and we go far deeper into the act of listening.
When a forum focuses on the act of music you find harmony and sharing. When not you find disfunction.
Yes, I have fallen into the troll trap here a few times but with each event comes a host of people who not only visit my site but also thank me for my involvement. I do hope that people in reading me see the message before the trolling begins but if this doesn't happen I'm not sure I can do much about that other than leave. So, I have to continue to decide every day what is best for the industry.
Look at it this way, you've had this same trolling here since 2008, if it takes a year or two to get rid of it, it's worth it. Than again maybe all will be gone like on TAS, who knows. As for me, I'm just thrilled to a part of this industry and hobby and plan to share until I'm deaf. Some won't like this but many will and have.
More to the point though, I hope your personal listening has never been better and so good that you share the news of great listening everywhere, which is what this hobby should always be about. The most fun industry and the greatest hobby there is.
one more thing though
If on my forum anyone ever posted a thread called "lame forum", not only would I freak out, but I would also be sure to do something about it. If you have a forum that allows flames, it's the same as inviting them. And that to me is the silly part.
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
Until you experience heavy moderation. Face it, you can't control what someone else thinks or says. You can only control how you react or respond. And I'm all for that.
I belong to some very political forums and on one in particular, we have extremely light moderation with only a few things that will get you bammed and it's by far the most fun, interesting and attracts only extremely bright people with thick skins and great senses of humor.
Another forum that I used to frequent was very actively moderated and had a list of rules a mile long. It eventually died from the inability to enforce rules equally until everyone was either bammed or pissed that someone else was not bammed for violating the same rules that somebody else got bammed for.
Like I said, you can't do anything about what other people think or say unless you hold the keys to the door. And that usually just gets you a conclave of group thinking drones. Kinda like MSNBC when you think about it.
I have a music professor friend who says "you can't make harmony if your out of tune".
Some people live to keep things out of tune and others have peace and success with what they do and who they are because they're not looking for a fight.
It's not that hard to see when someone is being an internet troll, and internet trolling is bad period! It serves no one, not even themselves.
Keep in mind Catch, this is not a political forum. It's not a sports forum, nor political, fashion, grooming dogs, playing frizbee, cooking, war, or chess. This is a forum about Stereo-philes, and according to Stereophile's reviewers and founder, the search for better sound. Flames and music don't mix. Maybe flames and politics does, but trying to paint the picture that making music is anything like MSNBC vs FOX wars is not going to bring Joe listener to a place of better sound, peace and harmony. What flames do in this hobby is keep the success in music playback from happening.
What is there about music that requires us to have a thick skin? I see absolutely no benefit in trolling on a forum about harmonic structures, timbre, the meaning of an artist, the betterment of sonic levels. I see every benefit in a "group" of music lovers helping each other get closer to their musical goals.
I've never met one successful music lover needing flames to survive. Flames and trolling anywhere are a result of one not having the answers about the topic trying to make themselves look like they do. I go to a successful listeners house and we sit there going through the music we want to listen to. I go to an unsuccessful listeners house and listen to them talk about the music they can't play, and they have no desire to learn how. The successful listeners house is full of praise, unsuccessful full of flames, angry and jealousy, doubt and always having something to say about something broke in their system or something broke in the recording.
The successful listener can't wait to share their system with the world and their music, and the unsuccessful listener believes if it sounds bad on their system it's sounds bad period.
There's a wide gap between opinions and flames. Opinions can always be explored with reason and doing, flames are done within the guidelines of heresay, lies, spins and bad intentions. How can you tell when someone is flaming or giving an opinion on an audio site. Opinion is an invitation to try something, flaming is saying it can't be done.
It comes down to this. Those who keep the flames alive because they are unsuccessful with something in their own lives vs those who wish to do things productive inviting others to join in. If someone on an audio site can't share their system, sound, successes you have to ask "why are they even here". Why come to something as positive as a music forum and turn it into a forum that looks like a political forum? I certainly have no desire to fight over music, or do anything other than play it successfully. There's a huge difference between someone who turns on a system and someone who plays the music, and the guy who knows how to play the music can play just about anything with a great deal realism. And what's to flame about that?
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
I am a noob. A wannabe audiophile. I come to these forums to learn from the wealth of information and interesting opinions. Contributors like Geoff and Michael have already provided me with more insight and fuel for thought than I can reciprocate. And yes - you 2 in particular do a lot of heavy lifting. I just hate to see you guys fighting. It detracts from your contributions. You don't owe me anything - just throwing my opinion into the mix. Thanks for all you do.
All-
there are many, many "Audio" related forums. While there could be a little more activity here, for me, it is not heavily censored.
I believe designers merits speak for themselves. And speaking for myself, I have absolutely no problem with someone trying geoff's or May's goodies. In fact I started two threads for them to share their technologies and thoughts.
and again for the record here is May's site
http://pwbelectronics.co.uk
here is geoff's
www.machinadynamica.com
and here is ours
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
As far as I am concerned, tuning is about having fun exploring the options. I've invited both geoff and May to my place for listening and would love to reference recordings with them. I feel the same way about any listener who has a different view of the music vs another.
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
I've been supprised at how much private mail I have recieved over this thread.
Comparing the posters on this thread and the mail, it seems to me that many people want to get to the listening and tweaking without the negative Vibes. They've enjoyed my threads and info, but get turned off when the, as they say "flames move in". Of course this is the feedback I'm getting from your members, and others here may be getting other feedback, or none-at-all, I don't know.
Two members said they liked ChrisS approach when the flames happen. Basically ChrisS puts up a repeated statement that puts the flamer in check and leaves it at that. I'm thinking that I should use this same approach.
The fact is I don't like or feel the need to argue with anyone here, but I do feel the need to put people in check that are coming here for the purpose of a fight. I feel the readers here know where I'm coming from concerning the trolling, and I for sure know they are digging the posts Tunees do, so as I have been trying to do for a while now, I'm going to try the approach of a statement and go about my business of teaching, turning people on to TuneLand and being a part of building a positive community here.
I hope those of you who read this feel the same commitment to building Stereophile for the good of the hobby and the enjoyment of music. Those who wish to be grumpy old men, and making flame remarks where there is no need to hopefully will find a new home somewhere else or learn how to handle being ignored.
As always I appreciate the feedback that listeners have shared with me, and I will do my best from here on out not to feed the flames.
thank you
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
What a load of crap. You never miss an opportunity for self righteous self promoting bather. It makes perfect sense you would like ChrisS' approach as he has nothing to say except the same tired personal attacks. In fact, reviewing his record he's never said anything on this forum except some idiotic garbage, as they say in France.
I certainly understand why you might prefer to have a little lap dog do your dirty work for you as you have enough issues of your own, you know, what with the shakey memory and everything.
Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
...that I only respond to your posts? Trying to figure out how you think makes you a great "personality" study! The pattern of what you say and how you say things follows mostly a "drunkard's walk" pattern.
"Fascinating"...
Full disclosure, professionally I run a practice in a large global consulting firm that focuses on digital (web, mobile, etc.) solutions.
For the person who asked earlier in the thread, Stereophile uses Drupal, a free, open source content management and community solution. It is one of the most widely deployed solutions of its kind, in use by Economist.com, DoctoOz.com and even WhiteHouse.gov and Tesla. But it's easier to get bad results with it than good. I imagine the change you mention was an upgrade from a previous version and Stereophile chose to discard any customisations they'd made and just go with OOTB.
The community site has a few challenges:
* People have noted the private message feature was taken away. There is no way to subscribe to a thread. The search is Drupal's OOTB basic. The Comment editor HTML widget seems to hang regularly, I suspect related to the ad server.
* There is no reputation function:
- Stereophile lets anyone post. And they can post any nonsense they want. The editorial board does designate qualified members.
- The site lacks any functionality to allow the community to grant reputation. There is no "like" button. Or "promote" method. You can't see a person's profile to gauge if they're qualified (e.g., an electrical engineer) or biased (e.g., an equipment manufacturer, service provider, etc.).
* Without a reputation system, there's no way to be "promoted" from a "newbie" to a "golden-eared god." (A lot of knowledgeable) People will leave for communities that grant status. Threads are more likely to fall into nonsense and name calling.
* Gamification is any kind of mechanism that rewards positive behavior. Usually frequency of use, number of posts (that get high reputation scores vs. disruptive posts), etc., are part of gamification strategies. And you would typically include these "leaderboard" concept in promoting newbies to golden-eared gods. This forum has no gamificaiton strategy.
anyone looking for a much more active and interesting forum, go to Polkaudioforums. But be ready for a fight if you start posting anything confrontational. A lot of excellent advice for audiophiles. And the subject matter actually makes sense. They talk about REAL sound quality concerning AVR's, speakers, amps,etc.
David, you caution against posting anything confrontational on Polk Audio. Let's see if I can guess what you mean by "confrontational," "something that makes sense'" and REAL sound quality. Aren't those really referring to folks that are set in their ways and stuck in the beliefs of the 1990s? By the way, Polk Audio is not the only audio forum that reacts badly to strangers, to new ideas, to ideas from the future. Check out Hydrogen Audio sometime or even such warhorses as DIY audio and Audio Kharma. Sometimes it's a function of the powers that be, such as on DIY Audio. On many audiophile forums you will likely find a hard core of very conservative "locals" that will make sure no outsiders get through without a fight. Jihad! Lol
Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
Goeff, yes, you're right. you have to have a thick skin on these forums. And not take any of it too seriously.
Kinda ruins it for the music lover, in that case.
To me it looks like a bunch of unsuccessful want-a-be engineers, who really don't have an understanding of the hobby at all. Who in their right mind wants to be unhappy when it comes to music? And anyone with the goal of making it an unhappy place has little respect for the art.
I guess their loss has been my gain, but still sad to see.
michael green
MGA/RoomTune
http://tuneland.techno-zone.net/
Just mention someone who is stuck in his ways and watch who pops up.
;-)
As my old NASA boss Bob Beatty was fond of saying, never get behind anyone 100 percent.
Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica