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Buddha
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"I don't believe in global warming; therefore, creation religious teaching is valid."

Thanks for fllling us in on your pretzel logic.

Can't dally, I am off to audition FNH's new 9mm!

Have you ever tried the 5.7 series? I have always wanted to but have never had the opportunity.

Getting over to one of the probably 90+% of things we agree on....I'm not sure!

The club I belong to has about a hundred different handguns that we all go in and shoot with, and I ask what up and they start teaching me about which models are which...then I go shoot. (I like H&K alot.)

I am just now trying to figure out what to actually buy as my own.

My wife likes 9mm (she is very precise, as good as me) and the Sig 226E is her favorite. The club doesn't have the new FNX-9.

We have some FNH .45 caliber pistols with the rails and the normal sites, but I'm not sure of the model number.

We are going to move a little rural, me settling in next month, and her and the kids moving in June, so it's time to buy stuff. (It's actually legal to go in the back yard and shoot! We won't, but it feels amusing to be able to sit on your deck and shoot if ya want to.)

I honestly never expect it to be needed at home, but....we are gonna own a gun or two anyway.

What we are looking at - as we actually buy - is...

1) Shotgun, with my wife's work associate helping us pick the model. he is an aficionado. (Las Vegas actually has a publically funded outdoor gun 'resort' with a shotgun range we will go do demos on. Nevada is great that way.)

2) Handgun, likely a 9mm with rails for a light and red/green "dot."

3) I'd like my own 1911 because I'm interested now in shooting the same gun on a regular basis instead of playing with a new one each week.

I looked up Kimber, but they are more of a "Caliburn turntable" gun. Too pricey and a little too ornate.

A buddy has an Ed Wesson that is pretty cool and I shoot well with it.

If you have a favorite 1911, I'd be happy to listen to suggestions! I think they are fascinating.

It would be fun to start a gun thread!

If you ever hit Vegas or Chico, CA....we will go shoot together, man. (And argue about the first ammendment, but not the second!)

Getting back to the fighting about schools....

My kids attend Presbyterian school, and I have no problem with putting faith in the context of life and science, but it's my job as a parent to handle the faith particluars. The kids' school is full on with evolution in science as a well proven theory, and they leave the faith part to "chapel."

I see most of this "creationism in lieu of science" the teabags promote as a big cop out for intellectual laziness on the part of people who want Jesus at school, but have never bothered to actually read and consider the damn book they want taught from or learn the scientific theory their zombie-Jesus-masters tell them to oppose.

You don't trust the schools to be skilled enough to teach kids how to tell real science from not, I don't trust the schools not to be lazy and just fall back on unblinking creationism.

I have no problem with both concepts so long as creationism is not painted up to look like it has any science involved. We could chat about the parallels between Genesis and the science time line of the Universe....just please don't hit me with the Lipton version of "Creationism is science!"

Cheers.

j_j
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I suspect the atheist Communists with their 100 million dead over the last century have those dangerous evil religious folk beat by a pretty big margin.

Oh, lookie, the old red-baiting slur on atheists.

Don't you have anything new to offer?

Now let's talk the same proportion of dead people to population due to the dark ages, which was pretty much entirely caused by the church.

Sorry, Stalin wanted to BE god, that's hardly atheist, after all, and the CHURCH is responsible for much more than any atheist you can name.

Buddha
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Atheists and Jews tops in religious knowledge. Atheists top out the ratings.

It's 'cause 99+% of Christians never read the damn user's manual! (or, it seems, the Constitution... ....)

For a group who doesn't believe much in science or genetics, they sure are comfortable with their "inherited" religious beliefs.

I admire a good person of any faith, or lack thereof...but don't much trust them folks who say they "believe like my parents told me."

Buddha
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Two out of three Americans believe gay people commit suicide at least partly because of messages coming out of churches and other places of worship.

Nice work.

Now, scurry off yelling "Atheist Soviet genocide!" so you can feel better about yourselves.

JSBach
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Two out of three Americans believe gay people commit suicide at least partly because of messages coming out of churches and other places of worship.Nice work.

This is a complex issue requiring a calm analysis of the relevance, or more importantly, the irrelevance of Old Testament teachings in relation to Christ's apparently more liberal outlook on such matters.
As to various denominations and the effect their preaching has had on homosexual suicide that would be hard to accurately quantity - although I suspect there are more than a few psychiatrists out there who'd be willing to do so. However, the Baptist movement 'Endeavor'', that claims to 'cure' homosexuality through prayer, is sitting on some very interesting statistics. This charming branch of Christianity places homosexual men, with essentially Christian faith, in residential isolation. In these environments they're forbidden to listen to modern music, watch television or have unsupervised contact with other males. Having been convinced their homosexuality is the work of Satan, and having failed to suppress their sexual preferences, they become severely depressed and often commit suicide.
Once when nursing a man dying from AIDS I had the 'pleasure' of stumbling across three of this group's members haranguing the dying man outside his bedroom window. " Repent your sins and find salvation" 'Sodomites shall burn in hell' and other charming chants were being offered up. What these fools didn't know was the man they were serenading on his death bed was a heterosexual who'd acquired HIV from a blood transfusion after a car accident, as did his wife.
I dealt with the situation in a somewhat brutal and physical manner which I shan't go into here.
The obverse of this was my experience of many Christian, middle aged women, who rolled up their sleeves and volunteered to nurse HIV patients without ever questioning their sexuality. Discussion with these people invariably revealed a commitment to the simple moral truths of the New Testament and a rejection of large parts of the Old.
Returning to the central theme of this thread though we must accept that the behavior of individual Christians is an all together different animal from the behavior or organized religious institutions once they manage to influence or become the government of the day. This later manifestation is where we should draw a very firm line in the sand and tell those of all faiths not to cross it. Whenever they do, to put it in their language, Satan does indeed come to rule.
Tis a great shame that the church fathers have paid little head to St Matthew CH:22 V:21 over the centuries.

Lamont Sanford
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Two out of three Americans are fucking idiots.

Lamont Sanford
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This is a complex issue requiring a calm analysis of the relevance, or more importantly, the irrelevance of Old Testament teachings in relation to Christ's apparently more liberal outlook on such matters.

[British accent] Oh, shut up!

JSBach
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This is a complex issue requiring a calm analysis of the relevance, or more importantly, the irrelevance of Old Testament teachings in relation to Christ's apparently more liberal outlook on such matters.

[British accent] Oh, shut up!


You could benefit yourself by learning the Queen's English.
Besides, ad hominem argument is pointless.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Lamont Sanford
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Right Jim,

And you have to consider that everytime a natural disaster hits anywhere on the planet, those evil religious organizations are always on the scene (usually first) giving out water bottles, food, medicine, clothing, etc;

I just can't imagine the audacity.

Mark

If we discussed gays like we do Christians somebody would complain and the Admin would shut it down. We pick and choose are human rights topics. Like two out of three Americans believe gays feed the world, win wars, and eat their young.

JSBach
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Two out of three Americans are fucking idiots.


True, but with slight variations, that ratio is endemic across this blighted planet.

Buddha
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Let me help with that post you made:


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Right Jim,

And you have to consider that everytime a natural disaster hits anywhere on the planet, those evil religious organizations are always on the TV screen (usually first) blaming the calamity on the alleged moral failings of the disaster victims and pointing out God has smitten another heathen because we allow gay people to vote.

I just can't imagine the audacity.

You know I'm also right.

mark evans
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Let me help with that post you made:


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And you have to consider that everytime a natural disaster hits anywhere on the planet, those evil religious organizations are always on the TV screen (usually first)

You know I'm also right.

Your 1 example of Pat Robertson's idiotic remark toward Haiti and such.. is kinda weak.

So, its one huge, orchestrated natural disaster photo op created by the, (now watch this....... secular media outlets around the world, that are in collusion with those evil religious organizations just to get some air time on national television. Man! that must take some mega man- hours to achieve. Demo teams, production crews, pyrotecnics, casting crews, lighting, etc..

Kinda like, wag the dog eh? now thats rich.

Yeah, when we assisted in Katrina it was a bitch getting the production teams to arrive on schedule.

Thats too funny

Mark

JIMV
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Relativist moral arguments don't hold but what makes you imagine Soviet Communism wasn't a form of state religion?
Besides, if the Medieval Church had the technology, centralized communications and control of a Stalinist regime I'm sure they would have managed to slaughter an equal percentage of the population, especially seeing God was on their side.

That is sort of having it both ways...evil religions massacre poor innocent folk and evil secular atheist societies murder even more and BOTH are because of religion..I suspect under this rationale serial killers are also murdering for religious reason.

JIMV
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Budda, don't have a 1911 favorite as all I have ever owned have been colts. I prefer revolvers for reliability. J-frames for personal defense and Ruger for larger weapons....22's are Taurus and Walther (highy recommended). I now tend to keep myself limited to 3 calibers....38, .32 and .22

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Relativist moral arguments don't hold but what makes you imagine Soviet Communism wasn't a form of state religion?
Besides, if the Medieval Church had the technology, centralized communications and control of a Stalinist regime I'm sure they would have managed to slaughter an equal percentage of the population, especially seeing God was on their side.

That is sort of having it both ways...evil religions massacre poor innocent folk and evil secular atheist societies murder even more and BOTH are because of religion..I suspect under this rationale serial killers are also murdering for religious reason.


The central issue here is human nature and it's vulnerability to mass hallucination and thought control from both organized religion and secular power structures. Underlying this is the terrifying suggestion that God created man in his image. If so we're in big trouble.
"I am the man that hath seen affliction by the rod of his wrath.
He hath led me, and brought me into darkness, but not into light.
Surely against me is he turned; he turneth his hand against me all day."
Lamentations Ch:3 V:1-3

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Budda, don't have a 1911 favorite as all I have ever owned have been colts. I prefer revolvers for reliability. J-frames for personal defense and Ruger for larger weapons....22's are Taurus and Walther (highy recommended). I now tend to keep myself limited to 3 calibers....38, .32 and .22


Have you any idea how insane such bland discussions, devoid of any moral perspective, appear to those outside your armed to the teeth and violent culture?

Lamont Sanford
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Budda, don't have a 1911 favorite as all I have ever owned have been colts. I prefer revolvers for reliability. J-frames for personal defense and Ruger for larger weapons....22's are Taurus and Walther (highy recommended). I now tend to keep myself limited to 3 calibers....38, .32 and .22


Have you any idea how insane such bland discussions, devoid of any moral perspective, appear to those outside your armed to the teeth and violent culture?

Remington .308 Model 40 SSA
Remington 870 12 ga. Police
Savage Scout .308
Sako Finnfire Varmint .22lr
Savage BV Tacticool .22lr
Savage Rizini 12 ga.
Beretta 92 9mm
Beretta Storm 9mm
Smith & Wesson .38 snub nose

JIMV
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Budda, don't have a 1911 favorite as all I have ever owned have been colts. I prefer revolvers for reliability. J-frames for personal defense and Ruger for larger weapons....22's are Taurus and Walther (highy recommended). I now tend to keep myself limited to 3 calibers....38, .32 and .22


Have you any idea how insane such bland discussions, devoid of any moral perspective, appear to those outside your armed to the teeth and violent culture?

I find it particularly satisfying to post to such topics safe in the knowledge that the far left can do nothing at all to disarm me...It is even better when the fellow complaining is located outside of the USA and has no personal knowledge of such freedoms.

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Budda, don't have a 1911 favorite as all I have ever owned have been colts. I prefer revolvers for reliability. J-frames for personal defense and Ruger for larger weapons....22's are Taurus and Walther (highy recommended). I now tend to keep myself limited to 3 calibers....38, .32 and .22


Have you any idea how insane such bland discussions, devoid of any moral perspective, appear to those outside your armed to the teeth and violent culture?

I find it particularly satisfying to post to such topics safe in the knowledge that the far left can do nothing at all to disarm me...It is even better when the fellow complaining is located outside of the USA and has no personal knowledge of such freedoms.


Given the homicide rate in the US of A I suggest your idea of freedom is perverted.

mark evans
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Given the homicide rate in the US of A I suggest your idea of freedom is perverted.

Who's committing the homicides? Criminals or law abiding citizens?

Common sense:
Gun laws have no affect on the lawless, only the law abiding.

Gun laws a non-sensical.

There is truth to this statement:
"When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns."

Or a more humourous approach:
If guns kill people, then spoons and forks are making Rosie O'Donnell Fat.

Mark

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Given the homicide rate in the US of A I suggest your idea of freedom is perverted.

Given Australia's rising violent crime rate and our decades long fall in the same statistics...well, I choose freedom.

Buddha
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I land solidly with JIMV on this issue.

If you map gun deaths and percentage of the populace who own guns....there is a powerful statistical correlation showing that gun deaths decline with increases in percentage of the population who own guns.

Also, areas considered to have the most "lax" concealed carry certification also show fewer incidences of gun related crimes.

So, "armed to the teeth," as Ms. Mordentroge calls it would actually correlate with lower gun violence rates.

The bummer with that stat is that it almost exactly parallels a given area's "whiteness." So, I'll leave it to the left to credit socioeconomic factors such as whiteness for lower gun death rates and to the right for crediting gun ownership rates.

Gun deaths:

For 2005...10,100 homicides were committed using firearms in the United States. (75% were via handguns fired two times or less...yet many states ban high capacity clips, so called assault rifles, etc....kinda odd.)

40% of those deaths were of males age 24 and under.

75% of all homicide victims age 21 and younger in the city of Boston had a prior criminal record. In Philadelphia, the percentage of those killed in gun homicides that had prior criminal records increased from 73% in 1985 to 93% in 1996. In Richmond, Virginia, the risk of gunshot injury is 22 times higher for those males involved with crime.

We may yap alot about how dangerous America is, but if someone is a non-criminal aged 25 or over...low risk.

Actually, perhaps we end up safer with criminals mostly shooting other criminals.

Looking at all ages: the gang on gang gun homicide rate is 1,000 times higher than the U.S. homicide rate. Excellent.

Again, as you start to parse out who's getting shot, the majority seem to be people who, as we say out west, 'needed shootin.'

Another factoid: 20% of gun related deaths occur at the hands of the po-lice.

Again, we see fewer and fewer remaining gun deaths of non-criminals. I'll leave it to the left wing to say that me stating that the police are shooting criminals is not proof that the victims are all criminals. (I happen to trust the cops.)

Of all incidents where a gun was brandished for self-defense, victims shot at the offender only 28% of the time.

Gun owners seem to exercise pretty good judgment....and even the smallest gun has plenty of stopping power when looking at the 72% of the time it is never fired in these situations.

Cheers.

JSBach
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Lamont Sanford
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Nice burn

Buddha
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http://www.amazon.com/How-Lie-Statistics...1779&sr=1-1

Then it's all just your opinion, which boils down to "who gives a shit what you think?"

Lamont Sanford
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Yeah, baby! Hit the fucker again!

JSBach
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Then it's all just your opinion, which boils down to "who gives a shit what you think?"

In reality I'm fascinated by the gun lobby's thinking, bizarre and irrational as it may be. As with the US right tis a very peculiar animal, the likes of which few other countries can 'boast' of.

JIMV
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Then it's all just your opinion, which boils down to "who gives a shit what you think?"

In reality I'm fascinated by the gun lobby's thinking, bizarre and irrational as it may be. As with the US right tis a very peculiar animal, the likes of which few other countries can 'boast' of.

Few other countries are free, aside from free to obey. It is hard to miss a freedom one has never experienced.

The absolute fact remains...where the number of guns in my society has doubled over the last two decades the number of violent crimes has been cut in half...The countries that have gun bans cannot say the same.

mark evans
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[quoteIn reality I'm fascinated by the gun lobby's thinking, bizarre and irrational as it may be. As with the US right tis a very peculiar animal, the likes of which few other countries can 'boast' of.

England is a great example... whom the which banned handguns in 1997 and the crime rate skyrocketed 40% according to BBC news.

Of course, the law abiding citizens complied with the law whereas the criminals simply ignored the law. I guess thats what makes them 'criminals' eh?

As a matter of fact, Sonny 'the bull" Gravano, henchman for notorious mafia godfather John Gotti was quoted as saying the mafioso's celebrated when the Brady Bill was passed.

Gun laws are non-sensical.

Buddha
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The countries that have gun bans cannot say the same.

Well, maybe they will start looking at it our way once their murder rates rise by five fold and catch up with us gun loving Americaners!

Australia, about one fifth our intentional homicide rate.

15 times that of Japan.

We should admit to being a country with a gun fetish, as well, but our Constitution built that carnage into our sacred documents.

JIMV
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Buddha...you have to look at trends...Our homicide rate by gun has fallen to a bit more than 8000...That fall is almost half of the 1980's rate.

The countries that lecture us on the issue are going in the opposite direction...If one notes violent crime the trend is worse.

One is more than 2 times more likely to be involved in a hot burglary in the UK then the USA (Hot as in the owners are home, sort of like a home invasion here)...The bad guys simply do not fear the homeowner...

How can folk with long term trends of higher violent crime tut tut and chide us for our falling rates...It appears we are doing something right and them wrong.

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