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linden518
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"Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)

So I started to read the Miles Davis "Kind of Blue" megabox review with keen interest, because I wanted to know if the included LP was good enough of a justification for me to splurge on the box. But, surprise, no mention of how the vinyl sounded at all!!! (Or did I just read the review too quickly?) Just that it's blue & gimmicky, which is an obvious point! Can we get a considered, non-snarky comment on the LP, too, please, since it's a big part of the box that's under review? Thanks.

Michael Fremer
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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)


Quote:
So I started to read the Miles Davis "Kind of Blue" megabox review with keen interest, because I wanted to know if the included LP was good enough of a justification for me to splurge on the box....

The color may be gimmicky but it doesn't negatively affect sonics. In fact, it probably improves the sound because the black dye otherwise used can contain magnetizable metallic impurities, which is why demagnetizing black vinyl has such a profound sonic effect!

The blue version was mastered from the 3 track original tape at Sterling Sound and folded down to two tracks very carefully under the supervision of Sony/Legacy's Steve Berkowitz. So the sound should be quite good--if you like the sound of the Neumann lathe. Not everyone does but that's what Kevin Gray uses at AcousTech, so if you like those records (and everyone does)....the only problem is the pressing quality. And the pressing quality is not good. There's noisy "non-fill" at the beginning of most copies and that's a shame. It's a shame it was pressed (I believe) at United in Nashville instead of at a place that cares enough or is competent enough to do consistently good work...MF

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)

Other than the obviously cynical attempt to squeeze more dollars out of us poor Kind of Blue fans, I would like to see how this vinyl compares, as that clear colored vinyl has never impressed me as a product.

The characteristics seem different to me.

I'll be very interested in seeing what people think.

Other than actual material curiosity, how many more friggin' times are we going to offered new and exciting versions of this damn album?

I figure that if KOB has sold 3 million copies, it's all accounted for by 50,000 freaking audiophile suckers for remixes.

Picture of Miles Davis' accountant - - - - - >

linden518
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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)

Thanks, MF. I think I'd rather hold onto my dollars to pitch in a bit more to purchase the Thelonius Monk Complete Riverside or something, then...

Can I infer from your statement that those folks over at Classic Records are onto something with their Clarity Vinyl pressings? Curious as to how those Ellinton/Armstrong 45s sound...

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)


Quote:

Quote:
So I started to read the Miles Davis "Kind of Blue" megabox review with keen interest, because I wanted to know if the included LP was good enough of a justification for me to splurge on the box....

The color may be gimmicky but it doesn't negatively affect sonics. In fact, it probably improves the sound because the black dye otherwise used can contain magnetizable metallic impurities, which is why demagnetizing black vinyl has such a profound sonic effect!

Utter pap!

We've hashed through this BS before.

MF, tell me about the effect of the 'magnetical' field suspending your turntable and platter!

Total bloviation!

That statement is what we use to call MSU* justification in the lab.

(*Made shit up)

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)

The packaging is great, the book is great, the DVD is great, the CD is very good and the LP is... blue and the pressing is average, at best. Don't buy it if you're looking for a great LP, but if you like the extra historical content, then that part is very nice.

Dave

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)

Thanks, Dave. It's a no-go for me, then, mate.

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The color may be gimmicky but it doesn't negatively affect sonics. In fact, it probably improves the sound because the black dye otherwise used can contain magnetizable metallic impurities, which is why demagnetizing black vinyl has such a profound sonic effect!

Utter pap!

We've hashed through this BS before.

MF, tell me about the effect of the 'magnetical' field suspending your turntable and platter!

Total bloviation!

That statement is what we use to call MSU* justification in the lab.

(*Made shit up)

LISTEN, YOU KNOW NOTHING DOOFUS (WHO MAKES UP SHIT):

FIRST OF ALL, IF YOU'RE SO 'SCIENTIFIC,' HOW ABOUT--

1) OBSERVING (hearing) WHAT DEMAGNETIZATION CAN DO OR NOT DO BEFORE DISMISSING IT.

2) LEARN WHAT THE REAL EXPLANATION IS BEFORE MAKING UP YOUR OWN IDIOTIC NON-EXPLANATION AND THEN LAYING IT ON ME?

A) The black dye and/or carbon black used to make records black contains magnetized metallic impurities that can and do affect the cartridge motor.

B) Every skeptical observer (unlike you who dismisses out of hand what he has neither experienced or understood), has heard the not subtle effects of demagnetizing an LP.

C) I took a record at random from my shelf (Tom Waits' "Small Change"--recorded live to two track analog by Bones Howe) and recorded it to my hard drive recorder. I then demagnetized the record and recorded it again. I burned a CD-R and brought it to CES last year. Every person who heard the two versions of the same record heard the PROFOUND difference.

D) I took it to RMAF this past October and played it for Tim DeParavicini and mastering engineer veteran Paul Stubblebine, who both gave me permission to write in my column that they HEARD THE BIG DIFFERENCE.

E) The reason Classic Records went to clear vinyl is that Mike Hobson paid a visit and he was as skeptical as anyone could be about record demagnetization. But unlike YOU, he was willing to listen before calling it B.S. So we took one of his records that he knows well and we played it. Then we demagnetized it and GUESS WHAT???? He heard the BIG difference. He then realized that if he leaves out the coloring agent, he leaves out what gets magnetized.

That's why he began experimenting with clear vinyl.

YOU AND ARROGANT HYPOCRITES LIKE YOU, WHO CLAIM TO BELIEVE IN SCIENTIFIC METHOD BUT WHO DISMISS SOMETHING OUT OF HAND AND PROCEED TO MOCK WITHOUT SO MUCH AS AN OBSERVATION OF A CLAIMED EFFECT REALLY PISS ME OFF.

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The color may be gimmicky but it doesn't negatively affect sonics. In fact, it probably improves the sound because the black dye otherwise used can contain magnetizable metallic impurities, which is why demagnetizing black vinyl has such a profound sonic effect!

Utter pap!

We've hashed through this BS before.

MF, tell me about the effect of the 'magnetical' field suspending your turntable and platter!

Total bloviation!

That statement is what we use to call MSU* justification in the lab.

(*Made shit up)

LISTEN, YOU KNOW NOTHING DOOFUS (WHO MAKES UP SHIT):

FIRST OF ALL, IF YOU'RE SO 'SCIENTIFIC,' HOW ABOUT--

1) OBSERVING (hearing) WHAT DEMAGNETIZATION CAN DO OR NOT DO BEFORE DISMISSING IT.

2) LEARN WHAT THE REAL EXPLANATION IS BEFORE MAKING UP YOUR OWN IDIOTIC NON-EXPLANATION AND THEN LAYING IT ON ME?

A) The black dye and/or carbon black used to make records black contains magnetized metallic impurities that can and do affect the cartridge motor.

B) Every skeptical observer (unlike you who dismisses out of hand what he has neither experienced or understood), has heard the not subtle effects of demagnetizing an LP.

C) I took a record at random from my shelf (Tom Waits' "Small Change"--recorded live to two track analog by Bones Howe) and recorded it to my hard drive recorder. I then demagnetized the record and recorded it again. I burned a CD-R and brought it to CES last year. Every person who heard the two versions of the same record heard the PROFOUND difference.

D) I took it to RMAF this past October and played it for Tim DeParavicini and mastering engineer veteran Paul Stubblebine, who both gave me permission to write in my column that they HEARD THE BIG DIFFERENCE.

E) The reason Classic Records went to clear vinyl is that Mike Hobson paid a visit and he was as skeptical as anyone could be about record demagnetization. But unlike YOU, he was willing to listen before calling it B.S. So we took one of his records that he knows well and we played it. Then we demagnetized it and GUESS WHAT???? He heard the BIG difference. He then realized that if he leaves out the coloring agent, he leaves out what gets magnetized.

That's why he began experimenting with clear vinyl.

YOU AND ARROGANT HYPOCRITES LIKE YOU, WHO CLAIM TO BELIEVE IN SCIENTIFIC METHOD BUT WHO DISMISS SOMETHING OUT OF HAND AND PROCEED TO MOCK WITHOUT SO MUCH AS AN OBSERVATION OF A CLAIMED EFFECT REALLY PISS ME OFF.

Well. I'm certainly glad to see a response!

I think "arrogant" is a projection.

We've even had a thread on the BS of this topic.

Added Edit: October 2006, IIRC, but I can't get the threads to open for that issue! Dang!

If you want to claim it. Show it.

Go check out the previous thread. IBID, as they say.

Asking for you to substantiate a claim is not arrogant, it's interest in the subject beyond you saying "Because I say so."

Perhaps the device in question does something you like, but demagnetizing an LP is not it.

If you want to make claims based on your personal credibility, first go back and look at the glowing recommendations for Tice Clocks and then the follow up clock that was even better! That lived in your reference system for how long? Still there? It isn't listed any longer, that's for sure.

Romance is fine, and then it wears off. Look back at your audio experiences and put this demagnetization silliness in perspective.

Rather than rehash the BS nature of the claim, I'll go look for the original thread.

Buddha
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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)

Ya know what might be cool...how about a report of demagnetizing the blue Miles LP?

No carbon full of metal bits there - I wonder what would be heard?

Have you 'demagnetized' any non-black LP's?

No fair saying, "There's no need to demagnetize them."

That would be what an arrogant doofus would say, right?

Anyway, about clear vinyl...

IIRC, there was an article in the audio press back in the day that looked at vinyl characteristics with going 'clear' that created a situation where the vinyl characterists had to be changed to facilitate the process that had a negative effect on the sound quality of the vinyl.

Anybody else remember or disremember that article?

Jim Tavegia
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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)

I love KOB, but I am not investing in this reissue, even with all the new goodies. I've ordered a copy of the SACD and would consider buying the book John Marks talked about in his piece on KOB last year.

This kind of money could buy more Miles on LP or CD and be better spent...at least IMHO. I really don't need a blue lp.

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)


Quote:
IIRC, there was an article in the audio press back in the day that looked at vinyl characteristics with going 'clear' that created a situation where the vinyl characterists had to be changed to facilitate the process that had a negative effect on the sound quality of the vinyl.

Anybody else remember or disremember that article?

Back in the golden '70's colored vinyl was suspect as noisy and full of impurities that supposedly compromised the sound. This according to our audio guru who was pushing QUAD ESL's and home brewed SET's (which sounded FANTASTIC, BTW).

I have a vinyl issue by The White Stripes, Elephant, that has a white disc and a clear red disc. Of the 4 sides (A,B,3 & D- artists are SO cute!) side 3 on clear red has the best sound, by a long shot. Can't claim it's because of the vinyl, the pressing or the mastering. I have a vintage Philips 212 and a cheap Grado Silver so I'm not equipped to make a qualified judgment.

But I certainly remember reading articles discussing color affecting vinyl playback.

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)

The original pressing of Elvis' "Moody Blue" - guess what color it is - still sounds as good as it always did. Which considering Elvis recorded this in his own home studio, sounds pretty much like crap. But, hey, it's Elvis just before he tipped off the toilet and that's good enough.

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)


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The original pressing of Elvis' "Moody Blue" - guess what color it is - still sounds as good as it always did. Which considering Elvis recorded this in his own home studio, sounds pretty much like crap. But, hey, it's Elvis just before he tipped off the toilet and that's good enough.

I used to love getting the colored vinyls, but likely back in the day the pressing quality was not of the highest priority.

There are so many, I think I need to go back and do more A/B listening between the coloreds and the blacks.

I've been looking like crazy for that vinyl characteristics article!

linden518
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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)

The new Walkmen LP is candy apple red, and not only does it sound great, it makes me want to drive out to buy some gummy Lifesavers.

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)

My wife and I use the Tice as our alarm clock and the time has never been clearer, especially for my wife, in the morning, before she dons her glasses. Love those huge LED digits...

I saw the clock in the basement of one of my dealers about 6 years ago and had a fond flashback to the early 90's. He gave it to me, it was New Old Stock. Sweeeeet.

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)

The hostile over-reaction and the ad hominem attack really puts me off whatever else MF has to say here. Buddha knows some audio stuff too, so he's no "doofus". MF, you should have addressed this without shouting and insulting. IMO, you lose this round. This is a discussion forum, not an Automatic Acceptance of MF opinion forum.

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)

Bill-

I tend to agree that MF response was completely out of line. Buddha is a member in good standing and he deserved, at the very least a more respectful reply. MF isn't around the forums enough to know who "the regulars" are (unless he reads them and never posts) or what contributions they have made to the community. Buddha isn't the forum naysayer poo-pooing every tweak. All of his posts that I have read have been well thought out and reasonable. Many of them quite witty too.

Buddha also made an interesting suggestion about trying to de-mag a colored or clear record. That would certainly make for an interesting experiment. That might help to determine what is going on here, or it could confuse things further but at the very least it would add information and knowledge.

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)


Quote:

Quote:
So I started to read the Miles Davis "Kind of Blue" megabox review with keen interest, because I wanted to know if the included LP was good enough of a justification for me to splurge on the box....

The color may be gimmicky but it doesn't negatively affect sonics. In fact, it probably improves the sound because the black dye otherwise used can contain magnetizable metallic impurities, which is why demagnetizing black vinyl has such a profound sonic effect!

The blue version was mastered from the 3 track original tape at Sterling Sound and folded down to two tracks very carefully under the supervision of Sony/Legacy's Steve Berkowitz. So the sound should be quite good--if you like the sound of the Neumann lathe. Not everyone does but that's what Kevin Gray uses at AcousTech, so if you like those records (and everyone does)....the only problem is the pressing quality. And the pressing quality is not good. There's noisy "non-fill" at the beginning of most copies and that's a shame. It's a shame it was pressed (I believe) at United in Nashville instead of at a place that cares enough or is competent enough to do consistently good work...MF

Mr. Fremer, id love to see the experiment you did for Paravincini and Stubbelbine subjected to
This

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)


Quote:
The hostile over-reaction and the ad hominem attack really puts me off whatever else MF has to say here. Buddha knows some audio stuff too, so he's no "doofus". MF, you should have addressed this without shouting and insulting. IMO, you lose this round. This is a discussion forum, not an Automatic Acceptance of MF opinion forum.

Perhaps it's the result of too many hecklers from back in Mr. Frmer's comedian days? Mr. Fremer seems to a good guy from some interactions I've had with him with email questions, but has an overly short fuse regards to criticism in Forums or letters. But on the other hand, he chooses to create a bit of a rock star persona via the kinds of articles he writes, as well as promoting his DVDs (the first of which I found extremely helpful). When you become a celebrity, even a minor one, you need to develop a thicker skin or pretty soon everyone will seem like an enemy.

Sure, Buddha dismissed the demag vinyl statement out of hand, but Fremer's point would have gotten a lot more traction with a few reasonable statements of opinion and a link to his original review. As it is, when you jump right to Defcon 1 from one little jibe you just seem paranoid and irrational.

Michael Fremer
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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)


Quote:
Bill-

I tend to agree that MF response was completely out of line. Buddha is a member in good standing and he deserved, at the very least a more respectful reply. MF isn't around the forums enough to know who "the regulars" are (unless he reads them and never posts) or what contributions they have made to the community. Buddha isn't the forum naysayer poo-pooing every tweak. All of his posts that I have read have been well thought out and reasonable. Many of them quite witty too.

Buddha also made an interesting suggestion about trying to de-mag a colored or clear record. That would certainly make for an interesting experiment. That might help to determine what is going on here, or it could confuse things further but at the very least it would add information and knowledge.

So therefore I'm not entitled to any respect whatsoever? And this guy is entitled to call me a bullshit artist? That's rich!

Michael Fremer
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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)

Mr. Fremer, id love to see the experiment you did for Paravincini and Stubbelbine subjected to
This

That's a great idea! I have the CD-R and I have a window computer I bought to run the Feickert set up software and when I finish with this month's deadlines (I'm late!), I'll try it and let everyone who loves me here know what I find.

Michael Fremer
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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)


Quote:
Ya know what might be cool...how about a report of demagnetizing the blue Miles LP?

No carbon full of metal bits there - I wonder what would be heard?

Have you 'demagnetized' any non-black LP's?

No fair saying, "There's no need to demagnetize them."

That would be what an arrogant doofus would say, right?

Anyway, about clear vinyl...

IIRC, there was an article in the audio press back in the day that looked at vinyl characteristics with going 'clear' that created a situation where the vinyl characterists had to be changed to facilitate the process that had a negative effect on the sound quality of the vinyl.

Anybody else remember or disremember that article?

I tried demagnetizing non-black and translucent vinyl and there was no change.

The sonic difference between the non demagged LP and the demagged one was LARGE. EVERYONE who was played the two versions via CD-R--and I've done this all over the world without identifying which was which and often without saying what differentiated the two---heard the difference and expressed it in the same terms. So I really find the arrogance of whatever his name is here, dismissing this, really putrid.

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)


Quote:

Quote:
Bill-

I tend to agree that MF response was completely out of line. Buddha is a member in good standing and he deserved, at the very least a more respectful reply. MF isn't around the forums enough to know who "the regulars" are (unless he reads them and never posts) or what contributions they have made to the community. Buddha isn't the forum naysayer poo-pooing every tweak. All of his posts that I have read have been well thought out and reasonable. Many of them quite witty too.

Buddha also made an interesting suggestion about trying to de-mag a colored or clear record. That would certainly make for an interesting experiment. That might help to determine what is going on here, or it could confuse things further but at the very least it would add information and knowledge.

So therefore I'm not entitled to any respect whatsoever? And this guy is entitled to call me a bullshit artist? That's rich!

Boy,

Please quit putting words in my mouth.

"Bullshit artist" is too general.

Does respect require that we buy lines of specific bullshit that you parrot courtesy of a marketing firm?

As an aside: I did not dismiss the Furutech Demagnetizer "out of hand," I dismissed deliberately after considering the product and its claims.

I'm fine with MF, just not on this topic when he drops all journalistic pretext and helps foist crap upon my hobby.

(Did Fremer reply about the Tice Clock thing, by the way?)

Go here...
Furutech Demag Page

Check those numbers.

Did it demagnetize anything?

If you say, "Yes," then it certainly sucks at its job, no? Left behind loads of 'magnetism!"

MF, what investigation did you do into the claims made by Furutech? Did you go learn anything about carbon black? Magnetism? My bet would be that you did nothing. (Sorry for not 'respecting' you on this issue. I am genuflecting as I type this.)

What sort of values does a machine like that give from hour to hour, just sitting there? Did you check, or should I tell you? Did you check the scale of the numbers? Any research at all into a subject upon which you now claim AUTHORITY? (Not just AUTHORITY, but AUTHORITY that demands proper respect.)

No, I bet not.

My dismissal isn't that you hear something, it's that you say you heard something for a very specific reason, end of story....end of curiosity or further interest. That's the bullshit.

I've played with another leading brand. Did you know that if you put socks from the drier on it, it removes static cling?

Did it just demagnetize my socks?

No.

Next, try using a thing called a Zerostat gun on an LP, then compare the effect to "demagnetizing" it. Pretty much the same, huh?

This is the Zerostat Gun product

Next, go open the October 2006 thread and use it to learn about the values and claims Furutech flings against the wall. As a journalist who gets outraged by having his fuckin' facts challenged, did you do any sort of fact checking or any of thoser things 'journalists' do before making claims? Did you do anything other than memorize what Furutech told you?

Only an "ARROGANT DOOFUS" would not do due diligence, right?

If you are going to 'endorse' 1800 dollar Hi Fi treatments, I would expect some more effort from you than "BECAUSE I SAY SO! DOOFUS!"

Right at the 30th anniversary of Jonestown, I do not want to be yelled at for not wanting to unquestioningly drink the Koo Aid. I've been to Furutech's display at CES, I've listened to 'treated' and 'untreated' product, and I've tried to verify their claims. I dismissed your claims about LP demagnetizing with malice aforethought - certainly not 'out of hand.'

MF, you are entitled to respect, just not unblinking zombie respect. You made a claim as an authority (in fact, you made the claim 'out of hand') and then expect moon eyed respect when you have done ZERO (!) background on the claims made. Great, tell me much how much respect you deserve on this claim and I'll write a "Respect Check" to you for the proper amount.

You can keep the check as a memento to put under your Tice Clock.

Stephen: Is there a way I can retrieve some data from the October 2006 Issue's forum?

Michael Fremer
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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The color may be gimmicky but it doesn't negatively affect sonics. In fact, it probably improves the sound because the black dye otherwise used can contain magnetizable metallic impurities, which is why dema
Asking for you to substantiate a claim is not arrogant, it's interest in the subject beyond you saying "Because I say so."

Perhaps the device in question does something you like, but demagnetizing an LP is not it.

If you want to make claims based on your personal credibility, first go back and look at the glowing recommendations for Tice Clocks and then the follow up clock that was even better! That lived in your reference system for how long? Still there? It isn't listed any longer, that's for sure.

A) The Tice clock and the Quantum thingie that Nordost has purchased and now sells has NOTHING whatsoever to do with this

B) Rather than ask me to substantiate the claim to your exalted excellency's satisfaction, you declared it bullshit.

C) I substantiated it to Tim DeParavicini and Paul Stubblebine, as well as to hundreds of listeners around the world.

D) I realize that's insufficient for his exalted excellency but it will just have to do for now.

E) Might I suggest that you at least LISTEN to this device before dismissing it out of hand? You will hear what it does instantly. It is not subtle. EveAnna Manley, who is an EE has heard it as well...

Buddha
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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)

As I said, I believe you when you say you heard something. I do not believe you when you make a claim as to certainty with regard to it being a magnetic phenomenon.

The example of the Tice Clock and the following brand of Stupendous Clock you plotzed over do apply here. If a reviewer has been capricious with accolades in the past, and then the enthusiasm has diminished to not using the product any more...well, past behavior is something that can color our perception of current behavior.

I have listened to the competing brand of this device, and have listened to LP's treated by your new darling brand - my point of contention is that the 'it's demagnetizing vinyl!' spiel is where I would challenge His Infallibleness. (If I'm "You Exalted Excellency, I'll make you "His Infallibleness.")

Anyay, we will probably remain apart on the 'why' of this product.

Wow, good news, though...now we find out you've treated non-black records. (Maybe call me "Sir Dubious" instead of "Your Exalted Excellency.")

I guess from that we can take away that labels containing magnetic particles must not come into play here, nor any other impurities in the coloring agents or the vinyl itself. No?

That's good, we have narrowed it down to carbon black.

The iron, nickle, cobalt content of carbon black is zero. Funny.

So, the bummer is, now we gotta find a way to demagnetize carbon based tonearms that hold magnetic fields from cartridges and carrying current through their internal wiring. (I use a Triplanar, you use the Continuum.) We are screwed, I guess, until Furutech comes up with an arm demagnetizer.

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)


Quote:
Stephen: Is there a way I can retrieve some data from the October 2006 Issue's forum?

I haven't had any luck with this yet, Buddha. Sorry, but I will try to get it figured out.

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)

Hello all. I wish to neither criticize nor commend anyone. But this back and forth does lead me to offer an observation about the tenor of some posts to this and other forums.

This is a request for civility.

Within the last month (I think), one frequent poster to this forum totally dismissed my comments, and my product reviews for "another network," by engaging in a personal attack on my integrity. In the wake of my "Green" editorial, people again chose to attack me in comments on the forum and letters to the editor.

It's called attacking the messenger rather than criticizing the message. It's so easy to do. All you have to do is type some letters and hit send. You can virtually crucify someone verbally in less time than it takes to brew a cup of coffee.

Some years back, I engaged in an ill-fated, poorly designed blind power cable comparison. The people who wanted it to fail - and I realize in retrospect that it was set up for failure - ignored the faulty methodology, and attacked me viciously. Even worse was when I dared review the Marigo Signature 3-D mat (whose improved Version II I consider indispensable and use constantly in my Theta Carmen II transport and junky VCR). For two solid months, volleys were fired on other forums. There were a few supportive posts from people who had tried the mat and heard the difference it makes. But they were ignored, as people who had never bothered to listen and refused to listen turned several forums into one-sided football games.

At that time, I chose to respond. Now I do my best to remain silent.

Yes, many of us have learned to develop a thick skin. But it's a bit of a challenge to both work for years to keep one's heart open to whatever emotional impact a piece of music can have, and at the same time keep one's guard up for those who treat your honest opinions as though they're acts of state terrorism.

Many writers for Stereophile, and certainly those who wear the dual hat of music critic as I do, willingly stick our necks out, reporting our experience as best we can. You may or may not like what we say; you may or may not agree. But unless you find our statements capricious or irresponsible, please disagree with the message rather than attacking the messenger.

jason victor serinus (who is not going to engage in a back and forth about this, and certainly feels no need to defend it)

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)

Let's get something straight. Michael Fremer HAS invested immense amounts of time and energy doing brilliant work for Stereophile for many years. HE commands the respect and admiration of thousands of reviewers every month through is proven track record and his deep knowledge of vinyl. And it is clear that MANY of you posters DO NOT show him the required respect through valid arguments, but flame and rage over subjects that they have little knowledge or verifiable background. While audiophiles seem to THINK they know everything extant about audio reproduction, the fact is they DONT have the respect and and credulity that MF has earned with HUNDREDS of manufacturers over the years. Know YOUR role, boys and girls, and when you become an writing editor of an internationally-accepted magazine, THEN pretend to know what you are talking about. Until then, keep your assinine assumptions to your chest.

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)

Following that Furutech link as Buddha suggests, I learn that Furutech claims to reduce the magnetic field of LP's by about 0.5 milligauss. (This from their statement that their device reduces it from ~625 nanoTeslas to ~575 nanoTeslas.) For comparison, the Earth's magnetic field is around 0.5 gauss, i.e. 1,000 times greater. That field is exerting a small torque on the magnetic parts of the cartridge away from the horizontal, and a small torque pulling those components into a north-south orientation. Evidently even that field is not an issue for record playing, which immediately suggests that a field one thousandth as strong is going to be irrelevant.

But let's give Furutech the benefit of the doubt. Those geomagnetic forces only vary slowly as the record is played (because of the movement of the tone arm with respect to north-south, assuming a pivoted arm), so even if they are at all significant to the behavior of the cartridge, they might be essentially constant and hence insignificant to the cartridge output. But that points up the fact that any effect of the LP's magnetic field on a cartridge would come from *variations* in that field.

It would be interesting to hear from somebody familiar with the engineering of phono cartridges whether an ambient magnetic field variation on the order of a milligauss over a distance of (presumably) some centimeters could possibly be physically significant.

My gut feeling, as a former physicist, is no, which suggests the following experiment: try using the Furutech device without plugging it in. Perhaps it simply flattens the records slightly.

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)


Quote:
Let's get something straight. Michael Fremer HAS invested immense amounts of time and energy doing brilliant work for Stereophile for many years. HE commands the respect and admiration of thousands of reviewers every month through is proven track record and his deep knowledge of vinyl. And it is clear that MANY of you posters DO NOT show him the required respect through valid arguments, but flame and rage over subjects that they have little knowledge or verifiable background. While audiophiles seem to THINK they know everything extant about audio reproduction, the fact is they DONT have the respect and and credulity that MF has earned with HUNDREDS of manufacturers over the years. Know YOUR role, boys and girls, and when you become an writing editor of an internationally-accepted magazine, THEN pretend to know what you are talking about. Until then, keep your assinine assumptions to your chest.

Wow, first post. Welcome!

So, at what point are we allowed to question the physics of demagnetizing LP's if Fremer claims such?

Has does one satisfy your requirement of deference to Fremer when one disagrees on a topic?

If you could be so kind, I'd love to have someone show the proper respect for Mr. Fremer while disagreeing about demagnetizing LP's.

I also missed the part where Mr. Fremer acquired 'deep knowledge' of magnetism and how those properties manifest in a vinyl record.

On magnetism, Fremer is not 'pretending' to have, as you say, "deep knowledge" of all things magnetic, but a consumer who doesn't agree with an out of hand statement of fact by him is 'pretending?'

I don't buy your argument how we should just say, "Yes, Mike," and take his WORD as fact.

Since you are here, and welcome again, would you care to share your take on the topic of LP demagnetization?

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)


Quote:

Quote:
Bill-

I tend to agree that MF response was completely out of line. Buddha is a member in good standing and he deserved, at the very least a more respectful reply. MF isn't around the forums enough to know who "the regulars" are (unless he reads them and never posts) or what contributions they have made to the community. Buddha isn't the forum naysayer poo-pooing every tweak. All of his posts that I have read have been well thought out and reasonable. Many of them quite witty too.

Buddha also made an interesting suggestion about trying to de-mag a colored or clear record. That would certainly make for an interesting experiment. That might help to determine what is going on here, or it could confuse things further but at the very least it would add information and knowledge.

So therefore I'm not entitled to any respect whatsoever? And this guy is entitled to call me a bullshit artist? That's rich!

Mr. Fremer. Buddha attacked ONE of your IDEAS you attacked him PERSONALLY, that's not tit for tat. I think that you over-reacted and escalated the situation.

He isn't saying that there is no sonic change by using the unit. He is questioning if the change that you heard is due to the scientific principles that the manufacturer claims are at work or from some other factor not mentioned(be that an unknown scientific factor or placebo.)

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)


Quote:
Mr. Fremer. Buddha attacked ONE of your IDEAS you attacked him PERSONALLY, that's not tit for tat. I think that you over-reacted and escalated the situation.

In Michael's defense, he has been insulted and ridiculed on another forum recently over matters which are far less contentious than the "demagnetizing" of LPs, so I think his hair trigger can be symphasized with.


Quote:
He isn't saying that there is no sonic change by using the unit. He is questioning if the change that you heard is due to the scientific principles that the manufacturer claims are at work or from some other factor not mentioned(be that an unknown scientific factor or placebo.)

Fair enough, which is why I like to put quotation marks around the word "demagnetizing" in this context. There undoubtedly seems to be an audible difference by "demagnetizing" conventional black LPs (but not clear or colored ones), but the quotation marks emphasize that the mechanism by which this happens is open to question and may or may not involve actual demagnetization.

But you don't have to be able to explain why there is a difference before you can hear it.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)

are they technical matters?(re the other forum you referenced?)

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)

Some investigative journalism into the mechanisms at work in this product would be really interesting instead of MF just taking the manufacturer or their representatives claims at face value.

Maybe a follow up by you John, trying to figure out a way to measure the effect or talking to scientists with expertise in magnetism or related fields.

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)


Quote:
Some investigative journalism into the mechanisms at work in this product would be really interesting instead of MF just taking the manufacturer or their representatives claims at face value.

Michael isn't just taking the manufacturer's claims as granted. He is a careful and conscientious listener, and if he says he hears a difference it isn't because of anything the manufacturer has said.


Quote:
Maybe a follow up by you John, trying to figure out a way to measure the effect or talking to scientists with expertise in magnetism or related fields.

That the carbon black used to make LPs opaque contains small amounts of magnetic contaminants has been established. If you are asking me to conjecture why this should matter, consider an "un-demagnetized" LP. All the domains will have been aligned by the Earth's magnetic field. Spin the LP and you will therefore induce a 1/33.33Hz AC signal into the cartridge coils.

You would have thought that the amplitude of this induced signal would so low as to be negligible. However, you do have the effect of the RIAA de-emphasis to take into account, which at this low frequency will have, depending on the phono preamp design, will amplify it by perhaps +40dB. Might this make it audible? Perhaps, or the audible effect might have nothing to so with magnetic effects at all.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)

I always thought that sound was the cartridge trying to read the label on the record once every revolution.

"Ki ...

... nd ...

... of ...

... B ...

... lu ...

... e"

So it knew what songs to play. Guess that's not how records work, huh?

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)

Exactly my point, JA. Both you and MF have ears (and writing) I do trust implicitly, and yes, virtually all of the time.. This is not blind acceptance. This has been 20 years of reading reviews and measurements, and AUDITIONING similar or same findings that these writers have. I hear it, and I concur? THEN I believe. Arguments and hypothesis to prove them wrong are flawed inherently, and trusting our ears (and OTHERS) is what's its about. NOT disbelieving everyone for your viewpoint.

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)


Quote:
That's a great idea! I have the CD-R and I have a window computer I bought to run the Feickert set up software and when I finish with this month's deadlines (I'm late!), I'll try it and let everyone who loves me here know what I find.


If you do that test, and report the result here honestly, I'll love you.

--Ethan

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)

Let me make another point that might irritate most argumentative respondents out there- JA and MF would not spew random, uninformed, un-auditioned, assertions based on conjecture- ever. They have far too much integrity PROVEN over the years, and they have credulity of HUNDREDS of international manufacturers and designers. This isnt collusion, it's a long term trusted relationship builidng with exploration made by a variety of talented, objective and intelligent minds. They have their integrity to the 40 year old magazine to worry about, and lots of long term readers who are watching for nonsense, like me- 25 years. I mean, have you been READING this magazine at all? Or just flaming all the valid statements of the writers and editors here, Budda?

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)


Quote:
Let me make another point that might irritate most argumentative respondents out there- JA and MF would not spew random, uninformed, un-auditioned, assertions based on conjecture- ever. They have far too much integrity PROVEN over the years, and they have credulity of HUNDREDS of international manufacturers and designers. This isnt collusion, it's a long term trusted relationship builidng with exploration made by a variety of talented, objective and intelligent minds. They have their integrity to the 40 year old magazine to worry about, and lots of long term readers who are watching for nonsense, like me- 25 years. I mean, have you been READING this magazine at all? Or just flaming all the valid statements of the writers and editors here, Budda?

Hi, Grotz.

Sorry I was slow to read you. You are being a sarcasm, yes? You should be careful, people eventually figured out this guy, too....

I try to never flame valid statements.

Cheers.

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)

No, I am not being sarcastic in the least. I think you have acted disgracefully in the limited time I have spent in 'Flame Central', and you Buddha, are the most egregious, unprofessional, and over-emotional dolt in this bunch. Check your language and yourself. You should be ashamed at the insults you leveled against these respected writers and editors.

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)


Quote:

Quote:
That's a great idea! I have the CD-R and I have a window computer I bought to run the Feickert set up software and when I finish with this month's deadlines (I'm late!), I'll try it and let everyone who loves me here know what I find.


If you do that test, and report the result here honestly, I'll love you.

Perhaps I am feeling thin-skinned today, Ethan, but why _wouldn't_ Michael report honestly what he finds?

My remit to my writers is for them alway to report what they hear, without fear of favor, and to disregard not only the consequences of not being politically or scientifically correct, but also the fact that their auditioning comments on most products are going to be accompanied by a measurements section that might contradict what they write. It is a tribute to their listening abilities and experience that such contradictions are rare.

A comment on the the "demagnetization" measurements: if is due to the randomization of VLF signals as I conjectured in an earlier posting, this is something that will be very difficult to determine due to the enormous FFT lengths required to get sufficient resolution in the presence of signal at these very low frequencies.

John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)


Quote:
No, I am not being sarcastic in the least. I think you have acted disgracefully in the limited time I have spent in 'Flame Central', and you Buddha, are the most egregious, unprofessional, and over-emotional dolt in this bunch. Check your language and yourself. You should be ashamed at the insults you leveled against these respected writers and editors.


Thank you for patrolling here, dolt police. Without you and your self-righteous moralism, we would all be lost lambs.

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)

Self-righteous moralism?!?! What the heck are you talking about? JA just addressed his writer's integrity with the last post, and like Buddha, you talk of no substance in relation to their track record and long history of writing, nor of his long-standing relationships with manufacturers and distributors in the realm of audio. YOU are the one talking a holier-than-thou attitude, along with Buddha, and you dont have the inherent respect to these guys who HAVE been writing professionally in these subjects for years. THEIR responses to you and Buddha are very obvious about their feelings towards YOUR posts, not mine. Check yourself. I dont have to. I HAVE shown the respect, admiration and understanding to hear and not scoff, to learn and not ridicule. You should to, but your emotionally stunted responses and rants have shown that you guys DONT have the capacity to do that. Period.

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)

Hi, Mr. Too-Fond-of-Capital-Letters. If you'll notice, this thread was started by me & either JA or SM, or both, decided to feature it on the front page of Stereophile. So before you start accusing me of trying to character-assassinate the Stereophile crew, why don't you stop hyperventilating, please. I know you have like 5 posts, and haven't had enough time to really read anything else, but you'll see that I accord Stereophile writers & editors their due respect. I have no reason to show you but Fremer & I just had a pleasant PM exchange on Thelonius Monk pressings, too, and I definitely heed to his expertise. So before you start dreaming up weird conspiracy theories in your head, have a cold shower or something and stop listening to those voices in your head.

I just noticed a tendency on your part to denigrate everyone, telling someone that he has a dog in his ear, things like that. Why the negativity and anger at people that you don't even know? I think it's fantastic that you have much admiration for the Stereophile crew. Most of us here do, despite your thickheaded willingness to believe otherwise. So get off your high horse and stop bitching.

Not cool.

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)

Just remember, if you haven't heard what the Furutech does, you cannot and should not have an opinion on it's effectiveness. Moreover, if many, respectable engineers, reviewers, listeners and writers HAVE heard a difference, that IS good enough for me to take the time and listen too. Cost is a whole 'nother ball game. But again, that's not the issue here. Disrepect is. Have an argument without insults, or insults will be all you get. And deserve.

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)

Hi Glotz,

Its always good to see a new user to the forum. Although, it is a bit sad to see this thread reduced to a silly tiff.

I think the point that Selfdivider and Bhudda are trying to make is that here on the forums, we do often question the writers. That is often the purpose of these forums themself: as a way to directly address the editorial staff. While Bhudda could have been more eloquent than,


Quote:
MF, tell me about the effect of the 'magnetical' field suspending your turntable and platter!

Total bloviation!

That statement is what we use to call MSU* justification in the lab.

the writers are often responsive and take part in the fun. Unfortunately, MF is often subject to harsh questioning, which as JA indicated has led particularly to his sensitivity on the matter. But as you explore the forums more, you'll find our posters often challengin the writers, either by poking fun at them or by asking them nicely, and the writers almost always respond appropriately, or even take part in the brouhaha(I recall one thread with some banter between AlexO and Kal, something about a prima donna, but both parties left without their feelings destroyed). We're on these forums because we love Stereophile, the reviews, and the writers and want to take a more active role in the magazine. Questioning the editors and writers shouldn't be deterred. It should actually be encouraged so that we all have a better understanding of what MF or AD or WP or JA or KR or JVS or anybody is saying in their review.

Bhudda raises a more important and interesting question: if it can't be measured than can it be heard? Often reviewers will hear differences which can't be measured either as a result of the placebo or simply greater confidence in their system after that random tweak. Even if the difference is listenable, that does not necessarily mean it can be measured.

It is our duty as readers of the magazine to question, as in the scientific process, as long as it doesn't get in the way of our enjoyment.

Glotz
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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)

You attacked me, hypocrite. Oh, MF called you that already. Must've forgot.. I dont need this site to justify my knowledge of audio reproduction- I've been a subscriber for 25 years to this and many mags. And yes, YOU acted without respect and LOVE to flame. YOUR behavior, not mine. You just can't stand that no-one was addressing you in the first place. It was a reaction to Buddha's emotion responses. I use capitals where their necessary, apparently you don't hear too well. And I'm glad YOU calmed down enough for one civil conversation with MF.. I'm surprised he tolerated your attitude this long... (Oh that's right, he got sick of it yesterday, and called YOU guys the dolts..not me.) Waaaaaaaa....

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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)

Accusing MF of "total bloviation" about that Furutech subject IS insulting, and I dont need a lesson on how to communicate professionally. Buddha and Divider DO.

Glotz
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Re: "Kind of Blue" Review (Arggghhh!!!)

There was no real questioning, but a very ugly attack on MF about HIS findings. That is what reduced this to a silly tiff, and it was enough for MF and JA to respond the way they did. My skin is tough, I can handle anyone in this forum, and still walk away satified I acted like an adult. Doubtful after reviewing the previous posts, that the guilty parties in this can. And they can't admit that for one fleeting second. That's on them, and they have reacted accordingly.

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