mdrc
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Just about to take the plunge!
mrlowry
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Other than the Cord cables I have first hand experience with all of those components. Let me start off by saying all of that is excellent gear.

When you say bass definition is the problem could you be more specific? Are you looking for more bass extension? Is the mid bass muddy? How long have you had the speakers and components?

They will take a couple of hundred hours to fully break in. How much have you played with speaker positioning? The speakers location in a room can have a PROFOUND effect on bass. It should also be stated that it's FREE. If you haven't experimented extensively with room placement DON'T SPEND ANOTHER DIME until you do or you could be wasting massive amounts of money. Acoustic treatment products can also effect massive changes for minimal outlay if used properly.

ethanwiner
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my only slight disappointment is with the definition of bass response ... Are there any tweaks of components or cables I ought to consider to get the best out of such a ssystem please?


Bass clarity and definition are a function of your room much more than anything else. So the traditional solution is acoustic treatment and especially bass traps. Versus replacing wires that will not affect bass clarity even a little. Much more here:

Acoustics FAQ

--Ethan

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Quote:

Quote:
my only slight disappointment is with the definition of bass response ... Are there any tweaks of components or cables I ought to consider to get the best out of such a system please?


Bass clarity and definition are a function of your room much more than anything else. So the traditional solution is acoustic treatment and especially bass traps. Versus replacing wires that will not affect bass clarity even a little. Much more here:

Acoustics FAQ

--Ethan

That's not entirely true Ethan. I am deeply familiar with both the design of audio cables and room acoustical function and modification.

I would say that in my mind, Room acoustics would definitely be something near or at the top of my list when it comes to audio rooms. Heck, I sleep in a room with proper acoustic absorption. That's how much I believe in it.

But I still give good solid credence to audio cables for similar reasons: It is part of the whole package.

You might be suffering from the average understanding of audio cables. Let me make you aware that there is an entirely different beast out there these days, when it comes to cables and the molecular mechanics of transfer function. And these cables DO sound considerably different than you might expect.

however you and I are likely to agree that active room control via altering the source info coming from the speakers is a big no-no, and does not deal with fundamental issues.

If I had $1000 to spend on a upgrade, I would spend it on acoustics...FIRST.

Five ASC corner rounds would be my deal there, in the front corners (two stacked in each corner) and one on it's side between the speakers-against the floor/wall junction. I'd try that to start. If I could find them used for that little. Or I might go for Your product, Ethan.

I use a far more effective product here at home, but it is not generally available. Yet.

michiganjfrog
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Quote:

Quote:
my only slight disappointment is with the definition of bass response ... Are there any tweaks of components or cables I ought to consider to get the best out of such a ssystem please?


Bass clarity and definition are a function of your room much more than anything else. So the traditional solution is acoustic treatment and especially bass traps. Versus replacing wires that will not affect bass clarity even a little. Much more here:

--Ethan


(self-serving website link snipped)

Of course if it so happens that you sold wire for a living and not bass traps, you'd have told the OP the important thing is the wire. And then posted a link to your wire website, instead of your bass trap website.

I'm sure you can answer this Ethan: Isn't there a regulation here about shamelessly peddling your own products on the regular subforums?

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Of course if it so happens that you sold wire for a living and not bass traps, you'd have told the OP the important thing is the wire.

Good try, Mr. Frog, but in fact you're wrong. Ethan, unlike the people selling magical wires, pyramids, stones, chips, etc, is talking actual physics.

You can make much larger changes with some intellegent room treatment than you can with most anything else that actually works. Ditto placement, of course.

It seems, Mr. Frog, that your only mission here is to deny science and physics, and to illicitly call for banning people who actually know something about physics, science, or psychoacoustics.

I submit that you are a serious detriment to both this board and the hobby as a whole, hiding behind your pseudonymous name and attacking folks relentlessly, and, of course completely inaccurately.

judicata
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OP - Congrats on the excellent system!

While there could be a few things going on here, I think room treatment is the obvious place to start.

Ethan doesn't hide the fact that he sells room treatments. And when someone has some great new gear, but something is missing (especially bass), room treatments are a logical place to go. Just because someone sells it doesn't mean they shouldn't respond to the question.

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It seems, Mr. Frog, that your only mission here is to deny science and physics, and to illicitly call for banning people who actually know something about physics, science, or psychoacoustics.


Indeed, I just outed Frog's best friend and accomplice here:

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/16/163495.html

You have to wonder about people who's entire mission in life is to denigrate others.

Note how Toadstool accuse me of shilling my company's products when 1) I intentionally disabled my sig with link to my company's site, and 2) linked instead to a FAQ that describes entirely DIY solutions.

What does that tell you about Frog's ethics?

--Ethan

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Indeed, I just outed Frog's best friend and accomplice here:
" target="_blank">http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/16/163495.html

Oh. My. Lord. Ethan, you just went across the internet all the way to AA, to give me a link to one of your own messages there. So the "best friend and accomplice" you just "outed" was yourself. How stupid is that, exactly? LOL! Take some advice EW: don't play with the big cowboys if you're going to keep shooting yourself in the foot all the time.

You have to wonder about people who's entire mission in life is to denigrate others.

I do have to wonder about that, since you just denigrated me by calling me a "Toadstool", without any such name-calling provocation on my part! LOL! Hypocrisy has a name, and its name is "Ethan Winer".

Note how Toadstool accuse me of shilling my company's products when 1) I intentionally disabled my sig with link to my company's site, and 2) linked instead to a FAQ that describes entirely DIY solutions.

What does that tell you about Frog's ethics?

It tells me Frog is right about your shilling and lack of ethics on this forum, and that you are trying to hide this fact. First of all, you shouldn't be having a sig with a link to your company's site on this forum. That says you're shilling with every post, Winer. Second of all, the so-called "FAQ" you gave the OP is a link on YOUR site. Which references YOUR bass trap business. First you throw them a line, then you pull the fishes in. So YEAH, that is shilling on your part. You could have answered the OP without any references, direct or indirect, to your business of bass traps.

Since you're not even a high end audiophile, the very raison d'etre Stereophile exists, and it has an acoustics forum. So it's clear to me that your primary business here is to sell bass traps. Second to that, is denigrating audiophiles who don't buy into your misguided belief system. But that too supports your primary business interest.

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Good try, Mr. Frog, but in fact you're wrong. Ethan, unlike the people selling magical wires, pyramids, stones, chips, etc, is talking actual physics.

I guess by the fact that you think wires run on "magic", would explain why you're not an audio engineer, Mr. "JJ". And if pyramids aren't a mighty good example of physics, then you've demonstrated quite aptly that you also don't know the anything about physics. But unfortunately as with Ethan, ignorance never stopped you from pretending you're an expert on subjects you know nothing about. You really seem like a misfit looking for a place to belong. I think you'd be a better fit on the sites where they are perpetuating the notion that the moon landing was a hoax, than you are around here. I'm sure you can also find people out there like you, who believe the pyramids have no relation to physics. The longer you stay here, the more you're missing out on the good stuff, you know.


Quote:
You can make much larger changes with some intellegent room treatment than you can with most anything else that actually works. Ditto placement, of course.

"Larger changes" doesn't mean "better changes", Mr. JJ. I can kick one of my woofers in and that'll make a pretty "large change". Won't sound so good, though. Just like Ethan's bass traps, from what I hear. I've seen many with more sophisticated ears than either you or Ethan have complain about how they degrade fragile but important qualities of the system's sound.

Obviously you haven't even read the OP's post. This isn't about making the plates on your neighbour's wall, fall and shatter. It's about refining; improving the definition of bass quality. Installing fridge doors with fiberglass stuffing is not the answer here. Careful tweaking, ie. isolation, or experimenting with different cable sets is more likely to yield the desired results.


Quote:
It seems, Mr. Frog, that your only mission here is to deny science and physics,

It seems you haven't taken your medication this afternoon Mr. JJ, since all I did was politely ask Ethan to follow the rules and stop shilling bass traps on subforums like this. I did NOT start a discussion about science and physics.


Quote:
and to illicitly call for banning people who actually know something about physics, science, or psychoacoustics.

Where have I done that? Stand and deliver, jj. Or... you know the drill. Abject and grovelling apology, forthwith.


Quote:
I submit that you are a serious detriment to both this board and the hobby as a whole,

I submit that you are a serious detriment to both this board and the hobby as a whole. But I'll go you one further and state that you're also a detriment to science, since you peddle pseudoscientic quackery, by and large, on audio forums. And I hear your personal hygiene leaves something to be desired. But really, what does any of your personal rants toward me have to do with this thread? I did not address you here. Stop trolling and launching relentless personal attacks against me, JJ, or ridiculously accusing me of such when I did no such thing here. You left once, you can do it again. If you need a little motivation, just let me know.


Quote:
hiding behind your pseudonymous name

This again?? I guess you just don't realize how insane and foolish you appear, falsely accusing me of this while posting under a "pseudonymous name" of "JJ", or your other "pseudonymous name" of "Woodinville"!!

This pretty much explains why no one really needs to or cares to hear from you any longer. And I don't think I'm going to humour your ridiculous personal attacks any longer myself. You're a waste of time. Enjoy your retirement to irrelevancy, Mr. Pseudonymous JJ Woodinville Whatever.

But if I ever see you shilling on these forums like your buddy Ethan, I will not hesitate to give you the same warning.

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Ethan doesn't hide the fact that he sells room treatments.

Hey, I didn't say he DOES hide that fact. In fact, what do you think I'm calling him out on? I am calling him out on the fact that he is NOT hiding that fact, and indeed, shilling here on behalf of his company, with a link to his site, in a response where he is advising the purchase of bass traps. Which is shilling, which is against the rules of this forum. What part of this isn't clear to you?


Quote:
And when someone has some great new gear, but something is missing (especially bass), room treatments are a logical place to go. Just because someone sells it doesn't mean they shouldn't respond to the question.

This is what you, JJ and Ethan all missed: the OP didn't say there was a lack of bass, he said the bass could be better defined.
And once again, I did not SAY Ethan should not "respond to the question". He has every right to suggest bass traps as a response (even though he appears to suggest bass traps or some other acoustic product he sells to just about any and every problem anyone here ever has! "Got a tummy ache? Try a RealTraps(tm) bass trap for that! It's proven scientifically good!").

Although Ethan should have at least a MORAL obligation to mention to the OP that he owns a company that sells bass traps, the very product he is recommending and that his FAQ indirectly links to his company. He did NOT do so. So yes, in that sense he WAS hiding the fact that he owns a bass trap company.

Now read carefully: what I DID say is that Ethan should not respond to the question with a link to his site where he is shilling his bass traps. There are PLENTY of other sites not owned by Ethan Winer, with acoustics FAQs he could have linked to, if the sole purpose was to educate the OP and not try to shill bass traps to him. If you think Winer was not trying to sell him his bass traps, then you haven't seen much of what Winer does on this forum.

Look at KBK's response for an honest and commendable response. Although KBK sells cables (and exceptionally good cables from all I have heard), he did not recommend cables to the OP to resolve his problem, but acoustics! Which he does not sell AFAIK, but knows plenty about. Plus, KBK gave no link to his site, unlike Ethan, that would lead the OP to his cables.

j_j
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I see that the well has been poisoned by outright lies, and intentional, false professional disparagement.

If discussion becomes possible, please let me know.

Jan Vigne
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Where ya goin', when ya gonna get there and how will we know when you've arrived?

arnyk
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Quote:
I see that the well has been poisoned by outright lies, and intentional, false professional disparagement.

If discussion becomes possible, please let me know.

Yes JJ, here we go again, yet another discussion poisoned by the usual well-aliased suspects.

Ever wonder how many people there are behind the multitude of aliases that post here? They all sound pretty much alike to me...

j_j
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Where ya goin', when ya gonna get there and how will we know when you've arrived?

Oh, the OP is welcome to PM me, and no, I don't sell any kind of acoustic treatment, but I can tell him how to do some from cheap materials. On the other hand, you will then miss out on a valuable answer.

But you don't get to know where to go to stalk me next, because I'm not going anywhere.

smejias
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Ever wonder how many people there are behind the multitude of aliases that post here? They all sound pretty much alike to me...

Interesting thought, Arny. Do you suspect that there are people here posting under multiple aliases? If so, please let me know. I have access to everyone's information and I can look into this. As far as I know, there are no current members with multiple aliases.

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Quote:

Quote:
Ever wonder how many people there are behind the multitude of aliases that post here? They all sound pretty much alike to me...

Interesting thought, Arny. Do you suspect that there are people here posting under multiple aliases? If so, please let me know. I have access to everyone's information and I can look into this. As far as I know, there are no current members with multiple aliases.

Oy, vey!

Some people have nothing to sell and may be loathe to have their particulars pop up on Google.

This is a privately owned board and there are probably members with no personal agenda to advance or product to sell; hence, the non-specific monikers. Nothing to do with effing hiding behind a false front. It's just that, for some purposes, it comes down to 'nonya bidnis' if some spammer goes name hunting.

I get exposed to enough cigarette ads just be being an audiophile.

Anyone is free to PM or check out the site and likely find plenty of real names. I had my name taken from an unrelated site once and it started showing up in the oddest places. I'd rather just make it two or three clicks harder for someone to grab my name, but I don't look at it as lurking behind a pretend name for the purpose of griefing.

Heck, there was one member who goes by his real name who used someone else's name to pull his home address and then Google-Earthed his home...then commented to the other member about it. We're lucky he didn't hit Zillow and report the guy's home value!

Michigan J Frog, on the other hand, has my name, address, home email, etc, and I trust him implicitly. Go figure.

Of the two, which has made a better case for himself and real names vs. board avatars?

I do agree that multiple names would be a creepy thing and I would vote against allowing that. One man, one name likely makes for more honest conversation than anything else!

Heck, Arny opines when Google doesn't give him enough hits. Spare me the name in lights stuff.

(Not stalking anybody)

mdrc
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OK guys!!!! That's enough!! And many thanks for the tips - there's more than enough here to convince me I need to try harder with the gear I already have and the room acoustics - many thanks for your help!

Jan Vigne
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But you don't get to know where to go to stalk me next, because I'm not going anywhere.

I don't get to know ...

... but you just told me where to find you?!!!

Crazy, man, crazy.

Jan Vigne
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Heck, there was one member who goes by his real name who used someone else's name to pull his home address and then Google-Earthed his home...then commented to the other member about it. We're lucky he didn't hit Zillow and report the guy's home value!

"We're lucky"?!!!!!

Thanks, Buddha, thanks a lot.

GEEEEEEZ!

michiganjfrog
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Interesting thought, Arny. Do you suspect that there are people here posting under multiple aliases? If so, please let me know. I have access to everyone's information and I can look into this. As far as I know, there are no current members with multiple aliases.

Sorry, but I always shudder whenever anyone takes Arny Krueger this seriously. When you have seen Arny vocalize the same complaint every single time a new member joined RAO (accusing them of being a sockpuppet or posting under an alias), you quickly realize this man does this as a means of attacking the personal character of his opponents. Type the words "Arny" and "alias", "pseudonym", "sockpuppet" in Google Groups, and you'll get an idea what this is really about.

Arny doesn't really care about multiple "pseudonames" and if he did, he wouldn't have changed his own name so many times over the years, or posted under sockpuppet aliases to bolster his side in his own "debates". You will never see him, for example, attacking jj for posting under an alias (ie. "jj" or "Woodinville"). So in other words, this is simply yet another "debating trade tactic" that Arny uses. jj learned the same debating trade tactic from watching Arny on RAO. Both of them are convinced it's an effective tactic in attacking the credibility of their opponents, and that they have any credibility using it themselves.

I see that "JJ" is happily using his own little "flame-war tactics" by having re-titled the thread "Stalking and harassment by Michigan J. Frog", as an attempt to suggest antisocial behaviour and attack my character. Which is truly a ridiculous accusation AFAIC, since I was in this thread before JJ was, and I can argue he only came here to stalk and harass ME because he didn't like my response to his friend Ethan! It is clearly shown I had no word with JJ in this thread, until he responded to me, with attacks on my character.

"Stalking" is as much a "signature flamewar tactic" of jj's, as "sockpuppets and aliases" is of Arny's. JJ has accused numerous members here of "stalking" him. Which as far as I can tell, he defines as anyone who responds to him more than once. Arny is right when he said upon first coming here, that this is starting to look a lot like RAO. Because there, attack thread titles (like JJ's in this thread, or Arny's in the Furutech thread) were a common flame-war tactic. But it only started to look this way, after jj and Arny started importing their RAO tactics.

Also, if you read his message carefully, you see that Arny is not complaining about individuals posting under multiple aliases, but complaining about how many members of Stereophile post under an alias. The implication being that he claims not to be posting under an alias (and I for one don't know how he thinks he could make that claim), and that he and jj are supposed to be superior to all others here and on forums everywhere in the world, where people are posting under an alias. Despite the fact that they both post under aliases. Go figure.

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I see that the well has been poisoned by outright lies, and intentional, false professional disparagement.

I'm glad you do. That is why I ask that you and Arny leave this forum as quickly as you invaded it, and never darken our door or poison our well again. It will take some time to heal but don't worry, us "audiophools" will be okay in the end.


Quote:
If discussion becomes possible, please let me know.

Not in your lifetime, troll. Don't even ask that when you retitle threads to "Stalking and harrassment by Michigan J Frog" in your organized attack on Stereophile members. I did NOT attack you in this thread, when you came and launched yet another flame war upon me. And to accuse me of "stalking and harassing" you when you came after I did in the thread, and launched character attacks against me?

Is anyone supposed to take you seriously? With attack thread titles like you started, and all the rest of your RAO tactics, you're obviously trying to turn this forum into the flame war haven you know and loved on usenet. Something tells me you and Arny won't succeed at that. Perhaps eventually you will realize that you are only further damaging your reputation in doing so (if possible at this point in both of your trolling careers), and making yourself even less popular and more hated, on the audiophile groups you troll, in an effort to find more converts to join your pseudoscientific religion.

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Ok, sir! Sorry for the dust-up. It looks like you're assembling a great system. (Make sure you don't mix n' match cables from other manufacturers). The usual, take the time to experiment with speaker location. As for the tweaks and the like, you really need to assess that after you live with the system for a while, with a lot of different music at different volumes, and see what it does that you like, and what, if anything, can be improved upon. Important thing is, you have the basis of a good system there.

rvance
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Quote:
OK guys!!!! That's enough!! And many thanks for the tips - there's more than enough here to convince me I need to try harder with the gear I already have and the room acoustics - many thanks for your help!

Another newbie poster scared off by the psycho-wars. Oh the inanity!

j_j
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MDRC, if you have questions, etc, feel free to PM at me. That way we can't be interrupted by people who admit that their only intent is to destroy dialog.

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Quote:

Quote:
If discussion becomes possible, please let me know.

Not in your lifetime, troll.

Please note that "Frog" admits that he only intends disruption and insult, and that his intention is nothing more than disruption.

ethanwiner
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Please note that "Frog" admits that he only intends disruption and insult, and that his intention is nothing more than disruption.


No shit, and if anyone should be banned for being a persistent asshole it's Frog. I rarely suggest people should be banned in any forum. But this guy takes the cake. He offers nothing of value, ever, and has only insults. At least Jan genuinely helps people when he's not bashing me and you and Arny et al.

I understand Stephen is hesitant to ban people, but the Frog really is just a useless troll.

--Ethan

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OK guys!!!! That's enough!! And many thanks for the tips - there's more than enough here to convince me I need to try harder with the gear I already have and the room acoustics - many thanks for your help!

Alright, with that, I'll close this thread. The OP should please feel free to start a new thread if he chooses to share any updates. And, unless I hear otherwise, I'll assume Arny Krueger has no basis for his claim that there are members here posting under multiple aliases.

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