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lionelag
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JA's piece on the Lexicon/Oppo controversy.

Excellent article by JA-- I can confirm that everything he says about DVD tech licensing is true and then some. (I did my master's thesis on whether region-encoding violated international trade law-- somewhere or another, I have copies of the relevant agreements, or at least versions of them dating to the early part of the century. You can't get licensed to do your own DVD player manufacturing without paying the Consortium a huge sum of money which, at the time I did my thesis in 2002, was in the high 5 or low 6 digits-- in dollars-- for initiation and then a substantial payment to the Consortium every year. Maybe Meridian or Arcam can afford those licenses, but not many others. The licenses add a hell of a lot of cost to a player if you're not selling in bulk. There's a reason why universal player prices haven't come down much.)

As ugly as the Lexicon things seems on the surface, I haven't seen anyone talk up the bright side-- Oppo. The fact that their $500 player could be put in a fancy chassis and sold for $3500 is a sign that they've done some very, very good engineering.

David_L
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Re: JA's piece on the Lexicon/Oppo controversy.


Quote:
As ugly as the Lexicon things seems on the surface, I haven't seen anyone talk up the bright side-- Oppo. The fact that their $500 player could be put in a fancy chassis and sold for $3500 is a sign that they've done some very, very good engineering.

Ermmmmmmmm NO it just shows how Lexicon decided to pull the wool over the consumers eyes by doing so. If Oppo decided it's worth $500 then how does placing the guts in a "fancy" cover make it worth $3500? I'd wager to guess it's a combination of some audiophiles accepting anything that is shoved in front of their faces by certain manufacturers just because they have made a "name" for themselves and gullibility. Lexicon got caught trying to pull a fast one.
Maybe if I placed a Mercedes badge on my Toyota then it will be as good? Hey, if no one knows what's in the inside then where's the "harm"? If I sell my rebadged Toyota as a Mercedes some one and I'm guessing it might be the seller might be a bit angry when they find out different.

Orb
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Re: JA's piece on the Lexicon/Oppo controversy.

Interestingly though Lexicon never did try to pull the wool over the consumer eyes, because they mentioned in their forum last year they were using Oppo product.

I am not protecting what they did, but it was not deceit.
However IMO it could had been complacency, which is a trait sadly seen with some management structures.
I provided a link of that conversation in the main Lexicon thread awhile back.
Still shake my head that the management did not fully realise the implications of not communicating better or defining a more realistic profit margin on that product.

What is more bizarre is what the heck were Harman International management doing, especially when you consider ML were also developing their own SACD player and Harman Kardon have their own Bluray disc player.

Sounds like they are keeping these companies more as seperate entities rather than pooling expertise and design-manufacturing in common sense areas.
Thats my feeling on the subject.

Cheers
Orb

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Re: JA's piece on the Lexicon/Oppo controversy.

I knew a guy that plopped a Porche 911 engine in his VW Beetle, and man that thing screamed. That's kind of the reverse process I guess- expensive guts in a cheap chassis!

Jim Tavegia
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Re: JA's piece on the Lexicon/Oppo controversy.

I also remember back in the 70's when Oldsmobile tried to drop Chevy 350's in their cars without a word to a soul. It was soon found out when a new owner needed early warranty repair service and the Olds dealer found out he didn't have the right parts. That was a big whoops and had GM sending out refunds to Olds owners.

HMMMMM? Wonder what might happen in THIS case once owners catch on? I'm just say'in!

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Re: JA's piece on the Lexicon/Oppo controversy.


Quote:
I also remember back in the 70's when Oldsmobile tried to drop Chevy 350's in their cars without a word to a soul. It was soon found out when a new owner needed early warranty repair service and the Olds dealer found out he didn't have the right parts. That was a big whoops and had GM sending out refunds to Olds owners.


Interesting. Eventually, that was(is?) a regular practice.
My '92 Buick Roadmaster has a Chevy 350; great engine! Not as great as my Buick 455, but I digress! No idea what's done with new cars.
As to the topic at hand, I appreciate JA's article this month;very enlightening! Thanks!

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Re: JA's piece on the Lexicon/Oppo controversy.

This sort of thing has been done with cars for generations. Now audio conglomerates are trying it.

lionelag
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Re: JA's piece on the Lexicon/Oppo controversy.


Quote:


Quote:

Ermmmmmmmm NO it just shows how Lexicon decided to pull the wool over the consumers eyes by doing so. If Oppo decided it's worth $500 then how does placing the guts in a "fancy" cover make it worth $3500? I'd wager to guess it's a combination of some audiophiles accepting anything that is shoved in front of their faces by certain manufacturers just because they have made a "name" for themselves and gullibility. Lexicon got caught trying to pull a fast one.
Maybe if I placed a Mercedes badge on my Toyota then it will be as good? Hey, if no one knows what's in the inside then where's the "harm"? If I sell my rebadged Toyota as a Mercedes some one and I'm guessing it might be the seller might be a bit angry when they find out different.

You're missing my point. Sure. What Lexicon did was deceitful. (Though how many players they actually sold before Audioholics called them out is a good question-- probably very few) I'm just fascinated at how the really rather cheap Oppo player was good enough that Lexicon wasn't laughed out of the room before the deceit was revealed. That's good engineering.

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Re: JA's piece on the Lexicon/Oppo controversy.


Quote:
Interestingly though Lexicon never did try to pull the wool over the consumer eyes, because they mentioned in their forum last year they were using Oppo product.

I am not protecting what they did, but it was not deceit.

I don't agree. As I understand, they acknowledged that they were using Oppo's "guts" but claimed they had made audible improvements in the sound quality. All they did was put it in a fancier box. Deceit or snake oil? You be the judge...

Orb
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Re: JA's piece on the Lexicon/Oppo controversy.

Here is the original post I did with the URL:

Quote:
Amir nicely picked up that Todd Packer (Technical Product and Project Manager, Harman High Performance A/V) posted last year on the product before all hell let loose, dated Posted: 19 Sep 2009.
Interesting or informative wording.
http://www.smr-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=323&PN=1
Quoting post:

Quote:
The official Lexicon BD30 post:

Short Answer...Built in America...THX certified...Lexicon Quality and Support...Best Video...Fastest transport...Joe Kane likes it...first shipment expected in late October or early November.
What we bring to the table:

john curl
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Re: JA's piece on the Lexicon/Oppo controversy.

The REAL reason for this, is because of people, like many here, who do NOT believe in audio progress by using better electronics than what is already mass produced. AND they can prove it, with ABX testing, that HK (Lexicon) would regularly use, due to Floyd Toole.
Think about it, you want to make a universal player to sell in a certain price range. What to do? You certainly can't afford to design it from scratch. You MUST take an already existing design and ADD to it. However, REAL HI END people, like AYRE, do MORE, because they believe that what they are doing to the power supply, audio electronics, etc. makes for a better sounding product. Lexicon has no such 'delusions'. All they can do is make the electronics, prettier, faster, and with a better warrantee than a cheaper product. That is what they did, and they NEED a fat differential to feed the corporate coffers. (Trust me, I used to work for HK Intl.) That is why Matti's power amp, three decades ago, became a $5,000 power amp, when $2,000 was expensive for the same item, in the audio business. I laughed my socks off, at the time. And so it goes!

Orb
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Re: JA's piece on the Lexicon/Oppo controversy.

Yep agree.

Cheers
Orb

lionelag
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Re: JA's piece on the Lexicon/Oppo controversy.

It'd actually be a very interesting consumer law case. At least here (Pennsylvania), if Lexicon could show that they did something, anything, to change the unit's sound or operation, they'd probably win, since unreasonable profit is not usually grounds for suit (and that something might just be changing the menus in firmware). Also, given the audiophilic fascination with mass (Lexicon's chassis is much heavier from what I've read), Lexicon might well win if they claimed the new chassis was a "mod" which improved the mass loading of the unit....

Unfortunately for those of us in the Plaintiff's bar, showing the Court a person with money to spare who dumps some on an overpriced piece of equipment does not necessarily prove a consumer fraud case.

JIMV
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Re: JA's piece on the Lexicon/Oppo controversy.


Quote:
Interestingly though Lexicon never did try to pull the wool over the consumer eyes, because they mentioned in their forum last year they were using Oppo product.

'Using the Oppo product!' Good heavens, that is like saying slapping a BMW hood ornament on your Taurus makes it a $50K car...

Orb
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Re: JA's piece on the Lexicon/Oppo controversy.

You missed the point and needs all I said (including the other posts that are part of the same discussion) to be taken within context, I was responding to the comment about Lexicon being deceitful, when the the link I provided showed they were being candid but very careful with their wording.
You did notice I said I do not agree with what they did or how their profit margin was silly

It seems you want to ignore what they said back last year, which when considered makes your last comment regarding cars being only partially accurate IMO.

Thanks
Orb

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