soox wrote:

Hi guys,

After some advice, I picked up the KEF Q300 on sale today ($400 in white - check it out if anyone is interested. Q100 on sale also).

Am doing homework on what amp is appropriate, but I don't understand the technicals yet and know new deals/amps keep coming out.. so wanted to tap into your knowledge! Any suggestions?

Of course, looking for the least expensive amp that gets the most out of the speakers.

Thanks!

I suggest the Music Hall A15.3 amplifier, which is an excellent amp for only $549.

The Cambridge Audio CXA69 would also be a good choice.

We need more info to make a good recommendation. This is really difficult to get right as your request for the best amp to get the most out of them is highly subjective. The style of music you like, size of your room and preffered volume levels are also important. Also, what features do you need. Do you need a DAC or a phono stage? How many inputs? What is your desired budget. Reccomendation will be radically different if you can only spend $500 vs $1000 or $1500 and yes, those speakers are worthy of a $1500 amp.

The deal is, a better quality amp will deliver better sound. Where is the exact point of diminishing returns is different for everyone. I will say those are not ultra efficient so unless you only listen at very modest levels I would avoid 50w and Lower amps but that is just me. You will do no damage but I feel like a bit more power always help a speaker open up a bit.

soox wrote:

Hi guys,

Thanks for picking this up, appreciate the patience as I'm learning as I go.

Someone in best buy recommended the Yamaha rx-v481bl for $400 and it seems to get good reviews online.
5.1 capability, apparently 140w per speaker output (read that the kef q300 take 120wmax), wireless casting and 4k pass through.
I tried to educate myself online but am still not up to par, so I have some basic questions.

This is a receiver, but is it also an amp?
Am I thinking about the wattage correctly?
Can I biwire with it?
Would the kef q300 benefit from upgrading to the 581bl model at $500?
What else am i missing?

Thanks a ton.

I strongly recommend against using a home theater receiver for your system, particularly a Yamaha.

The power ratings you quote are arrived at through bench test procedures that give unrealistic power numbers that are all but fraudulent.

To give one example, I know of a case where a Yamaha rated at 125 watts per channel would not drive a certain pair of speakers without breaking into horrendous gross distortion at higher levels.

A NAD integrated amplifier rated at 35 watts per channel was able to drive the same speakers to very high levels with no distortion whatsoever. That should give you some idea how unreliable and ridiculous Yamaha'x ratings are.

My suggestion is to get either the NAD C326BEE or the Music Hall A15.3 amplifier. Either one of those will sound much better than any Yamaha receiver I know of.

Based on what you are thinking about, you have to make a decision. Do you want a great, two channel system flexibility to have a future 4 or 5 channel system. Commsysman is right in that from a power perspective and ability to drive speakers, integrates will generally outperform receivers.

Also, you should listen to the units if you can. My experience has been that Yamaha amps sound bright relative to other equipment. I have listened to them side by side with NAD driving KEF speakers and can tell you that it will sound bright relative to NAD in a not so subtle way. If you don't listen prior to buying, you should buy with a 30 day return policy.

A DAC is a Digital to Analog Converter. It is what takes the digital signal from Spotify, Tidal or even a CD and converts it to the analog signal that you amplifier and speakers handle. A good quality DAC will improve the quality of your sound.

If you choose to have flexibility to convert to a 4 or 5 channel system in the future, I would look at Denon, Marantz or NAD receivers. The quality of the sound is excellent and they have decent power output. Denon is generally pretty neutral while Marantz and NAD are a hair on the warm side. They will have decent internal DACs and for $500-$600, you will get a lot of value. The NAD T748 or the Denon AVR X2200 would be good choices.

Alternatively, for a two channel system I would encourage you to look at integrated amps. They are preamp and amp combined into one box and frequently have internal DACs and you can add bluetooth adapters.

NAD just introduced a new line and the C368 for $899 looks like a stupidly good value. I have not heard it and I know that sounds odd. Its specs look great and you should try and go listen to it. Again, I strongly advocate against buying something without hearing it first.

The Cambridge audio CXA60 would also be worth looking at. Great feature set and at $799 is also a strong value. I have heard its big brother, the CXA80 and found it neutral, detailed and natural sounding but I like Cambridge's sound.

I know these are more expensive than the receivers but the sound quality when driven hard will be better. And compared to the units that commsysman recommended, Music Hall and NAD 326, if you were to add an external DAC like the Peachtree DAC iTx, you would end up in a similar price range for the same feature set.

Good luck and try and get out and listen to some stuff. I am in NYC and may be able to recco a retailer or two for you to go do some demo's.

A DAC is an essential component in that it is necessary to convert a digital signal to analog. Whether a higher quality DAC is beneficial is debatable. There are several factors and IMO, the least important is the chip. It is all about the implementation and the power supply.

I can say with absolute certainty that a better quality DAC will impact sound. In an extreme example, I have listened to a cheap Sony 5 Disc Changer vs. an external DAC in my Marantz NA7004 network player. The difference was obvious in that the Sony lacked detail and sounded flat. This test was playing the same track from a CD and from a lossless file ripped from that CD and I was able to switch between the two sources on a remote. Now, this was a $99 CD player vs. an $1100 external DAC so you would hope you hear a difference.

Compared to the internal DAC on your computer soundcard, an external will make a difference unless you have a pretty high end sound card. This is why it is optional. Your computer has one as does your phone or tablet. So it isn't essential but it can improve sound.

The Music Hall is a darn nice integrated amp. You will be likely be very happy with it but I would encourage you to get an external DAC to go with it. The Audioquest Dragonfly or Dragonfly RED at $99 or $199 respectively will work well with your PC. A Peachtree DAC iTx for $299 with a bluetooth adapter would be great for your phone.

Combined together, I don't think the Music Hall with an external DAC will top the Cambridge and the feature set on the Cambridge gives you everything you need including a nice DAC and built in Bluetooth. I haven't hear the NAD so I can't say how they will compare with confidence but again, killer feature set and NAD historically has produced awesome equipment.

Regarding dealers, Park Avenue Audio which is at 30th and Park, The Stereo Exchange at 627 Broadway which is just north of Houston and Lyric HiFi which is at 1221 Lexinton Ave are very good, reputable dealers that carry NAD. You will need to call them to see if they have the new integrated available for a Demo. I know Park Ave also carries Rotel and Marantz which are nice products. The Stereo Exchange and Lyric have Peachtree. Stereo Exchange also carries Music Hall.

If you go to NADs website, they have a good dealer search. I can personally vouch for those three retailers but there are many others listed. I have been to Park Avenue Audio and The Stereo Exchange in the city. I have only been to the Lyric up in Westchester.

I do not know of a Cambridge Audio dealer in NYC. I heard the CXA80 at a friends house. One option would also be to call Crutchfield and ask there POV and compare of the CXA60 vs the C 368 as they carry both and have a 30 day return policy.

Exactly how much you spend is always a debate. 1.2x for an amp, well what about a DAC or bluetooth adapter? What is the ratio there? It is subjective. I have no good answer.

I personally spent $4750 on an amp and preamp to power a $1500 pair of Revel Performa 3 M105 speakers. What I have since learned is that those (and the Kef LS50s) are rule defying speakers and way outperform the price point. I can's say that about the Kef Q300s as I have never been a particularly big fan of that speaker. That is my personal taste though and my opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it. And that is the thing to remember, what is good and worth the spend is all very personal to the individual. This is why I strongly advocate you go do some listening.

I am not saying it is worth spending 3x as much but I would also say if you are trying to "future proof" your system, then you would want to consider things that are not entry level and accept that you are spending above what maybe those Q300s would justify.

Additionally, I would argue that the Music Hall, NAD and Cambridge units are directly competitive items when you consider the feature sets. The NAD and Cambridge are more expensive due to extra features that I think you could benefit from and to add those features to the Music Hall would definitely cost the difference and then some. That being said, none of the three is adequate to drive the Kef LS50s. You can drive them with lower power without damaging them but you will fall far short of what they are capable of.

As an analogy, my speaker is similarly spec'd to the Kef LS50 and has similar power needs to the Kef's. I was driving them with a Rega Brio R which is a highly regarded, 50w integrated amp. At relatively modest volume levels the sound would just go flat and sound hollow. Now, the Brio easily drive my B&W M-1s and they actually sounded better at higher volumes than the much more expensive Revel's. The issue was that I wasn't delivering enough power. I connected an old Carver 100w amp and heard a monstrous difference despite it being less refined. Sound was full and open.

For the Kef LS50s, you will want to look at 90w or 100w units. Something like the Rogue Audio Sphinx or the Musical Fidelity M3 si would be the minimum I would buy to drive them adequately. Again, you won't damage them with a lower powered amp but you won't get the most out of them. Think ~$1400 - $1500. Now, either of those units will extract every last drop of performance out of your Q300s but you would be perfectly comfortable upgrading to a much nicer speaker in the future.

I live in a NYC apartment and know your issue well. 0dB should be the volume level you would experience in a movie theater. That is pretty loud for music and should be about 80dB if you ran the dynamic EQ system on it. It is probably a little louder based on speaker efficiency and the fact that you probably have a small room.

I find Yamaha amps bright and fatiguing to listen too. This can be heard in a sort of rough edge to sounds, particularly when listening to higher pitches and instruments like horns. Additionally, the nuance and detail should be enhanced with a better quality amp & speaker combo. In soundtracks it will be easier to understand speech and in music you will hear nuances in instruments and improved clarity with vocals.

That being said, the Yamaha is a discreet amp meaning that each channel is processed separately as opposed to a chip amp which tends to be super muddy. This will mean that the benefit in stepping up to a higher end integrated at lower volumes won't be as obvious. Listen to a really inexpensive (say $149 Sony) and you will know what I am talking about. Your primary benefit with an NAD and Cambridge will be in more natural and less bright sound and a smallish increase in detail. This will be most obvious in soundtracks and in more subtle music like classical. Additionally, the NAD, Cambridge or Music Hall will be able to handle higher volumes or speakers that are more demanding.

If you ran an RCA cable from your PC to the music hall vs an RCA cable to the NAD or Cambridge, I think the sound profile and level of detail would be very similar. An RCA Cable to the Music Hall vs a USB cable to the Cambridge or NAD where you use those DACs, the Cambridge or NAD would sound better. If you were add Dragonfly or Peachtree DAC iTx to the Music Hall, then they would be back to sound equal.

FLAC files burned from CDs are no better than Tidal. Tidal will sound a little better than 320K Spotify

My experience with Bluetooth and with Apple's Airplay is that I don't hear a lot of sound degradation. When it was first introduced, both suffered a bit and you could definitely hear issues. But they have come a long way in bandwidth delivering improved stability and in the flawlessness of the data transfer. For anything that is CD quality and under (16/44.1) I can't hear a difference.

The most important thing you can do is go listen or do an in-home demo which is best. You won't know exactly how something sounds till you get it in your room. If you can do that, you will land on some great equipment and be very happy with your system.

I like banana plugs. That brand seems to have issues gripping the cable base on the reviews. I use Monster brand and find them just fine. if you get these to work and get a good connection, I doubt you will have an issue. Another set would be fine or alternatively, I do really like the monster plugs and they aren't that expensive.

I am not a big believer in ultra expensive speaker wire and plugs. I use monster largely because Best Buy and Radio Shack carry it. I have never seen any persuasive evidence expensive speaker cable makes a difference and have never been able to hear a difference. Just my opinion though. Other folks vehemently disagree with me.

Based on all the evidence I hav seen, the key is having speaker wire made of oxygen free copper of an adequate gauge. Under 25ft, shielding is arguably irrelevant. This is based on conversations I have had with pro dealers and when you dig into this on the web. Again, some people here will disagree and will tell you they hear noticeable differences.

soox wrote:

Hey bierfeldt,

Thanks again for the help. Assuming I go with the Cambridge CXA60 and play over bluetooth from my phone or laptop with the Q300s, what is your take on speaker wires and banana plugs?
In a hurry I got the bestbuy brand which based on specifications alone should not be a bottleneck, but wanted to see if you think any gains here would be noticeable. It's easy for audiophiles to go "best buy, please" so I wanted to hear your typical balanced thoughts.

https://www.amazon.com/Rocket-Speaker-Cable-Banana-Plugs/dp/B001AECBP2/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1477156640&sr=8-5&keywords=rocketfish+speaker+cable

The Cambridge amplifier should be very good.

The main thing with the wire is to use 14 gauge or larger and make sure it id PURE COPPER, not the "CCA" (copper-coated-aluminum) garbage that is frequently sold.

Excellent copper speaker wire and gold-plated banana plugs are available at low prices from Monoprice.

Monoprice #13715 is 50 feet of #14 pure copper speaker wire, for around $15.

Monoprice #2943 is a pair of gold-plated banana plugs with a thumbscrew to secure sire to them. $1.49/pair.

I know EXACTLY what you are talking about I dealt with it when I moved into the city.

There is a little bit of a burn in period on an amp so let it play for as long as you possibly can, even while you aren't at home and you need to refine your speaker placment. And when I say refine, I mean be methodical and take notes.

The more neutral, less forward sound of the Cambridge will require a hair more precision in placement. Consider distance from the wall, toeing angle and consider tilting the speakers back just slightly. You also live in the city and if your floors are as slanted as mine, it could take some effort to get it just right. I needed a level to get this just right.

For instance, I moved in February and bought OEM stands for my Revels vs having them on top of bookshelves 7' in the air in my old setting. I was shocked at how lifeless / warm they sounded despite my new space being far less damped. I went out and demoed a few speakers thinking the Revels were just not going to work in my space but before giving up on them I spent a weekend tweaking placement and had the idea to tilt them back just a hair (raised the front feet of the stands 1/4" maybe) from the aesthetic of the Wilson - Verity - Vandersteen Treo and the speakers came to life. Changed the whole dynamic of my sound and I am back in love with them.

With a forward amp, your placement might have been perfect and had you had a more optimal placement for your Cambridge, you might have found the sound harsh and fatiguing.

Adjust your toeing angle methodically moving a degree at a time. Pick a track you love and listen to it repeatedly. Adjust the width of the speakers if you can. Wider is typically better, but not always. I get optimal sound between 6' and 8' with mine, anything further causes my soundstage to shrink. Alter distance from the walls which will give you different bass and consider tilting the speakers back slightly if they are at ear level or forward if they are above ear level. Use the same track or tracks and take notes.

You will likely find a spot that will work better. If you set them up with the Yamaha and found a spot that sounded harsh or unpleasant, go back to it because it will probably sound good with the Cambridge.

I know this sounds odd but you will be amazed what small changes in direction and angle can have on sound in the whole room.

That is great to hear! There is definitely a burn in period for most equipment. Both the speakers and the amp will have a burn in period and you will likely find that after a good 500 hours of play time they will have burned in most of the way. I know that sounds like a lot but just think that these will steadily continue to sound better and better.

Hi bierfeldt, I'm sorry to hijack this thread but it seems like you know your way around this stuff pretty good. I'm fairly new to all this, so I'd like to have your opinion on a few things if that's cool with you.

I recently bought a pair of KEF LS50's and my use case, music and input choice is pretty much the same as OP's. So I'd like to stream music from my phone over bluetooth or with a network audio player I already have from previous adventures.
Can you give me a few recommendations regarding amps or receivers? I had my eyes on the Cambridge CXA60 but you mentioned that one would need something with more power if I recall correctly?

Yeah, so I would really appreciate your input on this and thanks a lot in advance! :)

Oh, and money is a little tight, so it would be great to stay under or around the $1000 mark...

They are inneficient though which is why 60w is a little light for power output. With a lower power output amplifier, the sound gets thin. It won’t hurt the Kef’s but they need more power to open up and sound great.

In that price range I am a BIG fan of the NuPrime IDA-8. At $995, fits your price point perfectly and is an awesome sounding amp that will pair perfectly with those Kef’s. The NuPrime is a hybrid class D and class Ds tend to be a bit less costly than A/B counterparts for similar quality and power output . There are a variety of reasons for this.

Two other interesting units and are available from Cambridge and NAD. The NAD C 368 for $899. Nice amp with a good feature set and 80w of power. The Cambridge CXA 80 is $999 and also 80w. Both will be adequate to drive and will sound good.

If you order them on-line you should be able to get any one of them with a 30-60 day return policy if you don’t like it. I think all three are available from Audio Advisor.

Thank you so much for the fast reply! I'll definitely check them out, and the NuPrime one seems to have rave reviews.

So thanks for your detailed explanation and suggestions, you're awesome! :D