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dbowker
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Inflation? Or inflated?

For the sound and overall design I've been a big fan (and owner) of Well Tempered Labs turntables for quite some time. In fact I haven't found a reason to change for almost twenty years, though cartridges and phono pre-amps have come and gone along with every other piece of gear.

Just a year ago the Well-Tempered Reference TT and arm went for around $6578, which was actually up from just a few years before. The design has not changed for more than ten years, so even then I thought it was steep, despite it being a great product. Fast forward maybe 9 months and now it's up $9,450! Wow- a little good press and some general buzz sure changes things. Too bad it's again the exact same product from 10-15 years ago. If I do decide to trade up some day, it'll be a company that actually KEEPS innovating, not one that just milks old work and then raises the prices for fun.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Inflation? Or inflated?

Well Tempered has a relatively new table that has been reviewed as one of the best from any manufacturer and sells for under $3k.

Likewise, VPI has their revisionist table that is under $3k - which actually goes against the grain of many VPI innovations over the past twenty years - that is being touted as one of the best despite the TNT still selling for thousands more.

Do you prefer the Subaru WRX or the Lambourghini?

Scott Wheeler
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Re: Inflation? Or inflated?

Do you prefer eating Taco Bell gorditos under an umbrella in 90 degree heat or watching a bad movie on an Ipod while sipping Dr. Pepper?

Buddha
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Re: Inflation? Or inflated?


Quote:
For the sound and overall design I've been a big fan (and owner) of Well Tempered Labs turntables for quite some time. In fact I haven't found a reason to change for almost twenty years, though cartridges and phono pre-amps have come and gone along with every other piece of gear.

Just a year ago the Well-Tempered Reference TT and arm went for around $6578, which was actually up from just a few years before. The design has not changed for more than ten years, so even then I thought it was steep, despite it being a great product. Fast forward maybe 9 months and now it's up $9,450! Wow- a little good press and some general buzz sure changes things. Too bad it's again the exact same product from 10-15 years ago. If I do decide to trade up some day, it'll be a company that actually KEEPS innovating, not one that just milks old work and then raises the prices for fun.

Hey, man!

Did Well Tempered mention any mechanical change to go along with the price hike? Maybe an upgrade?

If not, oh well - your resale values just got better!

Same thing happens with wine after good reviews; and for both wine and Hi Fi it makes me kind of glad when something I like doesn't get reviewed!

The same Bozos who jump on a piece of Hi Fi gear because it got an "A" are the ones who say things like, "I only buy 100 point wines."

I think there is more audio nirvana to be found by a hobbiest who finds the best sound at a given price point than there is searching for the best sound without considering price and being a slave to 'ratings.'

Regardless of price, this is still an idiosyncratic hobby. In wine and Hi Fi, the ratings whores are only trying to impress others, not themselves - which leaves them seeming kind of empty.

Scott Wheeler
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Re: Inflation? Or inflated?


Quote:

Quote:
For the sound and overall design I've been a big fan (and owner) of Well Tempered Labs turntables for quite some time. In fact I haven't found a reason to change for almost twenty years, though cartridges and phono pre-amps have come and gone along with every other piece of gear.

Just a year ago the Well-Tempered Reference TT and arm went for around $6578, which was actually up from just a few years before. The design has not changed for more than ten years, so even then I thought it was steep, despite it being a great product. Fast forward maybe 9 months and now it's up $9,450! Wow- a little good press and some general buzz sure changes things. Too bad it's again the exact same product from 10-15 years ago. If I do decide to trade up some day, it'll be a company that actually KEEPS innovating, not one that just milks old work and then raises the prices for fun.

Hey, man!

Did Well Tempered mention any mechanical change to go along with the price hike? Maybe an upgrade?

If not, oh well - your resale values just got better!

Same thing happens with wine after good reviews; and for both wine and Hi Fi it makes me kind of glad when something I like doesn't get reviewed!

The same Bozos who jump on a piece of Hi Fi gear because it got an "A" are the ones who say things like, "I only buy 100 point wines."

I think there is more audio nirvana to be found by a hobbiest who finds the best sound at a given price point than there is searching for the best sound without considering price and being a slave to 'ratings.'

Regardless of price, this is still an idiosyncratic hobby. In wine and Hi Fi, the ratings whores are only trying to impress others, not themselves - which leaves them seeming kind of empty.

I can't say that I have ever heard of a price increase as a direct result of a good review. I think it is unfair to *assume* that in the case of Well Tempered Labs. There may be other factors.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Inflation? Or inflated?

As usual, Scotty, you don't get it.

dbowker
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Re: Inflation? Or inflated?

"I can't say that I have ever heard of a price increase as a direct result of a good review. I think it is unfair to *assume* that in the case of Well Tempered Labs. There may be other factors. "

To reiterate I love the products they have made, so I have no bone to pick. I'm just annoyed and skeptical.

OK- it COULD be something else, but here's how it looks to me: For years the company itself didn't really exist- the name and 3 products were licensed to be manufactured by an outfit called Stanalog. So basically no upgrades, no R&D, no marketing, but a very stable price that just moved with inflation.

For over 12 years at least I saw no reviews in print- maybe no even online. Then 4 years ago or so seemingly out of no-where comes one in Stereophile, about the lower priced version: the WT Record Player. A great review, and it subsequently gets a Class B rating in the annual review. Then, seemingly out of no-where, we see a moderate but sizable price hike of about 25% within six months. Then they drop the mid-level table, The Classic, which I own. Then about year ago, we get the buzz of this new version Buddha just mentioned, which looks intriguing and has gotten some renewed interest.

Now, suddenly a BIG price hike for the Reference. It's made of Fountainhead (like Corian) which over the years has become very inexpensive, brass, and little carbon fiber (yes, it's gone up some, but over many years, but down from when it first came out) and the same excellent motor from years ago, and some magic secret sauce platter material, which was always pricey. My theory is buzz, plus the need to have a wide price point spread, has pushed the Reference into "reference" prices (OK -way lower than real refrence, but high for mortals). Seems either designed to help push the new one or just a tad greedy IMO.

dbowker
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Re: Inflation? Or inflated?

Jan:

I never knew anything about Lambourghini until I saw a PBS special on the company recently, and if given the chance, I'd take one in a second! An amazing company of highly motivated artisans using state of the art manufacturing. Those things are like the pinnacle of art an science.

In the meantime we just got a new Audi A4 and that thing is pretty nice too- without being several times the price of a house!

Buddha
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Re: Inflation? Or inflated?


Quote:
Do you prefer eating Taco Bell gorditos under an umbrella in 90 degree heat or watching a bad movie on an Ipod while sipping Dr. Pepper?

Wow, cooling off to 90 would be great!

The real answer is, "Sometimes one; sometimes the other."

I'll take the variety.

For me, better to have a whole range of experiences and sometimes flop rather than have the same experience every time, even if that would be top 10%.

JoeE SP9
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Re: Inflation? Or inflated?

Although you are probably an audiophile. You're not a motor-head. Not a value judgment, just an observation. I've been a fan since their first cars. Lamborghini was started by an unhappy Ferrari customer. He started out making farm tractors. Audi currently owns Lamborghini.

Scott Wheeler
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Re: Inflation? Or inflated?


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As usual, Scotty, you don't get it.

No, I get that you are an idiot.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Inflation? Or inflated?

You always resort to the ad hominems first, don't you, Scotty boy?

You could have tried, "What don't I get?", but, no, you had to be insulting. You could have tried to make this a discussion but, no, you decided it was better to go punch someone you don't like.

So, when do you graduate from grade school, little boy?

Scott Wheeler
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Re: Inflation? Or inflated?


Quote:
You always resort to the ad hominems first, don't you, Scotty boy?

Nope. I just respond in kind. apparently you can't count past one. But you are an idiot so that is no surprise.


Quote:
You could have tried, "What don't I get?",

You could have tried something with substance instaead "you just don't get it." As if I will ever be your Ed McMahon.


Quote:
but, no, you had to be insulting.

what goes around....


Quote:
You could have tried to make this a discussion but,

But I know you lack the smarts to engage in any kind of "discussion."


Quote:
no, you decided it was better to go punch someone you don't like.

You feel like you were punched? You know what they say about throwing rocks while dwelling in a house of glass?


Quote:
So, when do you graduate from grade school, little boy?

Oh ouch, I am crushed by your razor sharp wit.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Inflation? Or inflated?

Another forum "friendship" has been cemented - in your case, Scotty, line by line and half sentence by half sentence.

How's the research on "mechanism" going? You still don't understand the concept?

(OOOOH, that should get a biting response!)

Scott Wheeler
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Re: Inflation? Or inflated?


Quote:
Another forum "friendship" has been cemented - in your case, Scotty, line by line and half sentence by half sentence.

How's the research on "mechanism" going? You still don't understand the concept?

(OOOOH, that should get a biting response!)

You mean the "friendly energy patterns ?" Looks like bullshit, smells like bullshit, must be bullshit. Glad *I* didn't step in it.

Scott Wheeler
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Re: Inflation? Or inflated?

Back to the actual thread topic


Quote:
"I can't say that I have ever heard of a price increase as a direct result of a good review. I think it is unfair to *assume* that in the case of Well Tempered Labs. There may be other factors. "

To reiterate I love the products they have made, so I have no bone to pick. I'm just annoyed and skeptical.

OK- it COULD be something else, but here's how it looks to me: For years the company itself didn't really exist- the name and 3 products were licensed to be manufactured by an outfit called Stanalog. So basically no upgrades, no R&D, no marketing, but a very stable price that just moved with inflation.

For over 12 years at least I saw no reviews in print- maybe no even online. Then 4 years ago or so seemingly out of no-where comes one in Stereophile, about the lower priced version: the WT Record Player. A great review, and it subsequently gets a Class B rating in the annual review. Then, seemingly out of no-where, we see a moderate but sizable price hike of about 25% within six months. Then they drop the mid-level table, The Classic, which I own. Then about year ago, we get the buzz of this new version Buddha just mentioned, which looks intriguing and has gotten some renewed interest.

Now, suddenly a BIG price hike for the Reference. It's made of Fountainhead (like Corian) which over the years has become very inexpensive, brass, and little carbon fiber (yes, it's gone up some, but over many years, but down from when it first came out) and the same excellent motor from years ago, and some magic secret sauce platter material, which was always pricey. My theory is buzz, plus the need to have a wide price point spread, has pushed the Reference into "reference" prices (OK -way lower than real refrence, but high for mortals). Seems either designed to help push the new one or just a tad greedy IMO.

Your reasoning is sound IMO but ya gotta admit there are a lot of unquantified variables in play here. I'd like to hear Well Tempered Labs explain the price hike before I make any accusations.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Inflation? Or inflated?

A curious mind never rests. You, on the other hand ... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Buddha
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Re: Inflation? Or inflated?


Quote:
Back to the actual thread topic


Quote:
"I can't say that I have ever heard of a price increase as a direct result of a good review. I think it is unfair to *assume* that in the case of Well Tempered Labs. There may be other factors. "

To reiterate I love the products they have made, so I have no bone to pick. I'm just annoyed and skeptical.

OK- it COULD be something else, but here's how it looks to me: For years the company itself didn't really exist- the name and 3 products were licensed to be manufactured by an outfit called Stanalog. So basically no upgrades, no R&D, no marketing, but a very stable price that just moved with inflation.

For over 12 years at least I saw no reviews in print- maybe no even online. Then 4 years ago or so seemingly out of no-where comes one in Stereophile, about the lower priced version: the WT Record Player. A great review, and it subsequently gets a Class B rating in the annual review. Then, seemingly out of no-where, we see a moderate but sizable price hike of about 25% within six months. Then they drop the mid-level table, The Classic, which I own. Then about year ago, we get the buzz of this new version Buddha just mentioned, which looks intriguing and has gotten some renewed interest.

Now, suddenly a BIG price hike for the Reference. It's made of Fountainhead (like Corian) which over the years has become very inexpensive, brass, and little carbon fiber (yes, it's gone up some, but over many years, but down from when it first came out) and the same excellent motor from years ago, and some magic secret sauce platter material, which was always pricey. My theory is buzz, plus the need to have a wide price point spread, has pushed the Reference into "reference" prices (OK -way lower than real refrence, but high for mortals). Seems either designed to help push the new one or just a tad greedy IMO.

Your reasoning is sound IMO but ya gotta admit there are a lot of unquantified variables in play here. I'd like to hear Well Tempered Labs explain the price hike before I make any accusations.

It may also be a case where the product kind of languished at its price point and kept the company's doors open, but didn't provide enough revenue to move forward with other ideas, etc.

Perhaps, even at the 'pre-inflation' price, the product may have been good, yet moribund.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Inflation? Or inflated?

Most high end manufacturers depend on subcontractors for parts and some times labor. Possibly a prime contractor closed or had problems and another contractor was brought on board which resulted in a price increase.

Yes, you can look at this with a positive slant that says the resale just went up. Better that than being the owner of a Dodge Ram who took the $7k rebate and then wonders why their $28k truck is now worth $7k less than the vehicle that didn't have any rebates. People do dumb things all the time, the best you can do is to try to be ahead of the deal.

Scott Wheeler
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Re: Inflation? Or inflated?


Quote:
Most high end manufacturers depend on subcontractors for parts and some times labor. Possibly a prime contractor closed or had problems and another contractor was brought on board which resulted in a price increase.

Yes, you can look at this with a positive slant that says the resale just went up. Better that than being the owner of a Dodge Ram who took the $7k rebate and then wonders why their $28k truck is now worth $7k less than the vehicle that didn't have any rebates. People do dumb things all the time, the best you can do is to try to be ahead of the deal.

so to sumarize the OP is complaining of price hikes by Well Tempered Labs that he believes are based in pure greed and has made him decide to look else where for any future upgrades to his TT and your response is if he bought a Dodge Ram with a rebate he still would have gotten a bad deal. I would add that if he were to go to McDonalds for lunch he would get a bad meal to boot. Am I wrong?

Jan Vigne
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Re: Inflation? Or inflated?

Are you wrong?

Oh, on so many levels and in nearly every instance - yes! Very much so! You are not only wrong but you are not even in the line to get into the ballpark. More than that you are too intellectually lazy to go find out where the line actually starts or how to get there.

You obviously have a comprehension problem.

Scott Wheeler
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Re: Inflation? Or inflated?


Quote:
Are you wrong?

Oh, on so many levels and in nearly every instance - yes!

I see so you think he can get a quality meal at Mcdonalds. figures.

Jan Vigne
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Re: Inflation? Or inflated?

See? These leaps of stupidity are what get you into the pickles you always end up in.

KBK
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Re: Inflation? Or inflated?

manufacturing costs have increased drastically over the past 2 years.

And when one gets a product in a marketing channel so that is is properly supported -so there can be actual sales and product on display for people to actually HEAR before buying it-... all that adds to costs via the creation of another marketing level. Sometimes the manufacturer can and does get ~LESS~ for each product that goes out the door when 'proper' distribution is enacted, this at the same time the retail price goes ~up~.

Such is life.

As stated, costs (on and at all levels of execution-be it machining or the materials costs) have risen dramatically over the past few years.

Some companies are at the point of going out of business -just by trying to hold the line with current pricing, to keep it so the public does not reject the product due to NECESSARY price increases, increases in retail pricing that are being held back.

In the end, to survive, many of us have to simply increase the retail price.. as if we don't... we simply won't have any business at all. We'll be out of business. Our costs vs what we get for the product will be too close together and we won't have enough dineros to put food on the table.

So a smart man/company raises the prices in a timely manner --or ---has nothing at all.

Check out the story on Hovland for more thoughts on how this 'goes down'.

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