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cyclebrain
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I wasn't done discussing skinny single speaker wires


Quote:

I assume you are laying blame at my feet that the thread was split. Might I remind you that had dup not made several inappropriate posts this would all have been one thread and no editting would have ocurred. Thank you very much!

So, I have a speaker with a far more constant impedance and very low electrical phase angle (only slightly inductive due to the presence of a voice coil - sorry, just can't get away from that at this price) compared to RR's and yet you prefer, for your own reasons, to suggest my system suffers from errors you quite easily dismiss in RR's system and that I am listening through a flawed system while RR is not. How interesting.

Thank you for letting me know you are an infrequent visitor.


No intention of placing blame on the double thread deal.
Had no idea what was up with that.
Again you misunderstand my point about interaction between components.
A speaker that is considered a difficult load is rated so not because of its variation in impedance, but because of its minimum value of impedance. As a speakers impedance becomes lower, the effect of the amplifer output resistance begins to have a larger influence. If the impedance value of a speaker is all over the place, but high in value relative to the amp, than there will be little interaction.
If the impedance of a speaker is flat, then source impedance will be a non issue.
I am not saying that any one amp or speaker is better or that any one is inferior. But I am saying that certain combinations will not work well together.

Jan Vigne
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Re: I wasn't done discussing skinny single speaker wires


Quote:
A speaker that is considered a difficult load is rated so not because of its variation in impedance, but because of its minimum value of impedance.

Not necessarily so. A very stable four Ohm load with minimal phase angle should be fine for most anything better built than an $89 Insignia receiver from Best Buy. The exception being the current crop of class D & T amps which just don't sound right with a low impedance load. Obviously most amplifiers would rather work into a high impedance load than a low impedance load, but the impedance alone is not the problem in most cases. The combination of impedance and electrical phase angle will be the determining factor when deciding whether a particular speaker will be "difficult" to drive. A relatively high overall impedance with a highly capacitive phase angle can still be more difficult to drive than a consistent four Ohm single driver.

http://www.symphonysound.com/articles/tubefriendly.html


Quote:
If the impedance of a speaker is flat, then source impedance will be a non issue.

My speakers are very consistent loads.


Quote:
I am saying that certain combinations will not work well together.

Agreed.

cyclebrain
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Re: I wasn't done discussing skinny single speaker wires

Damn, you are correct about phase angle also being a possible important factor in speaker/amplifier compatibility. I was trying to keep things as simple as possible.

As I'm sure you know based on your post, the low pass filter used on the output of a class D amplifier to remove the RF from the audio signal is affected by the load presented by the speaker.
Also, I'm sure that you are familiar with the work of Bruno Putzey and his class D amplifiers which are unaffected by load impedance. Of course they do this by using that cursed feedback.

CECE
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Re: I wasn't done discussing skinny single speaker wires

PUTZey? you gotta be kidding, right? Large current needs copper. Better amps deliver large current. Speakers dip below 4 OHM down to 2, need amps that deliver. Nothing PHASES a great amp. Is that why I have 12 MOSFETS in teh output stage for these beasts? Single driver can NEVER NEVER deliver full range reproduction, unless of course physics is now irrelavant, which sometimes it is in bizzaro world. Single drivers have been talked about for 50 years, no ones been able to make it happen. Henry Kloss, a speaker guru AR, Advent, Cambridge Audio, now plant food, went with 2 ways, also trying to get a single driver to do it all. Can't be done, of course he was dealing with materials available in his time. If you listen to a LARGE ADVENT now, it sounds like crapola, but at teh time it was a good speaker. Speakers have improved big time, but there is no way to make a single driver do it all. Not even using under sized wires to hook them up. If this idea could work all the pro "flying" columns could be reduced to single drivers, saving lotsa money and space and stuff. And Legacy could reduce the Whispers to a bookshelf speaker. And a BLOSE would actually sound like live music, non of that is happening, which proves single drivers ain't either. My closk radio has a single driver, that's why it's a clock radio.

Jan Vigne
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Re: I wasn't done discussing skinny single speaker wires

Cyclebrain, I would like to carry on this discussion but it is worthless with dup sticking his nose into everything to ramble inanely on. He got the first portion of the thread screwed up and shut down, then did the same with the second portion. Now he still can't keep his mouth out of something he knows nothing about. I honestly don't know how to have a real discussion on this forum at this point. The ignore function isn't sufficient when you have rudeness that displays real pyschological problems.

Try this:

My experience with class D has been limited to subwoofers. I've tried two different class T amps, the basic SI and the Autocostruire (AudioDigit) kit. The Italian amp allows the builder to put together options which allow for various levels of performance. The amp is constructed to minimize the effects of the "digital" amp's weaknesses but I used a 12VDC sealed lead acid battery for the PS and had no problems that I could detect. Granted, the Autocostruire is low powered but with the right speakers, efficient mimimal crossover designs, the sound was impressive. I sent a friend home in tears after he'd just spent large dollars on a Linn system.

cyclebrain
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Re: I wasn't done discussing skinny single speaker wires

Don't let it bother you. You can always chose not to read posts. To put in perspective, at least it's just text, just imagine if he was sitting next to you in person. See, not so bad.

One argument against the Hypex feedback solution is that a well designed amplifier shouldn't need fixes applied.
I have two Hypex amps on the way (UCD400) and to dispense with this whole speaker cable issue I plan to attach the amp modules directly to my speakers. I will now have to run power from the power supply. Probably won't be using 32AWG.

Elk
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Re: I wasn't done discussing skinny single speaker wires

Great discussion, guys!

Keep going!

I just wish I had something more useful to add right now other than simple encouragement.

Jan Vigne
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Re: I wasn't done discussing skinny single speaker wires


Quote:
I have two Hypex amps on the way (UCD400) and to dispense with this whole speaker cable issue I plan to attach the amp modules directly to my speakers. I will now have to run power from the power supply. Probably won't be using 32AWG.

Yeah, you need lots'o'copper for current from a big honkin' power supply. AMPS!!! That's what it's all about - AMPS! Get some big ol' 0000 guage from the back of a TXU truck. Can't have enough copper or enough amps! Run a line directly from the pole - get it from your neighbor's house! Buy a generator. You need copper and AMPS! Whaddaya think? 400 Amps gonna be enough? Probably not. Need more copper. Need more amps. Wnat SLAM!!!!!!!!! ...

Wait, class D?

Never mind.

rmck818
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Re: I wasn't done discussing skinny single speaker wires

Note: Webmaster, please forgive me for posting on this topic but my post is honest and serious, thanks.

OK gentlemen, I am to lazy to plod my way through all the pages of chaff on this topic, I hope you will provide me with the wheat, or at least a kernel of truth. . .

Although skeptical, I want to try this cable. . . style shall I call it? Skeptical since 30 gauge wire is smaller than the speaker fuse elements of one amp I have (12 amp fuses, 150 Watts/8 Ohms). Regardless, I am serious about this, so:

What gauge would you recommend? I am only trying this for speaker cable at this time.

I've read about the tape method for handling the wire. Is that a good method, or what about wrapping it around something, say a standard speaker cable, used just for it's shape?

What is the best termination method? I prefer and use spade lugs but could use bananas or whatever. I am a DIYer so I can solder, crimp, etc. Will a good soldering iron burn off the insulation?

Although I have been a member of the huge gauge cable club, I am also discovering a whole new world of audio joy in non-audiophile approved equipment, like high sensitivity compression horn drivers, large diameter midrange drivers, huge floor standing vented enclosures that somehow disappear and image like only mini-monitors are supposed to. So as long as I'm off the beaten path and loving it, help me in my quest of non-by-the-book High End sound.

Thanks very much.

Jan Vigne
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Re: I wasn't done discussing skinny single speaker wires

If you only intend to try the cable as speaker hook up, you only need the $4.95 package of magnet wire from Radio Shack. Try the various gauges supplied, 30, 26 and 18 A.W.G. A bare wire connection is best. You can either scrape away the lacquer coating or use a moderately hot iron to remove the coating on the cable ends only. Using an iron will leave the lacquer on the iron's tip and this must be removed before any other use of the iron. Use the tape method to separate the cable legs. Keep the runs as short as possible. The amplifier must have a reasonably low output impedance and the speaker must maintain a fairly high and consistent impedance.

If you like what you hear, page back to the beginning of the thread for my instructions on building DIY interconnects from the magnet wire.

Elk
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Re: I wasn't done discussing skinny single speaker wires

And don't forget to report back!

rmck818
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Re: I wasn't done discussing skinny single speaker wires

Thanks very much J.V. for the instructions, I hope my Rat Shack still has such a kit of magnet wire, they have changed so much recently, plus the staff, Oy Vey! I had bought a computer related item there recently, and later went back for some L-Pads for a speaker project, and when I asked the young man for the L-Pads, he took me back to the computer parts section. He did not know what an L-Pad was. Alas, they had none anywhere, 'though I did find some decent power resistors elsewhere in the store.

The 18 gauge sounds (pun) to big for this purpose, plus Stereophile has included Sam Telligs recommendation of this wire for years now (who, pray tell, has listened to it recently, a criteria for inclusion in Recommended Components) so we already know it's good right? My Revel Performa M20s are 4 Ohms so not a good choice, plus I'm afraid to experiment on them. I have several other victims. . . er, candidates in mind, and an old but trusty Adcom amp should work well, although I suppose my Krell would have enough protection circuitry to protect it.

And yes Elk, I will report back, and I know you all will provide warranty repair coverage in the unlikely event anything should go wrong, right? Right? Hello, anyone there??

Jan Vigne
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Re: I wasn't done discussing skinny single speaker wires

The amplifier is unlikely to need any "protection" due to the thin gauge speaker cables unless you intend to run 50' of cable to each speaker. The admonition for relatively high impedance speaker loads is due to the interaction between the amplifier's output impedance and the speaker's load impedance. If the amplifier's output impedance is sufficiently low, the speaker load is less important. I would, however, avoid running these cables where high current is required to properly drive the speaker. A four Ohm speaker might dip low enough or have sufficient phase issues that these cables might be problematic. Only one way to find out.

rmck818
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Re: I wasn't done discussing skinny single speaker wires

I'm seeing a few caveats based on sensible electronics theory and reality, all well taken. What then might be the mechanism or theory for the "micro wire" speaker cable (as I like to call it) to work well? The high resistance seen by the amp may cause it to function easier and thus sound better. Certainly the current capacity limitation could be a negative regarding sound quality. Since there is no magic, how this wire works, if it does, might answer a few other audio "mysteries" as well. Thanks much for the advise.

LocoMoco
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Re: I wasn't done discussing skinny single speaker wires

Mahalo Jan! Using 30 gauge for my speaker wires have improved my sound quality significantly. It replaced my Kimber Cables with better detail, soundstage, and transparency. I continued to replace my IC with using both 26 and 18 for ground. Adding the thin wire IC just compounded into better clarity. My wife noticed the improvement as well. I was just about to upgrade from my modest setup. I may just hold off that upgrade a bit longer, as I'm enjoying the music again.

Jan Vigne
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Re: I wasn't done discussing skinny single speaker wires


Quote:
Using 30 gauge for my speaker wires have improved my sound quality significantly.

Are you using anything special or just RS magnet wire?

Jan Vigne
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Re: I wasn't done discussing skinny single speaker wires


Quote:
What then might be the mechanism or theory for the "micro wire" speaker cable (as I like to call it) to work well?

I'm not selling this stuff, so I don't have to come up with theory. My guesses are the lack of a traditional dielectric and the minimal inductance and capacitance of the cable. There have been several replies that tell me L & C are not of any concern at audio levels. These same people inidcate they hear differences in cables but, when I ask what accounts for those differences, they cannot or will not supply even so much as a guess. That then ventures into the land of mojo if you hear a difference but have no explanation, even a poor one, for why there is a difference. So take that for what it's worth. Other than that, my preference for this cable is in line with my overall dislike for thick cables. Every cable I've used over the last twenty years has been on the thin side and I find less to like as the gauge gets fatter. I don't expect anyone to necessarily agree with me, just try the cables and judge for yourself. To let you know, my tube amplifiers have a reasonably high output impedance compared to a typical solid state amplifier but my single driver speakers have a very consistent eight Ohm impedance with no capacitance in line with the driver and the cable runs are as short as possible.

Elk
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Re: I wasn't done discussing skinny single speaker wires

Very Cool, LocoMoco!

What amp and what speakers? Perhaps we can figure out what setups favor the thin stuff.

cyclebrain
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Re: I wasn't done discussing skinny single speaker wires

While I can't and won't argue quality of sound differences becuase I haven't compared, I can tell you that by using 30 guage wire you will reduce the damping factor of your system and also increase the effect of your speakers impedance curve on the flatness of your amp.
If that distortion to the signal cuases an improvement in the sound then either accuracy is not a good thing or these distortions to the signal are hiding some other undesireable element in our data.

Jan Vigne
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Re: I wasn't done discussing skinny single speaker wires

I didn't realize reduced damping factor and frequency response errors were considered "distortions". How can you guarantee more copper will result in more accuracy? If the damping factor on paper is quite high, will reducing it be a serious "distortion"? Do we really require a Bob Carver type 1000:1 damping factor? If we begin with 1000:1, will reducing the damping factor by way of 30 A.W.G. cable significantly alter the sound quality? What will we end up with in that case? 925:1 damping factor? Aren't there more serious distortions to consider in a loudspeaker other than the effects of damping factor? If the speaker/enclosure is somewhat overdamped, won't the reduced damping factor actually improve the sound? If the amplifier has no negative feedback loop, a somewhat popular concept in high end audio, wouldn't that likely affect the damping factor of the amplifier also? If the cable results in a 0.5dB error at 10kHz, and the room is responsible for a 3dB error at 10kHz, which is the worse "distortion"? If the room is considered worse, then shouldn't we do away with the room? Or should we just get a heavier room?

LocoMoco
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Re: I wasn't done discussing skinny single speaker wires


Quote:
Are you using anything special or just RS magnet wire?


Just the RS magnet wire. I first replaced my Kimble Cable with solid core CAT5e cable and that was an improvement in itself. The RS magnet wire provided much better detail in the upper range where the previous cables sounded a bit more muddy. It presented a much clearer sound overall. I'm no expert, just that I did notice an improvement in SQ and I'm satisfied with it.

Elk. Like I said, I have a very modest setup that would not be worth keeping tabs on. My 20+year old HK PM-655 int amp, Polk 5B monitors, twisted Kimber Cable, and Sony CDP-307esD. I'm ready to upgrade to a Plinius 9100, Totem Forest, and Rega Apollo. I'll probably get this new system and move the old gear to another room.

rmck818
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Re: I wasn't done discussing skinny single speaker wires


Quote:
I didn't realize reduced damping factor and frequency response errors were considered "distortions".
.
.
.
If the cable results in a 0.5dB error at 10kHz, and the room is responsible for a 3dB error at 10kHz, which is the worse "distortion"? If the room is considered worse, then shouldn't we do away with the room? Or should we just get a heavier room?

A bit of a reality check, that statement is. I was facinated by the FR plots in JA's measurements of low amp output impedance into the simulated speaker load causing FR deviations. I had never before seen this and felt it must have some significance regarding "tube amp sound", which usually have lower output impedances.

Recently, as I measured levels with an SPL meter of various speakers, I was surprised to see the large peaks and valleys in my room, mostly in the bass and lower midrange region, even measured in the near field. That with all transitor/high damping factor amps. Recently JA began including in room FR curves of speakers in the reviewers listening room, which look fairly uneven or at least have several large peaks or dips. So as JV points out, the room is the largest culprit in butchering flat FR, and yes, we should get rid of the room!

I will say that the term distortion as was used by cyclebrain likely meant any change or modification to the signal, and that it is not a negative, unpleasant, unwanted type of change as the term distortion usually implies.

Jan Vigne
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Re: I wasn't done discussing skinny single speaker wires


Quote:
I had never before seen this and felt it must have some significance regarding "tube amp sound", which usually have lower output impedances.

Tube amps typically have a higher output impedance at any given frequency vs. a solid state, direct coupled amplifier. Do remember there are transformer/autoformer coupled solid state amplifiers also as well as output transformer-less tube amplifiers. And, the upside of tube amps it you usually get to choose which transformer tap you think gives the best results. That is impossible on a direct coupled tansistor amplifier where you gets what you get.

cyclebrain
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Re: I wasn't done discussing skinny single speaker wires

Some very good points here.
Distortion is any deviation from the origional signal.
It can be harmonic, frequency response, I.M., transient, slew induced, ringing.
The point about relative values of amplifier/speaker response compared to room response is a very good one.
Room response has such a large value compared to almost anything else.

tcdn97he
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Re: I wasn't done discussing skinny single speaker wires

Well, I've read through this and previous threads discussing single wires. I've found my way out into the dull light of day. I'm fascinated/utterly confused. I'm the guy enjoying his huge upgrade in turntable from plastic Kenwood to the Music Hall MMF-5. The rest of my gear consists of a NAD 3130 integrated amp and ADS L470 speakers and a nondescript Sony CD changer.

Nothing in my system is point-to-point anything. However, what can I do (aside from upgrading the amp and speakers) with cabling to improve my system? I'm using a little Monster here, a little 12 gauge there. I'm looking for an intermediate fix. Something to bring out the "best" in my current setup. (And, if you want to give me some ideas for amp and speaker upgrades, go ahead.)

Jan Vigne
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Re: I wasn't done discussing skinny single speaker wires

I wouldn't pair 30 A.W.G. cables with the ADS speakers. Try some Home Depot extension cables or some Kimber.

cyclebrain
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Re: I wasn't done discussing skinny single speaker wires


Quote:
I wouldn't pair 30 A.W.G. cables with the ADS speakers. Try some Home Depot extension cables or some Kimber.

I must disagree with Jan on this. Lowes wire sounds much better than Homo Depots wire.

Not serious. You will have to make your own conclusions on this stuff. We here are all way too biased to be of any real help. Make yourself happy.

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