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Kingsley
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I think cables are over priced

It seems to me that, while cables are important to get the best from equipment, they are less so than the other components of a system.
I am running Sonus Faber Cremonas on the end of a Naim 102/180 system, and was recommended Cardas Quadlinks that would have cost me four times what I finally paid for 'Signal' cables that I found on the Stereophile audio market pages, but which I have never seen reviewed in the mag. I wonder why not, as these cables are very clearly excellent and most appropriate to my setup?
It seems to me that the differences between cables, while they may be audible, are really not in proportion in real world terms to the huge difference in prices, and this is a gripe that I would aim at 'accessories' and tweaks in general.
Most of us have mortgages, wives, families, and, at least here in Europe, there are many of us still who do not want large amounts of credit hanging around their necks. I suspect that much of the esoteric high end is supported by easy credit availability in the US!

schalliol
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Re: I think cables are over priced

Cables are overpriced, even the consumer cables are marked up 100% at retailers. I guess the goal would be to find cables that provide the best quality of the money you pay.

ludwigvan968
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Re: I think cables are over priced

The cable industry has gotten way out of hand... The prices they are charging is highway robbery, but util we stop buying they will keep selling!

marcelo
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Re: I think cables are over priced

Sure they are. Margins may even be higher than 100%. A cable is a cable is a cable...why pack it in (expensive?) wooden jewel boxes? Makes any sense when all other audio rig is packed in regular paper boxes with styro?
I hear there is a MIT speaker cable costing as much as 36,000 Eur (that's 43K folks!), now I'd say that spending 40k in loudspeakers is great, but further 40k just to make it sound right?? Are we gone nuts? (allright, that's extreme, but real!).

"Reference" series all over means "the best" right? Implies, the more we spend, the better it gets. So, spending 3k on interconnects (this is more down to earth, right?) on a 3k CDP makes sense? no? But...if I don't spend 3k I won't get the best cable! So my brand new 3k CDP will not sound as great as the manufacturer says, because it needs the cable...
My conclusion: I've spent my share on cables, trusting talks of improvements, synergies...etc...only to hear nothing but the dealer's cashreg bell.
I'm done with it, wouldn't buy a cable worth a cent more than what a Pro application cable is worth.
brgds, marcelo

ohfourohnine
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Re: I think cables are over priced

Like you, I have Sonus Fabers and avoid credit. Generally I agree that cables and interconnects are overpriced. I've always tried to select them carefully to find good performance for the money. Not long ago, however, after a good day at the track, I splurged on a Cardas cable upgrade for my Sennheiser 600's (what I listen to when sitting at this computer). Now one would suspect that the Sennheiser folks wouldn't have scrimped on the stock cable. Maybe they didn't, but Cardas sure did a lot better job - unbelieveably better. I don't like to think about it too much for fear I'll do something silly and costly with my main system.

bollo
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Re: I think cables are over priced

I do think that the issue of cables cost is "central" take a look at the URL: http://www.videohifi.com/16_introinterview.htm and follower links I do think these pages could help to understand....

marcelo
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Re: I think cables are over priced

Good (great) link, it will take some time to go through all the links Francesco, but I'll do it asap.

However, one line on your introduction makes me wonder:

(with your permission, I'm quoting a passage)
"I think that few add-ons can modify the sound of an equipment like cables do"

What's wrong with this?
IMHO, and will all due respect, I have a hard time to accept that my system's sound can be modified by simply xchanging cables.
Again, to me it is a matter of simple common sense.

Show me a loudspeaker manufacturer (whether boxes or drivers) that specifically states (or even implies) his own boxes won't perform according to its specs unless used with the right cable choice, much less one that points wich one is the right choice. At its best, they say "sufficient gauge".
If the measured performance is there, how can be modified by changing a cable? Are we then equalizing the sound somehow?
Because, unless we modify the signal, no audible changes can be heard, and if a cable modifies the signal, it is doing something that not even the preamp is supposed to do...

I'm absolutely lost with such statements, cannot understand nor find a reasonable explanation.

Hope to find something within the links provided that makes me curious again. So far, I was there, came here, and couldn't get back.
brgs, marcelo

bollo
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Re: I think cables are over priced

Dear Marcelo, in my experience good cables, 'cos of being good with different technology and material used, act as equalizers and they are different, sometimes really different, the real problem is the price to pay not the effect we all hear easily.... If you and all the friends of this forum will read the interviews I have made to cables manifacturers well I think you'd have more to tell about....

marcelo
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Re: I think cables are over priced

Ciao Francesco!

Now I think we are getting to the core of the issue:

"in my experience good cables, 'cos of being good with different technology and material used, act as equalizers and they are different, sometimes really different"

It is absolutely impossible for me to understand a set of cables (bare cables) can equalize a system.

Listen, does a cable measures different one end from the other? no? If we put a pink noise signal (or whatever) at one end, do we get the same at the other? yes? then that wire or cable is doing its job. Period.
If it modifies de signal measuring differently, then chances are that it is broken somehow or shorted or something.
To me, it is fundamentally wrong to use an interconnector cable (wich is what all cables are) as an equalizer.
magic boxed cables:
If we need those fancy 5-50$k cables in a box with an equalizer inside we are not talking about a cable anymore, but a real life equalizer with its interconnections attached and fixed at each in/output.
And, I'd say that instead of spending a fortune on cables, let's go buy a regular digital equalizer, and tune our room or system as many times as we want with as many types of music as we listen or care to, instead of being "boxed" and having to try 30 different brands of "equalized cables".
Francesco, I'd think that it is easy to agree on something fundamental to our hobby:

we do not ask our cartridge to do the RIIA correction
we do not expect our CDP to have a phono section and a selector

then...
we cannot accept to have our cables do anything else but what it is supposed to do, convey a signal from A to B without loss and without dearing modifying.
Any other function should be done by the specific piece of gear that was designed to do that.
If people wants to equalize the sound, why use a cable? It will cost more, it works by trial and error, and the satisfaction is never guaranteed...

Prices: I think I still keep the empty carcases that was the housing of a famous XLR interconnect I had.
I dismantled it and found a zobel and plenty of glueish material solidified (it weighed its own! fancy box!).
How much an XLR Balanced Music Link Plus costs?
I have another pair of interconnects with a box, XLR, I could dismantle it and take some pics if you ask me to, should we find out what's inside?
Worse yet, does it sounds different on my system? No. Unfortunately with or without magic boxes, brand X or Y or Z, it does not makes any difference.
Wich is now what I want a cable to do, nothing, but when I bought it, when I eat raw what reviews and ads said, when I listened to friends saying the marvels it did, I thought it could make a difference...stupid me!
Because using XLRs for interconnects, 100$ each (maybe even less) is all what I should have paid, not thousands of bucks!.

Sorry if it sounds as ranting, it is not meant as such, but I cannot see the logic behind all these cable thing, honestly.
brgds,
Marcelo

disco paul
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Re: I think cables are over priced

Cables...what a whole lot a rubbish. This whole speaker/power/interconnect thing is tragically so much snake oil. You want good speaker cables, go to Home Depot and buy those 10 or 12 gauge cables you can cut to the length needed. Power cables...what a joke. If power cables really fixed anything then that tells me the electronics ahead has a poor power supply. Interconnects, quality cables from reputable companies can run less than $20.
Save the money for where it matters, cartridges, speakers, etc.

ludwigvan968
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Re: I think cables are over priced

So are you all saying that you really do not think cables make a difference??? I mean like I posted before I believe many audiophile cables are over priced, but to say that cables do not make a difference is the essence of the word "ignorant"! If you have not heard the difference between cables you truly do need to go out and have a listen to some good HiFi's, that said, it doesn't cost a lot of money to get your hifi proper cable.

disco paul
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Re: I think cables are over priced

I think they use to say Paul Klipsch wore a button that said BS in reference to audio cables. I share that sentiment.
My system isn't a half a million dollar rig though I have heard some cable swaps on some expensive stuff in audio salons. I didn't consistently hear a difference. Any very subtle difference could be attributable to me moving my head position for example.

adagio
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Re: I think cables are over priced

There are a number of things in any hobby that is "overpriced". If you belive that there is no difference, do not buy the product! Nobody is holding a gun to your head. As long as someone is prepaerd to pay the price there is a market and the price is right.
Is a Mercedes overpriced? A Porsche?
Perfumes, Single malts or boats.
There is always a right price, as long as there is demand.
Price is no real isssue, it have nothing to do with reality, at least not when we are talking about hobbies.
I pay for a product that i like, I have my limited money for this hobby. There is a feeling when you buy someting expensive, that "this is exclusive, rare"
Is cables overpriced? No, they are priced.

marcelo
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Re: I think cables are over priced


Quote:
So are you all saying that you really do not think cables make a difference??? I mean like I posted before I believe many audiophile cables are over priced, but to say that cables do not make a difference is the essence of the word "ignorant"! If you have not heard the difference between cables you truly do need to go out and have a listen to some good HiFi's, that said, it doesn't cost a lot of money to get your hifi proper cable.

Here we go....

so saying that I do not hear differences makes me an ingorant? An also a poor one?
Did anyone here said that those who bought cables thinking it did make differences were ignorants?

Talk about the facts, not my ears or my wallet pal.
Expose here what are the differences and the method you used to discover those. Wich cables and wich system?

Otherwise, your post is lame and not useful to anyone but yourself, as a means to insult other members that unlike you, can keep a worthy level on this debate.

marcelo
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Re: I think cables are over priced

It is absolutely right, nobody holds a gun to my head to buy one or the other thing.
Maybe we are getting down to the isse? that is, we buy expensive (cables) because we like expensive items that have attached a label reading "exclusive". I buy that idea. Indeed, it is pretty much what I've done with a couple of items on my system.

But, why then try to explain that a certain brand/model is doing something else than just being expensive, thus, exclusive?
I don't mind owning things that could have costed a lot less and give me the same objective satisfaction, but the subjective satisfaction of owning the expensive brand and the means to buy it decided against the cheaper but equally effective one.
Again, what I don't try to do is justify buying this or that by insistently saying that those who doesn't are deaf.
brgds, marcelo

ludwigvan968
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Re: I think cables are over priced

You all are missing the whole point, I feel you all are trying to take my comments all personally. I am sorry if I hurt anyones feelings. I am not trying to offend anyone, I was just trying to make a point that cables do make a difference, whether you all believe or not is another story:)

That said, cables do make a difference, that is one of the things that got me interested into hifi when I was 15 (circa 1995), I had a marantz CD45 CD changer and Marantz Amp 2238B with Marantz speakers(circa 1975), I upgraded my cables that came with the marantz changer to some Monster cable and heard a huge difference in the sound. Not only did I hear it, but my brother, father and many other people who I made listen to some A/B comparisons at the time.

I have since learned a lot about hifi, if it really matters to you where I learned my theory and background, you can read my personal site that is linked to my profile.

Again, I really am sorry if I offended anyone that is not my intent. I hope everyone is having a great weekend and look forward to hearing everyones response.

Scott Wheeler
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Re: I think cables are over priced

Show me a loudspeaker manufacturer (whether boxes or drivers) that specifically states (or even implies) his own boxes won't perform according to its specs unless used with the right cable choice, much less one that points wich one is the right choice. At its best, they say "sufficient gauge".

From the Martin Logan CLS II user manual.
"Use the best speaker cable you can! 16 gauge zip-cord is the minimum you should use, and higher quality cables, available from your specialty dealer, are recomended and will give you superior perormance!"

If the measured performance is there, how can be modified by changing a cable?

Doesn't this question assume that the manufacture does it's measurments with an "inferior" cable?

Are we then equalizing the sound somehow?
Because, unless we modify the signal, no audible changes can be heard, and if a cable modifies the signal, it is doing something that not even the preamp is supposed to do...

You are assuming that the belief of many, that poor/cheap cables actually do more to distort/modify the signal and the better "high end" cables are doing less is simply wrong.

I'm absolutely lost with such statements, cannot understand nor find a reasonable explanation.

I think it is due to entirely different fundamental beliefs about cables.

Hope to find something within the links provided that makes me curious again. So far, I was there, came here, and couldn't get back.
brgs, marcelo

ludwigvan968
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Re: I think cables are over priced

Some good example of HiFi groups who recommend using specific cable with their equipment are as follow:

Linn
Naim
Cyrus
Rega
Rehdeko
DNM

If you notice something about these guys, their cable isn't super expensive and their systems are about playing the tune proper. If you have not had the chance to hear a couple of these brand properly setup, check them out just for fun, you might be suprised.

marcelo
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Re: I think cables are over priced

No offense taken. Just waving a flag before it reaches there where noone likes to, personal comments about how clever or stupid we are because we do this or that should not be a part of an argument.

According to my own experience, in my own system, cables have not done the slightest change to sound.
I have tried, as I explained above, several makes, and always hoped (who doesn't!) to hear those improvements a lot of people talk about.
Unfortunately, my system never reacted (at least so far) to a cable swap, sighted and / or unsighted tests.

brgds, marcelo

marcelo
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Re: I think cables are over priced

Use the best gas you can!
Use the best toothpaste you can!
Use the best whatever you can...
is that an argument?
ML is being unspecific, ask Jim Power @ Martin Logan and try to get him to specify what they understand as good cable...he'll tell you the same as the manual: sufficient gauge for the application, "good quality".
What is good quality? Where is the threshold of a good quality cable? 100$? 1000$? 10000$? Is that for a cable made in the US, in China, in Germany? What brand?

Does your CLS's extends its FR if you use a "high quality" cable? Does flattens the response? You get to modify ML's designed response curves? All that with a wire? C'mon, let's get real. If you can do it, ML can do it too.

Look, you talk about belief, I talk about real situations. Therefore, I think that we cannot continue simply because we are not talking about the same subject.
If you want to discuss if a cable does something or not, we cannot bring in beliefs and faith to the discussion.
brgds, marcelo

marcelo
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Re: I think cables are over priced


Quote:
Some good example of HiFi groups who recommend using specific cable with their equipment are as follow:

Linn
Naim
Cyrus
Rega
Rehdeko
DNM

If you notice something about these guys, their cable isn't super expensive and their systems are about playing the tune proper. If you have not had the chance to hear a couple of these brand properly setup, check them out just for fun, you might be suprised.

Are they reccomending their own or some other manufacturer's cables?

brgfs, marcelo

ludwigvan968
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Re: I think cables are over priced

that post is mine, thought I was signed in.

carl valle
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Re: I think cables are over priced

I use what the pros use, HOSA!

adagio
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Re: I think cables are over priced

I

dcrowe
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Re: I think cables are over priced


Quote:
I
adagio
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Re: I think cables are over priced

I think that the luodspeaker is more like the road with it

res0goan
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Re: I think cables are over priced

Who can say what is overpriced. There really is not a benchmark for price of cables. If you go to the headroom.com site and click on cables. How could the cardas cables for the senn 580 at 4 feet be the same price as the 10 feet? I must be missing something....can someone enlighten me??

Buddha
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Re: I think cables are over priced

Just for yucks, I once bought some of that old fashioned looking wire with the black fabric around it that looks like someone's gramma knit it.

Like old space heaters used to have.

Sounded terrible, no highs, no lows, just awful.

So, I figure if crap wire can make a difference, maybe really really good wire can, too.

Then the argument moved to whether or not there is a point of diminished returns at the other extreme.

No universal answer, I guess that's up to each of us and our systems.

However, some of these cable costs reek of hucksterism in terms of physics and economics, or maybe that's just me. But then I can't imagine a 350,000 dollar amp being worth my attention in either of those realms, either. So, I agree about the lack of perceived value. Once cables start to cost more than components and they start in with with the mystery of being bathed in light, etc...I know P.T. Barnum must not be too far away.

What I wanna know is how some garden hose thick cable manages to claim sonic superiority when it has those little teeny connectors at each end.

dons
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Re: I think cables are over priced

My favorite is massive, over priced power cords that won't stay plugged in despite how much money (hype) was spent on the terminations. The IEC connection system is tragically flawed mechanically and the wall outlets aren't much better so how can power cord prices be justified if the performance is guaranteed to be compromised by poor/loose connections?


Quote:
SNIP>>>>What I wanna know is how some garden hose thick cable manages to claim sonic superiority when it has those little teeny connectors at each end.

dcrowe
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Re: I think cables are over priced


Quote:
I think that the luodspeaker is more like the road with it
Scott Wheeler
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Re: I think cables are over priced


Quote:
Use the best gas you can!
Use the best toothpaste you can!
Use the best whatever you can...
is that an argument?

Were you looking for an argument? I thought you were looking for an example of a speaker manufacturer that claims high end cables will improve the performance of their speakers and I gave you one.

ML is being unspecific, ask Jim Power @ Martin Logan and try to get him to specify what they understand as good cable...he'll tell you the same as the manual: sufficient gauge for the application, "good quality".

Doesn't really matter that they are not being specific about brands. The claim is clear something better than 16 gauge zip cord will substantially improve the sound. That claim is quite clear and quite specific.

What is good quality?

According to Martin Logan something better than 16 gauge zip cord.

Where is the threshold of a good quality cable? 100$? 1000$? 10000$?

What makes you think thresholds are based on price?

Is that for a cable made in the US, in China, in Germany? What brand?

They don't specify. That makes sense to me. Why alienate all other manufacturers by specifically naming one or a few?

Does your CLS's extends its FR if you use a "high quality" cable? Does flattens the response?

I don't know. Never did any measurements.

You get to modify ML's designed response curves? All that with a wire? C'mon, let's get real.

Talk to the folks at Martin Logan. The claim is theirs.

If you can do it, ML can do it too.

If I can do what?

Look, you talk about belief, I talk about real situations.

No you talk about belief and I talk about real situations. You believed something about the claims of speaker manufacturers and I showed you the facts don't support that belief. Sorry if it bothered you.

Therefore, I think that we cannot continue simply because we are not talking about the same subject.

You asked for an example of a speaker manufacturer that claims high end cables substatially improves the performance of their speakers and I cited a real world example. Why all the hand waving about not us not talking about the same subject? My response was a direct answer to your challenge. It was exactly on subject. Deal with it.

If you want to discuss if a cable does something or not, we cannot bring in beliefs and faith to the discussion.

Well now you are changing the subject. I suggest you reread your post and my response to that post.

adagio
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Re: I think cables are over priced

Devon> Yes you

stealthaxe
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Re: I think cables are over priced

Power cables are a joke and not a joke at the same time. Here's why:

If you buy an expensive power cable only to plug into a regular outlet in your house, you've got 3 feet of heaven connected to maybe 50 feet of nightmare.

What I did in my house was to run an entirely new set of 8/3 outdoor wiring from the box all the way to the stereo. Low resistance high current outlet. New grounding rails in the power box. Now I can put a new power cable and see some improvement, but seriously, it's not the few feet from the wall to your amp that matters!!

Stealthaxe

dcrowe
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Re: I think cables are over priced


Quote:
Power cables are a joke and not a joke at the same time. Here's why:

If you buy an expensive power cable only to plug into a regular outlet in your house, you've got 3 feet of heaven connected to maybe 50 feet of nightmare.

What I did in my house was to run an entirely new set of 8/3 outdoor wiring from the box all the way to the stereo. Low resistance high current outlet. New grounding rails in the power box. Now I can put a new power cable and see some improvement, but seriously, it's not the few feet from the wall to your amp that matters!!

Stealthaxe

What about the miles of power line between the power station and your house?

adagio
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Re: I think cables are over priced

Like all cables, try first, if you dont hear a difference dont buy. There are a number of powercords on the market and I tried some. I can say that there is a difference in sound although small differences.
I

stealthaxe
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Re: I think cables are over priced

[quote
What about the miles of power line between the power station and your house?

Yes, well, there is that as well, but it's considerably larger and not likely the bottleneck.

Stealthaxe

stealthaxe
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Re: I think cables are over priced


Quote:
Like all cables, try first, if you dont hear a difference dont buy. There are a number of powercords on the market and I tried some. I can say that there is a difference in sound although small differences.
I
adagio
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Re: I think cables are over priced

Cool. I

bollo
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Re: I think cables are over priced

Special - Hi-fi Cable Manufacturers Speak:

http://www.videohifi.com/16_introinterview.htm - Introduction by Francesco Bollorino
http://www.videohifi.com/16_RISCH_ENG.htm - Jon Risch of Cables Asylum
http://www.videohifi.com/16_AUD_ENG.htm - Jim Aud - Purist Audio Design
http://www.videohifi.com/16_BAIRD_ENG.htm - Drew Baird - Moon Audio
http://www.videohifi.com/16_BLAKE_ENG.htm - Adam Blake - Pear Cable
http://www.videohifi.com/16_BLUME_ENG.htm - Israel Blume - Coincident
http://www.videohifi.com/16_BYBEE_ENG.htm - Jack Bybee - ByBee
http://www.videohifi.com/16_CARDAS_ENG.htm - George Cardas - Cardas
http://www.videohifi.com/16_COHEN_ENG.htm - Joseph Cohen - PranaWire
http://www.videohifi.com/16_DEFILIPPO_ENG.htm - Roberto De Filippo - Boomerang

http://www.videohifi.com/16_HILL_ENG.htm" - Steven Hill - Straight Wire
http://www.videohifi.com/16_IMAI_ENG.htm - Kiyoaki Imai - Audio Tekne

http://www.videohifi.com/16_JENVING_ENG.htm - Tommy Jenving - Supra
http://www.videohifi.com/16_KIMBER_ENG.htm - Ray Kimber - Kimber Kable
http://www.videohifi.com/16_MCDONALD_ENG.htm - John McDonald - Audience
http://www.videohifi.com/16_MCGOWAN_ENG.htm - Paul McGowan - Ps Audio
http://www.videohifi.com/16_PAISLEY_ENG.htm - Ted Paisley - CablePro
http://www.videohifi.com/16_SOMMOVIGO_ENG.htm - Chris Sommovigo - Stereovox
http://www.videohifi.com/16_STINTON_ENG.htm - Tim Stinson - Luminous Audio Technology
http://www.videohifi.com/16_STRASSNER_ENG.htm - Hans M. Strassner - HMS
http://www.videohifi.com/16_WALSH_ENG.htm - Kevin Walsh - Homegrown Audio
http://www.videohifi.com/16_WOODLAND_ENG.htm - Rob Woodland - Eichmann
http://www.videohifi.com/16_WYNN_ENG.htm - Anthony Wynn - Element Cable

disco paul
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Re: I think cables are over priced

Oops, I'm the anonymous here. Forgot to login.

Buddha
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Re: I think cables are over priced


Quote:
The science behind this cable stuff has a name...Intelligent Cables

That's killer funny!

I myself prefer "Intelligent Falling" to "gravity."

I also really liked the idea of only using good wire for that last two meters of my speaker cables.

Good humor, thanks!

Monty
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Re: I think cables are over priced

I certainly agree that the high priced cables are the biggest rip-off in high-end audio...by a factor of about a gazillion. However, most cable manufacturers incorporate a reasonably consistent sound in their lower priced cables. The law of deminshing returns starts at very modest prices in cabling, imho.

Having said that, I absolutely, positively hear differences in cables. Not always profound differences, but sometimes the difference is like night and day. If you don't hear the differences then nothing anyone says is going to change your mind on cabling.

In general, I have found that solid core cable sounds better than stranded cable. I don't know why and I don't really care why. I do care that I can hear differences. But, I also think I hear differences in my system when the lights are out and when the relative humidity changes.

Feel free to consider me nuts, my wife certainly does.

carl valle
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Re: I think cables are over priced

Surely you make a joke...
The humidity thing, I can see that might be true, but the lights? What about a flashlight? And also, is it better or worse? My room has blinds but that is to improve the contrast on the screens.....

Monty
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Re: I think cables are over priced

I'm only half-joking. I'm sure it has much more to do with altering my subjective mood rather than altering any sonic characteristics of the gear. However, it do (sic) make a difference, even if only in my ability to enjoy the music I'm spinning. Think of it as a tweak.

DOM
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Re: I think cables are over priced

"If a chain is no stronger than It's weakest link" How does adding expensive hose size cable between an amplifier that has only thin printed circuits improve the connection to the speaker or it's sound .16 or 18 gauge lamp cord should do the job .

stealthaxe
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Re: I think cables are over priced (banana)


Quote:
"If a chain is no stronger than It's weakest link" How does adding expensive hose size cable between an amplifier that has only thin printed circuits improve the connection to the speaker or it's sound .16 or 18 gauge lamp cord should do the job .

I'm sorry if your amp only has thin printed circuits. This is not always the case, especially in the final power stage.

jkalman
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Re: I think cables are over priced

The lights affecting his perception of sound makes sense if his outlets and his lights are on the same circuit, which at some point in his house/apartment they are, but the closer they share the same line, the more difference it would make as electrical lines in a house take smaller draws off the houses main ampage trunk as they are split from that main trunk. If his house/apartment does not have a huge power line, or that particular circuit which his equipment is on, then he is fighting for power with anything that is potentially functioning on that circuit and drawing power from it. The same goes for the total Amp draw of the house...

It also makes sense if electrical draw is not the issue. There is always the question of sensory deprivation. When one or more senses are deprived of sensory input, the other senses that are being used become more sensitive. This can be recognized when you walk outdoors in pitch dark. You cannot see, but your hearing becomes more acute.

Monty
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Re: I think cables are over priced

This should amuse or abuse some sensibilities regarding cables. I'm a working stiff that can barely afford to pay attention, but I'm not hesitating to put my money where my mouth is regarding the sonic characteristics of cables.

jkalman
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Re: I think cables are over priced

I've found the site on this thread to be useful for these issues:

Thread Link w/ Website Link

carl valle
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Re: I think cables are over priced

It is possible that room lighting could indeed place a load on electrical wiring. But on the same branch circuit, we are talking about 15A at 125V on a 20A circuit breaker. If they are not on he same breaker we are talking at least 25,000 watts of ac available at the panel and 50,000 watts if its a modern house. I work at a major electric utility company and our practice is to put 4 or 5 homes on a 7,200V 50KVA center tapped transformer. There is about 250,000 watts available. This of course assumes the neighbor doesn't have his stereo on a the same time. It also assumes your panel wouldn't fireball if you tried to draw that current. If turning room lights on electrically affects the sound of a stereo, then you have a serious and dangerous electricl problem. On the other hand, I have an amp, that has such gigantic transformers and caps in it, it does flicker the room lights because of inrush current. It does not bother the lights under normal operation. The difference here is that lights, if we are talking about incandescent, are resistive loads, while huge amps are inductive. Inductive loads cause the power factor to change. In the case of the home wiring it is possible, but not likely that other large inductive motor loads such as refrigerators, pool pumps and air conditioners could momentarily cause enough phase change as to slow a turntable (a synchronous belt drive) or drop voltage through a power supply for an instant. This is the reason for CRT televisions to lose picture size when a room air conditioner starts up. But if the hifi is 'fighting' for power with all the other stuff one of two things should happen - either the circuit breaker or fuse should let go, or the wiring should melt. Short of that, measure the ac voltage and then turn on the lights. Unless they are ballast types, or transformer powered LV types there will be no voltage drop at all. If they are inductive the voltage drop is really a phase angle change and happens for the first 1/2 cycle.

Now what could really be happening? How about a SCR dimmer that could do something to the emi in the space maybe even rf. I have a pair of VCR's that change the level of the FL display and are brighter (noisier) with the light levels higher. It is possible the lights, even if they are incandescent themselves buzz. Some LV lighting has pulse power supplies that people have claimed make noise. I have Lutron 1500W remote dimmers on the spots in my ceiling over my desk, and over various other points in the room. My wife can hear the ultrasonic noise they make even though I can't.

As far as sensory deprivation, I think you are off track a bit here. While it is true that people deprived of eyesight do develop a better sense in other areas, this takes a long time to learn. It is not something you do automatically. I think you would find in your experiment, that when you walk outside in the pitch dark, your hearing does not become more acute, but you may hear details in specific sound because it is quieter at night in the dark.
To veryify this listen to your system while looking at your hand. Close your eyes and open them again. The sound will not change.

Reed
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Re: I think cables are over priced

I was reading on a certain online dealer's web site about how cables were overpriced and measurments told the whole story. They publish the statistics on the web site for the Beldin cables that they sold. I purchased a pair, since they were inexpensive.

They sounded flat. I tried blind testing, and they sounded flatter.

I then purchased a pair of Audience AU24s ($400/meter pair). They were a striking improvement.

I was talking and was visited at home by a local, well respected, audio designer/manufacturer. I listened to his own "brand" of interconnects, which he sells ($65/meter pair), that will be that last brand of interconnects that I will ever purchase.

People that think the cables make no difference are fooling themselves. I have learned by example that they do not have to be expensive.

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