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CECE
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How is this possible to do what is claimed?
ohfourohnine
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

Why don't you try them, Carl? If they don't work, MusicDirect will take them back, and you can write a caustic letter to Jonathon Valin. What fun for you!

CECE
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

Caustic, or mere questioning how it is possible? Do you think it's possible? How does moving a wire off a floor and putting it on this piece of ceramic which is on teh floor!! Lower NOISE? And all them otehr claims, just using some logic aquired over teh eyars? Wouldn't YOU question teh validity of such claims? We learn though time and experince certain things, are possible, otehr things seemingly impossible, or extremely questionable, dubious. Do you have any idea how this would do what it claims, and be AUDIBLE? Wouldn't like large Kohler Toilets raise teh wires higher and be even more improved? Ceramic Kohler toilet lifts....With adj acoustic control, you adj the seat to where it sounds best. Really, how does lifting wires off a floor change anything, wheren't these things alos much more than $20 once....maybe they are a real bargain now?

bobedaone
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

I think you're onto something, Carl. If I had a toilet near my stereo, I might never leave. Do you think a mini fridge has any acoustic merit?

ohfourohnine
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

My choice of the word caustic, Carl, represented an effort to be kind. Some might describe your writing style as far worse. Cables, in my house, don't lay upon carpets made of artificial fibers. I don't know what happens anywhere else - your house for example. There are many - users not sellers of cable elevators - who have experienced sonic benefits from getting the cables off the rugs. One of my friends uses styrofoam cups to great advantage - so he says. I'm as willing to believe him as I am you. Why does that work for him? I don't know or care. I guess you're hopelessly addicted to scoffing at tweaks that you've never even tested. I don't know or care why that is either.

Jeff Wong
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

Ceramic teacups will do the trick as well. My friend Alvester and I tried this tweak in his carpeted audio room years ago, and the difference was noticeable and worthwhile. It might have something to do with static build up in the carpet affecting the insulation of the cables -- I can't say for sure why it worked, but it was repeatable and audible and free.

absolutepitch
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

Wouldn't the toilet make it sound like $#!+? Just kidding.

I have not tried lifting wires off the carpet, so can't offer any opinion. However, the concept does not immediately bring up any good scientific rationales for doing so. I have not heard any good explanations either. Then again, it's free, and easy to try.

If I had more time...

absolutepitch
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

Well, this one sounds like hocus-pocus to me. However, the capacitor and wire upgrades I did to my system did make a difference for the better. I had thought that was hocus-pocus at first, too. So I stopped making judgements too quickly.

You might try elevating the cables in your system using something very inexpensive, as others suggested (no, not the john). If you don't hear any improvement, then it does not work in your case. If you do, then you can investigate why and let us know what you find.

I once used inexpensive speaker/floor "cones"-erzatz to try out the concept. It worked so well that I never bought those expensive real cones. I also doubted this effect, until I tried it.

Elk
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

I've seen many theories: static charges (as Jeff noted), less impact on the dialectric, etc.

As coffee mugs, small bowls and other ceramic will do the same thing thing it certainly is worth a quick try. In fact, I am going to find time to give it a shot this weekend. I've got some friends with great ears that would enjoy the experiment.

CECE
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

Are teh cups filled or empty? Surely they can be fine tuned, the effects with the precise volume of some magic liquid...WOW, I think I just created another marketing delight for hucksters of such crap. you get this cable lifters, that you can tune to the proper effect with some magic fluid, that will of course have cryo treated stuff, propretory research etc etc etc. Tea cups of sound. Does your cup runeth over? Let us get a handle on your sound issues. Cups for sound, you can tune your wires to the sound you like best. Has to work as well as blocks of wood with bruned in names, and other assorted crap.

Elk
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

Have you tried it and given the result a serious listen? It's cheap, quick and easy.

The scientific method requires experimentation with an open mind. Rejecting everything one doesn't understand precludes scientific advancement. The history of science is full of dogmatic naysayers who never tried or experimented - they just loudly criticized. And they were wrong.

My testing is still pending because of a lack of time. But I am going to at least check out the possibility that putting my speakers cables on coffee mugs instead of the floor improves the sound. It will look silly however.

59mga
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?


Quote:
Are teh cups filled or empty?

Filled, half filled or empty it makes no difference. There is a resonance factor to consider. These devices must be solid - be it a wood block, ceramic or some kind of poly/resin material.

All one needs to do is properly ground the carpet, and themselves, to eliminate any static.

CECE
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

And if you approach it with an open and LOGICAL mind, which one gets the more one LEARNS..there is no logic to how it effects what you hear.....Every recording studio or live event I've ever been to or seen, cables all over the FLOOR! If it doesn't effect how teh recroding is MADE why would it have any effect on playback? More audio nonsense? Why not extrapolate it to VIDEO, can you SEE the effects....Audio lunacy. Keeping a mind too OPEN means it's EMPTY!!! Empty heads are easily filled with BS ....
Then there is always magic conenctors, every LIVE event i seen or at, Nuetrik Speakons everythere, they work, they meet certain codes, they work, they keep working..and teh wires attached are good ole' 12 guage or 10ga SO SOW or sometimes zip cord, if not on teh ground walked on....just as jumpers between cabinets, on teh floor hard use SO SOW etc types. Make sure you have the proper TEA CUPS, how do you know if the type of ceramic is the right kinds? so many variables, so much nonsense....the TEA CUP Wires!!! Made especially for putting on tea cups...make sure the handle is positioned properly, the handle could cause comb effect!!! Now we is back to that stuff

ohfourohnine
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

Quote: >>"If it doesn't effect how teh recroding is MADE why would it have any effect on playback? More audio nonsense?"

When that cup of tea is filled (made), one generally pours down the middle. Guess you'd insist on drinking from the middle in order to do it properly, right? What do the experts do, Carl? You always seem to know, and many of us count on you to inform us.

Poor Audiophile
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

How can a man possibly fly?! Come on, it's not logical!!
A horseless carriage? No way!! How many other things we now take for granted were once considered"impossible" or illogical?
I've read that after Edison invented the phonograph, he said he didn't think it had any commercial viability(though I don't think he said "impossible"). I'm going to try it using cups. I don't really think I'll hear a difference, but who knows?

jkalman
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

They look cool enough, though I doubt they do anything. I bet they would make excellent weapons if anyone tries to break into your listening room and steal things while you are inside using the room. In either case, they don't cost a hell of a lot. It isn't like some other completely ridiculous contraptions I've seen around for many $1000s of dollars with even crazier hocus-pocus pseudo-science involved in the marketing...

jkalman
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

Considering the price, I might order a couple just for the hell of it. I wonder if I can order them from somewhere custom painted to match my Benjamin Moore "New London Burgundy" room color...

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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

Man can't fly, but airplanes do..are you really that confused. And they get lift because of teh shape of teh wing, read up on it. Man cannot fly, he has a machine that does it though!!! Helicopters also have tilting blades, it's called aerodynamics....man does not fly, machines do. Horseless carriage? Yeah, that is called teh internal combustion engine, based on science, mechanical design again. Still doesn't answer how a tea cup has any effect, or teh floor for any reason effects an insulated piece of wire in something that is AUDIBLE.....who invented cable lifts? Who came up with the stunt, what marketing guru. They also sold pet rocks!! Did you get one of them too? Edison didn't see any commercial value, but maybe his other guys with him did, he also said DC was teh way to go.....what a big dope. Tesla was smarter, did Tesla beat Edison, on mnay things....including many other concepts, Tesla said it can't work, on DC, he was right wasn't he. Long distance transmission of DC won't work, that's why he said use AC....Sony says teh PS3 will sell, they are WRONG....ain't they. Tea cups don't effect anything like you think they do....If I tell you cat pee doesn't taste good, are you gonna try it anyway, or beleive me...nah, ya better try it...it's CHEAP...now go get that cat.....meow, drink fast, while it's still WARM.

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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

Of course ceramic cable risers work. The science behind them working is based in Psychology and not in the science of physics that DUP is using in his posts.
The psychology factor is huge and very real to all of us.
Marketing loves this fact.
So if a new type of rock produces no measurable change but you believe it sounds better, is it a bad thing? I mean this poor sap has made his stereo sound better to him while you and I DUP keep finding reasons why our stereo can't sound better because of those damn laws of physics and reason. Of course we still have our money.

Elk
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

I don't have a position on whether the cable risers work or not, but I am curious enough to try putting my cables on coffee cups or something similar to see if there is a difference.

So what "laws of physics" dictate that ceramic risers cannot possibly make any difference? Can you cite to a principle or theory which clearly provides that ceramic risers will make no difference? Or is your conclusion based only on your personal belief that it won't work?

They may very well not make any discernible difference, but if there is a scientific reason why they cannot I would sure like to know what it is.

CECE
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

Cus someone tried styrofoam cups, not ceramic cups, others use plastic triangles. So tea cups can't work. Tea cups are not being sold by some of these many great dealers in highend miracles. If these high end dealers ain't selling audio grade tea cups, it can't work. Try those plastic V's or from Mapleshadey some wood sticks, tied togeher, wood, they must know something, right, they are selling it and making the claims....enough science for ya? Wood, plastic, no tea cups, ceramic needs to be in teh shape used in hV applications which make more surface area, with those flanges if you look up to teh poles they are on, standard hV issue, those layers are. Tea cups not good. But if you use those plastic cable lifters, and you are trying to get it off of fiber carpets, which are moslty a plastic type material anyway, how does THAT help. If you use wood risers, and you claim the wood floor is baaaaaad for sound, why wood a wood riser change anything....how much wood wood it take to take all your money and sound better? Funny stuff, lift teh wires off teh floors.....yupper, sounds like a winner to me

Elk
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

So, in summary, your argument is that they don't work because you don't believe they can? This isn't science or even basic logic. This is just your personal prejudice on display.

They may not make a discernible difference in a given system but emotional bias against them doesn't disprove their potential effectiveness.

Moreover, there may be a reasonable scientific basis for the claim that they work. Consider how electric signals propagate:

Electric current produces a circular magnetic field surrounding and perpendicular to the surrounding the wire. That is, the electrical signal does not travel through the conductor itself but rather as waves of electromagnetic energy through the space and material around the wires. That is, the signal travels outside the surface of the metal conductor. This is why current can be measured by detecting the magnetic field associated with the current, without breaking the circuit.

The fact that current moves as a circular magnetic field is also why we do not want our signal carrying cables to run parallel to power cords. Power cords produce a strong field which can disturb the much smaller field surrounding signal interconnects and speaker cables.

Accordingly, it certainly is possible that placing the cables on insulating risers so that only air is surrounding the cables makes a difference in the way the electrical signal propagates. This would remove the effect the carpeting, wood and tile that the cables are placed have upon the propagation of these waves.

Consider also that the speed that these electromagnetic waves propagate. This speed is referred to as the velocity factor of the conductor. The velocity factor is a function of the dielectric constant surrounding the wire. That is, the speed is a function not of the wire material itself, but of the insulation surrounding the wire. Odd, huh?

Placing the cables on insulated riser will prevent the variations in the dielectric constant which occurs when the cables are resting, partially resting or not resting on the floor which is present in most cable setups. Perhaps this difference is one we can hear.

(As an aside, the dielectric constant is stated relative to a vacuum which is assigned the value of 1. From this rises the concept of a vacuum dielectric in interconnects.)

Again, I don't know whether we can hear these changes, but I am not willing to dismiss the possibility out of hand. Instead, I prefer to apply the scientific method and test the concept out myself rather than simply speculate that they don't work.

Of course, in the alternative, I could simply rant "they do to work!" and this would make it true.

cyclebrain
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

Damn, just like in school. The instructors saying that they can't accept just an answer, I have to show my work.
What are the components of my speaker cable?

Some resistance. Pure resistance will waste some power and could decrease the damping factor. No matter what I do around the outside of the wire will not change its resistance, except major temperature changes. Super cooled cables? For what some cost they could be.

It will have some capacitance. This is based on the relationship between the two conductors. Spacing and dielectric insulation between them. This value can change with tight bend radius or a crimped cable. But this value usually being in the pF/ft range put their reactance value in the 10's of meg ohms at audio frequencies. Insignificant relative to the amplifier source impeadance and the speaker load.

It will have a dielectric strength (insulation breakdown voltage). I certainly hope that we are not improving our sound by changing this value.

Then there is propagation rate. Generally in the nanosec/ft range. Important in phase matching and timing at GHz frequencies but at 20,000 Hz again even if cable risers change the propagation rate, because of the many orders of magnitude between the signal rate and the delay rate it is insignificant.

This next part is more difficult and is a pretty specialized field and I might not be totally accurate.
Actually the electrical current does flow through the conductor (yea, I know that's really true either, but good enough for this). There are two components to any electrical current, the E field and the H field. One being the electrical portion and the other being the magnetic field created by the electrical current. That's why inductive pickups and transformers work.
At this point the math is beyond my knowledge but unless there is a change caused by some magnetic coupling of another signal, moving the cable around would make no difference here either. Electromagnetic coupling of the nails in a wood floor? Rebar in a concrete floor? No.
And I will not provide the proof of it either.

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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

It's audio freqs, not RF. The voltages involved are so low, the current so low, you are trying to apply some ideas to high powered high freqs, which are irrelavant. So having some wire on a wood floor or tile or carpet all of which are non conductive. You have been reading too many markeitng BS from cable hucksters. This is low powered audio applications, ain't no propogating waves or high magnetic fields, put a volt meter on your speaker termains tell me how much volts you is dealing with, minimal, put a clamp on ampmeter on one wire see how little curretn you is talking bout, ain't now big liens of magnetic fields anywhere doing anything. How do you klnow the cups are of teh correct material, just because you beleive they are, what kind of science is that. Logic, yupper, my logic from experiences, tell me, it don't make no difference. Will you drink cat pee? Why not, just cus you beleive it ain't no good, have you tried it? What kind of science is that, based on other peoples telling you it is no good? Sometimes logic and thinking negates time wasting trys of nonsense. Last live event they had wires all over teh floor, sounded great!!! Soem QSC Pa stuff, stacks and stacks o' Crown amps, outside, so there was no room effects, no boundries, live baby. Wires all over teh place, some good heavy duty So cord into Speakon connectors into all teh QSC speakers, I tend to look at that stuff, nothing magical, just good logical electrical wiring, that's what's it's all about. Tea cups are for tea, not listening too. Nothing ceramic comes between my wood floor and my wires. Wood sounds best, liek a fine LP gibson, WOOD.

cyclebrain
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?


Quote:
It's audio freqs, not RF. The voltages involved are so low, the current so low, you are trying to apply some ideas to high powered high freqs, which are irrelavant. So having some wire on a wood floor or tile or carpet all of which are non conductive. You have been reading too many markeitng BS from cable hucksters. This is low powered audio applications, ain't no propogating waves or high magnetic fields, put a volt meter on your speaker termains tell me how much volts you is dealing with, minimal, put a clamp on ampmeter on one wire see how little curretn you is talking bout, ain't now big liens of magnetic fields anywhere doing anything. How do you klnow the cups are of teh correct material, just because you beleive they are, what kind of science is that. Logic, yupper, my logic from experiences, tell me, it don't make no difference. Will you drink cat pee? Why not, just cus you beleive it ain't no good, have you tried it? What kind of science is that, based on other peoples telling you it is no good? Sometimes logic and thinking negates time wasting trys of nonsense. Last live event they had wires all over teh floor, sounded great!!! Soem QSC Pa stuff, stacks and stacks o' Crown amps, outside, so there was no room effects, no boundries, live baby. Wires all over teh place, some good heavy duty So cord into Speakon connectors into all teh QSC speakers, I tend to look at that stuff, nothing magical, just good logical electrical wiring, that's what's it's all about. Tea cups are for tea, not listening too. Nothing ceramic comes between my wood floor and my wires. Wood sounds best, liek a fine LP gibson, WOOD.

You mean that 20KHz or even 40KHz does not qualify as high frequencies? Where I work we would consider that as D.C. (except when dealing with a DC power supply).
Usually it is not the level of the voltages and currents that are important, but the ratio of them relative to the other unwanted signal levels. When these differences are in values of factors in the 1000s common sense tells me that I can ignore it.
By the way has anybody else noticed that styrofoam cups just don't sound the same since they removed CFCs from them? Does anybody have a source for the "good cups"?
Maybe from Mexico.

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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?


Quote:
You mean that 20KHz or even 40KHz does not qualify as high frequencies? Where I work we would consider that as D.C.


A fun observation. Truly high frequencies do even more bizarre things than audio frequencies. Waveguides for microwaves are absolutely fascinating for example. Weird stuff.

While what you have posted is correct, but your conclusion is still based on the assumption that the differences which will exist when lifting cables will be inaudible. You may very well be correct, but it remains an assumption. Given that in this hobby we are often seeking the last final bit of improvement I find it better to try than to assume.

Additionally, they are many things that we have been able to hear but did not know for quite some time how to measure. Consider the spec wars of the '70's and the eventual realization that TIM was causing brittle sound, even though THD and IM were vanishingly low. SS amps of the period should have sounded better and better given their better specs- but they kept sounding worse. We were relying on the assumption that low THD and IM was what mattered. We were wrong.

Now to find some time to seriously test out the concept. I readily admit that it appears truly silly, but it is fun to try out even silly ideas.

jkalman
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?


Quote:

Quote:
You mean that 20KHz or even 40KHz does not qualify as high frequencies? Where I work we would consider that as D.C.


A fun observation. Truly high frequencies do even more bizarre things than audio frequencies. Waveguides for microwaves are absolutely fascinating for example. Weird stuff.

While what you have posted is correct, but your conclusion is still based on the assumption that the differences which will exist when lifting cables will be inaudible. You may very well be correct, but it remains an assumption. Given that in this hobby we are often seeking the last final bit of improvement I find it better to try than to assume.

Additionally, they are many things that we have been able to hear but did not know for quite some time how to measure. Consider the spec wars of the '70's and the eventual realization that TIM was causing brittle sound, even though THD and IM were vanishingly low. SS amps of the period should have sounded better and better given their better specs- but they kept sounding worse. We were relying on the assumption that low THD and IM was what mattered. We were wrong.

Now to find some time to seriously test out the concept. I readily admit that it appears truly silly, but it is fun to try out even silly ideas.

While I appreciate that your argument might be endearing you to a significant portion of the Stereophile Community, I think everyone is better off just enjoying their systems without all the neurotic, obsessive-compulsive worrying that seems to allow some of these really odd tweaks to prosper.

That being said, I found that my tweaks work much better than these ceramic teacups. I wash my hands three times, snap my fingers four times, wipe each pinky finger on my pant leg in exactly the same spots on both legs, and then I walk around my listening position 8 times (exactly 8 times, no more, no less) before sitting down and turning on the music with a rubber glove. The music has never sounded better....

Try it some time.

Elk
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

Hi, Jeff!

This entire hobby is about neurotic, obsessive-compulsive behaviors; just consider your wonderful dedicated listening room and your efforts to get your speakers placed just right. But your efforts will be well rewarded!

My only only point is that one should not reject a potential improvement merely because one doesn't understand it, especially a cheap tweak. The behaviors of electricity and sound are often hard to fathom and difficult to accept intellectually. Today's oddball tweak can become tomorrow's accepted wisdom.

Given the simplicity of low cost of insulated cable risers I think they are worth a try. If they improve the sound why not do it?

I think of this in the same category as cable dressing. One wouldn't think that making sure that interconnects, cables and power cords running close and parallel to each other could have such a detrimental effect, but it does. Hard to accept intellectually perhaps, but true.

This thread isn't going to go any further however. In this sense you are correct. Time to let the discussion die.

I do however need to know what you wash your hands with and whether it matters if you are wearing trouser or shorts.

jkalman
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?


Quote:
Hi, Jeff!

This entire hobby is about neurotic, obsessive-compulsive behaviors; just consider your wonderful dedicated listening room and your efforts to get your speakers placed just right. But your efforts will be well rewarded!

My only only point is that one should not reject a potential improvement merely because one doesn't understand it, especially a cheap tweak. The behaviors of electricity and sound are often hard to fathom and difficult to accept intellectually. Today's oddball tweak can become tomorrow's accepted wisdom.

Given the simplicity of low cost of insulated cable risers I think they are worth a try. If they improve the sound why not do it?

I think of this in the same category as cable dressing. One wouldn't think that making sure that interconnects, cables and power cords running close and parallel to each other could have such a detrimental effect, but it does. Hard to accept intellectually perhaps, but true.

This thread isn't going to go any further however. In this sense you are correct. Time to let the discussion die.

I do however need to know what you wash your hands with and whether it matters if you are wearing trouser or shorts.

I think the major difference is that an acoustically treated room, and moving speakers around the room, have very clear measurable effects on the sound. It isn't some unprovable idea beyond the complexities of modern science.

Also, I am not obsessing over the room or the speaker positions, or anything else concerning my setup. I bought my speakers, the dealer flew out to voice them and it is done with. I don't spend my time worrying, I spend my time with my family, and occasionally have friends over to watch movies. Any spare time I get, I do go downstairs and listen to music. Perhaps my own research into why Rives designed the room the way he did and talking with him on the phone helped me to feel comfortable with his acoustical engineering acumen. I've really got nothing to obsess about unless I choose to find problems that don't exist and worry about them.

I also don't obsess about insignificant details that aren't provable. I take measurements of my system (lately for Rives to analyze), and then I make changes that will have a measurable impact on the sound. It is pretty clear cut at this point compared to the actual building of the room.

I admit though, during the building of the room I was obsessive about the construction because I was general contracting my own workers (even this was for measurable effect on the sound). If I wasn't very specific and didn't keep my eyes on what they did day by day, they tried to do really silly things instead of following the instructions.... Face it, if people decide to "fly by night" and start using materials they aren't supposed to in the bass traps, such as drywall instead of Homasote (that really happened at one point), it may affect the properties of the bass traps in a negative way.

I think there is a clear cut difference between an aficionado and someone who has OCD (not that one can't be both). One is willing to spend whatever it takes to make the music sound provably better, the other gets lost in the rituals of trying to make it sound better despite any reasoning or proof that they are doing such. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I don't have OCD qualities, I just focus them on forum posting instead of on HiFi. One can be a music and HiFi aficionado (one can enjoy this hobby) without behaving neurotic and obsessive-compulsive, IMO. To believe otherwise is to encourage people to try and emulate that kind of behavior in order to think it is the only way to fit into this community. That isn't a very good thing IMO. It also perpetuates a wackiness that I would rather not be associated with personally; a feeling I would wager that a lot of "non-audiohpile" people experience when introduced into this community, perhaps finding themselves more repelled by the behaviors in the community than interested in exploring it further for the sake of better quality audio.

As far as cable dressings, anyone who knows about EMF and other electrical issues wouldn't consider it hard to accept intellectually. This is something that has been proven by science. I actually use a balanced setup (all Ayre equipment) so I don't have to worry about those kinds of issues except from the amp to the speakers. This was also something done to cables after EMF effects, etc, were proven by science. It wasn't like people were shielding cables because they heard something inherently wrong with the signal, consequently tried shielding it for no particular reason and then found that the sound issues magically went away. They may have heard it first, but then they actually confirmed that corrupted signals were actually occurring through measurements, researched why it was happening, and then found ways to solve the problem. So this is really a poor example IMO.

People can do what they want, and they will do what they want (including obsessing over things that don't make any significant difference in their system), it would just benefit them to let go of those trivial worries and enjoy the music. It just isn't healthy to worry about such trifles, and it defeats the purpose of owning nice equipment, i.e. to listen to music. I guess it also benefits a whole industry of entrepreneurs who are willing to exploit susceptible people's fears that their systems aren't good enough (that is another issue in and of itself, and sort of ethically/morally pathetic IMO). They often espouse strange and magical arguments for why their devices work, and even more fantastical arguments for why we should believe them and not science. I just think it is unhealthy for everyone involved.

As far as washing my hands, well I use antibacterial soap. For pants, mostly blue jeans.

Poor Audiophile
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?


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Hi, Jeff!

My only only point is that one should not reject a potential improvement merely because one doesn't understand it, especially a cheap tweak. The behaviors of electricity and sound are often hard to fathom and difficult to accept intellectually. Today's oddball tweak can become tomorrow's accepted wisdom.

Thanks! This is what I was trying to say,(you said it better) but some folks like to think they outsmart others; big egos!!

ohfourohnine
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

What a shame, Jeff. Like the cow who gives a good pail of milk and then kicks it over, you make the argument for enjoying the music rather than listening critically for the efficacy of a given tweak, and then drive away even those who agree with a display of insufferable arrogance.

jkalman
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?


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What a shame, Jeff. Like the cow who gives a good pail of milk and then kicks it over, you make the argument for enjoying the music rather than listening critically for the efficacy of a given tweak, and then drive away even those who agree with a display of insufferable arrogance.

There there now, do you feel better about yourself? You must be more creative than having to appeal to bullying me... Perhaps being more explicit would help your cause, or I suppose that would be inviting discourse and you prefer taking potshots (perhaps you are aptly named).

I guess if you find it easier to attack me for expressing my point of view, rather than the argument itself, I should be grateful you even bothered to respond.

jkalman
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

Just to show I have an open mind, here was my experiment with ceramic bowls and cups (I'm sure you can all guess the results by my last few posts):

jkalman
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

Assuming the balanced cables would get rid of whatever magical artifacts might be caused by the carpet, then these should work. I'll do one more with the balanced cables elevated as well later, just in case they are being influenced somehow, when I get the opportunity.

ohfourohnine
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

Of course I agree with the argument that listening for the enjoyment of the music beats critical listening for any purpose. I've stated just that repeatedly over the years in various exchanges here. It's your self-aggrandizing bullcrap that puts me off. Read your last reply to Elk over and see how you'd have reacted to it if it had been written by someone else.

How did that old saying go, "What a gift the gifties gie us to see ourselves as others see us"? Something like that I think - close enough anyway.

Attack? Bullying? Not even close. Just a little friendly advice, presumptuous certainly, but friendly none the less.

Enjoy your new speakers,

jkalman
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

I spent the last 15 minutes experimenting with the balanced cables elevated as well. So far nothing. I'm willing to keep trying for a little while when I listen to music just to be certain though.

jkalman
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?


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Of course I agree with the argument that listening for the enjoyment of the music beats critical listening for any purpose. I've stated just that repeatedly over the years in various exchanges here. It's your self-aggrandizing bullcrap that puts me off. Read your last reply to Elk over and see how you'd have reacted to it if it had been written by someone else.

How did that old saying go, "What a gift the gifties gie us to see ourselves as others see us"? Something like that I think - close enough anyway.

Attack? Bullying? Not even close. Just a little friendly advice, presumptuous certainly, but friendly none the less.

Enjoy your new speakers,

Perhaps you would benefit from taking your own advice more and giving less of it to others. That's just a little friendly advice from me to you (presumptuous certainly...).

Have a nice day!

ohfourohnine
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

Absolutely correct! With just a little help, you seem to be catching on. Good Show!

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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

I am looking at the RANE pro audio reference..great book, get it, and learn reality!! Great line on page 274 In spite of all the hysterical audiophile hi-fi (and lately pro-audio) press to teh contrary. This pseudo-science babble is nothing more than a (quite successful) disinformation campaign designed to separate a largely uninformed, and gulliable consumer base from it's discretionary income. "(I've become convinced there is absolutley NOTHING audiophiles will not beleive.) Madison Ave at it's worst All under teh guise of "informed experts". The only thingthese people are informed experts on, is how to take your money.

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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

I'm a little tea cup watch me tip....blue is not teh right color, no wonder you ain't heard anyhing. Don't you know nutin'? Blue cups (bowls) on purple rugs!!! Essssssh. Where is your head dude. And you have teh wrong loop in teh wires, and those other wires in back on teh floor negate it all. Eeeeeeesssssshhhh. The size of teh cups are also wrong. ain't you studied teacup audio at all. you just guessing, or what? This has all been proven years ago, Homer and Jethro Audio labs.....they PROVED....with the right cups (filled with the proper magic elixar) will always affect teh sound. They had 80 proof at least ...see, there's teh PROOF.

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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

Did you say OPEN midn or EMPTY mind? What won't you try? I have a few ideas that might really wurk. First......take out your checkbook....at the "pay to" write CASH...ok so far...I'll give you a P.O. box number to send it too OK? Think of it as an experiment using your empty, sorry I mean open mind in how far money flys out of your accounts. You don't beleive money can fly, oh but it does dude, let's prove it!!!!!!!

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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?


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Did you say OPEN midn or EMPTY mind? What won't you try? I have a few ideas that might really wurk. First......take out your checkbook....at the "pay to" write CASH...ok so far...I'll give you a P.O. box number to send it too OK? Think of it as an experiment using your empty, sorry I mean open mind in how far money flys out of your accounts. You don't beleive money can fly, oh but it does dude, let's prove it!!!!!!!

Well, I figured I should at least check it out, just in case it does do something audible.

I already know it has no scientific merit whatsoever, and despite how some people like to portray our current world scientific knowledge as still being in the dark ages for the intents of making this tweak (and others) seem reasonable, or even slightly possible, our scientific progress is well beyond the level where a tweak like this has even a remote possibility of doing something we can't detect with some form of equipment...

Anyway, people are going to believe "the end of the world is coming" whether or not there is any logic to it. Some people are just worriers, and I suppose this is a better tweak to focus their energy on than a $3000, 1" platinum bowl nailed to a tiny piece of wood. I mean, at least this is a cheap distraction from an irrational worry, instead of an insanely expensive one.

Jeff Wong
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

Jeff - I commend you for at least giving it a try. I do have a question or two for you. In your system, are you easily able to discern changes in recordings when you invert polarity? Because I suspect the tweak is dielectric related, the possible improvement may have to do with phase shift and time smearing, something I've discovered is easier to detect with speakers that use 1st order crossovers. As I recall, the Wilson speakers use drivers of mixed polarity; this subtle tweak may not be evident in systems not using time/phase coherent speakers. The system where I heard the difference using tea cups had Thiels, with 1st order crossovers. This is just a thought that occurred to me that might account for not being able to hear the changes in different systems. Quite often, some systems will not reveal inverted polarity on recordings because their drivers and speakers mask the cues.

P.S. I doubt that coil of cable in the last pic is good for sound: you're creating an inductor, no?

Elk
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?


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I suppose this is a better tweak to focus their energy on than a $3000, 1" platinum bowl nailed to a tiny piece of wood. I mean, at least this is a cheap distraction from an irrational worry, instead of an insanely expensive one.

I want to at least see one of these platinum bowls!

I hope no one is actually "worried" about whether any tweak works. It should be fun to try out these bits of nonsense. If one is obsessed with them there are other issues at play.

I like the pictures of the bowls and the coordination of colors for each channel.

I've played with elevating my speaker cables as you have - no difference so far. I don't really expect a difference and, if there is, I expect it to be very subtle. I know some reviewers hear a difference. I don't think I am going to.

I've never been able to hear a difference changing absolute polarity either, and I have speakers with first-order crossovers if this indeed does make a difference. While I have trouble accepting that the starting polarity of the wave form makes a perceptible difference in reproduced sound I have tried this experiment also.

After all it's a hobby. It's supposed to waste time and money.

jkalman
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?


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want to at least see one of these platinum bowls!

I was off on the price. They are around $2300 USD each for the platinum ones. Here is a link (there are two reviews out there as well - one on 6moons...).

Elk
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

Cute!

This reminds me of the Shakti Hallograph Sound Field Optimizer. I can't imagine how they could possibly make any difference but many state that they do.

jkalman
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?


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Cute!

This reminds me of the Shakti Hallograph Sound Field Optimizer. I can't imagine how they could possibly make any difference but many state that they do.

If you think that is a hoot, you should google their patent.

Jeff Wong
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

There's nothing surprising about the cups and Shakti device, which appear to be not much more than tone controls that resonate at pleasing frequencies along with the music, not unlike Sam Tellig's $1.20 coin tweak, which does produce an audible and appealing difference. I find the $1.20 tweak additive and therefore undesirable in my own system. My recording engineer friend continues to use the tweak in his set up after I showed it to him. He removed the coins at one point, but, couldn't stand to listen to his monitors without them, and has used the $1.20 enhancement continuously for the last several years.

CECE
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?

The word is, there isn't anything an audiophile WON'T beleive. http://www.acousticdreams.net/AcousticSystemResonatorsSixSteps6.htm

smejias
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?


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The word is, there isn't anything an audiophile WON'T beleive.

Most audiophiles don't believe you, DUP.

Heh heh.

jkalman
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Re: How is this possible to do what is claimed?


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P.S. I doubt that coil of cable in the last pic is good for sound: you're creating an inductor, no?

I missed your post earlier somehow. Sorry about that.

One wire crossing another one once hardly qualifies as an inductor, especially if it is only once and not even a full coil. I'll do some experiments with that as well and see if it makes any audible difference, since it is relatively easily done.

I could hear reversed polarity on my last speakers, I don't plan on intentionally running those kinds of experiments with these new speakers. The topic isn't more than a passing amusement for me. Someone will always dream up a reason why the next greatest tweak MUST work and why someone else's system or ears are not capable of hearing it working, despite any scientific logic. I don't plan on dedicating my life to dispelling that illusion like many people on other fora seem to do. I'd rather spend that time listening to my system the way it is, or going out and demoing new speakers for entertainment. If I started exploring every reason people come up with for why it doesn't work in my system, I'll never have time to simply enjoy my system IMO. When they prove it has scientific merit, I'll be the first to buy one. Until then, I'll remain skeptical.

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